The-Hogs.net - Washington Football Discussion, Redskins to Commanders Era

The Hogster wrote:Asked: "Mike, if you said Dock and Kory were close in competition. Well Kory has struggled every week. Have you considered bringing Dock back, and if not, why?" Says that Lichensteiger is better than Dockery. Point Blank. If Dock was better he would be out there.

chiefhog44 wrote:

tribeofjudah wrote:

What a terrible decision.

Mike Shanahan is an experienced, veteran coach. How could he possibly do that?

No, I’m not talking about the Rex for Donovan thing. (More on that tomorrow.)

I’m talking about his decision a few minutes earlier, his decision regarding what turned out to be McNabb’s last play.


With 2:15 remaining, the Redskins trailed the Lions 28-25. They had two timeouts left and it was fourth and 10 at the Washington 28.

Shanahan decided to leave his offense on the field and try to convert the fourth down. He did this rather than punting the ball and trusting that his defense could hold the Lions without a first down. With the two timeouts and the two-minute warning to go, the Lions could have been punting the ball back to the Redskins with just under two minutes left.

Instead, McNabb was sacked and the Lions kicked a field goal. That triggered the decision to insert Grossman in the lineup, creating the firestorm of controversy we’re experiencing this week.

http://www.csnwashington.com/11/01/10/A ... eedID=6355

Oh I loved the decision to go for it because they got help from the two minute warning, which, had they punted, it would have been close, and would have allowed the lions to real off about 40 more seconds, which, according to these odds makers, probably would have put the game out of reach. 3 points in that situation was no big deal because they would have most likely kicked a field goal from where they would have ended up after the punt anyway and the clock would have been at 1:15 instead. I know that's not exactly what this guy is saying but just wanted to comment on it.

I couldn't disagree more. The decision to go for it was the second stupidest decision Shanahan made Sunday. Punting would have made us only need to drive far enough to kick a game-tying FG not a TD. Plus we would have had a punt return opportunity by Brandon Banks, who had already returned 2 for TDs (one got called back) to shorten the field that much more. That's really where we lost the game. Pulling McNabb was just icing on the cake.

Deadskins wrote:

VetSkinsFan wrote:

markshark84 wrote:I never really thought that MS handled the AH situation well, but then again, he was attempting to set a precedent to the other players and personally, I think that this precedent is one of the reasons that the team has changed their attitude. Besides, I hate the fact that 1 month ago everyone was praising MS for how he was dealing with AH, and now that things aren't going well, people (some of the same people) are ridiculing him for it. I just don't get it. If I were in MSs' shoes, I honestly wouldn't have treated AH the same way (then again, I am a fairly diplomatic person), but the coach needs to be the coach. I personally think that he went about it in the wrong way -- and basically went on an ego-trip, but whats done is done. He now needs to get on the same page as his players. It is always the ultimate question as a coach: is it better to be feared than loved? IMHO, it is a little of both. I think that MS would prefer to be feared.

I never thought that highly of the Shanahan vs Haynesworth thing and the way Shanahan handled it, but I did admit that we didn't know and never would know everythign that went on. I also know that Haynesworth didn't help the situation with his actions.
In hindsight between Shanahan vs Haynesworth, benching Dock, and now benching McNabb (and even the Thomas cut makes me think), I'm wondering how much is totalitarian vs for the good of the team.

What's sad is that what's best for the team is also what's best for the coach, but he can't see that because his ego get's in the way sometimes. I was one of the people who said he should have backed off Haynesworth before the season began. I understand Al brought it on himself, but as a coach you have to look to motivate players each in their own way. You can't put yourself before the team, which is what he's doing. I can understand wanting discipline, but you have to temper that with common sense, and know when to bend.

