The-Hogs.net - Washington Football Discussion, Redskins to Commanders Era

KazooSkinsFan wrote:

Deadskins wrote:Ray is correct on this, and I might add, that Humphries was a bone of contention between the two and part of the reason Beathard said goodbye.

Humphries may have been the proximate cause, but he wasn't the reason.

I agree Bethard wasn't happy Gibbs was getting final say, which I said, but was wrong about, but it was apparently correct. But you guys are forgetting he was also in his mid fifties and had family in San Diego and wanted to go there. I'm not saying it was one or the other, I'm saying it was the combination.

Kaz, you're never wrong, you just were not "right" when you claimed that Cooke ALWAYS sided with Gibbs. It was actually the opposite for the majority of the time the Beathard-Gibbs team existed.

It was the change in that situation that took place over the last couple of years where Cooke began siding with Gibbs that strained the relationship and caused Beathard to leave. Beathard knew he was the one responsible for bringing in most of the talent that comprised those "Glory Years" teams .... and felt a bit disrespected when Cooke started acting like Gibbs was the genius picking the players.

So, he left ... went to San Diego ... got the Redskins to trade to him the QB he drafted for the Redskins, and proceeded to build a winning team around that player, while the Redskins soon declined into a long period of non-relevance, while Beathard found his way back to the Super Bowl.

KazooSkinsFan wrote:My dispute with your point isn't so much that it has to be Mikey, it's that you're adopting the gnat attention span approach to rebuilding that is the biggest reason we can't stop sucking.

Contrary to the belief of armchair fans like Ray, 2 1/2 year is not long enough to overhaul a roster and build a winning organization when we were as bad as we were.

Once again, we have the "alternate reality" version of reality from you .. BIG SURPRISE. And by the way ... what is an "armchair fan" anyway? And what makes you or your opinions any different ... hmmm?

You may say others have a gnat's attention span, whilst you seem to have the memory of a gnat. Good job Pot ... meet Kettle.

KazooSkinsFan wrote:I expect to see progress this year, and I did. I expect to see more progress next year. If at the end of year four we're still 6-10 or so, then yeah, you're getting my attention. But advocating starting over now is just crazy.

You did? How did you come up with that? Oh yes. ... that new math that had Shanahan's record in denver at a 75% win ratio. Gotcha!

You don't like facts do you, Kaz? They tend to interfere with your otherwise very wise and solidly grounded opinions, don't they? Fact: this year so far, the win percentage is .333 ... while the previous 32 games are at .343. My dear Winston Smith, that is not progress. Up is not down ... left is not right ... ignorance is not strength ... and .333 is not an improvement on .343

Furthermore, I got news for you ..... the win-loss record of the 41 games under Shanahan (14-27) is WORSE than previous 41 games before Shanahan (17-24) That's not an opinion .. . nor is it speculation ... it's a hard cold documented fact which is indelibly ensconced in the record books of the NFL historical archives. And WORSE IS NOT IMPROVEMENT. It's not even "same old same old". In fact, one could justifiably say it might have been better had he never come here, if history were to make that judgment call. So, if we were so bad before, as you claim .. then we are just "mo bad" now. I don't think we can stand too much more of yours and Mike's version of "improvement". A few more years of that kind of progress and we'll be joining the Canadian Football League.

KazooSkinsFan wrote:I don't necessarily predict Mike will win a SB here, I see him more as a Perdue. A solid coach who builds a winning attitude.

I'd prefer that he actually go coach Perdue .. and take his Son with him.

Reality suggests that a 14-27 record does not reflect a winning attitude. A 5-15 home record does not ingrain a winning attitude either.

And why would anyone want a coach that they didn't believe would het the job done? Why would anyone? That makes no sense.

KazooSkinsFan wrote: I just hope there's a Gibbs out there to finish the job. Though unlike Perdue, Shannahan did win it twice and now he has a great QB, I'm not conceding he won't.

My Grand Papa used to say "Hope in one hand, and spit in the other, and watch which one fills up the fastest".

RayNAustin wrote:

KazooSkinsFan wrote:My dispute with your point isn't so much that it has to be Mikey, it's that you're adopting the gnat attention span approach to rebuilding that is the biggest reason we can't stop sucking.

Contrary to the belief of armchair fans like Ray, 2 1/2 year is not long enough to overhaul a roster and build a winning organization when we were as bad as we were.

Once again, we have the "alternate reality" version of reality from you .. BIG SURPRISE. And by the way ... what is an "armchair fan" anyway? And what makes you or your opinions any different ... hmmm?

You may say others have a gnat's attention span, whilst you seem to have the memory of a gnat. Good job Pot ... meet Kettle.

