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Posted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 12:09 pm
by Fios
Redskin in Canada wrote:1niksder wrote:When you look at how he runs the team, the fact is he is not doing a bad job.
Is he out of the dog house? Not by a longshot
You and other posters on your side of the argument are RIGHT. The way the Team has been RUN will not drive the Team into "earning" a First Round Pick in the Draft. No last place in the standings. No Detroit Lions type of systematic dysfunctional disaster.
The problem is that, as opposed to you, I do not believe that there has been or there is a CONSISTENT PLAN to field a Team with a real prospect to win a Superbowl. The stopgap measures that have been taken throughout the years of his tenure have allowed us to range in performance from mediocre records to compeitive status at individual games or even short stretches throughout some seasons.
The problem is that this approach is FUNDAMENTALLY FLAWED because he has never been, is not and will never be a true NFL Expert or anything close to what could resemble a good GM capable to field a Superbowl winning team. His decisions allow us to consistently generate expectations and even put good performances at times. But it will keep us in MEDIOCRITY.
I am not accusing the Danny of running this team to Detroit Lions status. I am accusing the Danny of keeping this team in MEDIOCRITY.
You are a far better expert at Skins numbers than I will ever be. You will not dispute these:
Code: Select all
2008 8 8
2007 9 7
2006 5 11
2005 10 6
2004 6 10
2003 5 11
2002 7 9
2001 8 8
2000 8 8
1999 10 6
Overall, from 1999 to 2008, we have a record of 76 - 84
Maybe this is not a disaster á la Matt Millen Detroit Lions but it is a MEDIOCRE record. For those of you who would point out at the two 10 - 6 seasons, others would bring up the two 5 - 11 seasons.
Do you get any indications FROM THE ECORD that a tangible improvement has been made to win CONSISTENTLY? I do not mean a Superbowl, I mean only WINNING seasons?
The BEST living coach on Earth could not do it. John Madden, of all people, when commenting the departure by Joe Gibbs and his "mixed record" upon his second tenure with us said:
"The NFL changed and he had much better players the first time around."
Both were true statements. The fact that some of us point out in MODERN SPORTS that the MOST IMPORTANT position in any franchise is that of GM. This is true in the European soccer leagues, the MBA, the NBA, the NHL and of course, the highly competitive NFL.
To give you an example, the most important member of the Ravens is not on the field,. No, it is not Ray Lewis or Ed Reed. No, it is not its new coach. It is Ozzie Newsome, their GM. You can be a fan or not of this guy. But you cannot argue that, for the money, the Draft recruiting and FA acquisitions made by the Ravens have been more effective than ours. But I am ONLY using one example. I could have used instead the Colts or the Steelers with good GM. You get the point.
The fact that some of you use the Detroit Lions as a yardstick is pathetic. Use BOTH, the upper and the lower en of the stick to determine that the record and performance of this Team is MEDIOCRE (with admittedly some flashes of good and some disasters to match).
The question I pose to all of you is: Why are you still taking the same Kool Aid? Hope? Based on what? The promise of performance which results from new acquisitions which MAY turn out good? Have we not heard this before OFTEN?
Why is the Redskin Nation not rising itsvoice to demand ACCOUNTABILITY from the owner of the Franchise? All we get is, What?
He is not out of the dog house by a long shot. No kidding.
I realise that RADICAL views are the target of criticism. Mine are RADICAL. But it takes RADICAL people like me to move the "average center" of public opinion at times.
Trust me, it would be a lot more comfortable to seat down and share the Kool Aid with all of you. I might even venture to predict a winning record for you next season to try to show that I am a better fan the more optimistic I become.
I DO NOT THINK SO.
Sigh ... it's as if you skimmed through the posts by Pulp and 1nik, completely ignoring what they actually wrote in a rush to make your own point. At least this is in the right forum because the "drinking the kool aid" stuff is complete hog wash.
Posted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 12:12 pm
by Redskin in Canada
Deadskins wrote:Redskin in Canada wrote:Our demand from DS is very SIMPLE: Hire a competent GM and step away from the football management side of the Team.
