The-Hogs.net - Washington Football Discussion, Redskins to Commanders Era

[/quote]
It's nice to see that someone else understands the facts of the matter. I've been saying the same thing for months.[/quote]

I've been saying that about Robert for years, it's about time Keim finally said it publicly. I never believed in Griffin and knew in 2012 what would happen. I didn't know when it would happen and it was sad to see but in my mind inevitable. I'm 63 so I've seen several exciting, running college QBs get to the league on their athletic talent instead of their minds and pocket passing skills flash and burn in the NFL. I remember being intrigued by Vince Evans when he came out of USC in the 70's to play for the Bears.

Evans wasn't off the charts athletic like Griffin but Vince was a gifted runner and playmaker with a cannon for an arm coming out of college. Vince made things happen and was fun to watch but he didn't last as a starter. Evans was a good teammate and adapted enough to have a long NFL career as a backup. Maybe Griffin can be more successful with another offense/franchise, Philly comes to mind if Kelly survives. I don't know if Griffin could start for Kelly but he might fit. Robert is really miscast in Gruden's WCO so I don't see Griffin being effective stepping in on short notice after weeks of backup reps for Cousins if McCoy isn't on the roster in 2016. I think the Skins will go forward with another backup in 2016 rather than renegotiate Griffin's contract.

FWIW, Reddick thinks Cousins is nothing more than a backup, but admitted that he didn't get the benefit of watching Cousins in practice, film, etc.

StorminMormon86 wrote:FWIW, Reddick thinks Cousins is nothing more than a backup, but admitted that he didn't get the benefit of watching Cousins in practice, film, etc.

After his 7 games I think any fair minded and knowledgeable observer would have to conclude Kirk as performed at least as well as an average NFL starter given the roster the Skins have in 2015. After going 7-25 the last two years Kirk has helped them with two game winning drives in their three victories. He has had to carry the team since the rushing game petered out after the first couple of games. Last week he was the NFL Offensive player of the week. Can he sustain this level or performance or even elevate it this year, maybe with Jackson's help. Washington might be 4-3, 5-2 or even 6-1 with Jackson playing. I think Reddick is wrong and Kirk will finish solid if not strong and the Skins or another team give him a starters contract at the end of the season.

OldSchool wrote:

StorminMormon86 wrote:FWIW, Reddick thinks Cousins is nothing more than a backup, but admitted that he didn't get the benefit of watching Cousins in practice, film, etc.

After his 7 games I think any fair minded and knowledgeable observer would have to conclude Kirk as performed at least as well as an average NFL starter given the roster the Skins have in 2015. After going 7-25 the last two years Kirk has helped them with two game winning drives in their three victories. He has had to carry the team since the rushing game petered out after the first couple of games. Last week he was the NFL Offensive player of the week. Can he sustain this level or performance or even elevate it this year, maybe with Jackson's help. Washington might be 4-3, 5-2 or even 6-1 with Jackson playing. I think Reddick is wrong and Kirk will finish solid if not strong and the Skins or another team give him a starters contract at the end of the season.

If Kirk has a strong finish he will get a smaller version of the Kap contract.

most of us are hoping Kirk Cousins can lift his game this season and prove that he's not a back-up NFL QB that is prone to turning the ball over

there are 9 games left - I don't think he can do it but that does not mean I don't want him to

as I keep posting the record is not as important as showing that he's not going to keep turning the ball over - last week's second half was a good start but it means squat if he has a bad game against the Patriots

during these next 7 games, he doesn't have to win he just needs to prove that if he does turn the ball over a bunch it does not matter because he's the second iteration of a Brettt Favre and he's going to win a bunch of games

we'll soon find out who he really is

SkinsJock wrote:most of us are hoping Kirk Cousins can lift his game this season and prove that he's not a back-up NFL QB that is prone to turning the ball over

there are 9 games left - I don't think he can do it but that does not mean I don't want him to

as I keep posting the record is not as important as showing that he's not going to keep turning the ball over - last week's second half was a good start but it means squat if he has a bad game against the Patriots

during these next 7 games, he doesn't have to win he just needs to prove that if he does turn the ball over a bunch it does not matter because he's the second iteration of a Brettt Favre and he's going to win a bunch of games

we'll soon find out who he really is

Cousins has already proven he's more than a backup prone to turning the ball over. He's brought the team from behind in the 4th quarter twice (nearly three times) without any rushing game behind an offensive line comprised mostly of rookies and backups with his primary receiver out with a hamstring injury and his safety valve tight end out for several games with another concussion. This is to say nothing of a defense that can't stop an opposing team's rushing attack by accident and gave up over 160 yards receiving to Mike Evans.

