The-Hogs.net - Washington Football Discussion, Redskins to Commanders Era

RayNAustin wrote:Matt Cassel has been sacked 44, and has 18 TD's. Aaron Rodgers, sacked 30 times, 23 TDs.

Not to rehash a long and tired argument (and certainly, again, I do not hold Campbell completely blameless in the least), but let me know when Campbell has wide receivers like Randy Moss/Wes Welker to throw to, or Brandon Marshall/Eddie Royal.

I'm not even sure Santana Moss would be a #2 on either team (well, certainly not on the Patriots, and doubtful on the Broncos).

I wonder where ARE would be on either team...probably a 4th receiver, where he belongs?

KazooSkinsFan wrote:No, I can't argue that he's improving quickly. In the end, JKC wasn't so dissimilar to Snyder. He was never a football guru. But he found success when he found the right guys to put in place, Beathard and Gibbs.

But here's the last -- and most vital -- step in that process:

"But he found success when he found the right guys to put in place, Beathard and Gibbs, AND GOT OUT OF THEIR WAY."

KazooSkinsFan wrote:Frankly I'm not sure he added a lot of value to the debates between them, but at least he made a decision and funded it.

I doubt the Squire made many of those decisions himself. He knew he wouldn't add much value and didn't insist on doing so anyhow.

Thankfully, except for having to find a new coach (which is his prerogative as owner) Snyder seems to have stopped being as involved as the past and seems to have left the player and team decisions to the coaches and Cerrato lately.

We were in pretty dire straits but nothing that a few drafts like last year cannot fix.

Be interesting to see if the fan pressure for an "instant fix" like we used to do will result in more FA mistakes and further misery.

PulpExposure wrote:

RayNAustin wrote:Matt Cassel has been sacked 44, and has 18 TD's. Aaron Rodgers, sacked 30 times, 23 TDs.

Not to rehash a long and tired argument (and certainly, again, I do not hold Campbell completely blameless in the least), but let me know when Campbell has wide receivers like Randy Moss/Wes Welker to throw to, or Brandon Marshall/Eddie Royal.

I'm not even sure Santana Moss would be a #2 on either team (well, certainly not on the Patriots, and doubtful on the Broncos).

I wonder where ARE would be on either team...probably a 4th receiver, where he belongs?

Oh yeah? Well, guess what.....Santana Moss (12th) is CURRENTLY ahead of Randy Moss (17th) in catches and yards. Randy has Santana beat 10-6 in TDs. But we all know what trouble Campbell has throwing TDs...so I don't think it's Santana's fault. And he's way ahead of TO (21st), and Eddie Royal (26th), and that's with CAMPBELL as his QB.

What you don't seem to understand is how everyone thought Randy Moss was over the hill when he was with the Raiders, but when he went to a team with a real QB, he was a super star again. And now, with Brady out, Randy Moss's numbers are suffering terribly, and he has 10 TDs this year compared to 23 last year.

Just the opposite of what you are saying is in fact the reality....if Santana Moss had a real QB like Cutler, or Brees, or even Matt Ryan for that matter he's likely be in the top 5 or 6.

It amazes me that you don't even bother to look up facts before making statements like that.

chiefhog44 wrote:

Chris Luva Luva wrote:

SkinsFreak wrote:Yes, the teams struggles are frustrating, but Zorn hasn't been the one to lose fumbles, get stupid penalties, miss blocks, miss tackles, shank punts, kick 'kick-offs' out of bounds, miss field goals... etc. The players still have to execute. Zorn will be here next year and he deserves to be.

His play calling at the goal line was abysmal.

Come on man. Giving the ball twice to a huge man to run up the middle is a bad call???? With less then a yard no less??? What did you want? Give the ball to ARE on an end around pass? A fade to Moss? A QB sneek? Statue of Liberty? I liked the playcalling. I hate the execution.

Thank you, I agree. And if Zorn had called an end around to ARE that failed, the same bunch would be complaining that Zorn's playcalling sucked because he didn't give the ball to his 280 pound, Pro Bowl fullback on the goal line. By the way, how many threads have we seen over the past few weeks talking about using Sellers more often?????????????