Do you really think about what you are saying? I'm sure if you had bought the Redskins, you would have just turned them over to someone else to run as they saw fit.
C'mon! Who among us would do any different?
SUCCESSFUL owners do. The ones who are directly involved as "experts" in day to day operations are FAILURES.
Posted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 12:13 pm
by Redskin in Canada
Fios wrote:Sigh ... it's as if you skimmed through the posts by Pulp and 1nik, completely ignoring what they actually wrote in a rush to make your own point. At least this is in the right forum because the "drinking the kool aid" stuff is complete hog wash.
Argue with me PLEASE that our record is not mediocre. I dare you.
Posted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 12:14 pm
by Deadskins
DEHog wrote:Once again Bernie you bring some reason to the argument and thank you for not saying DS is doing a good job because he’s a fan and spends lots of money!!
I was encouraged by the fact that we only have 12 players over 30 but when I checked THN is says we have 16 players over 30 and will have 21 by the start of the season?? I’m sure that will change by the beginning of the season.
Of the 22 player we have drafted how many are starters?? I know that draft is hit or miss but the more picks we keep the better the chances are of landing another Sean Taylor.
As for FA signings…I’m not one who argues that we are bringing in old FA that are looking for a big paydays…I think Snyder has learned from those past mistakes. My problem is that we are paying the premium for a guy best years with another team…I want to see us sign a guy who we developed and had pro-bowls with us!! Then add a FA to compliment our team that seems to be the winning formula around the league.
My final thought is my biggest concern. Many of you have said that Gibbs had full control for the four years he was here.. I don’t know?? What scares me is while Gibbs was here we did go to the playoff two of the four years. Outside of that the only time we made the playoffs was in DS first year. SO the next few years will say a lot as to how much DS has matured as an owner.
I'm fairly certain we would have gone to the playoffs more had we kept Marty at the helm, but that is water under the bridge at this point. But I really wanted to respond to your comment about Sean Taylor. We only got Sean because we drafted so high after having such a crappy season the year before. I guess we could trade up to get another pick that high, but the bitching and moaning around here would be damn near intolerable if we were to do so (almost as bad as if we had a season to get that high a pick
).
Posted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 12:24 pm
by DEHog
Deadskins wrote:DEHog wrote:Once again Bernie you bring some reason to the argument and thank you for not saying DS is doing a good job because he’s a fan and spends lots of money!!
I was encouraged by the fact that we only have 12 players over 30 but when I checked THN is says we have 16 players over 30 and will have 21 by the start of the season?? I’m sure that will change by the beginning of the season.
Of the 22 player we have drafted how many are starters?? I know that draft is hit or miss but the more picks we keep the better the chances are of landing another Sean Taylor.
As for FA signings…I’m not one who argues that we are bringing in old FA that are looking for a big paydays…I think Snyder has learned from those past mistakes. My problem is that we are paying the premium for a guy best years with another team…I want to see us sign a guy who we developed and had pro-bowls with us!! Then add a FA to compliment our team that seems to be the winning formula around the league.
My final thought is my biggest concern. Many of you have said that Gibbs had full control for the four years he was here.. I don’t know?? What scares me is while Gibbs was here we did go to the playoff two of the four years. Outside of that the only time we made the playoffs was in DS first year. SO the next few years will say a lot as to how much DS has matured as an owner.
I'm fairly certain we would have gone to the playoffs more had we kept Marty at the helm, but that is water under the bridge at this point. But I really wanted to respond to your comment about Sean Taylor. We only got Sean because we drafted so high after having such a crappy season the year before. I guess we could trade up to get another pick that high, but the bitching and moaning around here would be damn near intolerable if we were to do so (almost as bad as if we had a season to get that high a pick
).
My point here is that the more picks you have the better chance you have of landing a good player...Look at last year and Chris Horton...the chances of finding a Chris Horton this year are slim because of the number of picks. Continuing to operate this way IMO will only lead to more 8-8 seasons...As I've said we may very well win but it will be short lived.
Posted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 12:25 pm
by Irn-Bru
Skinsfan55 wrote:People who are in a state of disgust and panic over the franchise need a scapegoat. So they go after the one guy in the organization who is a huge Redskins fan and who spends hundred of millions of his own money to improve the team.
