Atheism?

[Deadskins]

It doesn't make logical sense to me.

It doesn't have to.

[SouthLondonRedskin]

Atheism....?

God, I love it!!!!

[Cappster]

It doesn't make logical sense to me.

It doesn't have to.

Ah, but it does. It is hard for me to put blind faith into something that I want to believe exists. Proof is in the pudding, but unfortunately in the case of God, he doesn't show us the pudding and wants us to believe there is pudding when there is no evidence to suggest that the pudding is there.

[Deadskins]

Proof is in the pudding, but unfortunately in the case of God, he doesn't show us the pudding and wants us to believe there is pudding when there is no evidence to suggest that the pudding is there.

Again, no evidence that you have seen (or realized that you've seen).

[Cappster]

Proof is in the pudding, but unfortunately in the case of God, he doesn't show us the pudding and wants us to believe there is pudding when there is no evidence to suggest that the pudding is there.

Again, no evidence that you have seen (or realized that you've seen).

There is no tangible evidence. Show me how God can be proven scientifically and I will be a believer. Until then, I can only question the existence of said being.

[Deadskins]

Proof is in the pudding, but unfortunately in the case of God, he doesn't show us the pudding and wants us to believe there is pudding when there is no evidence to suggest that the pudding is there.

Again, no evidence that you have seen (or realized that you've seen).

There is no tangible evidence. Show me how God can be proven scientifically and I will be a believer. Until then, I can only question the existence of said being.

So, you're saying that if you had a biblical experience such as Moses and the burning bush, parting of the Red Sea, or witnessed Jesus raising Lazarus, you would still ask for scientific proof, if there was no evidence after the fact?

[langleyparkjoe]

So, you're saying that if you had a biblical experience such as Moses and the burning bush, parting of the Red Sea, or witnessed Jesus raising Lazarus, you would still ask for scientific proof, if there was no evidence after the fact?

First thing I'd do is go to the nearest restroom and trash my stained drawaz.

I'd be like .. did.. did he... did he just raise the dead???

[cvillehog]

Moses and the burning bush

parting of the Red Sea

Jesus raising Lazarus

You do know that none of that crap actually happened, right? At least not as relayed in the Bible.

Thanks to advancements in science and general knowledge, you and I know we're looking at rays of sunlight streaking through clouds, but our ancestors simply didn't know any better and created mythologies to explain such every day phenomena.

We have a word for people who hear voices, and it's not "prophet."

We also know that the name "Red Sea" was actually a mistranslation of Reed Sea, a much smaller water way prone to drying up temporarily with the low tide. (For what it's worth, this is what Wikipedia says about it "General scholarly opinion is that the Exodus story combines a number of traditions, one of them at the "Reed Sea" (Lake Timsah, with the Egyptians defeated when the wheels of their chariots become clogged) and another at the far deeper Red Sea, allowing the more dramatic telling of events.")

[Cappster]

Proof is in the pudding, but unfortunately in the case of God, he doesn't show us the pudding and wants us to believe there is pudding when there is no evidence to suggest that the pudding is there.

Again, no evidence that you have seen (or realized that you've seen).

There is no tangible evidence. Show me how God can be proven scientifically and I will be a believer. Until then, I can only question the existence of said being.

So, you're saying that if you had a biblical experience such as Moses and the burning bush, parting of the Red Sea, or witnessed Jesus raising Lazarus, you would still ask for scientific proof, if there was no evidence after the fact?

What I am asking for now is scientific proof that God does exist. If I saw something like that, I would still wonder if it was God or something else that caused those things to happen. Well, that is, unless, said deity could prove that he was God. How would you know that it wasn't an imposter? Someone posing to be said God and doing magnificent things to get you to believe in them. Isn't that what the anti-christ is supposed to do?

[UK Skins Fan]

The season is nearly here, the season is nearly here, the season is nearly here, the season is nearly here, the season is nearly here, the season is nearly here, the season is nearly here, the season is nearly here, the season is nearly here, the season is nearly here, the season is nearly here, the season is nearly here, the season is nearly here,the season is nearly here, the season is nearly here, the season is nearly here.

I shall continue to put my faith in the Redskins.

[Deadskins]

Moses and the burning bush

parting of the Red Sea

Jesus raising Lazarus

You do know that none of that crap actually happened, right? At least not as relayed in the Bible.

Says you.

[Irn-Bru]

I shall continue to put my faith in the Redskins.

There's a saying, "I put my faith in Allah, but I tie my camel to the post."

I assume with the Redskins the equivalent would be something like, "I put my faith in the Redskins, but I stock my fridge with beer for post-game consolation."

[cvillehog]

Moses and the burning bush

parting of the Red Sea

Jesus raising Lazarus

You do know that none of that crap actually happened, right? At least not as relayed in the Bible.

