The-Hogs.net - Washington Football Discussion, Redskins to Commanders Era

SKINS#1 wrote:Amen - and based on what we have seen this year TC is the starter. I will be pulling for JC to prove he is a better choice but this will be done by his performance on the field. No free pass based on potential.

Well said! The time to win is now.

People are concerned that we might have to pay starter salary to Collins? So what? This year we paid starter money to Mark Brunell and Brandon Lloyd. Neither of those guys helped us make the playoffs. To those of you who are concerned that we might have to pay Todd more money: Would you rather send Todd packing the same way we sent off Antonio Pierce, Fred Smoot and Ryan Clark? Would you rather bring in another high priced free agent instead? -- someone who hasn't done anything for the Skins yet?

To put it simple; The ONLY WAY Collins will get that nod is if he wins the SB this year. End of discussion.

My opinion, which seems to be in the minority (inexplicably) is that there is NO WAY Gibbs will (or should) hand the ball back to Campbell as long as Collins keeps playing the way he's playing. To do so would be beyond stupidity.

Right now, there is not a QB in the league playing better than Collins is, and this big turn around by the Redskins is in large measure due to Collins play.

After the Buffalo loss, had anyone said the Redskins would win out, and make the playoffs, I would have laughed in their face and called them crazy. I knew we had the ability....especially on defense, but the offense just wasn't putting up enough points to expect to beat the Bears, NYG, Vikings, and Cowboys in consecutive weeks. I figured we had a chance to beat the Bears in a defensive battle, but the rest looked like an impossible task. My guess at that time was we'd go maybe 2-2, never 4-0. And along came Collins. Who knew? Nobody.

Gibbs has just said he is surprised. He said Collins played very well in preseason, but attributed Collins success to playing inferior talent. Collins never got the chance to show what he could do against starters. Now, he has. And we ALL see what he has done.

All year long, the Redskins have played pretty well in the first half, only to falter and lose several close games in the end. Much of this, in retrospect, is because we never put teams away.....we let them hang around, nursing small leads that were eventually lost. With Collins, we've been putting enough points up to put teams far enough behind that we have been able to play more aggressive defensively, and counter any late surges with scores of our own. That's been the difference, averaging 8 points more per game.

Against the Bears, Collins put up 24 points in 33 minutes of play. Against NYG we put up a 19 point lead that carried us to the win. Against the Vikings we put together a 25 point lead that the Vikings couldn't overcome even with a 21 point second half effort.

Take 8 points away in each of those 3 games, and all of them could have been lost with one big play.

All of this is "cause and effect", and the reason why we were able to beat the Cowboys by 21 and keep them out of the endzone yesterday. Time of possession 37 to 23 minutes! 22 1st downs (16 by passes). Total plays 71-45. By consistently moving the ball on offense and scoring, we kept the defense fresh, and kept the ball away from the Cowboys offense. By maintaining a double digit lead, we're able to play more aggressively on defense, attacking instead of playing "prevent" defense.

This is the formula which has allowed the Patriots to dominate most opponents this year instead of just barely winning.

It's almost impossible to stop an offense that is connecting on timing patterns the way Collins is throwing the ball. In yesterdays game, he looked like Brady or Manning, with almost every throw dead on the money. We are also seeing many less dropped passes because the balls are where they are supposed to be.....not high and behind, but low and in front.

Anyone who doesn't see this turn around as a product of Collins play is just not paying attention or in total denial.

Why would you even consider taking the ball out of his hands and give it to JC who has proven nothing so far? The idea is silly.

RayNAustin wrote:My opinion, which seems to be in the minority (inexplicably) is that there is NO WAY Gibbs will (or should) hand the ball back to Campbell as long as Collins keeps playing the way he's playing. To do so would be beyond stupidity.

I'm with you. The next snap Campbell should take in the continuing developmental process is at the first OTA of 2008.

Campbell could get the Lazarus treatment tomorrow and Collins would still be the better choice.