It's just idiotic to blame Dan Snyder for the state of the franchise (that was in decay years before he bought the team, and 17 years total), and it's just as idiotic to keep throwing back these moves he made ten years ago as evidence that the franchise is (and always will be) in a state of decline as long ad he and Vinny are around.
Did you read my post? I'm pretty sure this was addressed, unless there's something new to say:
Irn-Bru wrote:Skinsfan55 wrote:There's blame to go around. That's the point. Danny shares in some, our past coaches share in some, Vinny shares some, the players share a lot of it...
If only there was some common variable. . .someone whose decision it was to hire coaches, Vinny, and the players. . .some kind of. . .'owner', or something. Who's in charge, anyway?!
SF55 wrote:The Redskins have been a fairly dysfunctional franchise for going on 17 years now and it is not the fault of one man.
And it's that which makes your argument so ridiculous.
A causes B, C, and D. B and C cause E, F, G, and H. D causes I, J, and K. If the whole chain of causes stinks, from A to K, it's OK to point out that A is the primary problem. That doesn't mean A gets all the blame, because B, C, D, etc. are all causes
too. But it's a bad argument to say that A can't be the primary cause because B and E cause things, too. See?
Posted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 12:27 pm
by Redskin in Canada
PulpExposure wrote:Btw you fully understand that I'm not wishing you away at all; just that if I were in your shoes, I would say "To heck with this franchise" and walk away. To me, I watch sports for enjoyment (or torture, as a Redskins fan). But when being a fan of a team crosses into utter frustration and negativity (as you have), I absolutely walk away. I've got better things, more important things, to worry about than a stupid sports franchise (economy, my kids health, my job status, etc.) Because you continue, despite the frustration, to be a ardent fan, you're probably a better fan than I am.
You are offering an opinion, not advice. I uderstand. Not a nice opinion but within the rules.
Brother, thanks for the concern. I have a happy family life. My health is very good according to my annual check ups. I am a very successful professional. What is more, I know and diagnose first hand decisions made at some of the highest levels in my field of work. I know the fundamental difference that good and bad leaderships can make.
I am not losing any sleep (for now) about my hobbies or sports affiliations. I concede that this board and the Skins provide a much needed -distraction- from the stress of my job, which could bring some people to stress sometimes. But I handle thing very well.
Cerrato may not be the best GM in the NFL (may not is an understatement), but he's not terrible as some construe him.
The charge is MEDIOCRITY, which in some sense is worse than disaster because it allows you to linger around longer.
For example, on the whole we've done pretty well with our draft picks
So that we agree, this is your EXPECTATION and the opinion of observers and analysts, as opposed to proven on the field performance, Right? I mean, I have heard this story so many times before that you will understand my skepticism.
Finally, you mentioned getting the best GM in the league. I'm really not sure, with how this team is run, that the best GM in the league would want to come here.
TRUE!!! You see? Intelligent people can agree.
But that does not tell you something about the dysfunctional behaviour of the franchise?
And, really, what great GM would want to join the Redskins and walk away from a situation where they have total control?
NONE. And this is the point. Do you not think that outcries of public opinion demanding ACCOUNTABILITY from the owner can help change this situation as a man that puts his fingers on PUBLIC OPINION for a living?
Just asking ...
Posted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 12:30 pm
by Deadskins
Redskin in Canada wrote:Deadskins wrote:Redskin in Canada wrote:Our demand from DS is very SIMPLE: Hire a competent GM and step away from the football management side of the Team.
Do you really think about what you are saying? I'm sure if you had bought the Redskins, you would have just turned them over to someone else to run as they saw fit.
C'mon! Who among us would do any different?
SUCCESSFUL owners do. The ones who are directly involved as "experts" in day to day operations are FAILURES.
And how many of us are successful owners? My question was what would
you do? And Jerry Jones is one of the most meddlesome owners in the business and he has 3 Lombardis to show for it. I know they haven't won a playoff game in over a decade, but they have won the division several times and went 13-3 just a year ago. And I don't believe Snyder considers himself an "expert." He may say to Cerrato, "should we get that Haynesworth guy? I hear he's pretty good." And then he makes it happen with his checkbook. I don't for a minute believe he says "I'm getting Haynesworth, you guys make it work."