Says you.

And, you know, Biblical scholars and such. And Wikipedia! When has that site ever been wrong?!

[chiefhog44]

That was a very moving story that Deadskins posted about his mother's passing.

Today, I am reminded of my parents story of losing their first born.

On January 4, 1958, a healthy baby girl was born to my parents. During the night, I Dad, a devout Catholic, was awakened during the night and sought the priest who was on duty at the hospital. He wanted he daughter baptised immediately. The priest pleaded with my father that there was no reason because the baby was competely healthy. The baptism could wait until the morning, but my father persisted and the priest gave in and baptized the baby that night. In the morning, my parents' baby girl was dead. My Dad believes that it was God who woke him in the night to have their baby, my sister, baptized.

What's my take? Knowing that my parents are devout Catholics and believe in everything just about everything the church teaches (yes, we have large families), I don't think that my parents could have functioned in life had they not baptized my sister. I believe that it was a gift from God, that woke my father. I don't believe that his happening validates my father and mother's Catholic faith, but was simply a gift to them for whatever reason.

Though I believe in a personal God, this occurance doesn't directly prove to me that there is a God. I believe that my Dad's intuition can be explained other ways. Do I believe it God was responsible for my Dad summoning the Chaplain? Yes, but is because I believe. There is no rational reason why I believe that God exists. I just simply do. Like almost everybody, I have had pain and suffering in my life, but I never stop believing in God and I never expect him to deliver me from evil, though I do ask.

I can never argue with someone that they should believe in God or that they shouldn't. To me, it doesn't matter what another person believes. I am all for discussing though. I am all for hearing and reading stories of faith like Deadskins posted, but I am all for hearing stories of nonfaith. I think that we can learn from each other in honest discussion.

Deadskins, thanks for posting your story and sharing what it meant to you. It has helped me in reflecting on my own beliefs. I believe that
God gave you a gift that night and since it has strengthened yuor faith, he was a very powerful gift indeed.

Darthmonk, you sound like a deep thinker and since you raise religious questions on the boards, I believe that you are aware that a transcendent reality does exist - you might not believe it exists, but from what you write, my take is that you are very aware that transcendent reality does exist. Take off the lenses of the religious world and see the reality that you know is there. I believe that this reality is God, but that doesn't mean that my perception is correct for others. Who has the monopoly on spiritual truth?

To the Atheists and Agnostics - there is nothing wrong witha believe in "soul sleep" in my book. That ain't me, but who am I to knock someone for believing that you live, die and that's it. Sounds pretty rational.

So how shall we live? Do unto others as you would have others do unto you - the most powerful witness on earth is just that - Don't have to have religion to do it.

Great story, and what I am about to say is in NO means a slight against beliefs held, because, when it comes down to it, what do I know? I also understand that the timing of this story was at a time when there was a belief among those in the Catholic church that if a baby was not baptized before death, then the baby would be held in limbo, neither gaining access to Heaven nor Hell.

Since that time, the Catholic church has changed their stance on this. Now, baptism is not considered necessary to go to Heaven for babies to avoid limbo. Without discounting the story above, understand that God was a constant from the time this event occurred to the time the Catholic Church changed their stance. Organized religion changed, but not God. So I would challenge (as respectfully as possible), the notion that a father was awoken in the middle of the night from an entity such as God to get a baby baptized before death. As deturmined by the church 40 years later, the Bible does not state nor does God believe, that a baby needs to be baptized to avoid limbo, it was just a midevil theological hypothesis. So the word of God was the same now as it always has been. So if that's the case, what entity woke the father up if God has never held the believe of baptism to avoid limbo. The church has always used fear to gain and keep members, and this is another example.

.http://www.religionnewsblog.com/18025/limbo

This to me is one of many issues I have with organized religion, and one of the many reasons that younger people are turning their backs to this non-sense.

My friends often say that they are Athiests. What does that even mean? Do you not celebrate Chirstmas? Do you not believe that there was a person (or many), who have walked this Earth, creating and teaching principles and ethics to hold yourself accountable for? It's not that far fetched to think that there was. I would be a hypocrite if I said I was an Athiest and I celebrated any kind of holiday. It's organized religion that has twisted up a very good message into something that, when exposed, seems more like a greedy and opportunistic entity feeding on the fear of humanity. Is it that you dont think that some entity could have created the planet, sun, the stars, the moon and the galaxy? Or simply that you don't know for sure so until its proven otherwise, you choose to not believe at all?

I have much more to say on this, but am going to stop and listen.

[Deadskins]

Moses and the burning bush

parting of the Red Sea

Jesus raising Lazarus

You do know that none of that crap actually happened, right? At least not as relayed in the Bible.

