The-Hogs.net - Washington Football Discussion, Redskins to Commanders Era

SkinsJock wrote:Tom Brady; Drew Brees; Derek Carr; Andrew Luck; Eli Manning; Marcus Mariotta; Cam Newton; Carson Palmer; Phillip Rivers; Aaron Rodgers; Ben Roethlisberger; Matt Ryan; Mathew Stafford; Russel Wilson; James Winston

Coming from the forum's best talent evaluator.......

Hopefully for your sake that list was a joke. I've revised your "list"..... based on reality and not subjectivity from being a butt-hurt RGIII fan...... In fact, I'm surprised RGIII wasn't included in your better than "list".....

Tom Brady; Drew Brees; Andrew Luck; Aaron Rodgers; Ben Roethlisberger; Matt Ryan; Russell Wilson;

There are a couple I did not include above whom the less informed would argue for, but those arguments would fall short when applying facts with those QB's production, opponent schedule, supporting OFF cast, coaching, and DEF support. And we have to make these judgments based on recent, relevant play and the conditions they were performed under. Yes, I agree that there are 1 or 2 that you could argue for (and one or two you could argue on the above list -- but lose) but that's all it would be --- an argument. Regardless, he's in the top 10, whether it is at #8 or #10.

Surprising you didn't even put in your comprehensive (and somewhat comical) list one of the QBs that was selected to the pro bowl AND another QB YOU PREVIOUSLY SAID WAS BETTER THAN COUSINS!!!!!!....

Speaking of contradictions ---- Your list also literally contradicts your whole "he's a good QB" mantra. Most (hopefully including you) wouldn't consider the 17-18th "best" QB in the league --- which is roughly 40% percentile --- as being "good". The correct term in this case is "below average"...... So, in an effort to maintain some semblance of consistency ---- I know, I know, something you struggle with ---- you should probably start saying that it's your opinion that all Cousins has proven is that he's a below average QB in the NFL ---- because that is what you're posts suggest/provide.

DarthMonk wrote:

SkinsJock wrote:... and each year somebody else will get more ...

You nailed it, bro. Wish we had pulled the trigger last year on what would be an absolute bargain 6 years later.

Last year, I wouldn't have flinched at giving him 20M a year. It would have been an easy decision. Throw 28M at him up front (making 15M of it a signing bonus, 12M a Y1 roster bonus), 1M Y1 salary, 10M guaranteed Y2, 12M guaranteed Y3, then 23M & 26M in Y4&5 non-guaranteed.

That way, we have cap hits of Y1-16M, Y2-13M, Y3-15M and if you wanted to cut him in Y4, you're looking at a 6M penalty. And if he produces, you have a QB with a manageable cap hit considering the raises.

We would have had a LOWER cap hit last year and a locked up QB. He would have taken 50M guaranteed without blinking. And if he didn't produce, he would have been a great #2, we could have most likely traded him, and/or we would have moved on via the draft (i.e., low cap hit QB).

I understood the rationale for franchising Cousins last year; however, if it were me that is what I would have done --- and mainly because (1) I always thought Cousins was good, this is well documented, (2) the Y1 cap hit being lower and (3) the options we would have had if he only marginally produced.

But yeah, Y1 Scot was awesome. Y2 Scot, not so much......

markshark84 wrote:

SkinsJock wrote: Tom Brady; Drew Brees; Andrew Luck; Aaron Rodgers; Ben Roethlisberger; Matt Ryan; Russell Wilson;

Coming from the forum's best talent evaluator.......

Hopefully for your sake that list was a joke. I've revised your "list"..... based on reality and not subjectivity from being a butt-hurt RGIII fan...... In fact, I'm surprised RGIII wasn't included in your better than "list".....

There are a couple I did not include above whom the less informed would argue for, but those arguments would fall short when applying facts with those QB's production, opponent schedule, supporting OFF cast, coaching, and DEF support. And we have to make these judgments based on recent, relevant play based on the conditions in which they were performed under. Yes, I agree that there are 1 or 2 that you could argue for (and one or two you could argue on the above list -- but lose) but that's all it would be --- an argument. Regardless, he's in the top 10, whether it is at #8 or #10.

