The-Hogs.net - Washington Football Discussion, Redskins to Commanders Era

Kilmer72 wrote:

Countertrey wrote:

cowboykillerzRED wrote:If we sign PM and draft as high as RGIII trade or no- what's the problem w Payton (one of the best to play the game at qb) grooming him?

There is no "problem" with it. It would be WONDERFUL for RGIII to have a mentor like Peyton Manning to learn from... and, RGIII knows he would be a much better quarterback for it...

The PROBLEM is that I don't believe that Manning would stand for it. If he would, why wouldn't he just stay in Indy? RGIII is not going to stay on the bench for very long... no matter whom he sits behind. By the time anyone decides to sign Manning... he will already know if our bench contains Grossman... or RGIII... If it's the latter... he's not signing with Washington. IMO...

I might be confused but didn't RGI say something like if he has to wait a few years and be groomed he will wait? If that is the case why would that freak out PM?

Because Manning is a competitor... and he knows that any quarterback worth paying will be a competitor... no matter what RG says now, he is going to chafe until he is playing, and he's going to push to play. I'm not saying he's not being honest... I'm saying that Manning KNOWS far more about the psyche of a really good quarterback than you do. That day when Manning has a sprained right thumb, and can't grip the ball... and RG comes in... do you really think the rook's going to want to sit? What if he has a 350 yard, 3 TD game in shredding Dallas? You think the fans are going to be like "We want Manning"? Seriously? If there is a blue chip rook on the roster... Manning isn't coming. He's also going to want a bit more talent in the Receiving corps, including a least one explosive receiver who can get off of press coverage at the los, and he's going to want some improved Pass Pro along the O-Line before he comes here.

I don't see it happening... period. The only thing we can offer Manning is money... and I don't think that motivates him any more.

Ok now I see where you are coming from. I really do not want Manning here anyway just because I am afraid he will get killed here in the NFC east. Especially behind our Oline.

jr_uscg wrote:I like RGIII, but this guy will be the second pick to go in the draft. The Browns are talking about moving up just to get him and I can't see giving all your picks away for one guy. Peyton won't cost us any draft picks. Plus with two high dollar primere QBs we would have no room with the cap. We can't have everything. So what's it going to be? I like Shanny, but with losing seasons he needs results this year. This guy has a huge ego and it's killing him. Our best bet is Peyton and let him win us a championship.

This argument is a straw man. First, we have plenty of cap room... I have no idea where you get that from. If we luck out and get RG III... we won't be pursuing Manning... because he won't have any interest in coming here (if there's any interest to begin with... we are still short on the talent Manning would need to be effective)


The Browns are not talking about moving up to get RGIII... that's the fans, and the blogs.

The Redskins are not talking about moving up to get RGIII... that's the fans and the blogs.

NO TEAM is talking about moving up to get RGIII... that's all speculation by us, by ESPN, by TSN, by the Post, and by YOU, and ME. No team with a competent GM will tip it's hand before it's time.

Beyond that, the draft will be long OVER before anyone on any team that truly needs a quarterback will make a move on him, because no one will know if he has any arm strength until May... AFTER the draft.

PLUS rookies don't make outrageous salaries out the gates like the once did.. The new agreement took care of that. So yes we can afford a vet qb RGIII and make moves in FA. Jus sayin

Irn-Bru wrote:

Jeremy81 wrote:I'm just talking about giving up draft picks for a quarterback...whether it's moving up in the draft for campbell or just giving up picks for McNabb...

Were you? Looks like you were being more specific than that:

Jeremy81 wrote:because trading a bunch of picks to move up in the draft for a qb has worked so well for us in the past?

But that aside . . . So we used two draft picks to move from the 3rd round to the late 1st to grab Campbell, and we traded two picks to acquire McNabb. And you're saying that those two transactions somehow tell us that trading up 3-4 picks in this year's draft is a bad idea because . . .? Why?

Is there an argument here, or do you just want to throw around empty one-liners?