SkinsFreak wrote:

chiefhog44 wrote:

Chris Luva Luva wrote:

SkinsFreak wrote:Yes, the teams struggles are frustrating, but Zorn hasn't been the one to lose fumbles, get stupid penalties, miss blocks, miss tackles, shank punts, kick 'kick-offs' out of bounds, miss field goals... etc. The players still have to execute. Zorn will be here next year and he deserves to be.

His play calling at the goal line was abysmal.

Come on man. Giving the ball twice to a huge man to run up the middle is a bad call???? With less then a yard no less??? What did you want? Give the ball to ARE on an end around pass? A fade to Moss? A QB sneek? Statue of Liberty? I liked the playcalling. I hate the execution.

Thank you, I agree. And if Zorn had called an end around to ARE that failed, the same bunch would be complaining that Zorn's playcalling sucked because he didn't give the ball to his 280 pound, Pro Bowl fullback on the goal line. By the way, how many threads have we seen over the past few weeks talking about using Sellers more often?????????????

You haven't seen any threads from me about using Mike more often. He's way too inconsistent and drops a pass for every two that he catches.

Anyway, my issue is that they tried it repeatedly and failed. Why not run it once with CP? Why not throw a fade? Why not run it twice with Sellers and then fake it to him on 3rd down and run play action?

It all goes back to the uninspired, predictable playing calling that his plagued this team for the past 7 games.

Zorn's playcalling has been a breathe of fresh air compared to the past 7 years. Players still have to execute. There's no guarantee any of those plays would have worked either.

SkinsFreak wrote:Zorn's playcalling has been a breathe of fresh air compared to the past 7 years. Players still have to execute. There's no guarantee any of those plays would have worked either.

I will just agree to disagree. I don't think he playcalling has been anything more than plain vanilla since the pre-season save a sprinkle of trick plays.

VetSkinsFan wrote:

SkinsFreak wrote:Zorn's playcalling has been a breathe of fresh air compared to the past 7 years. Players still have to execute. There's no guarantee any of those plays would have worked either.

I will just agree to disagree. I don't think he playcalling has been anything more than plain vanilla since the pre-season save a sprinkle of trick plays.

Well, I'm looking at the whole season, not just the past few weeks, Vet. When Zorn was 6-2, everyone was impressed with his playcalling and spoke about the difference compared to the past few seasons. Gibbs' conservative 2nd half playcalling that previously lost us games had changed to a playcaller that went for it on 4th downs to seal a victory. Just because Portis, ey and Sellers have been fumbling and the players aren't executing at a high level doesn't mean the playcalling sucks as a whole.

RayNAustin wrote:Oh yeah? Well, guess what.....Santana Moss (12th) is CURRENTLY ahead of Randy Moss (17th) in catches and yards. Randy has Santana beat 10-6 in TDs. But we all know what trouble Campbell has throwing TDs...so I don't think it's Santana's fault. And he's way ahead of TO (21st), and Eddie Royal (26th), and that's with CAMPBELL as his QB.

What you don't seem to understand is how everyone thought Randy Moss was over the hill when he was with the Raiders, but when he went to a team with a real QB, he was a super star again. And now, with Brady out, Randy Moss's numbers are suffering terribly, and he has 10 TDs this year compared to 23 last year.

Just the opposite of what you are saying is in fact the reality....if Santana Moss had a real QB like Cutler, or Brees, or even Matt Ryan for that matter he's likely be in the top 5 or 6.

It amazes me that you don't even bother to look up facts before making statements like that.

Back to cherry picking. Instead of comparing rankings, which makes them appear to be so far apart in ability, let's look at the actual numbers.

Randy Moss has 66 catches for 908 yards, and 10 TDs. Santana has 68 catches for 948 yards and 6 TDs. Santana has 2 more catches, 40 more yards, and 4 less TDs. And while you wave off the less TDs as purely Campbell's fault, Santana has never been able to score in the red zone...whereas Randy Moss is lethal in the red zone. Despite it being Cunningham, George, Culpepper, Brady, or Cassel throwing him the ball (I discount Oakland completely, because as Warren Sapp has said, that's where players go to die).

And then you didn't even look at Wes Welker. Oh right, Santana is way the hell behind him statistically. Wes has 102 catches, 1071 yards (only 2 TDs, though).