Surprising you didn't even put in your comprehensive (and somewhat comical) list one of the QBs that was selected to the pro bowl AND another QB YOU PREVIOUSLY SAID WAS BETTER THAN COUSINS!!!!!!....

I'm not even sure Luck belongs in that list. I was impressed with how Cousins' pocket presence has developed this season. In the first few games, he missed several opportunities to extend plays by moving in, or even entirely out of, the pocket. But as the year went on, he got better and better at doing just that. There was a play in the Pro-Bowl, when he scrambled forward and to his right then hit OBJ in stride coming across the field for a first down. I'd like to keep Kirk, and see what he can do with support from an improved defense and a more balanced running/passing strategy on offense.

Kirk Cousins is one of the top 15 QBs in the NFL at this time and possibly top 10 - he's had 2 good years and he looks like he will continue to play well but there are ZERO indications that he will become an elite QB - NONE

Kirk Cousins is just a good NFL QB that might have some chance of being a little better but most likely will just continue to be a good QB

He's not proven to this FO or to most NFL people that he's ever going to be a really good NFL QB

my opinion is obviously biased - not because of RG3 but because he did not play well when we really needed him to - great QBs do that



I want whatever this FO wants but I really hope that Cousins goes for the money and we'll see what a difference maker he is ... or not

and it's REALLY STUPID to second guess this FO for not having a lot of faith in Cousins - the only fans that do that are ignorant

Deadskins wrote:

markshark84 wrote:

SkinsJock wrote: Tom Brady; Drew Brees; Andrew Luck; Aaron Rodgers; Ben Roethlisberger; Matt Ryan; Russell Wilson;

Coming from the forum's best talent evaluator.......

Hopefully for your sake that list was a joke. I've revised your "list"..... based on reality and not subjectivity from being a butt-hurt RGIII fan...... In fact, I'm surprised RGIII wasn't included in your better than "list".....

There are a couple I did not include above whom the less informed would argue for, but those arguments would fall short when applying facts with those QB's production, opponent schedule, supporting OFF cast, coaching, and DEF support. And we have to make these judgments based on recent, relevant play based on the conditions in which they were performed under. Yes, I agree that there are 1 or 2 that you could argue for (and one or two you could argue on the above list -- but lose) but that's all it would be --- an argument. Regardless, he's in the top 10, whether it is at #8 or #10.

Surprising you didn't even put in your comprehensive (and somewhat comical) list one of the QBs that was selected to the pro bowl AND another QB YOU PREVIOUSLY SAID WAS BETTER THAN COUSINS!!!!!!....

I'm not even sure Luck belongs in that list. I was impressed with how Cousins' pocket presence has developed this season. In the first few games, he missed several opportunities to extend plays by moving in, or even entirely out of, the pocket. But as the year went on, he got better and better at doing just that. There was a play in the Pro-Bowl, when he scrambled forward and to his right then hit OBJ in stride coming across the field for a first down. I'd like to keep Kirk, and see what he can do with support from an improved defense and a more balanced running/passing strategy on offense.

Yup. After reading your 2nd sentence, that exact play (without reading your 5th sentence) popped in my mind. That play in the PB was impressive.

This being said, when taking what Luck had in support last season ---- he's still better. If you were to offer me Luck for Cousins straight up, I'm taking Luck all day. Then again, if you offer me Cousins for Roeth --- I'm taking Cousins, because he's younger and Roeth is on the brink of retirement (or so he says) --- same with Brees.

So, when put into the context of "top 10" to build a franchise on a going forward basis --- Cousins may be top 5.....

Deadskins wrote:

markshark84 wrote:

Tom Brady; Drew Brees; Andrew Luck; Aaron Rodgers; Ben Roethlisberger; Matt Ryan; Russell Wilson;

I've revised your "list" ..... based on reality and not subjectivity

I'm not even sure Luck belongs in that list. I' was impressed with how Cousins' pocket presence has developed this season. In the first few games, he missed several opportunities to extend plays by moving in, or even entirely out of, the pocket. But as the year went on, he got better and better at doing just that. There was a play in the Pro-Bowl, when he scrambled forward and to his right then hit OBJ in stride coming across the field for a first down. I'd like to keep Kirk, and see what he can do with support from an improved defense and a more balanced running/passing strategy on offense.