You don't think he can do it? That does mean you don't want him to because he IS doing it. Snide remarks aside, your bias is sickening and you're back on ignore.

Note to self: Stop trying to get along with the village idiot.

we have 9 games left - Kirk Cousins will have his chance ...



and, I'll still be here

SkinsJock wrote:we have 9 games left - Kirk Cousins will have his chance ...



and, I'll still be here

I'm genuinely curious...

If Kirk falters, what do you hope the Skins do going into next year? Draft a QB? Or turn back to Griffin?

StorminMormon86 wrote:

SkinsJock wrote:we have 9 games left - Kirk Cousins will have his chance ...



and, I'll still be here

I'm genuinely curious...

If Kirk falters, what do you hope the Skins do going into next year? Draft a QB? Or turn back to Griffin?

I know you are asking SJ, but this is a good question for everyone. I don't think there is any realistic shot of going back to Griffin unless he restructures to lose the $16 million price tag. I'd say, if Kirk is not the answer, we have to go back to the draft. Maybe bring in a vet to cover for a year, if we can't get a play-ready QB in the draft next year.

StorminMormon86 wrote:FWIW, Reddick thinks Cousins is nothing more than a backup, but admitted that he didn't get the benefit of watching Cousins in practice, film, etc.

Riddick's point on Cousins was that so far KC has been inconsistent. One week, awesome game. Next week, complete disaster. What you expect to see out of a backup.

I agree with how he formed the opinion, but the sample size still seems too low for me. People can say Kirk had already played 16 games or whatever, but its not the same as watching a QB play 16 consecutive games in the same season in the same system under the same coach.

If Cousins has any potential to be a starting QB, I think we should expect to see growth over the course of these 16 games. Like SJ is writing, it may not amount to WINS, but we should see growth and improvement over this season.

Deadskins wrote:I know you are asking SJ, but this is a good question for everyone. I don't think there is any realistic shot of going back to Griffin unless he restructures to lose the $16 million price tag. I'd say, if Kirk is not the answer, we have to go back to the draft. Maybe bring in a vet to cover for a year, if we can't get a play-ready QB in the draft next year.

Even if Kirk is obviously not "the answer", he still may end up being the best option for us next year. I'm not sure there is any veteran FA who is going to come in here and do any better. You? And hard for me to imagine the team taking a 1st round QB next year. We'll see though.

Deadskins wrote:

StorminMormon86 wrote:

SkinsJock wrote:we have 9 games left - Kirk Cousins will have his chance ...



and, I'll still be here

I'm genuinely curious...

If Kirk falters, what do you hope the Skins do going into next year? Draft a QB? Or turn back to Griffin?

I know you are asking SJ, but this is a good question for everyone. I don't think there is any realistic shot of going back to Griffin unless he restructures to lose the $16 million price tag. I'd say, if Kirk is not the answer, we have to go back to the draft. Maybe bring in a vet to cover for a year, if we can't get a play-ready QB in the draft next year.

I'd guess they stick with Kirk for another year regardless. This draft has a dearth of quarterback talent and there's a lot to be said for consistency. Realistically no one expected Kirk to be starting and no one expected this team to win more than six games this season. There are still a lot of holes to be filled and quarterback (assuming Kirk Cousins is not the answer) is but one of those. Even if he isn't a starter he's certainly a more than capable backup who can use all the experience he can get. I also think Kirk has done some things we haven't seen from any of our quarterbacks in a very long time. I'm guessing his leash is pretty long. Any quarterback who shows he can lead his team from behind with any consistency is going to be a hot commodity on the open market. There are half a dozen teams who would take Cousins over their current starter right now. Having said that, there is a ZERO percent chance the team lets RGIII anywhere near the field unless he agrees to restructure his contract, and even then I don;t see it. His 15 minutes of fame in DC are up. He needs a fresh start elsewhere. Obviously, McCloughan will be looking to draft quarterbacks at some point in any cease because the team has, at most, one they will be keeping. But with so many other needs a game manager is fine for the foreseeable future. Kirk isn't losing the team games. (Waits for some idiot to argue the overtime interception lost a game.)

riggofan wrote:

Deadskins wrote:I know you are asking SJ, but this is a good question for everyone. I don't think there is any realistic shot of going back to Griffin unless he restructures to lose the $16 million price tag. I'd say, if Kirk is not the answer, we have to go back to the draft. Maybe bring in a vet to cover for a year, if we can't get a play-ready QB in the draft next year.

