The-Hogs.net - Washington Football Discussion, Redskins to Commanders Era

The most important thing is not whether this FO can find a QB or what they did in the past

THE MOST IMPORTANT FACT IS that this FO IS here and WILL BE making the choices for this franchise as regards free agents and the draft

what this FO did in the past does not matter AT ALL - they will be judged ONLY on what they do from now on

This FO knows that they are working for Snyder and that they have to keep making progress

this FO has done well and will continue to add players

we are very close to competing for a playoff spot and that is amazing when you consider how bad we were coming out of 2009

Kilmer72 wrote:
Thanks Ray for the stats, this just points out what we really know. I think Shan is a decent coach but not all that. Take away Elway and well...

It is what it is, and I think this guy is good enough to build a half decent team but not a SB team unless, everyone else is just that bad. That doesn't mean that I am saying fire him just saying that he is sort of like Marty. I am happy that he is organized. I am happy that he can find some talent. I just feel that it is going to take a long time before we see Redskins in a Super Bowl. If we get lucky and draft a really good QB or find one in FA then things might be different. I got my fingers crossed.

Thanks. I tell ya, what is rather illuminating is Mike Shanahan's record as a HC without John Elway, and the picture ain't pretty at all.

Take away Elway, and Shanahan's record is poor ... he's won 1 playoff game, and is 14 games under 500 combined between the Raiders, Broncos and Redskins. That's terrible. What's worse, he's 1 game worse than Jim Zorn was after 2 seasons. What? Say it ain't so! Fact. Nobody seems to want to consider that, while they cheered Zorn's departure, considering him a big fat joke. The reality is, Zorn really did inherit a mess and a no win situation. But people seem to want to enshrine Shanahan here as some genius savior for being 10 games under 500 in two seasons? It makes no sense to me at all. Especially this business of how we're making progress. Really? So finishing this season one game worse than last year ... in a division that saw all of our division rivals play rather poorly most of the season ... that's progress? One more year of under 500 play, and Shanahan will become an unmitigated disaster ... I don't care what his last name is ... it will be "Mike the Disaster".

It drives me crazy when people start talking about Shanahan as if he were some equivalent to Joe Gibbs ...... he's not even in the same ball park.

Can he be successful? History says yes, IF he's got a great QB. Without the great QB ... history says no way Jose'.

That's why it is critical that the Redskins attain the services of a fine QB, at what ever the cost. Who should freaking care about a couple of draft picks if the savings show up in more mediocre so so results?

I tell you ... those that think like this would change their tune if they were shelling out 100+ Million a year in player salaries out of their pockets to wind up 5-11.

I agree but I will say I think before he gets fired he will build a foundation that the next coach can work with. I also think that he does have an eye for certain talent but, not the kind that will bring us over the hump. We really aren't that bad off with him. He will get us younger and the next guy will put it all together. I still hope though. We could do a lot worse.

Kilmer72 wrote:I agree but I will say I think before he gets fired he will build a foundation that the next coach can work with. I also think that he does have an eye for certain talent but, not the kind that will bring us over the hump. We really aren't that bad off with him. He will get us younger and the next guy will put it all together. I still hope though. We could do a lot worse.

Oh, I will also say I am praying for RG3. If by some miracle we get him some coach of the future will adapt to him I hope. I really hope we have a franchise QB soon, even if it takes a while for him to develop.

Kilmer72 wrote:

Kilmer72 wrote:I agree but I will say I think before he gets fired he will build a foundation that the next coach can work with. I also think that he does have an eye for certain talent but, not the kind that will bring us over the hump. We really aren't that bad off with him. He will get us younger and the next guy will put it all together. I still hope though. We could do a lot worse.

Oh, I will also say I am praying for RG3. If by some miracle we get him some coach of the future will adapt to him I hope. I really hope we have a franchise QB soon, even if it takes a while for him to develop.