I agree - Andrew Luck would be top 15 .... maybe

I'd also like to keep Cousins if he really wants to play here and agrees to play for a reasonable deal but no big loss if he doesn't

I hope this FO does whatever it can to only have players on the roster that really want to play here and get well compensated

SkinsJock wrote:Kirk Cousins is one of the top 15 QBs in the NFL at this time and possibly top 10 - he's had 2 good years and he looks like he will continue to play well but there are ZERO indications that he will become an elite QB - NONE

Kirk Cousins is just a good NFL QB that might have some chance of being a little better but most likely will just continue to be a good QB

I just can't keep up with you....... So now you say he's a "top 15 QB" ---- contradicting your previous list.....

And then you say he's possibly top 10...... "possibly" contradicting the same post

So WTF ARE you saying...... If you are going to make an opinion, do some research, form with supporting analysis, and stick to it. This may be surprising, but I do think you add value to the forum ---- but when you make a statement that comes across as fact, make sure you can back it up.

And "Good" QBs are better than the 12/13/14-16 range (depending on what separates them, it can fluctuate depending on how close the median/mean/etc are). So, again, you may want to rethink that one too......

IF Cousins had clearly proven that he is going to be a better QB going forward, we would not be having a discussion about what to do

This FO does not seem to think that is the case and unless Cousins wants to sign a deal that is going to pay him a lot of money but maybe not as much as he could get elsewhere, then this FO should try and get the 2 #1 draft picks for him and move on

I would like Cousins to play here but I hope he doesn't sign a long term deal here for a lot of money unless he really wants to play here

I disagree with your assessment that Cousins is almost an elite NFL QB - I think he's a good NFL QB and he might even improve a little which is great but I doubt that he will become a really good to elite status QB

He has had a couple of opportunities to show that he's a difference maker and he's failed - really good QBs don't just do this sometimes they do it all of the time

Kirk Cousins has definitely improved from 2013 and 2014 but he's also clearly not shown that he's going to get a lot better

markshark84 wrote:I just can't keep up with you .......

you should quit trying - that's not going to happen

OK... I'm ready to drop my $0.02...

Top ten- top fifteen... gtfoh!!! He is in the top FIVE peeps!! Look at my avatar, then call me bias! He holds nearly every single passing record (ever!) for a Redskins QB... WTF do you want??? Should he also punt like Sonny??? Or or... maybe he needs to ALSO be an elite Safety like Mr Sean Taylor to gain respect???

Delusional fans are non responsive to facts... fact is, Kirk Cousins is the best we've had behind center in my entire lifetime.... born 1985, so go ahead and take that as a knock to those "elite" sb qbs Mr Gibbs had! - Only, he did
it with three different guys huh?? And none were earth shattering greatness were they?

I posted last year how Kirk reminds me of a Matt Ryan type qb.. I leap frogged the red rocket, for I believe that Dalton is the Inferior qb measuring him vs Matty Ice.

Ahhhhhh, Matty Ice? When was that coined? Er, at least popularized??? Oh, this year? Season #8?!?

As hard as Kirk works, anyone who believes he can not attain this level ofq success, is straight up blinded by hate!

Homie nearly threw for 5 THOUSAND yards man!!!! #1 in yards before yac in the entire league!!! WTF?! Y'all think we can draft an NCAA qb at #17 and just keep on trucking like we didn't have a major setback???

Y'all smoking some good assssss good good for real tho

cowboykillerzRGiii wrote:Kirk Cousins is the best we've had behind center in my entire lifetime.... born 1985, so go ahead and take that as a knock to those "elite" sb qbs Mr Gibbs had! - Only, he didn't with three different guys huh?? And none were earth shattering greatness were they?

All three Gibbs QBs were better than Cousins. It's not about stats or Dan Marino would be the greatest QB ever.

Nah. Gibbs would've taken Kirk over at least two if those champs, if not all three!

People act like every loss is on the qb... news flash, our D was HISTORICALLY BAD!!!