Says you.

And, you know, Biblical scholars and such. And Wikipedia! When has that site ever been wrong?!

There are always people trying to prove and disprove stories in the Bible. Many want to show a scientific explanation of how something might have occured. Finding a logical explanation for a "miracle" doesn't mean that it happened that way, or that God didn't make it happen. Conversely, Biblical stories might be just that, stories. It's possible they are fictional, to try and relate an idea. But, for the purposes of my back and forth with Cappster, I wanted to know if he personally witnessed what he believed was a miracle, or had God speak to him, would that satisfy him, absent scientific evidence.

[cowboykillerzRGiii]

Let me know when they find Noahs Ark

[Cappster]

Moses and the burning bush

parting of the Red Sea

Jesus raising Lazarus

You do know that none of that crap actually happened, right? At least not as relayed in the Bible.

Says you.

And, you know, Biblical scholars and such. And Wikipedia! When has that site ever been wrong?!

There are always people trying to prove and disprove stories in the Bible. Many want to show a scientific explanation of how something might have occured. Finding a logical explanation for a "miracle" doesn't mean that it happened that way, or that God didn't make it happen. Conversely, Biblical stories might be just that, stories. It's possible they are fictional, to try and relate an idea. But, for the purposes of my back and forth with Cappster, I wanted to know if he personally witnessed what he believed was a miracle, or had God speak to him, would that satisfy him, absent scientific evidence.

If I see a UFO flying around in the sky, am I to believe that is the work of God or am I going to try and figure out what I just witnessed? Saying something is true without any definitive data to back it up with is a logical fallacy. Just, because you cannot explain something at that moment in time doesn't mean there isn't a logical explanation behind the phenomena. Another example would be Northern Lights in Alaska. One could see it and think its the work of some deity, when it is caused by natural forces. The point I am trying to make is don't blindly believe anything unless you can provide irrefutable evidence to its existence.

[Irn-Bru]

Saying something is true without any definitive data to back it up with is a logical fallacy.

The irony here is very funny.

[Cappster]

Saying something is true without any definitive data to back it up with is a logical fallacy.

The irony here is very funny.

I don't know what you are getting at.

[Irn-Bru]

Saying something is true without any definitive data to back it up with is a logical fallacy.

The irony here is very funny.

I don't know what you are getting at.

A logical fallacy is something that by definition has nothing to do with data.

Also, the claim, "saying something is true without any definitive data to back it up is a logical fallacy," itself lacks "definitive data to back it up," so it's self-referentially fallacious — if we take the idea seriously.

[Deadskins]

Moses and the burning bush

parting of the Red Sea

Jesus raising Lazarus

You do know that none of that crap actually happened, right? At least not as relayed in the Bible.

Says you.

And, you know, Biblical scholars and such. And Wikipedia! When has that site ever been wrong?!

There are always people trying to prove and disprove stories in the Bible. Many want to show a scientific explanation of how something might have occured. Finding a logical explanation for a "miracle" doesn't mean that it happened that way, or that God didn't make it happen. Conversely, Biblical stories might be just that, stories. It's possible they are fictional, to try and relate an idea. But, for the purposes of my back and forth with Cappster, I wanted to know if he personally witnessed what he believed was a miracle, or had God speak to him, would that satisfy him, absent scientific evidence.

If I see a UFO flying around in the sky, am I to believe that is the work of God or am I going to try and figure out what I just witnessed? Saying something is true without any definitive data to back it up with is a logical fallacy. Just, because you cannot explain something at that moment in time doesn't mean there isn't a logical explanation behind the phenomena. Another example would be Northern Lights in Alaska. One could see it and think its the work of some deity, when it is caused by natural forces. The point I am trying to make is don't blindly believe anything unless you can provide irrefutable evidence to its existence.

Anyway, my premise was that this was a form of contact with God that you would accept as divine, and yet there would be no physical proof, at least that could be scientifically quantified. Yet, even though you witnessed it first-hand, you would not believe it, because it could not be scientifically quantified. Kind of a paradox, if you will.

[cowboykillerzRGiii]

Another interesting topic: "visions" of heaven, the gates (funny god would need a gate huh), Jesus etc when people die or in a dream... then it changes them.
No factual evidence to support it...
No data,
No science..
Just the "faith" one has, which ironically is the most "reasonable" explanation for "seeing" anything.
Is it God?
Or the chambers of ones unconscious mind providing what the concious selfwants to see?

*Then the debate can be had- why are these chosen few given the sights? Am I not worthy?

[Red_One43]

Let me know when they find Noahs Ark

Why stop there? How about the the Ark of the Covenant.

[Deadskins]

Let me know when they find Noahs Ark

Why stop there? How about the the Ark of the Covenant.