I'm one that did not mind how Shanahan handled both the treatment of Haynesworth and also in not letting him go for less than he thinks Haynesworth is worth
I totally agree that Shanahan has made mistakes with some of his on field decisions and his off the field conversations and behaviour

I'm not sure that this franchise did not need a very firm leader as a HC rather than just a good coach - just because he's made a lot of mistakes does not mean he's the total failure that some are making him out to be - we need to give him more time IMO

we all knew going into the season that our offensive line was horrible and personally I hated the thought by some here that one of the best linemen was Dockery, who in my estimation is a huge liability

we have 2 very big issues - we are a very old team and we have no quality players and depth along both the offensive and defensive lines - that has got to get changed but it will take time


most of us thought that this season would be a good season if we won 8 or 9 games and if that happens winning all the games we shouldn't win and losing all the games we should win, who cares? 8 wins (or 9 wins) is a "good" season and an improvement over what we had

I think that Allen & Shanahan have done okay here and fortunately for me they can still prove that they were a good choice to get this franchise back - maybe next year we'll be in the playoff chase


I don't like Shanahan's methods but I'm not sure that he can change what he does - I think he's convinced that his way is the only way and he does not tolerate inadequacies or lack of committment


I do think that he needs to keep his players close to him and it will be interesting to see how the effects of what has happened here recently play out over the next 4 games

Deadskins wrote: The decision to go for it was the second stupidest decision Shanahan made Sunday. Punting would have made us only need to drive far enough to kick a game-tying FG not a TD. Plus we would have had a punt return opportunity by Brandon Banks, who had already returned 2 for TDs (one got called back) to shorten the field that much more. That's really where we lost the game. Pulling McNabb was just icing on the cake.

I agree also - I could not believe that Shanahan went for it on 4th down - that was a bad decision - it showed a lack of faith in both the defense & the offense

pulling McNabb was just one of the dumbest, stupid things I've seen from this guy - I'm very sure we will not see that happen again

Irn-Bru wrote:

SGTMcClain wrote:Ok I have had a day to let this sink in and I will say this, Shanahan is creating a culture in DC. Its similar to what what has happened up in New England.

He stood his ground with big Al and while we may not be getting our moneys worth we are getting more out of Haynesworth than we did last year.

He cut 2 underperforming RB's and found a guy in Torrain who is willing to play they way he wants.

He has found a few other guys in Banks and Armstrong who continue to perform much better than anyone could have expected.

Now with McNabb... while I don't agree with the benching, remember when this happened last year and Reid benched McNabb for Kolb, when McNabb returned as the starter he was a much better QB for the rest of the year.

I think what Shanahan is doing is telling the players, this is his team and its his way or the highway. (I could have sworn I saw Kyle mouth "what the hell his he doing" on the sideline after one of McNabb's plays) I think it was gutless to throw McNabb under the bus twice in two different ways in two different press conferences but it is what it is. Bottom line is he is getting results and we are a better team then we have been in years with Shanahan as our head coach. It may be uncomfortable for a few years as we get the complete team he feels he needs to take us all the way though.

Interesting point. (Nice post, and welcome to the boards!)

I can understand this point of view and what Snout writes above, and in fact I sympathize with a lot of it. I don't necessarily agree with benching McNabb, but I'm also content to leave that to the coaches.

The one point that I can't really get over is the face that Shanahan is presenting to the media and fans (and, to whatever degree we can witness, also to the players). There's a chance that he told the truth in his press conferences but I don't think it's likely. The way he's backtracked and changed his story really bugs me. It's a character issue.

Now Shanahan has, as far as I know, a long history of being a good coach, so one decision and press conference can't undo those years of integrity. It does, however, set me on edge, and I'm not happy about that.

I haven't agreed with many of his decisions so far this season, but until now I was willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. I thought it was a real error in judgement to go for it on 4th down, and then to bench McNabb because the previous lapse had forced us into having to drive for a TD rather than a FG was an even bigger error, IMO. But to come out after the game and give a ludicrous reason for the benching was especially grievous. And then to switch stories 24 hours later just made things worse. I'm having a real hard time believing the players aren't as upset about these things as the fans are. Heck, the benching might have even contributed to the line totally giving up when Rex entered the game. The time to bench your QB is just not with less than two minutes on the clock in a game that is still within reach. That is not the act of a steady veteran coach.

SkinsJock wrote:hopefully Mike will come up with a way to get this franchise to a record of 8-8 or 9-7 and we'll look forward to next year

Not making the kind of decisions he did on Sunday. And we shouldn't have to be waiting until next year, when we are perfectly capable of winning more games this year.