Now, he damn sure could've done a little more... but quit measuring him against NFL qbs who have started for 5 years... Winston is the closer comparison, as both took the reins at the same time. Funny thing, he didn't make the playoffs either, yet some place him above Captain Kirk???

If Kirk had the Tampa D, we might be playing on Sunday!!!!

cowboykillerzRGiii wrote:OK... I'm ready to drop my $0.02...

Top ten- top fifteen... gtfoh!!! He is in the top FIVE peeps!! Look at my avatar, then call me bias! He holds nearly every single passing record (ever!) for a Redskins QB... WTF do you want??? Should he also punt like Sonny??? Or or... maybe he needs to ALSO be an elite Safety like Mr Sean Taylor to gain respect???

Delusional fans are non responsive to facts... fact is, Kirk Cousins is the best we've had behind center in my entire lifetime.... born 1985, so go ahead and take that as a knock to those "elite" sb qbs Mr Gibbs had! - Only, he did
it with three different guys huh?? And none were earth shattering greatness were they?

I posted last year how Kirk reminds me of a Matt Ryan type qb.. I leap frogged the red rocket, for I believe that Dalton is the Inferior qb measuring him vs Matty Ice.

Ahhhhhh, Matty Ice? When was that coined? Er, at least popularized??? Oh, this year? Season #8?!?

As hard as Kirk works, anyone who believes he can not attain this level ofq success, is straight up blinded by hate!

Homie nearly threw for 5 THOUSAND yards man!!!! #1 in yards before yac in the entire league!!! WTF?! Y'all think we can draft an NCAA qb at #17 and just keep on trucking like we didn't have a major setback???

Y'all smoking some good assssss good good for real tho

Agree with everything. But they've been calling him Matty Ice for at least five years.

cowboykillerzRGiii wrote: ... People act like every loss is on the qb... news flash, our D was HISTORICALLY BAD!!!
Now, he damn sure could've done a little more ... but quit measuring him against NFL qbs who have started for 5 years

You said it - he damn sure could've - but he didn't - really good QBs do that

I'm not saying that Cousins is not a good QB, he is - the 'comparisons' don't really matter and neither do his stats - what is important is that he has not proven that he's an elite QB - there are some that think he's going to become an elite QB and I just do not think that is happening

I also used to be a RG3 fan ... I'd like Cousins to play here but not if he doesn't want to or if he'll only play here if we give him a HUGE deal

we need players that want to play here not guys that just want what they can get when they can - BS

Tom Brady does not want or demand to be the highest paid QB - some have said it's because he has Giselle - those fans are IGNORANT, that is BS - Tom Brady is motivated by winning and having good players around him so he doesn't take a huge salary

This FO will give Cousins a great deal but if he wants more, I really, really hopes he's playing elsewhere - He's not good enough

SkinsJock wrote:we need players that want to play here not guys that just want what they can get when they can - BS

You're insane. This is a business with a short shelf life for players. They deserve to make as much money as they can negotiate themselves. Your personal feelings about a player's "worth" or his loyalty to a team are irrelevant.

riggofan wrote:

SkinsJock wrote:we need players that want to play here not guys that just want what they can get when they can - BS

You're insane. This is a business with a short shelf life for players. They deserve to make as much money as they can negotiate themselves. Your personal feelings about a player's "worth" or his loyalty to a team are irrelevant.

Yup. It's not like NFL contracts are 100% guaranteed in the salary cap era.

Loyalty is for baseball.

cowboykillerzRGiii wrote:OK... I'm ready to drop my $0.02...

Top ten- top fifteen... gtfoh!!! He is in the top FIVE peeps!! Look at my avatar, then call me bias! He holds nearly every single passing record (ever!) for a Redskins QB... WTF do you want??? Should he also punt like Sonny??? Or or... maybe he needs to ALSO be an elite Safety like Mr Sean Taylor to gain respect???

Delusional fans are non responsive to facts... fact is, Kirk Cousins is the best we've had behind center in my entire lifetime.... born 1985, so go ahead and take that as a knock to those "elite" sb qbs Mr Gibbs had! - Only, he did
it with three different guys huh?? And none were earth shattering greatness were they?