In any case, if you really think Santana Moss would replace Randy Moss as a #1 receiver on the Patriots...seriously. Randy Moss beats double teams. Randy Moss is lethal in the red zone. Santana Moss gets completely shut out by a double team, and throwing to Santana in the end zone is a total exercise in futility.

I love Santana, but let's be real. Equating the two is crazy. Randy Moss is one of the best receivers to ever play in the NFL. Santana Moss? He has 2 1000 yard seasons to his name, and his best season would probably be Randy Moss' 5th or 6th best season.

And if you don't know, not all of Santana's years were with Campbell at QB. He's had several QBs (just like Randy)...and he's never been a big TD scorer (career high of 10 TDs for Chad Pennington/Vinny Testaverde, completely unlike Randy). While Randy has had 8 seasons of 10 TDs or more (and 4 of those were 15 or more), Santana has that one season. It's not just Campbell.

I could design a bail out play but our kcking game suck I don't know were portis was at when they handed the ball to sellers a 2nd time bit I hate those 1inch failers and the fumble was terrible.

redskins14ru wrote:I could design a bail out play but our kcking game suck I don't know were portis was at when they handed the ball to sellers a 2nd time bit I hate those 1inch failers and the fumble was terrible.

I'm sure it would be facinating to watch.....

VetSkinsFan wrote:

SkinsFreak wrote:Zorn's playcalling has been a breathe of fresh air compared to the past 7 years. Players still have to execute. There's no guarantee any of those plays would have worked either.

I will just agree to disagree. I don't think he playcalling has been anything more than plain vanilla since the pre-season save a sprinkle of trick plays.

I'm more in the middle. I think he's called some good plays, but they tend to be earlier in the game and in the season. I really think this is the sort of thing that needs to be addressed in the off season. It also makes me wonder if he feels that with injuries his options were more limited. But I agree with you Vet that play calling is definitely an issue that needs to be addressed with the rest of it.

Also on those topics of play calling and injuries, when a 6-2 team with quality wins turns around and goes 1-5, those are the things I would start with in my analysis of how to play better next year. But when you do start like we did you clearly have some talent and overreacting and blowing up the team instead of working to improve it would be a major mistake.

KazooSkinsFan wrote:

VetSkinsFan wrote:

SkinsFreak wrote:Zorn's playcalling has been a breathe of fresh air compared to the past 7 years. Players still have to execute. There's no guarantee any of those plays would have worked either.

I will just agree to disagree. I don't think he playcalling has been anything more than plain vanilla since the pre-season save a sprinkle of trick plays.

I'm more in the middle. I think he's called some good plays, but they tend to be earlier in the game and in the season. I really think this is the sort of thing that needs to be addressed in the off season. It also makes me wonder if he feels that with injuries his options were more limited. But I agree with you Vet that play calling is definitely an issue that needs to be addressed with the rest of it.

Also on those topics of play calling and injuries, when a 6-2 team with quality wins turns around and goes 1-5, those are the things I would start with in my analysis of how to play better next year. But when you do start like we did you clearly have some talent and overreacting and blowing up the team instead of working to improve it would be a major mistake.

Just b/c the running game was working before our line was fatigued does not necessarily make the playcalling flavorful. It's called execution. The line wasn't wore out, there was no film on JZ. I said myself that the real test will be the 2nd half of the season after there's film to studdy.
How many times have w seen 3 & out with a run, run, pass in the flat (or 3 yards shy of the 1st down)? I hardly doubt THIS YEAR the receivers forgot how to run routes and run them all short. This is too much to be coincidental that this year the receivers run short routes in a WCO that is predicated on YAC.

the receivers are responsible for hitting the sticks, only on plays were there supposed to be and if there running plays that are designed to get the ball to the receiver short of the sticks I would assume they need to get yards after the catch but that never materializes. Zorn seems to be getting a pretty good control over the team and the personel, seemingly bad call playing may be a great test and shows some guts, I only mean that the skins on the field are the warriors and need to execute, and deliver also to be a team and to asses the weaknesses of the team. they all watch film and know who they are. The more little things that fail this weekend against the eagles the deeper the hole gets the more they fail and fail to execute as a coach zorn and the players will learn to keep composure as a group and as individuals.
football a great game and there is a business to it it seems to me that the skins are playing football and it is a wonderful game
beleive

RayNAustin wrote:

PulpExposure wrote:

RayNAustin wrote:Matt Cassel has been sacked 44, and has 18 TD's. Aaron Rodgers, sacked 30 times, 23 TDs.