KazooSkinsFan wrote:I expect to see progress this year, and I did. I expect to see more progress next year. If at the end of year four we're still 6-10 or so, then yeah, you're getting my attention. But advocating starting over now is just crazy.

You did? How did you come up with that? Oh yes. ... that new math that had Shanahan's record in denver at a 75% win ratio. Gotcha!

You don't like facts do you, Kaz? They tend to interfere with your otherwise very wise and solidly grounded opinions, don't they? Fact: this year so far, the win percentage is .333 ... while the previous 32 games are at .343. My dear Winston Smith, that is not progress. Up is not down ... left is not right ... ignorance is not strength ... and .333 is not an improvement on .343

Furthermore, I got news for you ..... the win-loss record of the 41 games under Shanahan (14-27) is WORSE than previous 41 games before Shanahan (17-24) That's not an opinion .. . nor is it speculation ... it's a hard cold documented fact which is indelibly ensconced in the record books of the NFL historical archives. And WORSE IS NOT IMPROVEMENT. It's not even "same old same old". In fact, one could justifiably say it might have been better had he never come here, if history were to make that judgment call. So, if we were so bad before, as you claim .. then we are just "mo bad" now. I don't think we can stand too much more of yours and Mike's version of "improvement". A few more years of that kind of progress and we'll be joining the Canadian Football League.

KazooSkinsFan wrote:I don't necessarily predict Mike will win a SB here, I see him more as a Perdue. A solid coach who builds a winning attitude.

I'd prefer that he actually go coach Perdue .. and take his Son with him.

Reality suggests that a 14-27 record does not reflect a winning attitude. A 5-15 home record does not ingrain a winning attitude either.

And why would anyone want a coach that they didn't believe would het the job done? Why would anyone? That makes no sense.

KazooSkinsFan wrote: I just hope there's a Gibbs out there to finish the job. Though unlike Perdue, Shannahan did win it twice and now he has a great QB, I'm not conceding he won't.

My Grand Papa used to say "Hope in one hand, and spit in the other, and watch which one fills up the fastest".

Supreme post where was this dude when everyone was saying what I was expressing was wrong. Damn what do you know, someone that is in line with my thoughts with facts no less.......

DaSkinz Baby wrote:

SkinsJock wrote::lol: DaSkinz - it'd be fun to get you a pass into the Redskins locker room and you tell a couple of those guys what you think

Don't think I haven't posted my same thoughts to London Fletcher, Santana Moss's facebook pages. I have also tweeted my thoughts to many via twitter and I have personally told my thoughts to Steve Bowen via Xbox Live where we play games online together. So I think I have done my part........

Pretty cool you talk to Bowen.. from what I've read that dude has a ton of heart and more will then most people I know. Hope his kiddo is doin good.

I was gonna add can't wait till tomorrow to get some real talk in here, this crap is getting boring!
... Stupid bye weeks. wake me when its over!

RayNAustin wrote:

SkinsFTW wrote:The problem with firing Shanahan is does anybody really think that Snyder can find anyone better?

At 14-27 ... and a 5-15 home record, that's not a question that would keep me up at night. ... how much worse could someone else be?

Uh... Jim Zorn? Steve Spurrier?

(Side note: OH YEAH. ELI MANNING IS HAVING ONE HECKUVA CRAP GAME TODAY!!! )

riggofan wrote:

RayNAustin wrote:

SkinsFTW wrote:The problem with firing Shanahan is does anybody really think that Snyder can find anyone better?

At 14-27 ... and a 5-15 home record, that's not a question that would keep me up at night. ... how much worse could someone else be?

Uh... Jim Zorn? Steve Spurrier?

(Side note: OH YEAH. ELI MANNING IS HAVING ONE HECKUVA CRAP GAME TODAY!!! )

You do realize both of them had better winning percentages than Mike Shanahan here right????

DaSkinz Baby wrote:

riggofan wrote:

RayNAustin wrote:

SkinsFTW wrote:The problem with firing Shanahan is does anybody really think that Snyder can find anyone better?

At 14-27 ... and a 5-15 home record, that's not a question that would keep me up at night. ... how much worse could someone else be?

Uh... Jim Zorn? Steve Spurrier?

You do realize both of them had better winning percentages than Mike Shanahan here right????

SO WHAT

no question that Mike, Kyle and Jim have not done well here .... and I'm not a fan of Mike as HC, but ...

are you suggesting that Spurrier or Zorn as HC for this franchise over the same period with these same players, would have a better W-L record?

SkinsJock wrote:

DaSkinz Baby wrote:

riggofan wrote:

RayNAustin wrote:

SkinsFTW wrote:The problem with firing Shanahan is does anybody really think that Snyder can find anyone better?