RayNAustin wrote:Right now, there is not a QB in the league playing better than Collins is

Ok, now you're just being ridiculous. He's playing very well for us...but that's insane.

RayNAustin wrote:My opinion, which seems to be in the minority (inexplicably) is that there is NO WAY Gibbs will (or should) hand the ball back to Campbell as long as Collins keeps playing the way he's playing. To do so would be beyond stupidity.

...

Anyone who doesn't see this turn around as a product of Collins play is just not paying attention or in total denial.

Why would you even consider taking the ball out of his hands and give it to JC who has proven nothing so far? The idea is silly.

I have only seen one or two posters who advocate Jason being back under center this season. Joe has also made it clear the Todd will be his post-season starter. Where you are in the minority is thinking that Todd should become the team's permanent starter going into next season.

[quote="RayNAustin"]My opinion, which seems to be in the minority (inexplicably) is that there is NO WAY Gibbs will (or should) hand the ball back to Campbell as long as Collins keeps playing the way he's playing. To do so would be beyond stupidity.

Right now, there is not a QB in the league playing better than Collins is, and this big turn around by the Redskins is in large measure due to Collins play.

After the Buffalo loss, had anyone said the Redskins would win out, and make the playoffs, I would have laughed in their face and called them crazy. I knew we had the ability....especially on defense, but the offense just wasn't putting up enough points to expect to beat the Bears, NYG, Vikings, and Cowboys in consecutive weeks. I figured we had a chance to beat the Bears in a defensive battle, but the rest looked like an impossible task. My guess at that time was we'd go maybe 2-2, never 4-0. And along came Collins. Who knew? Nobody.

Gibbs has just said he is surprised. He said Collins played very well in preseason, but attributed Collins success to playing inferior talent. Collins never got the chance to show what he could do against starters. Now, he has. And we ALL see what he has done.

All year long, the Redskins have played pretty well in the first half, only to falter and lose several close games in the end. Much of this, in retrospect, is because we never put teams away.....we let them hang around, nursing small leads that were eventually lost. With Collins, we've been putting enough points up to put teams far enough behind that we have been able to play more aggressive defensively, and counter any late surges with scores of our own. That's been the difference, averaging 8 points more per game.

Against the Bears, Collins put up 24 points in 33 minutes of play. Against NYG we put up a 19 point lead that carried us to the win. Against the Vikings we put together a 25 point lead that the Vikings couldn't overcome even with a 21 point second half effort.

Take 8 points away in each of those 3 games, and all of them could have been lost with one big play.

All of this is "cause and effect", and the reason why we were able to beat the Cowboys by 21 and keep them out of the endzone yesterday. Time of possession 37 to 23 minutes! 22 1st downs (16 by passes). Total plays 71-45. By consistently moving the ball on offense and scoring, we kept the defense fresh, and kept the ball away from the Cowboys offense. By maintaining a double digit lead, we're able to play more aggressively on defense, attacking instead of playing "prevent" defense.

This is the formula which has allowed the Patriots to dominate most opponents this year instead of just barely winning.

It's almost impossible to stop an offense that is connecting on timing patterns the way Collins is throwing the ball. In yesterdays game, he looked like Brady or Manning, with almost every throw dead on the money. We are also seeing many less dropped passes because the balls are where they are supposed to be.....not high and behind, but low and in front.

Anyone who doesn't see this turn around as a product of Collins play is just not paying attention or in total denial.

Why would you even consider taking the ball out of his hands and give it to JC who has proven nothing so far? The idea is silly.[/quoteI
I agree Collins should be the starter this year and next, Campell just doesn't have it. He is too stupid, inaccurate downfield (Santana Moss looks like his old self because he has a Qb that can throw), and his release is horrible. Campell doesn't have what it takes to start in this league. Joe Gibbs isn't getting any younger lets start Collins because he has played great and HAS EARNED THE STARTING JOB FOR NEXT YEAR. With Joe Gibbs age we don't have time to wait and see with Campell especially since he has already shown he doesn't have it.