I posted last year how Kirk reminds me of a Matt Ryan type qb.. I leap frogged the red rocket, for I believe that Dalton is the Inferior qb measuring him vs Matty Ice.

Ahhhhhh, Matty Ice? When was that coined? Er, at least popularized??? Oh, this year? Season #8?!?

As hard as Kirk works, anyone who believes he can not attain this level ofq success, is straight up blinded by hate!

Homie nearly threw for 5 THOUSAND yards man!!!! #1 in yards before yac in the entire league!!! WTF?! Y'all think we can draft an NCAA qb at #17 and just keep on trucking like we didn't have a major setback???

Y'all smoking some good assssss good good for real tho

It is nice to finally see us on the same side (and deadskins to boot)!!!

Only thing (and deadskins eluded to it) but Ryan has been called Matty Ice for a very long time. ESPN actually wrote an article on it recently:

http://www.espn.com/college-football/st ... ed-mystery

Burgundy&GoldForever wrote: All three Gibbs QBs were better than Cousins. It's not about stats or Dan Marino would be the greatest QB ever.

I think it is a difficult discussion to have when you set false parameters ---- as you have done. First, stats do matter. Just as the HOF committee. And secondly, if only stats mattered, Marino wouldn't be considered the greatest ever --- not even in the top 4. Manning, Favre, Brees, and Brady are all ahead of him in pass yards and TDs.... And while clearly SBs matter, they aren't everything ---- especially considering the fact Marino is still placed WELL above QBs with MULTIPLE SB rings. So yeah, while I am sure you believe what you said, your statement is clearly false.

And which 3 are you including --- because you can't include Williams in there. I was actually at a SB LI party last night and we were discussing this issue ---- the consensus was Williams had perhaps one of the best SB games in history, but outside that, in the best light he was mediocre. I think a better argument can be made for Schroeder to be included in that "3" with Rypien and Theismann.

I agree that Theismann up to this point should be considered better without question.

Rypien, who is my favorite redskins player of all time (well, tied with Clark --- hence the "84" in my screename), is arguable. With QBs, there are so many variables. Rypien's support was FAR FAR FAR superior to Cousins' --- like to the point it would be comical to even compare them. You put Cousins behind that OL and run game and who knows what he would have done. We also had a pretty consistent top 5 DEF in Rypien's prime years.....

I think the better question is would you rather have 2017 Cousins or 1990 Rypien with the current team. And I think that is a very difficult question. My answer would be Cousins ---- coming from one of the biggest Rypien fans out there --- but it would be close, REAL close. Because for purposes of this debate, you have to include their contribution to the team's overall performance and their future potential ---- because since we know Rypien's fate, we don't know Cousins'. When you look at the PFR "Added Value" stat, Cousins had a 12 rating in 2015 and 15 in 2016 --- compared against Rypien's 12 in 1989 and 8 in 1990. That said, Rypien did severly hurt his shoulder in the 1991 pro bowl --- which lead to his reduced production in future years.

But in the end --- better than Williams/Schroeder. Worse than Theismann. Tied/slightly better than Rypien.

Let's come back to this thread in three years when Kirk Cousins still hasn't won more than ten games in the regular season and the team still hasn't won a playoff game.

Burgundy&GoldForever wrote:Let's come back to this thread in three years when Kirk Cousins still hasn't won more than ten games in the regular season and the team still hasn't won a playoff game.

that's if he's still here - hopefully we've found a winning QB that just wants to win games more than getting paid for putting up great stats

markshark84 wrote:

Burgundy&GoldForever wrote: All three Gibbs QBs were better than Cousins. It's not about stats or Dan Marino would be the greatest QB ever.

I think it is a difficult discussion to have when you set false parameters ---- as you have done. First, stats do matter. Just as the HOF committee. And secondly, if only stats mattered, Marino wouldn't be considered the greatest ever --- not even in the top 4. Manning, Favre, Brees, and Brady are all ahead of him in pass yards and TDs.... And while clearly SBs matter, they aren't everything ---- especially considering the fact Marino is still placed WELL above QBs with MULTIPLE SB rings. So yeah, while I am sure you believe what you said, your statement is clearly false.