At 14-27 ... and a 5-15 home record, that's not a question that would keep me up at night. ... how much worse could someone else be?

Uh... Jim Zorn? Steve Spurrier?

You do realize both of them had better winning percentages than Mike Shanahan here right????

SO WHAT

no question that Mike, Kyle and Jim have not done well here .... and I'm not a fan of Mike as HC, but ...

are you suggesting that Spurrier or Zorn as HC for this franchise over the same period with these same players, would have a better W-L record?

I am only stating winning percentage wise Zorn and Spurrier have a better percentage. Now with that many points could be taken. I myself still feel from day one, Mike Shanahan coming here wasn't then and isn't now the man to right this ship. As people have said he like Gibbs is dated.

Yeah this guy is seriously arguing that the franchise was in better shape under Spurrier and Zorn. Ah, the good old days...!

riggofan wrote:Yeah this guy is seriously arguing that the franchise was in better shape under Spurrier and Zorn. Ah, the good old days...!

I never said that. I simply wonder where this team would be with say a Sean Payton or one of the Harborough brothers. Why keep using the same marketing ploys that don't work? First you bring back Gibbs, then you go further back in time with George Allen's son and another coach that is just as outdated as Gibbs. Snyder needs to learn that Football has become a young man's sport. Using retreads from the 80's and 90's isn't a formula that works here. Find a young hungry coach that the players will respect and play hard for, not a grandpa type coach that can't understand young players today. The John Elway's and Terrell Davis's are gone......It shouldn't take a rocket scientist to figure this one out.

SkinsJock wrote:

DaSkinz Baby wrote:

riggofan wrote:

RayNAustin wrote:

SkinsFTW wrote:The problem with firing Shanahan is does anybody really think that Snyder can find anyone better?

At 14-27 ... and a 5-15 home record, that's not a question that would keep me up at night. ... how much worse could someone else be?

Uh... Jim Zorn? Steve Spurrier?

You do realize both of them had better winning percentages than Mike Shanahan here right????

SO WHAT

no question that Mike, Kyle and Jim have not done well here .... and I'm not a fan of Mike as HC, but ...

are you suggesting that Spurrier or Zorn as HC for this franchise over the same period with these same players, would have a better W-L record?

Zorn, maybe.

SkinsJock wrote:

DaSkinz Baby wrote:

riggofan wrote:

RayNAustin wrote:

SkinsFTW wrote:The problem with firing Shanahan is does anybody really think that Snyder can find anyone better?

At 14-27 ... and a 5-15 home record, that's not a question that would keep me up at night. ... how much worse could someone else be?

Uh... Jim Zorn? Steve Spurrier?

You do realize both of them had better winning percentages than Mike Shanahan here right????

SO WHAT

no question that Mike, Kyle and Jim have not done well here .... and I'm not a fan of Mike as HC, but ...

are you suggesting that Spurrier or Zorn as HC for this franchise over the same period with these same players, would have a better W-L record?

well, they did put up better winning percentages with inferior talent so one could assume they'd do even better with this team...just sayin'

I very strongly, do not agree with the assumption that Spurrier or Zorn would have done as well as Shanahan


man oh man - that's a stretch


Mike is not doing well here but he's a lot better than those 2 as a HC in the NFL

SkinsJock wrote:I very strongly, do not agree with the assumption that Spurrier or Zorn would have done as well as Shanahan


man oh man - that's a stretch


Mike is not doing well here but he's a lot better than those 2 as a HC in the NFL

and he has the recent results to prove it

You can defend Shanahan all you want but you are what you are in football and since 2006 he's a sub .500 coach. 38 - 51 I believe. Now, prior to that there's no question the guy was an excellent coach and i live here in Denver and have witnessed it first hand but that's in the past. Whether or not Shanahan is a better coach for his career than Spurrier or Zorn is somewhat irrelevant, he's done worse since he's been here than either of those two and as a Skins' fan that's all I care about. For what's it worth to you, I haven't come out and said he should be fired but he shouldn't be defended either. And, Spurrier and Zorn did better than Shanny has done so i'm not sure what you are disagreeing with. They actually did so with the Danny interfering as well. If you want to argue we'll be better off in the long run then go for, I have no objection to that and as stated previously....you may be right.