Either Luck or RG3 would be as safe a gamble as there is ... among the other guys, there could be a diamond in the rough, but I don't think we can take that gamble, because it would represent a severe setback if the guy doesn't pan out ... two years later we'd be in the same spot we are right now.

Of course that could happen anyway, even with Luck or RG3 ... but let's face it, if you go all in with three aces, no one is going to blame you if the other guy beat you with a flush. But if you bet your whole bank on a pair of 5's, you're going to be an idiot when you lose. It's as simple as that.

Personally, I'd go get one of those two, and also do as much as possible to sign Flynn as insurance. If you can get Flynn, cut both Beck and Rex ...neither one is the answer here ... but I'd keep Rex if Flynn signs elsewhere, and we just draft a QB.

RayNAustin wrote:That's why it is critical that the Redskins attain the services of a fine QB, at what ever the cost. Who should freaking care about a couple of draft picks if the savings show up in more mediocre so so results?

This is the point I've been trying to make the last couple of weeks. The time to strike is now. If we continue to wait, we will suffer for it in the long run.

Redskins fan live in the past way too much. I don't care what Mike did in the 90's... It's 2000 freaking 12 for goodness sakes! I don't give a flying you-know-what about the 80's, Gibbs, The Hogs, or The Diesel. I appreciate what was done in the past, I appreciate the effort but by no means does it matter today IMO. If what Gibbs did in the 80's mattered, he would have won rings during his second stint here. In the same way, for better or worse Mikes stint in Denver doesn't matter.


What matters is the progress that's being made NOW. And right NOW, this team, this franchise is making huge strides. And if he doesn't win a ring, but makes the team consistently competitive that's a success story. This ENTIRE FRANCHISE was the poo residue adhering to the porcelain in ur toilet after you flush... That is what Mike had to work with. So let's get off of this high horse like he was handed a golden ticket. This place was garbage.

+1 - well said Chris

the NFL today and in the last couple of years has changed - The defenses and the offenses have evolved SIGNIFICANTLY

I agree that we need to be better offensively AND that we FOR SURE need a good QB to be here for 10-12 years

HOPEFULLY this FO continues to find the players that will continue the progress we have made

We will get a QB but we cannot "make that happen" - THAT IS NOT POSSIBLE

we should NOT DO what Snyder & Cerrato would have done and "do whatever it costs or takes" to bring in a QB

IF RGIII is available AND we have not, somehow managed, to trade down AND this FO wants him, we will draft him




To the FO - "thanks for what has been done here since December, 2009 - KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK"

IF this franchise trades up in this draft we will all know that Snyder is involved again

that is not a good sign for this franchise or for Mike

Chris Luva Luva wrote:Redskins fan live in the past way too much. I don't care what Mike did in the 90's... It's 2000 freaking 12 for goodness sakes! I don't give a flying you-know-what about the 80's, Gibbs, The Hogs, or The Diesel. I appreciate what was done in the past, I appreciate the effort but by no means does it matter today IMO. If what Gibbs did in the 80's mattered, he would have won rings during his second stint here. In the same way, for better or worse Mikes stint in Denver doesn't matter.


What matters is the progress that's being made NOW. And right NOW, this team, this franchise is making huge strides. And if he doesn't win a ring, but makes the team consistently competitive that's a success story. This ENTIRE FRANCHISE was the poo residue adhering to the porcelain in ur toilet after you flush... That is what Mike had to work with. So let's get off of this high horse like he was handed a golden ticket. This place was garbage.

Love it. +1.

Whether or not Shanahan is a truly great coach or whatever, I think we're going to find his efforts to turn the Redskins into a smart, professional football team will be invaluable. To me, he is doing the same work that Marty started but was fired because of Snyder's impatience and ignorance. Both of those coaches have decades of experience under their belt and know what it takes to run a truly winning organization.

It may turn out that Shanny runs out of time to field a winner here himself. But I think he and the Redskins are laying the proper foundation so that we can be successful in the near future.