I think they won by 21 for a reason. And that would have happened no matter who was the starting QB.

RayNAustin wrote:After the Buffalo loss, had anyone said the Redskins would win out, and make the playoffs, I would have laughed in their face and called them crazy.

Dude Thay had like one day to get ready for that game. And their hearts and minds were not in that game.

To, me its much like the Saints last year. We saw what they can really do last year, but they had much higher emotion than any other team they played.

The down side is, the Saints could not find a way to carry that into this year. But I hope the Skins will find a way to keep it going.

John Manfreda wrote:
I agree Collins should be the starter this year and next, Campell just doesn't have it. He is too stupid, inaccurate downfield (Santana Moss looks like his old self because he has a Qb that can throw), and his release is horrible. Campell doesn't have what it takes to start in this league. Joe Gibbs isn't getting any younger lets start Collins because he has played great and HAS EARNED THE STARTING JOB FOR NEXT YEAR. With Joe Gibbs age we don't have time to wait and see with Campell especially since he has already shown he doesn't have it.

Are you a coach? How do you know so much. It's amazing that you know more than Gibbs who is at practice with Campbell every day. The single biggest reason this team is playing well is because of ST's death. This team is playing with a passion right now.

Santana couldn't be playing better right now because he's FINALLY playing with some passion could it? You're saying that Campbell is a worse QB because Santana could catch his ball. If he can't catch a ball, get rid of him. He sucked the first 12 games of the season until he started playing for ST.

If Gibbs changes his tune on Campbell, it's best for the team, and I will say that you are right. Until that time, no way Collins is the right person for this team next year and on.

BnGhog wrote:To, me its much like the Saints last year. We saw what they can really do last year, but they had much higher emotion than any other team they played.

The down side is, the Saints could not find a way to carry that into this year. But I hope the Skins will find a way to keep it going.

Gibbs wil make it happen

BnGhog wrote:To, me its much like the Saints last year. We saw what they can really do last year, but they had much higher emotion than any other team they played.

The down side is, the Saints could not find a way to carry that into this year. But I hope the Skins will find a way to keep it going.

They do not have a coach like Joe Gibbs

Ray, I think the biggest thing that a lot of people see is that free agents and over the hill gangs are a thing of the past. The 'skins drafted JC to be a franchise QB and if you pull him over this turmoil, then you're essentially saying, "JC, you're not going to work out." QBs, especially, are always a gamble in the draft. We've discussed it here enough, I'm not going to kick that dead horse.

Maybe JC doesn't have it, or maybe he is getting it, but needs more time. There are a lot of other contributing factors than QB A throws to receiver A and QB B throws to receiver A. I've seen the O-Line work a lot better about the same time Collins came in. I have a hard time believing that it was COMPLETELY, UNARGUABLY, JC's fault for all the hits he's taken in the backfield. He's been out a few times after being hit/sacked. Last I checked, the O-Line has ot protect him for him not to be hit/sacked.

Yes, Collins is executing the offense better, but where's the line for development vs execution... or now vs later. If the 'skins hold on to Collins next year, which I think we all agree would be the most prudent move, there will is three scenerios that are possible:
1. JC is handed back the offense.
2. TC is handed the offense.
3. There is a QB competition for offense next year.

The 2nd scenerio isn't realistic if you're trying to build for longevity. A 36 yo QB STARTING for his 1st full year with a new team isn't building for longevity. We've seen too many bad aides brought in via free-agency and would like to develop our draft picks, JC included. I think that a second year starting for a QB is ample time to judge to see if he's going to succeed in the offense he's running. To cut him off for 2-3 years isn't in the 'skins best interest.

RayNAustin wrote:Don't come to a gun fight with a cap pistol. You said exactly, and I quote you

. . .