Not to rehash a long and tired argument (and certainly, again, I do not hold Campbell completely blameless in the least), but let me know when Campbell has wide receivers like Randy Moss/Wes Welker to throw to, or Brandon Marshall/Eddie Royal.

I'm not even sure Santana Moss would be a #2 on either team (well, certainly not on the Patriots, and doubtful on the Broncos).

I wonder where ARE would be on either team...probably a 4th receiver, where he belongs?

Oh yeah? Well, guess what.....Santana Moss (12th) is CURRENTLY ahead of Randy Moss (17th) in catches and yards. Randy has Santana beat 10-6 in TDs. But we all know what trouble Campbell has throwing TDs...so I don't think it's Santana's fault. And he's way ahead of TO (21st), and Eddie Royal (26th), and that's with CAMPBELL as his QB.

What you don't seem to understand is how everyone thought Randy Moss was over the hill when he was with the Raiders, but when he went to a team with a real QB, he was a super star again. And now, with Brady out, Randy Moss's numbers are suffering terribly, and he has 10 TDs this year compared to 23 last year.

Just the opposite of what you are saying is in fact the reality....if Santana Moss had a real QB like Cutler, or Brees, or even Matt Ryan for that matter he's likely be in the top 5 or 6.

It amazes me that you don't even bother to look up facts before making statements like that.

You guys started an argument about Aaron Rodgers...the Green Bay QB and have turned it into arguing about his receivers who play for the Broncos... ah what's the use. It's funny to watch you two argue.

Well now it is official - Cerrato today answered the media's questions about Zorn's status - saying basically that the topic about Zorn's future had not even been discussed - from what a lot of fans here at THN have indicated about Cerrato & Snyder, I guess we can now assume that Zorn will not be back as HC next year - this aught to be a fun couple of weeks with various pundits pushing their agenda for who we will have as HC next season

If Snyder fires Zorn he will play hell ever getting a decent coach to come here again.

I agree with the comments about Campbell. Until he has decent WR's, we won't know how good he can be. Anyone who tries to compare the stats of Santana and Randy Moss is mssing a few screws, no offense. There is no comparison. Randy gets double-teamed and is the first focus point of every defense coordinator the Pats face. With Santana, besides the occasional good game, we're lucky if he is even a factor. and forget about touchdowns. I keep hearing people talk about Campbell's lack of TD's. Duh, he's throwing to Mickey and Minnie inside the 20. Everyone just doubles ey and dares Campbell to throw. If Santana doesn't burn somebody for a 70 yarder, he doesn't score. Neither Wr can catch in traffic well. Neither can go up and get the ball. Neither can use their body to shield defenders (useful not only in the end zone, but also for 1st downs, like Art Monk.)

Campbell may not be the Superstar of the future, but he is less of the problem than Moss and ARE. He also has the potential to be a great QB if given some WR's.

fleetus wrote:If Snyder fires Zorn he will play hell ever getting a decent coach to come here again.

I agree with the comments about Campbell. Until he has decent WR's, we won't know how good he can be. Anyone who tries to compare the stats of Santana and Randy Moss is mssing a few screws, no offense. There is no comparison. Randy gets double-teamed and is the first focus point of every defense coordinator the Pats face. With Santana, besides the occasional good game, we're lucky if he is even a factor. and forget about touchdowns. I keep hearing people talk about Campbell's lack of TD's. Duh, he's throwing to Mickey and Minnie inside the 20. Everyone just doubles ey and dares Campbell to throw. If Santana doesn't burn somebody for a 70 yarder, he doesn't score. Neither Wr can catch in traffic well. Neither can go up and get the ball. Neither can use their body to shield defenders (useful not only in the end zone, but also for 1st downs, like Art Monk.)