SkinsJock wrote:After reading the diatribes - if Shanahan gets this group to 8-8 or 9-7, I will look forward to hearing from all those that pointed to all the reasons we are so doomed - I can't wait to hear the excuses for mis-judging this HC, these players and the coaches

I have no doubt we will get to 8-8. I think you are setting the bar too low.

RayNAustin wrote:To me ... the issue still remains the same. It was a bad decision to pull McNabb ... not iffy ... not slightly controversial ... down right poor judgement right at the moment Rex trotted onto the field. The results only confirmed what everyone else was thinking. Crush, fumble, 7 points for the Lions, and game over. This isn't a case of hindsight being 20/20 .. this is just poor judgement, and not the only example of it ... just the most recent.

There would not be a lingering issue had the coach come right out and say it was a gut call that didn't work, and not a good decision, rather than all of the excuses. That's what bothers me the most ... not that a coach would make a bad call ... that happens ... it's going to happen from time to time, because nobody is perfect.

I've got problems with someone who refuses to own up to their bad decisions, and take responsibility.

It wasn't just unfair to McNabb either ... it was unfair to put Grossman in that situation .... being less mobile than McNabb, he had no chance ... none. It was a disaster waiting to happen, and as it turned out, it didn't take long for that disaster to appear ... 1 play.

Exactly. And the decision to go for it on 4th down the series before, set this one up and made it even more foolish.

Deadskins wrote:

SkinsJock wrote:hopefully Mike will come up with a way to get this franchise to a record of 8-8 or 9-7 and we'll look forward to next year

Not making the kind of decisions he did on Sunday. And we shouldn't have to be waiting until next year, when we are perfectly capable of winning more games this year.

8-8 or 9-7 has been about what I have been expecting. With this offensive line, why would anyone expect a better outcome than that?

KazooSkinsFan wrote:

Redskin in Canada wrote:

SkinsJock wrote:These guys are trying to make things work here

I agree brother. I already moved on and I am supporting MY WHOLE TEAM 100%

We disagree on a lot of things, but that's the common bond. Ray hates the Redskins, of course he's trashing them. He's not looking for anything out of this other then it's another chance to rip them.

I don't see that at all.

Deadskins wrote:

KazooSkinsFan wrote:

Redskin in Canada wrote:

SkinsJock wrote:These guys are trying to make things work here

I agree brother. I already moved on and I am supporting MY WHOLE TEAM 100%

We disagree on a lot of things, but that's the common bond. Ray hates the Redskins, of course he's trashing them. He's not looking for anything out of this other then it's another chance to rip them.

I don't see that at all.

+1

Ray is just being Ray and Ray definitely doesn't hate the Redskins.
Some of the Redskins... that's a different story

chiefhog44 wrote:

roybus14 wrote:Dockery.... Another one. What is the real reason why this dude is in street clothes? He couldn't have done any worst than Lichenstieger has done but yet he remains in street clothes.

This guy is a back up if not out of the league next year. At least he is giving a young dude that sucks a chance to play rather than an old dude that sucks. Who knows, if there is enough improvement, we may not need to address the position next year.

Please! Dockery is not old, and is a much better player than Lichenstieger. If we cut him he will find work day 1.

Countertrey wrote:

Deadskins wrote:

SkinsJock wrote:hopefully Mike will come up with a way to get this franchise to a record of 8-8 or 9-7 and we'll look forward to next year

Not making the kind of decisions he did on Sunday. And we shouldn't have to be waiting until next year, when we are perfectly capable of winning more games this year.

8-8 or 9-7 has been about what I have been expecting. With this offensive line, why would anyone expect a better outcome than that?

Well, if we were 5-3 at the turn rather than 4-4 with a bunch of controversy, I'd say 10-6 would not be out of the question at all.

Deadskins wrote:

Countertrey wrote:

Deadskins wrote:

SkinsJock wrote:hopefully Mike will come up with a way to get this franchise to a record of 8-8 or 9-7 and we'll look forward to next year

Not making the kind of decisions he did on Sunday. And we shouldn't have to be waiting until next year, when we are perfectly capable of winning more games this year.

8-8 or 9-7 has been about what I have been expecting. With this offensive line, why would anyone expect a better outcome than that?

Well, if we were 5-3 at the turn rather than 4-4 with a bunch of controversy, I'd say 10-6 would not be out of the question at all.

Can't argue with that!