LET ME BE CLEAR - SOME HERE NEED A LOT OF HELP

do not make silly mistakes - I am not 'defending' Shanahan

it's very clear to me that Shanahan is a much better HC than Zorn or Spurrier

using the stats is meaningless - Shaahan might not be doing well but he's an NFL HC - Spurrier and Zorn are NOT suited to be HC's in the NFL

are you kidding me - how come Zorn does not have a HC job? Do you here Zorn's name come up with all the new hires we're going to see soon?

find me someone (ANYONE) that thinks Spurrier is a better HC than Shanahan and I'll bet he's not a very highly regarded NFL person

SkinsJock wrote:find me someone (ANYONE) that thinks Spurrier is a better HC than Shanahan

SJ.. such a person does NOT exist

SkinsJock wrote:LET ME BE CLEAR - SOME HERE NEED A LOT OF HELP

do not make silly mistakes - I am not 'defending' Shanahan

it's very clear to me that Shanahan is a much better HC than Zorn or Spurrier

using the stats is meaningless - Shaahan might not be doing well but he's an NFL HC - Spurrier and Zorn are NOT suited to be HC's in the NFL

are you kidding me - how come Zorn does not have a HC job? Do you here Zorn's name come up with all the new hires we're going to see soon?

find me someone (ANYONE) that thinks Spurrier is a better HC than Shanahan and I'll bet he's not a very highly regarded NFL person

LET ME BE CLEAR!

Show me where I said they are better coaches? Now, move on and show me where I said these inferior coaches produced better winning percentages with inferior talent than Shanahan and you'll be on point. You need help! I hope everyone asking for patience is right and if Shanahan gets two more years we aren't in the same predicament the Broncos were in after the 08' season. I'm hoping Shanahan can reclaim what once made him a great coach and turn this franchise around but i'm not holding my breath on it.

oneman56 wrote:well, they did put up better winning percentages with inferior talent so one could assume they'd do even better with this team...just sayin ..

SORRY - I thought you were "assuming" that Zorn or Spurrier would be or might be, better NFL HCs than Shanahan

I'm not close to agreeing with that assumption - the % stats are just meaningless - those 2 are losers

what were you trying to say?

I thought the point was "with these same players." I'm not sure RGIII wouldn't have done better under one of the other guys.

Isn't it pretty stupid to be arguing who is a better coach when the team is still always in last please? Isn't this like deciding what's a better way to die, gun shot, stabbing, AIDS, cancer or drug overdose? It pretty much doesn't matter we are still losing.

back to reality - Mike and Kyle and Jim might not be here for much longer but they are not as much to blame as many are making out

there's plenty of reasons for the current state of the Redskins but it basically goes back to Snyder

these guys are turning things around - whether they're here or not is no big deal to me

this franchise is going to be good again soon BECAUSE Mike came here and changed the direction


I'll only add that Spurrier and Zorn could not do as well with RG3 and these guys as Mike has done

SkinsJock wrote:

oneman56 wrote:well, they did put up better winning percentages with inferior talent so one could assume they'd do even better with this team...just sayin ..

SORRY - I thought you were "assuming" that Zorn or Spurrier would be or might be, better NFL HCs than Shanahan

I'm not close to agreeing with that assumption - the % stats are just meaningless - those 2 are losers

what were you trying to say?

I don't think they are better coaches either. But, the comments above were directed towards worrying who we could find that's better than Shanahan if he were to be fired and it was noted that worse coaches provided better results so it's not something we should necessarily worry about. What i was specifically saying is that if those coaches had better winning records than Shanny then ONE could make an argument they'd do even better with this team then they did with Wuerfell, matthews and Campbell led teams...it's also why I said just sayin' at the end of my statement.

Deadskins wrote:I thought the point was "with these same players." I'm not sure RGIII wouldn't have done better under one of the other guys.

that's great - pull the other one


get back on the meds, please

oneman56 wrote:ONE could make an argument they'd do even better with this team then they did with Wuerfell, matthews and Campbell led teams.

Which was my point.

We shoulld fire him why keep a coach who is just here for the money and already shown since 2010 that he has lost a step?. We need a new hungry coach and a GM to try and fix things similar to what the rams are doing .

Fisher has no rings but is a guy who can get your team to feel motivated and thats what he is a motivated rebuilding coach still eagar to win a SB.

Rams have :

-Stacked alot of round picks
-A ton of cap for this next year FA
-Fans and team has energy
-And the D is playing very good



Fisher has built a very good mentality just need more talent and another year. So that is the difference between us and them they have picks and cap and a movtivated team we do not . Fire Shanny he only got RG3 to save him more time and even that wont work look at shannys history and with us what makes you believe he can do better because in my mind 2010 should of been a rebuilding year and this year is on offense and on defense its still horrible so we wasted our time with the D.

Fire Shanny

- Hire a GM'
-Hire a coordinator maybe from GB or Bmore or SF or hire Chip Kelly I dont want a coach whos won a SB.
-Get the 4-3 back