The-Hogs.net - Washington Football Discussion, Redskins to Commanders Era

John Manfreda wrote:

jeremyroyce wrote:

SkinFan63 wrote:

tribeofjudah wrote:

DaSkins24 wrote:Why does Zorn deserve to be fired after one year of mediocrity when Cerratto has led over years of mediocrity?

Bulls Eye.........GIVE ZORN A CHANCE MAN. Are we going to drop coaches and get new one EVERY YEAR.....

COME ON.........HOW RIDICULOUS IS THAT....???

Zorn isn't the problem.
He's some of it, but he isn't the cancer eating away at this team.
He just inherited it.

He inherited a team that made the playoffs last year. This team is a darn good football team, however the play calling again was terrible on offense. Would it hurt to throw the ball down the field? I've seen enough in Zorn and he isn't the answer. No change on the offense play calling same thing week in and week out and we lost again this time to a team that had only one win.

He did not inherit a playoff team, we went 5-7 under Campbell. No we did not make the playoffs with Campbell, Todd Collins came in and won four striaght games. He did not inherit a playoff team.

We did make the playoffs last season didn't we? Against Seattle?

bet

jeremyroyce wrote:We did make the playoffs last season didn't we? Against Seattle?

He's saying that the team Zorn is playing is NOT the team that get into the playoffs. Which is TRUE. Not saying I agree with everything he says but that is true.

Chris Luva Luva wrote:

jeremyroyce wrote:We did make the playoffs last season didn't we? Against Seattle?

He's saying that the team Zorn is playing is NOT the team that get into the playoffs. Which is TRUE. Not saying I agree with everything he says but that is true.

Here is a FACT. We made the playoffs last season. This is the same team as the playoff team but added players. So, yes Zorn did take over a team that made the playoffs under Gibbs last season.

jeremyroyce wrote:

Chris Luva Luva wrote:

jeremyroyce wrote:We did make the playoffs last season didn't we? Against Seattle?

He's saying that the team Zorn is playing is NOT the team that get into the playoffs. Which is TRUE. Not saying I agree with everything he says but that is true.

Here is a FACT. We made the playoffs last season. This is the same team as the playoff team but added players. So, yes Zorn did take over a team that made the playoffs under Gibbs last season.

Yes, you told us we suck, we'd lose to one of the worst teams in the NFL, you were right. Congratulations. You must be walking on cloud nine today. Though firing Zorn in his first season is still a stupid idea.

KazooSkinsFan wrote:

jeremyroyce wrote:

Chris Luva Luva wrote:

jeremyroyce wrote:We did make the playoffs last season didn't we? Against Seattle?

He's saying that the team Zorn is playing is NOT the team that get into the playoffs. Which is TRUE. Not saying I agree with everything he says but that is true.

Here is a FACT. We made the playoffs last season. This is the same team as the playoff team but added players. So, yes Zorn did take over a team that made the playoffs under Gibbs last season.

Yes, you told us we suck, we'd lose to one of the worst teams in the NFL, you were right. Congratulations. You must be walking on cloud nine today. Though firing Zorn in his first season is still a stupid idea.

Don't put words in my mouth boy. I never said that we suck, show me where I said that. About me saying that we'd lose to one of the worst teams where did this come from? Maybe the predictions? Well, yes I did predict that we would lose. Why you ask? Because Jim Zorn has not proved to me that he can make the changes that need to be made on offense for this offense to succeed. Am I happy that we lost. No, I'm pissed. Am I happy we lost on national T.V. against the Ravens. No, I was disgusted. I was hoping that I would have been proven wrong. But I wasn't. Zorn continues to show that he is not the answer. Our defense continues to come out and get the job done all season long, yes, yesterday the defense did give up 17 points early but settled down enough to where we should have won this game, but our play calling has doomed this team and this will continue to be a downfall until there is a change.

jeremyroyce wrote:Don't put words in my mouth boy.

Boy? That's RACIST. I'm black you know. Actually I'm not but I could be. I mean not really, but it's still racist, I'm not sure why.

I'll get back to you on this part.

jeremyroyce wrote:I never said that we suck, show me where I said that.

...

Well, yes I did predict that we would lose.

You said we should fire our first year coach, I took you to be part of the we'll lose to the Bungles crowd. Apparently I got the gist of it right even though I didn't in fact notice you'd picked against us in Hognostications. So anyway, saying we'll lose to one of the worst teams in the NFL but we don't suck is a hair splitting I'm not getting.