Deadskins wrote:

chiefhog44 wrote:

roybus14 wrote:Dockery.... Another one. What is the real reason why this dude is in street clothes? He couldn't have done any worst than Lichenstieger has done but yet he remains in street clothes.

This guy is a back up if not out of the league next year. At least he is giving a young dude that sucks a chance to play rather than an old dude that sucks. Who knows, if there is enough improvement, we may not need to address the position next year.

Please! Dockery is not old, and is a much better player than Lichenstieger. If we cut him he will find work day 1.

He was cut from the Bills, and now he plays backup on the Skins. Put two and two together...

chiefhog44 wrote:

Deadskins wrote:

chiefhog44 wrote:

roybus14 wrote:Dockery.... Another one. What is the real reason why this dude is in street clothes? He couldn't have done any worst than Lichenstieger has done but yet he remains in street clothes.

This guy is a back up if not out of the league next year. At least he is giving a young dude that sucks a chance to play rather than an old dude that sucks. Who knows, if there is enough improvement, we may not need to address the position next year.

Please! Dockery is not old, and is a much better player than Lichenstieger. If we cut him he will find work day 1.

He was cut from the Bills, and now he plays backup on the Skins. Put two and two together...

He was cut from the Bills for cap reasons (they way overpaid him to leave DC), and I don't think he should be a backup here. Isn't that why I responded in the first place? Funny you should ask me to read between the lines, though.

Deadskins wrote:He was cut from the Bills for cap reasons (they way overpaid him to leave DC), and I don't think he should be a backup here. Isn't that why I responded in the first place? Funny you should ask me to read between the lines, though.

http://www.billsdaily.com/frontoffice/salarycap.shtml

The Bills were way under the salary cap last year and only saved a small amount (capwise) for cutting Dock. It's hard to attribute his release to anything other than performance.

Paralis wrote:

Deadskins wrote:He was cut from the Bills for cap reasons (they way overpaid him to leave DC), and I don't think he should be a backup here. Isn't that why I responded in the first place? Funny you should ask me to read between the lines, though.

http://www.billsdaily.com/frontoffice/salarycap.shtml

The Bills were way under the salary cap last year and only saved a small amount (capwise) for cutting Dock. It's hard to attribute his release to anything other than performance.

Sorry, I shouldn't have said cap, because the Bills are tight with the $$$ and don't usually max out the cap anyway. He was way overpaid in Buffalo, and they wanted to be rid of his salary. I'm not saying he is the best guard in the league, just that he's a huge upgrade over Lichtensteiger, IMO.

chiefhog44 wrote:

Deadskins wrote:

chiefhog44 wrote:

roybus14 wrote:Dockery.... Another one. What is the real reason why this dude is in street clothes? He couldn't have done any worst than Lichenstieger has done but yet he remains in street clothes.

This guy is a back up if not out of the league next year. At least he is giving a young dude that sucks a chance to play rather than an old dude that sucks. Who knows, if there is enough improvement, we may not need to address the position next year.

Please! Dockery is not old, and is a much better player than Lichenstieger. If we cut him he will find work day 1.

He was cut from the Bills, and now he plays backup on the Skins. Put two and two together...

That won't add up, sure he was cut by Buffalo but backups have always been known to dress for the game.

Deadskins wrote:

chiefhog44 wrote:

Deadskins wrote:

chiefhog44 wrote:

roybus14 wrote:Dockery.... Another one. What is the real reason why this dude is in street clothes? He couldn't have done any worst than Lichenstieger has done but yet he remains in street clothes.

This guy is a back up if not out of the league next year. At least he is giving a young dude that sucks a chance to play rather than an old dude that sucks. Who knows, if there is enough improvement, we may not need to address the position next year.

Please! Dockery is not old, and is a much better player than Lichenstieger. If we cut him he will find work day 1.

He was cut from the Bills, and now he plays backup on the Skins. Put two and two together...

Funny you should ask me to read between the lines, though.

I have no idea what you are talking about

chiefhog44 wrote:

Deadskins wrote:... Funny you should ask me to read between the lines, though.