^^ - the good news is that Mike's almost certainly going to get another year here

I understand where Ray and others are coming from
HOWEVER - we're going to be much better here this season or Mike will be gone



we might or might not get a future great QB in here in the next 6 months

WITH OR WITHOUT a future great QB - we will be better 1 year from now or Mike will be gone

AND whomever comes in to replace him will have a franchise that is in MUCH BETTER shape than when Mike came in

Chris Luva Luva wrote: If what Gibbs did in the 80's mattered, he would have won rings during his second stint here. In the same way, for better or worse Mikes stint in Denver doesn't matter.

What a load of house crap!

In the 20 seasons since the Skins last won a SB they have made the playoffs 4 times out of those 20 and Gibbs was the coach of 3 of those runs! Sure one time was his last year of his first stint, but that still leaves one playoff appearance in 16 seasons for six coaches. Gibbs went three times in five seasons or two out of four if you don't want to count three last year of Gibbs 1.0.

Because Gibbs didn't win a SB in four seasons doesn't mean what he was doing wouldn't have worked. It was obviously working better than the other six coaches! Our at least that is what the cold hard facts say.

Guess what; Bill Cower and Tony Dungy didn't win a SB the first four years they coached their teams either. And for Dungy, that was true for both of his teams.

Bill Bellichick(sp?) Didn't win in his first four years as a HC and neither did Tom Cauglin.

So what you said about what Gibbs did in the 80's doesn't apply to what is going on now because Gibbs 2.0 didn't win a SB is just a moronic statement!

Sure the NFL has changed since the 80's, but not so much idiot fans think! You still have to play defense, you ayl have to be able to run the ball enough to keep defenses honest, and you still have to have a QB that is paying at a high level.

All of that is true now and it was true during Gibbs 1.0. It was true for Vince Lombardi, it was true for Bill Walsh, and it is true now.

By the way, I truly believe Lombardi would dominate football today, just as he did 50 years ago. Football has changed, but not enough to matter!

chris-luva-luva wrote: And if he doesn't win a ring, but makes the team consistently competitive that's a success story. This ENTIRE FRANCHISE was the poo residue adhering to the porcelain in ur toilet after you flush... That is what Mike had to work with. So let's get off of this high horse like he was handed a golden ticket. This place was garbage.

Agreed.

He had a HoF QB the first time changed 18 out of 22 starters and added 42 new players to the team he got from Wade Phillips and got Elway to a place he had never been before (twice). And to make it even more impressive, Elway was a shadow of his former self when he finally won the SB.

skinsfan#33 wrote:So what you said about what Gibbs did in the 80's doesn't apply to what is going on now because Gibbs 2.0 didn't win a SB is just a moronic statement!

You're taking this Gibbs stuff too personally. All I'm saying is that his accomplishments in the 80's did not equate to success in the 2000's. I'm also saying that Mikes success's and failures (personel) may or may not carry over to this team. I don't care what he did back then, cus it's not helping us now.

skinsfan#33 wrote:Because Gibbs didn't win a SB in four seasons doesn't mean what he was doing wouldn't have worked. It was obviously working better than the other six coaches! Our at least that is what the cold hard facts say.

skinsfan#33 wrote:Guess what; Bill Cower and Tony Dungy didn't win a SB the first four years they coached their teams either. And for Dungy, that was true for both of his teams.

Bill Bellichick(sp?) Didn't win in his first four years as a HC and neither did Tom Cauglin.

Gibbs2.0 was destined for failure and it was a failure. It was a failure because the root of the problem remained. Vinny and Dan... Gibbs was too high on Danny juice and telling us how great of an owner he was to be able to truly set this franchise right. Granted, his arrival started things in the right direction but it would have never really worked. It took the complete utter failure of Zorn to get Danny and Vinny out of here.