Ryan Leaf was universally regarded as a top ten pick

So was Peyton Manning. Unless you want to play the lottery, which a dozen teams play every year and only one team has ever won in probably the last 20 years (the Pats with Tom Brady), you have to draft a QB early on.

If I knew how to sit and copy and paste, and quote certain areas of someones post I would...but I dont. No empty one-liners, read the past posts before that. I was responding to a previous post, just arguing the fact that just because rg3 is universally regarded as a top five pick (which I agree with by the way) doesnt mean that it always works out.

As far as your issue with me not wanting to trade more picks to move up in the draft, I just dont think we can afford to trade a bunch of picks to get a qb that might or might not be a great player. Im not saying it absolutely will not work if the redskins decide to go that route, but I am saying that I PERSONALLY don't think it's the right avenue to go...so go ahead and copy and paste snippets from a two page debate if you'd like, but it won't change the fact that I think trading up is the wrong way to go. If rg3 falls to number six, ill be ecstatic. We need all the draft picks we can get

Can someone please explain to me when our time will be to grab an elite qb? Are we going to keep going draft after draft and be scared to trade up to grab a potential elite qb because of trading picks or not trusting our evaluation of the player. This just doesnt make sense to me. We need a qb, good ones are usually in the top 5, what the hell are we waiting on. If we dont grab one this year we potentially may have a top 6 again next yr. I dont want to watch another season like that. Everyone needs to stop thinking about well what if hes a bust or what if we trade to much. Who cares, make a move cause we cant get much worse. We can take care of a lot in FA. We are not that far off. We are a couple of Olineman and a receiver away. Im tired of not having a qb. This is my opinion

This is how I would love this offseason to unfold. We get P.M, Carl Nicks, Dwayne Bowe and swing D. Jackson in FA. Hell, I would even love Rodgers back. We trade up to secure RG3,(picks 1,3 and nexts yrs 1 and 4) if thats what it would have to take. We draft a olineman with our 2nd and depth with everything else. We would be legit and feared with PM while RG3 learns from the best for a couple years. Then by the time RG3 starts, we are back in buisness with a full draft again. Its the best of everything and its really a possibility. I think thats easly an extra 5 wins

I FIRMLY support post one...
Post two?
Is a far off dream that we share... I'm ready for a REAL qb and those wide outs are a possibility if we play it right. DO IT!!!!! I jus hope for RG... Add some great FAs (I believe we will) and even PM to train said future STAR I will go ape sh-- crazy and drink till I drop in utter joy. If we flop everywhere in FA and sign RGIII... Same outcome not gonna front my left nut is in the mix should they at st L want it.

If we get Peyton Manning, which I do and a lot of my friends in the office. We will not go after RGIII. It's not going to happen, done!

Let's say we have both Peyton and RGIII. RGIII would get A LOT more playing time than he would if there wasn't any worries about Mannings neck.

Do you think Peyton will play a lot in the preseason? Nope.
Assuming Peyton makes the offense explode, do you think that he gets sat down in garbage time? Yep.
If RGIII goes on that Aaron Rodgers plan and gets handed the keys to a highly potent offense after 3 years, do U think he complains? Nope.

RGIII has the maturity to handle such a situation and to flourish in it. If we get Peyton, might as well make the push for RGIII. Completely solidify this QB situation for the next 12 years.

Folks, this isn't happening, and I can give you two words for why.... Donovan McNabb.

The Shannahans have already proven they WILL NOT alter their offense to fit the skills and talents of a big name QB. Peyton is NOT going to ANY team that will not basically allow him to install and run the Indy offense. He is NOT learning a new system. It's that simple. Therefore, he's not coming to DC

jr_uscg wrote:If we get Peyton Manning, which I do and a lot of my friends in the office. We will not go after RGIII. It's not going to happen, done!

LOL and you know this how?

There's going to be so many disappointed Redskins fans when Manning doesn't sign here.

CanesSkins26 wrote:There's going to be so many disappointed Redskins fans when Manning doesn't sign here.

In spite of all the rampant speculation, I haven't heard many Skins fans who honestly believe he is going to end up here. Its just talk. Now if Manning goes to Arizona or Miami or wherever and plays like the Peyton Manning of old, you will definitely have some disappointed Skins fans crying "what if??"