And which 3 are you including --- because you can't include Williams in there. I was actually at a SB LI party last night and we were discussing this issue ---- the consensus was Williams had perhaps one of the best SB games in history, but outside that, in the best light he was mediocre. I think a better argument can be made for Schroeder to be included in that "3" with Rypien and Theismann.

I agree that Theismann up to this point should be considered better without question.

Rypien, who is my favorite redskins player of all time (well, tied with Clark --- hence the "84" in my screename), is arguable. With QBs, there are so many variables. Rypien's support was FAR FAR FAR superior to Cousins' --- like to the point it would be comical to even compare them. You put Cousins behind that OL and run game and who knows what he would have done. We also had a pretty consistent top 5 DEF in Rypien's prime years.....

I think the better question is would you rather have 2017 Cousins or 1990 Rypien with the current team. And I think that is a very difficult question. My answer would be Cousins ---- coming from one of the biggest Rypien fans out there --- but it would be close, REAL close. Because for purposes of this debate, you have to include their contribution to the team's overall performance and their future potential ---- because since we know Rypien's fate, we don't know Cousins'. When you look at the PFR "Added Value" stat, Cousins had a 12 rating in 2015 and 15 in 2016 --- compared against Rypien's 12 in 1989 and 8 in 1990. That said, Rypien did severly hurt his shoulder in the 1991 pro bowl --- which lead to his reduced production in future years.

But in the end --- better than Williams/Schroeder. Worse than Theismann. Tied/slightly better than Rypien.

Context matters. The reply was to the point that Cousins threw for almost 5,000 yards this season. I just pulled Marino's name out of the guys who have thrown for 5,000+ yards in a single season. He was the first to do it. In a rushing dominant league back in 1984.

Williams spent the majority of his career in Tampa Bay, which was the dregs of the league for any QB. He was far better than his record indicates. He spent five season in TB, leading them to three winning seasons, and then two as a backup in DC where he started all of two games. The first season he started more than ten games in DC was 1988.

Rypien set NFL records up one side and down the other in 1991 alone.

Theismann went 77-47 for his career. He went 6-2 in the playoffs.

I suppose some might argue Williams case but I wouldn't. He put together the greatest 15 minutes in NFL history on the biggest stage, as a backup forced to start.

I'm not even sure there's a valid comparison to that in the history of the game.

Williams is remembered for that to this day, and it happened 29 years ago.

29 years from now, Kirk Cousins hasn't yet done anything that would be remembered.

Burgundy&GoldForever wrote:

markshark84 wrote:

Burgundy&GoldForever wrote: All three Gibbs QBs were better than Cousins. It's not about stats or Dan Marino would be the greatest QB ever.

I think it is a difficult discussion to have when you set false parameters ---- as you have done. First, stats do matter. Just as the HOF committee. And secondly, if only stats mattered, Marino wouldn't be considered the greatest ever --- not even in the top 4. Manning, Favre, Brees, and Brady are all ahead of him in pass yards and TDs.... And while clearly SBs matter, they aren't everything ---- especially considering the fact Marino is still placed WELL above QBs with MULTIPLE SB rings. So yeah, while I am sure you believe what you said, your statement is clearly false.

And which 3 are you including --- because you can't include Williams in there. I was actually at a SB LI party last night and we were discussing this issue ---- the consensus was Williams had perhaps one of the best SB games in history, but outside that, in the best light he was mediocre. I think a better argument can be made for Schroeder to be included in that "3" with Rypien and Theismann.

I agree that Theismann up to this point should be considered better without question.

Rypien, who is my favorite redskins player of all time (well, tied with Clark --- hence the "84" in my screename), is arguable. With QBs, there are so many variables. Rypien's support was FAR FAR FAR superior to Cousins' --- like to the point it would be comical to even compare them. You put Cousins behind that OL and run game and who knows what he would have done. We also had a pretty consistent top 5 DEF in Rypien's prime years.....

I think the better question is would you rather have 2017 Cousins or 1990 Rypien with the current team. And I think that is a very difficult question. My answer would be Cousins ---- coming from one of the biggest Rypien fans out there --- but it would be close, REAL close. Because for purposes of this debate, you have to include their contribution to the team's overall performance and their future potential ---- because since we know Rypien's fate, we don't know Cousins'. When you look at the PFR "Added Value" stat, Cousins had a 12 rating in 2015 and 15 in 2016 --- compared against Rypien's 12 in 1989 and 8 in 1990. That said, Rypien did severly hurt his shoulder in the 1991 pro bowl --- which lead to his reduced production in future years.