Posted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 12:36 pm
by Redskin in Canada
Deadskins wrote:And how many of us are successful owners?
Are we now into the rethorical realm or Are we into the asking REALLY who would wish to be successful?
Posted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 12:36 pm
by DEHog
Deadskins wrote:Redskin in Canada wrote:Deadskins wrote:Redskin in Canada wrote:Our demand from DS is very SIMPLE: Hire a competent GM and step away from the football management side of the Team.
Do you really think about what you are saying? I'm sure if you had bought the Redskins, you would have just turned them over to someone else to run as they saw fit.
C'mon! Who among us would do any different?
SUCCESSFUL owners do. The ones who are directly involved as "experts" in day to day operations are FAILURES.
And how many of us are successful owners? My question was what would
you do? And Jerry Jones is one of the most meddlesome owners in the business and he has 3 Lombardis to show for it. I know they haven't won a playoff game in over a decade, but they have won the division several times and went 13-3 just a year ago. And I don't believe Snyder considers himself an "expert." He may say to Cerrato, "should we get that Haynesworth guy? I hear he's pretty good." And then he makes it happen with his checkbook. I don't for a minute believe he says "I'm getting Haynesworth, you guys make it work."
You’re using JJ as an example??? He has won nothing with out Jimmy Johnson and has single handedly run the that franchise into the ground it took Parcells to bring them back and look at what JJ has done since...Like I’ve have said about DS he may win here and there but it will be short lived until he turns it over to a real GM!!
Posted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 12:38 pm
by DEHog
My question was what would you do?
Hire a real GM!!!
Posted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 12:39 pm
by Redskin in Canada
DEHog wrote:You’re using JJ as an example??? He has won nothing with out Jimmy Johnson and has single handedly run the that franchise into the ground it took Parcells to bring them back and look at what JJ has done since...Like I’ve have said about DS he may win here and there but it will be short lived until he turns it over to a real GM!!
The Jerry running the operations of TtiT is the best ally any Redskins fan could have. You are giving away a secret to the competition.
Posted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 12:41 pm
by CanesSkins26
1. Can't say the roster is full of aging vets.
It's 58 players on the roster but there is only a dozen that is 30 or older.
The problem, though, is that our roster is full of aging players at key positions (i.e. the offensive line).
2. They should build through the draft?
22 of the current Redskins were drafted by the Redskins (15 in the last five years).
That's not really a high number. As I pointed out in another thread, 18 of the 19 offensive players listed on Indy's depth chart were either drafted by the Colts or signed by them as undrafted free agents. If you look at who are starters were at the beginning of last season we only had 4 players starting on offense that we drafted. [/quote]
Posted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 12:42 pm
by Cooter
Deadskins wrote: My question was what would you do?
Hope you don't mind if I jump in the conversation, gotta start somewhere
...
...anyway, great and hard question. It would definitely be hard to release control of "my" team regardless of the performance. I like to think of myself as a successful and confident person that could accomplish anything, but on the flip side I am not too proud to know when I am out of my league as well. If I was Snyder I'd be doing the same things, not saying it's right or wrong, but I'd be scooping up the best players available and hoping that someone could gel the pieces together...
...one good thing about our team is that we sign quality people and don't have locker room issues like the Cowboys.
Posted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 12:47 pm
by DEHog
...one good thing about our team is that we sign quality people and don't have locker room issues like the Cowboys...
Yet..we just added Ah and DHall to the mixed...and lost Daniels, MWatt and Springs. I think we are OK with London still around as our D leader.
Just say no to T.O!!
Posted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 12:54 pm
by Cooter
DEHog wrote:Yet..we just added Ah and DHall to the mixed...and lost Daniels, MWatt and Springs. I think we are OK with London still around as our D leader.
Just say no to T.O!!