Btw I'm sure some of you read Sally Jenkins today writing on how the Skins HAVE to get Manning at all cost. That pretty much does it for me. We should definitely not pursue Manning at all.

jr_uscg wrote:If we get Peyton Manning, which I do and a lot of my friends in the office. We will not go after RGIII. It's not going to happen, done!

Here are some facts...

Every source I have seen believes that Mannng will not sign a contract with ANYONE until MAY... that is the earliest that he'll be able to demonstrate that he can wing the ball.

The NFL Draft is in APRIL

The Redskins will have a quarterback no later than then.

Countertrey wrote:The PROBLEM is that I don't believe that Manning would stand for it. If he would, why wouldn't he just stay in Indy?

Because he can't "just stay" if he has no contract.

I hear alot of folks mention the Shannahans having to give up some control of the offense to Peyton, being one of the biggest changes that would need to take place for this to even have a shot.

One thing to consider is the impact that it will have on the offense's players.

With all of Peyton's pre-snap antics, audibles and "sugar huddles", players will have ANOTHER huge learning curve. You dont learn all that in 1 pre-season and have it work to the efficiency Manning was accustomed to. We're talking about an audible system where the game pretty much gets called at the line. All of those audibles would have to be created for this offense, THEN , everyone would have to learn what all that BS means.

Not to mention having the linemen in their stances that long, may create undue fatigue for a for a zone blocking scheme that centers on mobility. Im not sure they get conditioned to that in one season.

All of that being said, you pretty much have to let Manning run the offense this way. Calling the game at the line of scrimmage is 50% of what makes him great. But the bigger adjustment will be for the players, not the coaches.

I'm still taking a " wait and see" approach with Manning anyway. We already have a QB with a weak arm, no need to add another. If his arm strength returns , its a no-brainer, but you still draft a QB.

jmooney wrote:I hear alot of folks mention the Shannahans having to give up some control of the offense to Peyton, being one of the biggest changes that would need to take place for this to even have a shot.

One thing to consider is the impact that it will have on the offense's players.

With all of Peyton's pre-snap antics, audibles and "sugar huddles", players will have ANOTHER huge learning curve. You dont learn all that in 1 pre-season and have it work to the efficiency Manning was accustomed to. We're talking about an audible system where the game pretty much gets called at the line. All of those audibles would have to be created for this offense, THEN , everyone would have to learn what all that BS means.

Not to mention having the linemen in their stances that long, may create undue fatigue for a for a zone blocking scheme that centers on mobility. Im not sure they get conditioned to that in one season.

All of that being said, you pretty much have to let Manning run the offense this way. Calling the game at the line of scrimmage is 50% of what makes him great. But the bigger adjustment will be for the players, not the coaches.

I'm still taking a " wait and see" approach with Manning anyway. We already have a QB with a weak arm, no need to add another. If his arm strength returns , its a no-brainer, but you still draft a QB.

+1

Joe Gibbs said something similar in the Washington Post. http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/dc- ... sports_pop

He said that if the Redskins bring in Manning, they need to also let him bring that offense with him Gibbs doesn't believe you will have the same success trying to make him fit a WC style offense. **Kyle**

If that's the case, the team that picks up Manning, might as well make him the QB and Offensive Coordinator and picking up Reggie Wayne and Jeff Saturday.

BTW - I agree with the thought that signing Manning would mean that we would not be bringing in RG3. For one, we'll need the pics. For two, RG3 is the kind of athlete that you get onto the field right away to take advantage of his athleticism & youth while he still has it. A player's mobility is at its peak in his youth. If, you're going to have a player sit for 3 years, you lose the value of that playmaking ability.

Signing Peyton makes drafting a Tannenhill the win win. It allows the Tannenhill-type player to learn from a HOF QB much like Aaron Rodgers did.

With all of this being said, I doubt we sign Peyton--so much of this is moot in my view.