KazooSkinsFan wrote:

jeremyroyce wrote:Don't put words in my mouth boy.

Boy? That's RACIST. I'm black you know. Actually I'm not but I could be. I mean not really, but it's still racist, I'm not sure why.

I'll get back to you on this part.

jeremyroyce wrote:I never said that we suck, show me where I said that.

...

Well, yes I did predict that we would lose.

You said we should fire our first year coach, I took you to be part of the we'll lose to the Bungles crowd. Apparently I got the gist of it right even though I didn't in fact notice you'd picked against us in Hognostications. So anyway, saying we'll lose to one of the worst teams in the NFL but we don't suck is a hair splitting I'm not getting.

Look I'm sorry if what I said offended you but it seemed to me that words were being put in my mouth. No, I don't think that we suck at all. Again, if you take a look at my last post you will see why I picked the Bengals to win. Our offense is failing us, because the play calling does SUCK. Alot of the games that we lost, we could have won but the offense failed us and again all season long we keep putting our defense out on the field and expect them every game to save the game for us. Our defense was ranked 5th in the league before playing the Bengals. So, all I'm saying until Zorn shows me that he can make changes to his playbook and we can start attacking the other team defense we won't win because we can't score more then 10 points with the play calling.

jeremyroyce wrote:

John Manfreda wrote:

jeremyroyce wrote:

SkinFan63 wrote:

tribeofjudah wrote:

DaSkins24 wrote:Why does Zorn deserve to be fired after one year of mediocrity when Cerratto has led over years of mediocrity?

Bulls Eye.........GIVE ZORN A CHANCE MAN. Are we going to drop coaches and get new one EVERY YEAR.....

COME ON.........HOW RIDICULOUS IS THAT....???

Zorn isn't the problem.
He's some of it, but he isn't the cancer eating away at this team.
He just inherited it.

He inherited a team that made the playoffs last year. This team is a darn good football team, however the play calling again was terrible on offense. Would it hurt to throw the ball down the field? I've seen enough in Zorn and he isn't the answer. No change on the offense play calling same thing week in and week out and we lost again this time to a team that had only one win.

He did not inherit a playoff team, we went 5-7 under Campbell. No we did not make the playoffs with Campbell, Todd Collins came in and won four striaght games. He did not inherit a playoff team.

We did make the playoffs last season didn't we? Against Seattle?

Not face forward though.....we BACKED into it.

tribeofjudah wrote:

jeremyroyce wrote:

John Manfreda wrote:

jeremyroyce wrote:

SkinFan63 wrote:

tribeofjudah wrote:

DaSkins24 wrote:Why does Zorn deserve to be fired after one year of mediocrity when Cerratto has led over years of mediocrity?

Bulls Eye.........GIVE ZORN A CHANCE MAN. Are we going to drop coaches and get new one EVERY YEAR.....

COME ON.........HOW RIDICULOUS IS THAT....???

Zorn isn't the problem.
He's some of it, but he isn't the cancer eating away at this team.
He just inherited it.

He inherited a team that made the playoffs last year. This team is a darn good football team, however the play calling again was terrible on offense. Would it hurt to throw the ball down the field? I've seen enough in Zorn and he isn't the answer. No change on the offense play calling same thing week in and week out and we lost again this time to a team that had only one win.

He did not inherit a playoff team, we went 5-7 under Campbell. No we did not make the playoffs with Campbell, Todd Collins came in and won four striaght games. He did not inherit a playoff team.

We did make the playoffs last season didn't we? Against Seattle?

Not face forward though.....we BACKED into it.

Good Lord. We made the playoffs last season. The fact is we made it. We were a playoff team.

I couldn't believe I saw this thread on this board and couldn't believe the Post writers would go here...give me a freaking break!!!!

When a NFL team changes coaches a team will normally take a step back, temporarily... not always, but normally.

There is NO way a true fan of the Skins would want us to fire Zorn after one year. You must give the guy time to make this team, his team. He in essence, inherited 40 of these players from Gibbs... We can't start over AGAIN!!! Let's be patient and look strategically.

Give the guy a chance to make this work. We started off well and we all got spoiled. If we had gotten to 7-7 by one win, one loss, etc...we wouldn't even be talking about firing him.

I'm not convinced that Vinnie did him any favors by throwing 3 rookie WR/TE's on the roster. All along I've felt that one WR would have been perfect with a lineman or two, or a lb or cb with the other 2 @ 2nd round picks... Historically, WR's and TE's take a few years to mature and really help their team. Even Andre Johnson for the Texans wasn't a stud after a year. Does anyone think NE or Pitts would have drafted 3 WR's/TE's in the 2nd round??? NO way.