This has nothing to do with his coaching, or him as a man. But his reluctance to tell Danny that his ways were flawed, or his beliefs in that Danny was doing the right things held this team back from the revolution it needed.

Chris Luva Luva wrote:

skinsfan#33 wrote:So what you said about what Gibbs did in the 80's doesn't apply to what is going on now because Gibbs 2.0 didn't win a SB is just a moronic statement!

You're taking this Gibbs stuff too personally. All I'm saying is that his accomplishments in the 80's did not equate to success in the 2000's. I'm also saying that Mikes success's and failures (personel) may or may not carry over to this team. I don't care what he did back then, cus it's not helping us now.[/quote}]

No problem. I have a problem with fans and the media saying "the game passed him bye" because that was total BS and saying his second term was a failure.

Chris Luva Luva wrote:
Gibbs2.0 was destined for failure and it was a failure.

Completely disagree!

A 50% playoff appearance rate a compared to the 6% rate on either side of Gibbs 2.0 isn't a failure to me, but I guess that is just me!

Chris Luva Luva wrote:It was a failure because the root of the problem remained. Vinny and Dan... Gibbs was too high on Danny juice and telling us how great of an owner he was to be able to truly set this franchise right. Granted, his arrival started things in the right direction but it would have never really worked. It took the complete utter failure of Zorn to get Danny and Vinny out of here.

I somewhat agree with this, but I truely beleive the only reason Gibbs 2.0 was doomed to failure was his age and his priorities in that stage in his life.

If he had stayed any length of time (say 8-10 yeaars) he would have ended up asking (and getting a true GM - which we still don't really have). He went out and hired Al Saunders tell help him with offense (mistake if you ask me), and that showed he was willing to swallow his pride and ask for help where needed.

Chris Luva Luva wrote:
This has nothing to do with his coaching, or him as a man. But his reluctance to tell Danny that his ways were flawed, or his beliefs in that Danny was doing the right things held this team back from the revolution it needed.

This is an assumption, just like what I stated above is. No telling which one of us is right.

What I really wanted to point out( but neglected to) was that Gibbs 2.0 was less than successful mostly due to his two choices at QB. The Brunell choice hurt this team more than anything else. The selection of JC was another failure that hurt this franchise just as much as anything Vinny or Danny has done.

Now MS is facing the same fork in the road! He has to get the QB possiton right or it doesn't matter how good he makes the rest of the team! Sure improving every other spots will make the team competitive, but it won't be consitstantly competive.

Just like Gibbs 1.0, whenever MS had good QB play his teams were competitive. Had Gibbs had a franchise QB, either time, his teams would have been much more successful! The same for MS.

skinsfan#33 wrote:No problem. I have a problem with fans and the media saying "the game passed him bye" because that was total BS and saying his second term was a failure.

Ok look, maybe I did a bad job of explaining what I meant. He is not a failure.... Ok. But what I'm saying is, his tenure was doomed from the start because the foundation was flawed. The scouting, the drafting, the trading, the signings, were ALL FLAWED. Outside of him and his abilities. His constant praise and love for Dan did not HELP.

Joe the coach is amazing.

skinsfan#33 wrote:A 50% playoff appearance rate a compared to the 6% rate on either side of Gibbs 2.0 isn't a failure to me, but I guess that is just me!

I agree. But the lack of consistency stems from my points above. Think about if he had a good GM and foundation from which to coach from. He may have made the playoffs more often.

skinsfan#33 wrote:If he had stayed any length of time (say 8-10 yeaars) he would have ended up asking (and getting a true GM - which we still don't really have). He went out and hired Al Saunders tell help him with offense (mistake if you ask me), and that showed he was willing to swallow his pride and ask for help where needed.

I disagree. He praised Dan too much. He didn't see anything wrong with having Dan at his side and helping. That is flawed. It was the problem!


I don't really disagree with much of what you're saying. I think I failed at truly explaining what I meant. Gibbs 2.0 helped immensely and was a light at the end of the tunnel. I think it sparked something in Snyder and he got it right with Mike and Bruce. However, there were some flaws. But it was a starting point.