I have no idea what you are talking about

you know .. I have often felt that about the "Dead" man's posts too


10-6 is still possible but it was not a real possibility - some guys are just dreamers


I'm not giving up on the direction the FO is leading us OR the coaches and players here now - we are better and we'll find out who can help this franchise going forward

chiefhog44 wrote:

Deadskins wrote:

chiefhog44 wrote:

Deadskins wrote:

chiefhog44 wrote:

roybus14 wrote:Dockery.... Another one. What is the real reason why this dude is in street clothes? He couldn't have done any worst than Lichenstieger has done but yet he remains in street clothes.

This guy is a back up if not out of the league next year. At least he is giving a young dude that sucks a chance to play rather than an old dude that sucks. Who knows, if there is enough improvement, we may not need to address the position next year.

Please! Dockery is not old, and is a much better player than Lichenstieger. If we cut him he will find work day 1.

He was cut from the Bills, and now he plays backup on the Skins. Put two and two together...

Funny you should ask me to read between the lines, though.

I have no idea what you are talking about

Saying "put two and two together" is another way of saying "read between the lines."

I can't believe I have to actually explain that.

SkinsJock wrote:10-6 is still possible but it was not a real possibility - some guys are just dreamers

Please! So if we were sitting at 5-3 at the turn, you don't think 10-6 was a real possibility?

My preseason prediction:
We sweep the Smeagols and Cowpies - 2-0 so still on pace.
We split or get swept by the G-strings - Still on pace. How could we not be?
We split with the NFC North - Still on pace, actually 2-1, so ahead, but not the way I thought.
We split with the AFC South - 0-2 so far, but those were the two losses I was counting, so technically still on pace.
We win both record games (Rams and Bucs) - 0-1 so I'm down a game.

If we can make up that one loss, and stay on pace with the rest, we finish 10-6 or 11-5 like I predicted. Now the whole thing is up in the air because of DM's benching, but don't act like your prediction was any better, because you had no way of knowing the Shanahans would pull such a stupid stunt.

PS I might also remind you that as little as three weeks ago you still predicted the Cowpies would win the NFC East.

CanesSkins26 wrote:

RayNAustin wrote:

CanesSkins26 wrote:

The revelations that the Shanahans haven't been enamored with McNabb going way back to pre-season tells me that these two guys are freaking nuts.

It's pretty clear that Andy Reid and the Eagles weren't all that enamored anymore with McNabb either. Does that make them "freaking nuts" too?

If they decided to go with Rex Grossman instead .... YES ... YES they would be nuts.

Now KNOCK off the smart arse nonsense .... if you're going to say it ... then have tha stones to say it .... go ahead ... say "I think Rex Grossman gives the Redskins the best chance to win".

You were after all a big fan of Campbell until that ton of bricks fell on you. Don't think I forgot about that.

So say it already ... Rex is your man. Go ahead? What are you waiting for?

I don't think that Rex is better than McNabb. But at the same time I think that McNabb's days of being an upper tier qb are over. He isn't a top 10 qb anymore and he wont perform at that level for us or any other team. Right now he looks like an over the hill qb that is on his last legs.

What a ridiculous thing to say. Looking at McNabb's career stats, I see no evidence of a decline ... he was better in 2007 than he was in 2006, better in 2008 than he was in 2007, and better in 2009 than he was in 2008.

AND, in spite of the poor pass pro and lack of running game, McNabb is 6th in the NFL RIGHT NOW, and on pace to exceed his career high yardage totals. Another measure is the fact that Santana Moss is also on pace to exceed career highs in catches. .. Moss is having a career year, in spite of the many on this board who have claimed that Moss had lost a step and was no longer the receiver he was in 2005. Moss's problems revolved around having Jason Campbell as the QB for 2006-2009.

McNabb's problems this year, in my opinion, revolve around his having to learn a brand new system behind a poor performing o-line on an offense that is relying SOLELY on him to carry them on his shoulders. And I don't think he's getting the credit and confidence from his coaches that he's earning for performing to the level he has managed to under the circumstances. To the contrary, he's being criticized.

The fact that people are even debating this issue boggles my mind ... the "knowledgeable fans" here on this board that remained on bended knee for Campbell, blaming anything and everything for his failure to perform ... such claims as QBs needing at least 2 years in a system in order to perform ... claiming NOBODY ... even Peyton Manning could perform behind last year's o-line. Now, you expect McNabb to perform like Peyton Manning on day one with worse protection, worse running game, and ready to throw him under the bus half way through the first year?