Recaping our off-season:
1) NO free agents of note -- E. James!
2) WR who has been hurt most of the year (Kelly);
3) WR who has done a little but appear to be learning (Thomas);
4) TE who hasn't done much (Davis);
5) Punter who stunk (what was his name?)
6) CB who isn't NFL ready (Tryon);
7) SS who could be a star (Horton)
OG who I'm not sure about yet (Reinhart)
9) SS who could be good but has been hurt a lot (moore)
10) QB -- 3rd stinger (Colt)
who else?

On top of that he had his LT not healthy for most of the year, his RT is washed up, the backup RT has been hurt a lot and not available to get the "starting" RT off the field, his strong side OLB has been hurt a lot and possibly finished, his best cb is 34 and always hurt, his starting SS was hurt 1/2 way through the year...on and on...

I don't blame the coach...give him time.

Chris Luva Luva wrote:

SkinsFreak wrote:Yes, the teams struggles are frustrating, but Zorn hasn't been the one to lose fumbles, get stupid penalties, miss blocks, miss tackles, shank punts, kick 'kick-offs' out of bounds, miss field goals... etc. The players still have to execute. Zorn will be here next year and he deserves to be.

His play calling at the goal line was abysmal.

Come on man. Giving the ball twice to a huge man to run up the middle is a bad call???? With less then a yard no less??? What did you want? Give the ball to ARE on an end around pass? A fade to Moss? A QB sneek? Statue of Liberty? I liked the playcalling. I hate the execution.

jeremyroyce wrote:Look I'm sorry if what I said offended you but it seemed to me that words were being put in my mouth

I was JOKING! Believe me, you need to do a lot more then that to offend me. I don't HAVE the disease, I'm just a carrier.

jeremyroyce wrote:All I'm saying until Zorn shows me that he can make changes to his playbook and we can start attacking the other team defense we won't win because we can't score more then 10 points with the play calling.

I agree with that, mostly. It's not just CALLING more aggressive plays. You have to build a team to attack, learn how to attack, get the players on the same page. He's a first year coach, give the guy a break. If you hadn't called for his head on a stick I wouldn't have really argued the other part though.

KazooSkinsFan wrote:

jeremyroyce wrote:Look I'm sorry if what I said offended you but it seemed to me that words were being put in my mouth

I was JOKING! Believe me, you need to do a lot more then that to offend me. I don't HAVE the disease, I'm just a carrier.

jeremyroyce wrote:All I'm saying until Zorn shows me that he can make changes to his playbook and we can start attacking the other team defense we won't win because we can't score more then 10 points with the play calling.

I agree with that, mostly. It's not just CALLING more aggressive plays. You have to build a team to attack, learn how to attack, get the players on the same page. He's a first year coach, give the guy a break. If you hadn't called for his head on a stick I wouldn't have really argued the other part though.

Normally I would say with a first year head coach give the guy a chance and I did give him a chance however the game against the Ravens told me alot. He is not the answer. I think that we have a team to attack on the offense side of the ball. However if you don't try to atleast attack you will never know what you got.

Play nice guys...

jeremyroyce wrote:Normally I would say with a first year head coach give the guy a chance and I did give him a chance however the game against the Ravens told me alot. He is not the answer. I think that we have a team to attack on the offense side of the ball. However if you don't try to atleast attack you will never know what you got.

You can't run much offense if your offensive line is getting mauled at the point of attack...

PulpExposure wrote:You can't run much offense if your offensive line is getting mauled at the point of attack...

Eh, I've seen plenty of QB's getting harassed game in and game out and they make big plays.

Chris Luva Luva wrote:

PulpExposure wrote:You can't run much offense if your offensive line is getting mauled at the point of attack...

Eh, I've seen plenty of QB's getting harassed game in and game out and they make big plays.

I say, shave the 'stache' and start bombing. He is a good QB, he just looks (to me) like he's afraid to take a chance down field. It's ok to be safe and secure if you can lean on the running game to bail you out. But at some point you need to start throwing and airing it out there so that they are not keying on the limping RB.

jeremyroyce wrote:Normally I would say with a first year head coach give the guy a chance and I did give him a chance however the game against the Ravens told me alot. He is not the answer. I think that we have a team to attack on the offense side of the ball. However if you don't try to atleast attack you will never know what you got.