Yeah, we did recently lose some quality guys, and signed two questionable ones. Although it was a "playing for a contract" situation for both I'd like to think the small part of the year Hall was with the team he "saw the way." As for Haynesworth, just like his performance questions, only time will tell. You're definitely right though, as long as Fletch is around the defense will be strong on/off the field. As for the rest of the team, I think we still have a lot of "core Redskins" to hold the fort down.
P.S. Hell NO to TO!
Posted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 1:05 pm
by Deadskins
DEHog wrote:You’re using JJ as an example???
Only to show that anything is possible.
Posted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 3:16 pm
by DEHog
Deadskins wrote:DEHog wrote:You’re using JJ as an example???
Only to show that anything is possible.
You git me there
Posted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 7:03 pm
by Redskin in Canada
DEHog wrote:Just say no to T.O!!
Has he signed elsewhere?
Posted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 9:46 pm
by SkinsFreak
Redskin in Canada wrote:DEHog wrote:Just say no to T.O!!
Has he signed elsewhere?
Yes, he has...
T.O., Bills reach deal
Wide receiver Terrell Owens has agreed to a one-year deal with the Buffalo Bills for $6.5 million.
FOXSports.com was the first to report that Owens and agent Drew Rosenhaus were visiting Buffalo and that the Bills were expected to offer T.O. a one-year deal
"I'm leaving America's team (for) North America's team," Owens said at a news conference.
And here's the thing that irritates me, and why many times the media reports on a broader national scale are many times biased, misleading, inaccurate or just flat out wrong...
Rotoworld.com wrote:Redskins: No interest in OwensAfter checking in with sources familiar with the Redskins' thinking, the Washington Post reports that "at this point" the club has no interest in free agent Terrell Owens.
The anti-T.O. list grows. Maybe the Skins will revisit the idea if Devin Thomas and Malcolm Kelly don't show promise in the offseason program and T.O. is still unsigned then, but for now they're going to give their own guys a shot. Mar. 5 - 12:35 pm et
Source: Washington Post
Umm, okay... so the source familiar with the Redskins'
thinking is Jason La Confora??? I mean, it's just ridiculous. Even ESPN gets JLC on their show when they want to ask about the Redskins. And we all know how accurate and objective JLC is. NOT!
Not in regards to this particular T.O. report, but in general, media reports coming from the Post and JLC tend to be biased, negative and misleading. The nation then latches on to what the Post and JLC say and just rolls with it in the same negative way. Then the negative reports make their way to Canada... and we all know what happens next.
Posted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 10:01 pm
by redskins14ru
we should grab the other olinman from buffalo the FA sure beats the center from the bengals . looks like owens wants a ring real bad he atleast wenmt with numbers and picked the afc but thats not all he is with the bills and I don't know exactly how that works are the bills up and comng nest year or something and who is there qb anyways. this is the most mystery filled off season ever
Posted: Sun Mar 08, 2009 12:01 pm
by Redskin in Canada
You are right. It's all the Washington Post's fault. There is a national and international conspiracy against DS and his Front Office. They need all the help from the THN staff to save them from this evil.
But jokes aside, have you ever wondered how and why has DS accumulated such vast array of enemies and foes in and mainly outside the NFL?
Posted: Sun Mar 08, 2009 12:33 pm
by SkinsFreak
Vast array of enemies?
Posted: Sun Mar 08, 2009 12:41 pm
by 1niksder
After Redskin in Canada beat the same drum he's been beating for years, he wrote: The question I pose to all of you is: Why are you still taking the same Kool Aid?
After a few more fact less rants, RiC tried to mis-guide you all again when he wrote: Trust me, it would be a lot more comfortable to seat down and share the Kool Aid with all of you. I might even venture to predict a winning record for you next season to try to show that I am a better fan the more optimistic I become.
I DO NOT THINK SO.
Then the sippy cup ran with it when he wrote: Sigh ... it's as if you skimmed through the posts by Pulp and 1nik, completely ignoring what they actually wrote in a rush to make your own point. At least this is in the right forum because the "drinking the kool aid" stuff is complete hog wash.
If you didn't know.......
I'll go on record now........
I'm strictly adult beverages
Posted: Sun Mar 08, 2009 12:49 pm
by 1niksder
SkinsFreak wrote:Vast array of enemies?
They will die