Give me a freaking break .... you all make NO SENSE WHATSOEVER. NONE.

All McNabb needs is a little help up front, and a little bit of support from the sideline too. That's what's missing here. One of the big problems on offense this year has been poor 3rd down performance. How much of that is McNabb, and how much of that is poor 1st and 2nd down running and play call management, leaving too many 3rd and long situations?

Fred Davis has been a non-entity this year ... you'd think that with two TE like ey and Davis ... the offense could utilize that talent in that short to intermediate area better. Davis has way too much talent and speed for a TE to not be a bigger part of this system.

I'd break this down to poor o-line, followed by Kyle Shanahan's scheme long before I'd place any significant blame on McNabb's performance.

Deadskins wrote:
In hindsight between Shanahan vs Haynesworth, benching Dock, and now benching McNabb (and even the Thomas cut makes me think), I'm wondering how much is totalitarian vs for the good of the team.

What's sad is that what's best for the team is also what's best for the coach, but he can't see that because his ego get's in the way sometimes. I was one of the people who said he should have backed off Haynesworth before the season began. I understand Al brought it on himself, but as a coach you have to look to motivate players each in their own way. You can't put yourself before the team, which is what he's doing. I can understand wanting discipline, but you have to temper that with common sense, and know when to bend.

Exactly. But even more importantly, you simply cannot send an no-confidence vote to the entire team regarding the leader of the offense like they did last Sunday. It was a bone headed maneuver to say the least, and it so blatantly demonstrated poor judgement, you cannot help but to then question many other decisions and calls being made in other areas.

What separates good coaches from bad ones? Judgement ... strategy ... decision making ... analyzing player performance and talent .... ability to adjust to what the opposition does .... ability to utilize the talent you have to your best advantage .... these are the things coaches must be good at if they are good coaches.

When they demonstrate such poor judgement in one area, it's perfectly valid to start looking at their decisions across the board. And under close inspection, there are plenty of decisions that don't pass the "good decision" test here.

Was both Johnson and Parker that bad, and if so, why were they here? Why did Johnson make the final cut and then be cut later. Why was Thomas cut, and Galloway and Williams kept? Was there no other lineman available that was better than Heyer? Is LictenSteiger really better than Doc? Is the new zone blocking scheme causing the difficulties on the line, or did they simply add 4 new players only to become worse than the line we had in 2009?

I've not tried to over analyze the play calling, but I have noticed a pattern with Kyle Shanahan .... 1) Stop the run early, and he'll abandon it completely 2) the system itself focuses 1st progression on low percentage long passes 3) Opposing defensive adjustments at halftime seem to be better than our offensive adjustments.

In the Detroit game, there were many questionable decisions. When McNabb was pulled, it was 31-25 .... we had already tried two 2 point conversions and failed ... and I thought it was a mistake each time. Had we Kicked extra points on both, Detroit would never have gone for their two pointer on what ended up being the go ahead TD and successful 2 point conversion, and the score would have been 27-27 (not 28-25) with over 3 minutes left. With a tie ball game, the Redskins would never have gone for it on 4th down and 10 from their own 28, virtually handing the Lions 3 points ... which was also a mistake in my opinion, and set up by previous poor decisions to go for 2 twice. Even then, down by 3 with 2:22 left ... you punt, force a 3 and out, and try and drive for the tie ... you don't give them 3 ... it was 4th and 10 ... not 4th and 2.

Other questions are glaring ... like, WHY were they throwing the ball on 2nd down with a 5 point lead and 4:40 on the clock, instead of running and eating clock which ended in an interception, and the go ahead score for Detroit? No ... you run ... eat clock ... and punt, and rely on your defense to keep them out of the end zone and win the game. Throwing on second down was totally BUSH-LEAGUE coaching ... plain and simple.

Frankly, there were several poor coaching decisions in that game that ultimately contributed to this loss ... it's only the last one ... pulling McNabb, that was so bad, it overshadowed the others. But when carefully examined, coaching errors contributed to more coaching errors.

In my opinion, Team Shanahan did just as bad, if not worse, than the Redskin players. And they simply compounded the errors by insulting McNabb at the end.