You gave him a chance for less then a season and he's 7-7. He inherited an aging team and changed the Offensive philosophy of a team that wasn't scoring much in recent years either. Our D is still playing plenty well to win. How is that giving him a chance? Again I don't disagree with your frustration on the O, we ALL feel that. I still don't get what you're basing that you don't give him even one off season to improve or your belief you have given him a chance.

I'm not totally against the idea you fire a coach because it isn't working either. I was totally for canning Marty. I hated him and his management style. And he was a total clash with Danny and was only hired because Danny listened to his critics. It was CLEAR it wouldn't work. I'm just not seeing how we're there with Zorn because in his rookie season with an aging team, a battered O-Line and two pass catchers (one's a TE) he's not "attacking" enough and we need to can him now and not give him any off seasons to address it.

I still stand by the fact that if you fire Zorn, you will not find anybody who will want to come in a coach a team knowing they have to make a playoff appearence in their first year.

I think things will be better next year as more of the team becomes Zorn's. He was picked to be the coach, what, a month before the draft?

Now he's got some real expirience in what these players can do. He can make reccomendations not only on who to get in the offseason, but who to keep and whom to get rid of.

Bob 0119 wrote:I still stand by the fact that if you fire Zorn, you will not find anybody who will want to come in a coach a team knowing they have to make a playoff appearence in their first year

It's easy. If Snyder fires Zorn he's failing again to support a coach and allow us to develop any inconsistency and if he doesn't fire Zorn, there's something else wrong with him, I don't really follow it. In the end, Danny will never win by trying to satisfy his critics. The only reason I stand by him to a degree is that at least he does seem to learn from his mistakes and find a new set of mistakes to make. Better then repeating the same ones. Firing Zorn now would totally undercut that. Oh, and I like to argue too, that's the other reason. And I can't think of anyone more fun to argue with then Redskin bashers on a Redskin fan message board.

KazooSkinsFan wrote:If Snyder fires Zorn he's failing again to support a coach and allow us to develop any inconsistency and if he doesn't fire Zorn, there's something else wrong with him, I don't really follow it. In the end, Danny will never win by trying to satisfy his critics.

Its a culture that he has created himself, he has no one else to blame.

KazooSkinsFan wrote: The only reason I stand by him to a degree is that at least he does seem to learn from his mistakes and find a new set of mistakes to make. Better then repeating the same ones.

He has improved but he is in no way a quick learner...by any stretch of the imagination.

Chris Luva Luva wrote:

KazooSkinsFan wrote: The only reason I stand by him to a degree is that at least he does seem to learn from his mistakes and find a new set of mistakes to make. Better then repeating the same ones.

He has improved but he is in no way a quick learner...by any stretch of the imagination.

No, I can't argue that he's improving quickly. In the end, JKC wasn't so dissimilar to Snyder. He was never a football guru. But he found success when he found the right guys to put in place, Beathard and Gibbs. Frankly I'm not sure he added a lot of value to the debates between them, but at least he made a decision and funded it. It seems possible that Cerrato and Zorn could evolve into a similar structure, Danny seems to like them. I'm not predicting it so much as saying "if" it's going to work it's going to have to be that sort of arrangement and I'd like to find out and what I believe will not work is continuing to churn coaches.

Chris Luva Luva wrote:

PulpExposure wrote:You can't run much offense if your offensive line is getting mauled at the point of attack...

Eh, I've seen plenty of QB's getting harassed game in and game out and they make big plays.

He's taken the 4th most sacks in the NFL so far...

Matt Cassel has been sacked 44, and has 18 TD's. Aaron Rodgers, sacked 30 times, 23 TDs. Both players have far less playing experience than Campbell.

Poor pass pro and bad receivers were on the list of excuses last year for Jason Campbell's performance, even though he was only sacked 21 times in 13 games.

When you compare Campbell's stats for 2007-2008, the only significant difference is that he hasn't turned the ball over as much. Otherwise, it's pretty much same ole same ole, less than 1 TD per game (12) , same yards, same same.

But back to the point.......I'm not sure about Zorn, but think that he showed us something with a 6-2 start, and he may turn out to be a very good coach. He's made some very questionable decisions of late....some of them very disturbing....but it may be a case of "inexperience meet desperation", combined with a banged up O-line and a highly overrated QB doing what he does best.....showing flashes enough to offer hope, but failing to deliver when the chips are down.

Some of Zorn's "questionable" decisions might not have been made had the offense executed more consistently.....so I say Zorn should stay, and Campbell should go. We've already changed coaching staffs once to give Jason the "right" environment to succeed. Times up, coach killer.