Even if Kirk is obviously not "the answer", he still may end up being the best option for us next year. I'm not sure there is any veteran FA who is going to come in here and do any better. You? And hard for me to imagine the team taking a 1st round QB next year. We'll see though.

Kirk is a FA at the end of the year, so he may not be an option.

Deadskins wrote:Kirk is a FA at the end of the year, so he may not be an option.

Bets on whether or not he gets an extension before the season ends?

Deadskins wrote:Kirk is a FA at the end of the year, so he may not be an option.

He will always be an option next year. Just depends on how much we want to keep him.

riggofan wrote:

Deadskins wrote:Kirk is a FA at the end of the year, so he may not be an option.

He will always be an option next year. Just depends on how much we want to keep him.

Yes and No. It is well documented that Kirk hasn't been a huge fan of how things went down with RGIII and Snyder. Kirk has always believed he was the better QB. He has been pretty frustrated by all the chances RGIII has gotten (which is understandable, IMHO) over the years and the owner playing favorites with RGIII; I was told he asked for a trade last year which was denied, but could be mistaken.

If Kirk thinks he is good enough to go somewhere else and catch on, I wouldn't be surprised to see that. People can say what they want, but being a successful QB in DC is not easy --- and franchises know that. Kirk has been mediocre and there are some franchises that may see that as a success given the lack of running game and our 4-12 record last season.

There are a number of teams that could potentially go after him: PHI, BUF, KC, CLE, NYJ, and HOU. There are no easy-pick first rounders in next years draft. He'll have options.

The only way we potentially lock him up and make his ability to move on is by franchising him (and this may be what you are saying by how much we want to keep him). He isn't worth that kind of $$$, but if he wants out, there will be multiple teams willing to sign him as their QB1.

Other than Stafford, there are no real viable "stop gap" options in the FA market next year. Cousins, at this time, is the best option going forward, IMO.

Kirk will not get extended. He is too inconsistent to get a contract. Kirk is Gruden's guy so what does that tell you about Gruden. He's likely gone. And RG3 is on the roster.

You cannot fight ownership. Gruden was brought in explicitly to fix RG3. After getting the contract and saying the right things, Gruden double crossed ownership by the third preseason game of his first year and started the anti-RG3 movement that he was hired to prevent. Reports said that Snyder called Gruden's agent saying that his client is stealing money. So unless you are a Gus/Zorn Redskins fan and are totally delusional, which many are, Gruden double crossing his owner will not only lead to his dismissal, but he will never coach in the NFL again in a head coaching capacity. No owner will want an ex-AFL HC who has shown nothing but the ability to double cross ownership (and get outcoached in the third quarter) as HC of their team. Only Redskin homers want this obviously incompetent HC on their team.

If Cousins was anything other than a backup QB, he would get extended. He is a noodle armed backup and therefore will not get a contract. If Gruden was in favor with the top of Redskin football, his guy would get extended.

Teams want QBs and they would take a shot on RG3 if he rearranges his contract. So why is he here acting nice and not asking for a trade. Because he knows that Gruden is fired and Cosuins is just a backup. RG3 is Snyder's guy and Gruden betrayed Snyder and therefore has no trust from ownership.

And don't think Scott will save Gruden and Cosuins. Scott has been here less than a year. Scott isn't stupid to think he can run roughshot over an NFL owner. Only Jay "Code red" Gruden is that stupid, and soon he will be out of the NFL.

hitmandm wrote:Kirk will not get extended. He is too inconsistent to get a contract. Kirk is Gruden's guy so what does that tell you about Gruden. He's likely gone. And RG3 is on the roster.

I don't think that will be the case, but ok. It also appears that Kirk is Scot's guy too. Regardless, it seems like you are very confident in this. I'll make a note of it for future use.....

hitmandm wrote:Gruden was brought in explicitly to fix RG3. After getting the contract and saying the right things, Gruden double crossed ownership by the third preseason game of his first year and started the anti-RG3 movement that he was hired to prevent.