SkinsJock wrote:IF this franchise trades up in this draft we will all know that Snyder is involved again

That's a ridiculous statement.

Deadskins wrote:

SkinsJock wrote:IF this franchise trades up in this draft we will all know that Snyder is involved again

That's a ridiculous statement.

I've felt the same about your posts on what might happen in this draft

Chris was only pointing out that what happened in Denver has nothing to do with what is going on here

Gibbs was a helluva HC with a great group behind him in Cassely and Beathard - when he came back his FO was Snyder & Cerrato

He should have recognized that Dumb & Dumber were not going to give him a chance to do what he did so well

Mike & Bruce are getting things back in order here and have positioned this club well

we need to stick with the plan and not fall into the trap of trading away high draft picks like Snyder would do

We need Dan Snyder to stay away from offering advice about how to draft or acquire players - we have seen that nightmare

SkinsJock wrote:Chris was only pointing out that what happened in Denver has nothing to do with what is going on here

Gibbs was a helluva HC with a great group behind him in Cassely and Beathard - when he came back his FO was Snyder & Cerrato

He should have recognized that Dumb & Dumber were not going to give him a chance to do what he did so well

Mike & Bruce are getting things back in order here and have positioned this club well

we need to stick with the plan and not fall into the trap of trading away high draft picks like Snyder would do

We need Dan Snyder to stay away from offering advice about how to draft or acquire players - we have seen that nightmare

Gibbs did realize Dumb and Dumber were a disaster. That's why, in my opinion, he unexpectedly resigned.

FWIW- this team used to trade high draft picks to sign players already in the NFL. Whens the last time we traded down to number two and acquired a top rated qb??
Answer NEVER. Ok I didn't research it so that's a guess.
Regardless it is not something this team has done in recent years past at all, and in FACT would not be the "Norm" but actually totally un- Snyder like.
I can agree last years draft was a success.. We did well and had more then we are used to.. That doesn't mean every year you trade up and get more and more late rounders.

FACT is FA this year before the draft will change our needs and how we draft. I believe we will pay some good players we like who have PROVEN their worth- not just on this last contract year either... We should also STAY AWAY from problem players w me first attitudes that the Snyder loves to make rich. - something I think we can all agree with and don't really need to worry about cus Shanny don play dat ish...
On top of that imo we don't pay rediculous sums to unproven players like Flynn. That would also be a mistake that the old way of business in the FO would par take.

Fill holes w Vets that preferably are under 30 and have been solid TEAM players and are NFL starter material that have proven so- big names small names starters depth you name it might as well spend snyders money on multiple players vs a single hundred million $ man...
THEN make a bold statement trade up get RGiii and become a dominate team for years to come, of course adding pieces all the while how and where we can. Trading picks to get a super smart and talented qb (most important position imo) isn't the same as trading picks for someone to come flop here. We Won't be drafting in the top ten again for a while I hope so make it count.
Let's hope its sixth overall and 38th this year then high twenty- 32! Next year and 64th.
Not saying we win the SB but hell w RGiii we r closer... Look who's going now! And we beat them twice by a combined 27 points with Rex at the helm..
People act like a first next year is the first overall pick! Its not gonna be! So relax...
Plus I'm sure we can acquire some trade bait in FA (thatd be smart) or use someone we have.. ey LL (not a fan of losing either) Rocky, Doughty, Buchanan… you get the idea to sweeten the deal and save picks. Its gonna be ok regardless of what happens, ima go nuts if they pull the trigger for RG.. That will be the staple of the Shanny and crews tenor here- hopefully highlighted by some championships

GoSkins wrote:

SkinsJock wrote:Chris was only pointing out that what happened in Denver has nothing to do with what is going on here

Gibbs was a helluva HC with a great group behind him in Cassely and Beathard - when he came back his FO was Snyder & Cerrato

He should have recognized that Dumb & Dumber were not going to give him a chance to do what he did so well

Mike & Bruce are getting things back in order here and have positioned this club well
R
we need to stick with the plan and not fall into the trap of trading away high draft picks like Snyder would do

We need Dan Snyder to stay away from offering advice about how to draft or acquire players - we have seen that nightmare

Gibbs did realize Dumb and Dumber were a disaster. That's why, in my opinion, he unexpectedly resigned.