Campbell may not be the Superstar of the future, but he is less of the problem than Moss and ARE. He also has the potential to be a great QB if given some WR's.

Santana has put more on the table than JC....

SkinsJock wrote:Well now it is official - Cerrato today answered the media's questions about Zorn's status - saying basically that the topic about Zorn's future had not even been discussed - from what a lot of fans here at THN have indicated about Cerrato & Snyder, I guess we can now assume that Zorn will not be back as HC next year - this aught to be a fun couple of weeks with various pundits pushing their agenda for who we will have as HC next season

Yay. Link.

Vinny Cerrato, the Washington Redskins' executive vice president for football operations, said today that team officials have not discussed the status of first-year coach Jim Zorn, and that any speculation that Zorn could be removed is driven by the media.

"In this building, that question has never even been brought up," said Cerrato, speaking on his "Inside the Red Zone" radio program on WTEM. "It's never even been discussed."

Show host Frank Hanrahan then asked Cerrato whether Zorn would return next season, to which Cerrato responded, "Yeah. There's not even been any discussion, so, end of discussion."

Cerrato has declined interview requests over the past week and said Zorn's future was being discussed externally, not internally.

"It's business as usual in this building," he said.

Die thread, die.

Vinny wrote:"It's business as usual in this building," he said.

Resurrect thread, resurrect!

Chris Luva Luva wrote:

Vinny wrote:"It's business as usual in this building," he said.

Resurrect thread, resurrect!

To use your old image against you...

It's unfortunate we as Redskins fans must endure the chaotic speculation of whether there

will be a new ccach again this year. That we the supporters will be given no choice but to

watch the roots pulled from a growing organization, starting it from bare soil again.

In Tennessee, Jeff Fisher has been gaining inches every year during the period of the last

six Redskins coaching staffs, putting together years of consecutive drafts for his type of

players and teachers. It is my hope that one day we can have that kind of stability that

resides in places like Indianapolis and New England. Maybe it won't be Zorn, but we

couldn't really feel excited about a change for the sake of change. Just because big names

are unemployed doesn't mean they're worth snatching up. They all have experience.

Jim Fassel has experience, so does Cowher. But no one has ever lived long enough to

see exact situations play out twice. Maybe certain plays and circumstances, but

not with the same set of people or strengths and weaknesses. I guess what I'm saying

is the man in charge needs to have a special command of the right now, the approach and

steadiness of a great leader such as Joe Gibbs. He dealt with everything in a bold but

consistent way, especially in his first stint. Things may not have gotten off to a great start

but once everyone fell in line and became "his" people this organization reached the peak

of its historical pride. Snyder must give Zorn the opportunity to turn this group into a

family again. He doesn't change his answers or give you the impression that he is

uncertain about what he's going to do, something we never had with any of the coaches

in the past ten years. For the millions upon millions of Redskins supporters and those

whose lives are dedicated to turning this team into a winning organization,

please give him a chance. 7-7 was realistic in the beginning of this year and I applaud

him for going 6-2 before teams began to focus on our personnel issues.

Life is too short to be spent thinking about what could have been...

I don't think I can answer the question.

On one hand, it seems like he ought to have a chance to implement a three year plan. You can't expect a coach to just come in and win the Superbowl in his first season.

On the other hand, he had some promise as a 55 year old coordinator, but no one expected him to become head coach. I have some faith in his ability to build a winning organization, but what has he really done?

He was the quarterbacks coach from 1999-2000 with the Lions, and then from 2001-2007 with the Seahawks and those teams enjoyed some pretty decent quarterback play but his only experience actually running an offense was for two years at Utah State.

I just don't know if he's the right man to run the team, I do know that some of the players who were critical of Joe Gibbs seem to be quieter now. I know that Jason Campbell's limited interceptions, and that Portis, Moss and ey are enjoying very good seasons...

Then again, our offense is ranked 29th in points scored, and 19th in total yardage.

Is he the right man to run the team? Who knows. I'd just like someone to have some job security around here. If he's not the guy, then we need someone... someone with real merit and no celebrity status to come in with their own people and not have to worry about getting canned for finishing .500.

Merged. Please guys, we already have several threads going about Zorn. Please post Zorn related comments in one of those threads. Thank you.