So RGIII's play had nothing to do with the "anti-RGIII movement". Nothing? His 2 straight years of bottom 3 QBR didn't have anything to do with the "anti" movement???? What about the fact a -- as you say -- backup is playing significantly and unquestionably better than RGIII has since his 2012 year.

And Gruden "double crossed" ownership? Gruden was brought in to win games, not to (as you indirectly say) babysit RGIII. If a HC doesn't think a player will produce, you move on. That is what coaching is all about. This isn't grade school football. RGIII isn't the coaches son (although he is the owners little pet, so you actually may have a point there).

hitmandm wrote: Reports said that Snyder called Gruden's agent saying that his client is stealing money.

Link please. Otherwise, it just makes you look like a bitter RGIII fan (and therefore anti-Gruden since he won't play RGIII --- just because, since there is actually no factual or logical reason to play RGIII based on his post-2012 production).

hitmandm wrote:If Gruden was in favor with the top of Redskin football, his guy would get extended.

Sound confident. No chance Kirk would structure a deal right now and neither would the skins. That would happen in the offseason. Also, who gets a deal has MUCH more to do with the GM. It has very little to do with the HC.

hitmandm wrote:Teams want QBs and they would take a shot on RG3 if he rearranges his contract.

What are you saying? That teams would trade for RGIII now if he'd restructure his deal? Reports have been that there is no interest in RGIII. If a team came and told RGIII that he'd be the starter if he restructured his deal, he'd be a fool not to do it. So, logic causes me to think he hasn't been approached with a similar deal.

hitmandm wrote:Because he knows that Gruden is fired and Cosuins is just a backup. RG3 is Snyder's guy and Gruden betrayed Snyder and therefore has no trust from ownership.

I had said I see your point in this regard. And again, if that is the case, the organization is as F---ed up as it has ever been.

And the fact RGIII is Snyder's guy -- an owner that has literally taken a hot steaming dump on this franchises' history --- says alot.

hitmandm wrote:And don't think Scott will save Gruden and Cosuins. Scott has been here less than a year. Scott isn't stupid to think he can run roughshot over an NFL owner.

I think you are underestimating the resolve Scot has in himself. I personally think he is not going to bend over to Danny like a little b!#$%. He understands that the only consistency Danny has in the NFL is failure. He also knows that if he fails here, his career as an NFL FO exec is over. If it were me in that position, I would rather be fired than go against something I thought would make my franchise successful. I wouldn't give 2 craps what my idiotic owner's opinion was on the HC or QB. I'd do what I thought was best. If it got me fired, oh well. I think (or more so HOPE) Scot is the same way.

markshark84 wrote:

hitmandm wrote:Kirk will not get extended. He is too inconsistent to get a contract. Kirk is Gruden's guy so what does that tell you about Gruden. He's likely gone. And RG3 is on the roster.

I don't think that will be the case, but ok. It also appears that Kirk is Scot's guy too. Regardless, it seems like you are very confident in this. I'll make a note of it for future use.....

hitmandm wrote:Gruden was brought in explicitly to fix RG3. After getting the contract and saying the right things, Gruden double crossed ownership by the third preseason game of his first year and started the anti-RG3 movement that he was hired to prevent.

So RGIII's play had nothing to do with the "anti-RGIII movement". Nothing? His 2 straight years of bottom 3 QBR didn't have anything to do with the "anti" movement???? What about the fact a -- as you say -- backup is playing significantly and unquestionably better than RGIII has since his 2012 year.

And Gruden "double crossed" ownership? Gruden was brought in to win games, not to (as you indirectly say) babysit RGIII. If a HC doesn't think a player will produce, you move on. That is what coaching is all about. This isn't grade school football. RGIII isn't the coaches son (although he is the owners little pet, so you actually may have a point there).

hitmandm wrote: Reports said that Snyder called Gruden's agent saying that his client is stealing money.

Link please. Otherwise, it just makes you look like a bitter RGIII fan (and therefore anti-Gruden since he won't play RGIII --- just because, since there is actually no factual or logical reason to play RGIII based on his post-2012 production).

hitmandm wrote:If Gruden was in favor with the top of Redskin football, his guy would get extended.