And you don't think his Grandson having cancer wasn't the biggest reason. You are entitled to your opinion, but IMHO you are completely off base. That isn't the type of guy Gibbs is.

GoSkins wrote:

SkinsJock wrote:Chris was only pointing out that what happened in Denver has nothing to do with what is going on here

Gibbs was a helluva HC with a great group behind him in Cassely and Beathard - when he came back his FO was Snyder & Cerrato

He should have recognized that Dumb & Dumber were not going to give him a chance to do what he did so well

Mike & Bruce are getting things back in order here and have positioned this club well
R
we need to stick with the plan and not fall into the trap of trading away high draft picks like Snyder would do

We need Dan Snyder to stay away from offering advice about how to draft or acquire players - we have seen that nightmare

Gibbs did realize Dumb and Dumber were a disaster. That's why, in my opinion, he unexpectedly resigned.

And you don't think his Grandson having cancer wasn't the biggest reason. You are entitled to your opinion, but IMHO you are completely off base. That isn't the type of guy Gibbs is.

Gibbs left for all the right reasons - one of which was he knew that even he could not help this franchise with Snyder & Cerrato involved

This franchise needs Snyder to stay out of things - I don't think that this FO wants to trade up in the draft


I will qualify that in that they must get a free agent that can help them at QB - that could change my feelings about trading up

I just don't think these guys are going to give up 3-4 players in the top 60 in the next 2 drafts

SkinsJock wrote:Chris was only pointing out that what happened in Denver has nothing to do with what is going on here

Gibbs was a helluva HC with a great group behind him in Cassely and Beathard - when he came back his FO was Snyder & Cerrato

He should have recognized that Dumb & Dumber were not going to give him a chance to do what he did so well

Mike & Bruce are getting things back in order here and have positioned this club well

we need to stick with the plan and not fall into the trap of trading away high draft picks like Snyder would do

We need Dan Snyder to stay away from offering advice about how to draft or acquire players - we have seen that nightmare

Exactly.

GoSkins wrote:Gibbs did realize Dumb and Dumber were a disaster. That's why, in my opinion, he unexpectedly resigned.

No. I love Gibbs but he's on the hook for this one. He openly invited, enjoyed and felt that Dan needed to be involved in the decision making process. Gibbs enabled him.

Chris Luva Luva wrote:No. I love Gibbs but he's on the hook for this one. He openly invited, enjoyed and felt that Dan needed to be involved in the decision making process. Gibbs enabled him.

He invited his opinion, but did he listen to it? I doubt it. It's called managing your manager, which is the way to be successful in a job and get your manager to leave you alone to do it. It's my first instruction to all my employees. Listen to what I want, give it to me, and manage me so I go away. It's my job to verify they get it and are doing their jobs right. If they manage me so I'm comfortable they are, then it's in both our interest for me to focus my time elsewhere. If I'm not comfortable, they're going to get managed, which neither of us want.

Gibbs went to the playoffs 2 out of 4 years with a Spurrier team. Gibbs 1.0 got a well coached Perdue team. He lost nothing, but he wasn't in it for the long haul anymore and being 4 of 5 years into a contract he didn't want to extend, he thought it was better for the Skins to move to the future sooner then have him be a lame duck for a year. The insistence of some he somehow didn't do well is ridiculous. Had he been younger and in it for the long haul, Gibbs 2.0 would have yielded the results his first regime did. He just had further to go and less time to do it.