It's in Ethiopia.




































Or maybe a US government warehouse.

[Red_One43]

Great story, and what I am about to say is in NO means a slight against beliefs held, because, when it comes down to it, what do I know? I also understand that the timing of this story was at a time when there was a belief among those in the Catholic church that if a baby was not baptized before death, then the baby would be held in limbo, neither gaining access to Heaven nor Hell.

No slight taken. I appreciate your thoughts. I am going to respond to your comments and expound on some of my beliefs, so I will be addressing other comments on this thread from others.

Since that time, the Catholic church has changed their stance on this. Now, baptism is not considered necessary to go to Heaven for babies to avoid limbo. Without discounting the story above, understand that God was a constant from the time this event occurred to the time the Catholic Church changed their stance. Organized religion changed, but not God. So I would challenge (as respectfully as possible), the notion that a father was awoken in the middle of the night from an entity such as God to get a baby baptized before death. As deturmined by the church 40 years later, the Bible does not state nor does God believe, that a baby needs to be baptized to avoid limbo, it was just a midevil theological hypothesis. So the word of God was the same now as it always has been. So if that's the case, what entity woke the father up if God has never held the believe of baptism to avoid limbo. The church has always used fear to gain and keep members, and this is another example.

I agree that the Bible never supported the Catholic belief that infants were not saved. I have long since left the Catholic Church and I left in a bitter fashion, but I have since come to respect people's faith wether I agree with it or not. I look at Mother Teresa and to me, she is a living example of Christ - Catholic - who undoubtedly believed things that I believed were nonsense. Whether supported in the Bible or not - whether a gift form God or not, My parents were able to have a ritual performed that allowed them to have peace of mind for rest of their minds. I believe it was from God, but would never try to convince anyone that it really was from God. My parents believe it and it gives them peace - who am I to tell them that they are mistaken that it was just a considence or an act of energy brought together by thoughts (loose explanation of the Celestine Prophecy)

http://www.religionnewsblog.com/18025/limbo

This to me is one of many issues I have with organized religion, and one of the many reasons that younger people are turning their backs to this non-sense.

Diana Butler Bass in her book Christianity after Religion would disagree that young folks are turning their backs on "organized" religion. She would say that they are turning their backs on traditonal religion and that a new spiritual new awakening. Butler provides a large volume of stats to support her claim. She actually returned to her United Methodist roots after exploring other more progressive denominations.

http://erb.kingdomnow.org/diana-butler- ... re-review/

My friends often say that they are Athiests. What does that even mean? Do you not celebrate Chirstmas? Do you not believe that there was a person (or many), who have walked this Earth, creating and teaching principles and ethics to hold yourself accountable for? It's not that far fetched to think that there was. I would be a hypocrite if I said I was an Athiest and I celebrated any kind of holiday. It's organized religion that has twisted up a very good message into something that, when exposed, seems more like a greedy and opportunistic entity feeding on the fear of humanity. Is it that you dont think that some entity could have created the planet, sun, the stars, the moon and the galaxy? Or simply that you don't know for sure so until its proven otherwise, you choose to not believe at all?

I have learned that to study a religion, one would be best served to study the core beliefs from the founder of the religion - not what evolved from the founder's original teachings. What did Jesus say? The Buddha? Mohammed? Abraham? Isaac? Jacob? A little bit of historical background information would help too. Did organizd really religion really twist up every good message?

There seems to be one constant in the major religions: "Do unto other as others as you would have others do unto you." (Matt 7:12) "That which is hateful to you, do not unto another (Hillel). "The Golden Rule."

Is that enough for people to live on? What happens when you die? Why does God choose one group of people over another? Millions of questions. Answers abound. Groups form based on answers. I haven't began to touch on the which religion has the best manifestation of the transcendent reality? Is there really a transcendent reality? Wrong or right, organized religion will never die. If you tear down the institution, folks would only build it back again. Most folks need community organizations and those community organizations usually are composed of folks who believe the same. Organized religion is inevitable for most folks.

I have much more to say on this, but am going to stop and listen.

There is so much to say on this topic. For me, I have accepted that "Love your neighbor and love God" is all that I need. Don't care if you are atheist, Christian, Buddhist, Muslim, Agnostic, Jew or any other religion. I do care if you are a good neighbor and if you are not a good neighbor, I will try to love them, but I am not perfect, but I hope to grow each day.

What will happen when I die? Don't care to know - I am too busy trying to love my neighbor and loving God. Does God exist? Don't need proof, but I respect those who do. I just wonder why some folks who don't believe need to go around challenging those who do. To me, that speaks of someone that is seeking something more. Even my simple belief would eventually spark a debate or further definitions from others. This last section is just and explanation of my beliefs and not a comment on what you wrote.