Here you say you NEVER HEARD ANYONE USE THAT (points scored) AS A BENCHMARK...............Who is spinning what here?

Where do I misrepresent what you said???????????? You said it. Give it up, and go be loving to yourself.

Uhh. . .dude, I was responding to you using 'points scored' as the benchmark stat for grading a QB's performance. It doesn't count if you point out that you used it, because I. . .uh. . .noticed that.

. . .one might even say that that's what I was criticizing.

RayNAustin wrote:Got anything else to say???

Uh. . .yes. . .but I guess I'll wait until you address my argument. . .I don't like doing the work for both sides in a debate.

Campbell is the Washington Redskins starting QB and Collins is the #2

I still think that while Campbell is not completely ready to play and given that things on offense are working the way that they are we will stay with Collins. When Gibbs thinks that Campbell gives him the best chance to win he will be under center but for now I think he will continue to play with his #2 QB under center.

I also think that Collins will be offered a sizeable amount to stay as our #2 QB and I would be surprised if he were not with this team as the #2 QB next year. I am sure that we will be taking a closer look at him before next season but I am also sure that Campbell will show why he is the better QB.




This team is playing well together, that and a lot of emotion because of Sean Taylor is helping feed the momentum - no single player is responsible for the last 4 wins, well perhaps 1, but he is watching it all go down and hopefully can continue to help us out till this magic ride is finished in Arizona

RayNAustin wrote:After the Buffalo loss, had anyone said the Redskins would win out, and make the playoffs, I would have laughed in their face and called them crazy.

There were plenty here who never lost faith. Check out these threads:
http://www.the-hogs.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=25596
http://www.the-hogs.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=25421

Its not like campbell was doing bad, I think it is ignorant to say something like that. He was middle of the pack in qb rating and yards, and in the top ten in interception percentage, all in his first year as a starter. All this for a team that is run first and ,up until his injury, had pathetic play out of the WR position. Not to mention it takes a few years to truly be comfortable in that system. If any of them could catch, his completion percentage would be higher, which is very similar to collins, both around 60%. Collins is playing very well at the moment though. He still hasn't faced a healthy/good secondary yet. He made some throws yesterday that made me want to puke but he also threw some good timing routes. I think he will be the starter for the playoffs because the team is playing better with him in and he is healthy. If they want to play him next year, they are going to have to pay him starter money, which i don't see them doing. He is old. The main difference i notice is collins gets the ball to moss downfield. But i also noticed that moss has had trouble getting separation all year up to this point. He was WIDE open yesterday against the boys. I hadn't seen that all season, someone in the booth would have pointed it out by now. Maybe he is just healthy for once.

Chief started this thread by asking:

If we win against Dallas...Who's staring in the playoffs?

Reports say Campbell is a week away.

My vote is for Collins. We should put Campbell on IR. Starting him in the playoffs after this run could be devastating if he loses

Collins starts. And I don't believe reports that Campbell is that close to returning. A knee injury is a tricky thing. Why risk Kid Future?

*

Incidentally...29 pages on this???

welch wrote:Incidentally...29 pages on this???

No, only 22.

now 23.

Just about every two or three pages, the debate starts over.

JSPB22 wrote:

welch wrote:Incidentally...29 pages on this???

No, only 22.

now 23.

I moved 4 or 5

1niksder wrote:

JSPB22 wrote:

welch wrote:Incidentally...29 pages on this???

No, only 22.

now 23.

I moved 4 or 5

Yeah, I figured that out too late.

Well, it seems to me that the Redskins have made a terrible mistake by trading Norm Snead for Sonny Jurgensen. Snead was the QB of the future, the passer who could hit a receiver at 100 yards. Jurgensen had that one good year, but otherwise he was Norm Van Brocklin's backup, and then fell flat.

OK, try to run this argument in circles every four posts!

(Incidentally, that's what I thought way back when. Teenagers know a lot, don't they?)