Sound confident. No chance Kirk would structure a deal right now and neither would the skins. That would happen in the offseason. Also, who gets a deal has MUCH more to do with the GM. It has very little to do with the HC.

hitmandm wrote:Teams want QBs and they would take a shot on RG3 if he rearranges his contract.

What are you saying? That teams would trade for RGIII now if he'd restructure his deal? Reports have been that there is no interest in RGIII. If a team came and told RGIII that he'd be the starter if he restructured his deal, he'd be a fool not to do it. So, logic causes me to think he hasn't been approached with a similar deal.

hitmandm wrote:Because he knows that Gruden is fired and Cosuins is just a backup. RG3 is Snyder's guy and Gruden betrayed Snyder and therefore has no trust from ownership.

I had said I see your point in this regard. And again, if that is the case, the organization is as F---ed up as it has ever been.

And the fact RGIII is Snyder's guy -- an owner that has literally taken a hot steaming dump on this franchises' history --- says alot.

hitmandm wrote:And don't think Scott will save Gruden and Cosuins. Scott has been here less than a year. Scott isn't stupid to think he can run roughshot over an NFL owner.

I think you are underestimating the resolve Scot has in himself. I personally think he is not going to bend over to Danny like a little b!#$%. He understands that the only consistency Danny has in the NFL is failure. He also knows that if he fails here, his career as an NFL FO exec is over. If it were me in that position, I would rather be fired than go against something I thought would make my franchise successful. I wouldn't give 2 craps what my idiotic owner's opinion was on the HC or QB. I'd do what I thought was best. If it got me fired, oh well. I think (or more so HOPE) Scot is the same way.

I think your points are clueless with how the world works on a number of fronts-but they are my opinion much like yours are your opinion. I stand by my analysis and will answer up in the future. I wonder if you will, because I will remember and I don't want you crying when I call you out on it.

But here is the link to the report of Snyder's call: http://washington.cbslocal.com/2015/07/ ... den-rgiii/

Barring a total meltdown for the remainder of the season, I don't see how Snyder fires Gruden at years end. And even if it happened, Scot will still be here. And the constant references to "football people" deciding on Cousins over Griffin are Scot and Gruden. So if Scot doesn't think Griffin is good enough to start over Cousins, what makes you think he'll be starting here next year with or without Gruden as the head coach?

StorminMormon86 wrote:the constant references to "football people" deciding on Cousins over Griffin are Scot and Gruden. So if Scot doesn't think Griffin is good enough to start over Cousins, what makes you think he'll be starting here next year with or without Gruden as the head coach?

It's not Scot's job to decide who starts, and he has said as much. He brings in the players and Gruden decides who plays.

StorminMormon86 wrote:

SkinsJock wrote:we have 9 games left - Kirk Cousins will have his chance ...

I'm genuinely curious... If Kirk falters, what do you hope the Skins do going into next year? Draft a QB? Or turn back to Griffin?

Kirk should get as much time as possible to show that he's a starting caliber NFL QB and not just a good back-up QB who turns the ball over

Griffin is only here if he restructures and he clearly demonstrates he can be an effective NFL QB

I'm not a Kirk or Griffin guy - it's possible they are both here or both are gone

Kirk just needs to keep getting better and Griffin could benefit from what he's been through here

hitmandm wrote:I think your points are clueless with how the world works on a number of fronts-but they are my opinion much like yours are your opinion. I stand by my analysis and will answer up in the future. I wonder if you will, because I will remember and I don't want you crying when I call you out on it.

But here is the link to the report of Snyder's call: http://washington.cbslocal.com/2015/07/ ... den-rgiii/

Hey man, I can understand that it's your opinion and mine is mine. As far as me being clueless, we shall see. I'd love for you to get more specific so I can rip those counters apart, but no worries. I think my track record speaks for itself.

As far as the article, there is a TON of hearsay in it. Lots of "sources" that literally could only go back to Danny boy's people (if they aren't completely fabricated or just lies in general) based on the way they were phrased. Nothing is confirmed. But people are permitted to believe what they want, and you sir, WANT to believe that Jay Gruden is a horrendous coach that has no business in the NFL at any capacity and is the reason for RGIII's decline. And that is fine. It's wrong, but fine.

Big caveat --- that isn't an endorsement of Gruden. I personally don't think he is a great coach, but don't think he doesn't belong in the NFL.

SkinsJock wrote:I'm not a Kirk or Griffin guy

When did this happen or is this some type of attempt to appear objective?