But in the end --- better than Williams/Schroeder. Worse than Theismann. Tied/slightly better than Rypien.

Context matters. The reply was to the point that Cousins threw for almost 5,000 yards this season. I just pulled Marino's name out of the guys who have thrown for 5,000+ yards in a single season. He was the first to do it. In a rushing dominant league back in 1984.

Williams spent the majority of his career in Tampa Bay, which was the dregs of the league for any QB. He was far better than his record indicates. He spent five season in TB, leading them to three winning seasons, and then two as a backup in DC where he started all of two games. The first season he started more than ten games in DC was 1988.

Rypien set NFL records up one side and down the other in 1991 alone.

Theismann went 77-47 for his career. He went 6-2 in the playoffs.

I suppose some might argue Williams case but I wouldn't. He put together the greatest 15 minutes in NFL history on the biggest stage, as a backup forced to start. I'm not even sure there's a valid comparison to that in the history of the game. Williams is remembered for that to this day, and it happened 29 years ago. 29 years from now, Kirk Cousins hasn't yet done anything that would be remembered.

I don't disagree that context matters in some ways ---- in fact, I said (and referenced circumstances) as much in my previous post. And to reiterate; stats do matter, a good deal --- that isn't even debatable; otherwise Plunkett would be in the HOF and Kelly, Moon, Sonny, Fouts, etc. wouldn't.

And it appears that you have diverged from your original statement. If you are asking which QB is more historically relevant --- then they all lose to Williams. But that's not the issue ---- the issue that was introduced and I opined on was who is the "better QB". That clearly goes to Cousins (vs. Williams) --- and I think almost everyone would agree. To say that Williams is "better" because of the fact he was the first black QB to win a SB or simply that he won a SB ---- doesn't make him "better" than his production or his 8-9 redskins record says he was. But do those circumstances make him an icon ---- absolutely.

For Rypien you only reference 1991, but one year doesn't make a career (as we see with Williams) --- and for Rypien, he wasn't a one year wonder. The dude made 2 pro bowls and had 4 VERY productive seasons before his injury. His 1991 season was the best production of any QB in redskins history --- but putting into Cousins' context, that was in Rypien's 3rd season as starter; a place Cousins hasn't gotten to yet. It was also done with one of the best top to bottom teams in the history of the game (some say the best ever) --- we were #1 in points scored and #2 in points against that year. We had 3 great RBs, 3 great WRs, the best OL in football, a great TE, the best DEF in the game. Rypien got sacked 7 times that SEASON ---- 7 times in total!!!! If you put Rypien on our 2016 team is he "breaking records" --- no way. And these are all relevant details, because again, this debate is on who is the "best QB" --- not who had the best or most historic season. But even after all this is said, I agree, it is a difficult determination, but goes slightly in Cousins' favor given the circumstances.

Kirk Cousins had great stats in 2016 but other than some very biased fans here, there are not a lot of fans that would rather have him than their current QB - that would not be the case if Cousins was considered a winning QB - he hasn't proven that yet

what is driving up Cousins market value is those stats and MOST IMPORTANTLY who else is available - if a lot of current QBs were available, Cousins market value would not be near as high as it is

the SMART THING to do with Cousins is to offer a long term deal that is good for both sides - if he wants more then get the best you can

SkinsJock wrote:

Burgundy&GoldForever wrote:Let's come back to this thread in three years when Kirk Cousins still hasn't won more than ten games in the regular season and the team still hasn't won a playoff game.

that's if he's still here - hopefully we've found a winning QB that just wants to win games more than getting paid for putting up great stats

YOU DID IT!!!

I've argued both sides of this and I'm convinced the two key factors here are:

1) How difficult it is to find a starting quarterback.

And

2) How difficult it is for the Redskins to find starting quarterbacks.

Because of those factors above all others I think they overpay to keep Cousins a Washington Redskin.