People who have seen Peyton Manning throw since the end of the regular season have told the Indianapolis Star's Bob Kravitz that he doesn't yet look like an NFL quarterback.
Kravitz actually used the phrase "noodle arm" at one point. "But that doesn't mean he never will [have the arm strength] ... or that he won't in a couple of months," Kravitz adds. "This thing is going to take time." It's an interesting report, but it doesn't add much to the narrative. We knew Manning's neck was structurally sound enough to take a hit, but that he still needs to build strength in his triceps. NFL Network's Jason LaCanfora suspects Manning won't gain enough arm strength to sign until after draft plans are made, leaving the Seahawks and Cardinals as favorites to land him. "I don't see [agent] Tom Condon putting Peyton Manning in Washington," added LaCanfora. "There's just not talent there."

I post this ONLY for the fact that JLC is such a f-ing pud.

chiefhog44 wrote:People who have seen Peyton Manning throw since the end of the regular season have told the Indianapolis Star's Bob Kravitz that he doesn't yet look like an NFL quarterback.
Kravitz actually used the phrase "noodle arm" at one point. "But that doesn't mean he never will [have the arm strength] ... or that he won't in a couple of months," Kravitz adds. "This thing is going to take time." It's an interesting report, but it doesn't add much to the narrative. We knew Manning's neck was structurally sound enough to take a hit, but that he still needs to build strength in his triceps. NFL Network's Jason LaCanfora suspects Manning won't gain enough arm strength to sign until after draft plans are made, leaving the Seahawks and Cardinals as favorites to land him. "I don't see [agent] Tom Condon putting Peyton Manning in Washington," added LaCanfora. "There's just not talent there."

I post this ONLY for the fact that JLC is such a f-ing pud.

JLC is an azzhat... the problem is... have you noticed how similar his article is to what I have been saying???? You may not like it... but who has better WR and OL talent??? Us, or those two teams??? I hate being plagarised... by an azzhat. And, I don't even get paid, or spend hours with hot NFLN babes...

Jeremy81 wrote:I was responding to a previous post, just arguing the fact that just because rg3 is universally regarded as a top five pick (which I agree with by the way) doesnt mean that it always works out.

OK. But do you know what also doesn't always work out? Bringing in a series of so-so prospects or past-their-prime veterans from around the league year after year.

Pick any strategy and I can give you examples of when it didn't work. So the important question is: which strategy tends to work out for teams that choose it, over the long run? The answer to that is, the smart money is on scouting your guy and getting him early in the draft. Very rarely do teams find a diamond in the rough.

As far as your issue with me not wanting to trade more picks to move up in the draft, I just dont think we can afford to trade a bunch of picks to get a qb that might or might not be a great player.

Well it's either that or go 1-15 to make sure we get a top spot. Occasionally a guy slips into the late 1st or early 2nd round, but even then it's because he carries with him a decent amount of risk, risk that can't be simply ignored.

Im not saying it absolutely will not work if the redskins decide to go that route, but I am saying that I PERSONALLY don't think it's the right avenue to go...so go ahead and copy and paste snippets from a two page debate if you'd like, but it won't change the fact that I think trading up is the wrong way to go. If rg3 falls to number six, ill be ecstatic. We need all the draft picks we can get

RGIII is not going to fall to six. Shanny is not planning on holding at six and drafting RGIII. I won't stop you from hoping that it will happen, but you might as well go out and buy a lottery ticket if you are feeling that l lucky . . .

^+1...

OTOH... who expected Orakpo to last until 12?

Countertrey wrote:^+1...

OTOH... who expected Orakpo to last until 12?

Sure . . . and Aaron Rogers slid to 24 when he could've gone first overall. Of course, it's a little easier for a stud DE to fall than for a QB to fall.

(It's also starting to look like Orakpo might have been overvalued at 12. )

It's not impossible that RG would fall to us. But who in their right mind would plan on that?

That said, I'll be the last person to complain if we sit at six and RG is still on the board. Unless we don't draft him.

Its not that far fetched...just need cleveland to fall in love with trent richardson. Hopefully he has a stellar combine