The-Hogs.net - Washington Football Discussion, Redskins to Commanders Era

Remember when beating the Dallas Cowboys was a big deal? Our franchise QB (lol) cant beat an injury depleted Cowboys team on MNF last year and lost twice to a rookie QB Cowboys team who picked in the top 5 in the draft last year. He beat them at the very end last year when they had given up but has lost every other meeting. The 2015 playoff berth wasn't us winning- it was us backing into it- and embarrassing ourselves when we got there.

So basically youre telling me that a 6 year vet who can't win against Dallas, can't win a playoff game, can't lead his team to a playoff berth , who took 4 plus years to beat any team with a winning record, cant win on MNF and says dumb quotes like You Like that is worth 100m?

Why do the Redskins insist on paying players who don't produce results?

I won't lose any sleep if we don't resign him. He can't play under pressure in must win games. See Dallas last year and Carolina and last night this year.

hitmandm wrote:I've been saying it for years and haven't been wrong yet. Captain Pick and Fat Gruden aren't going to deliver crap. Captain Pick can't win real games against real competition and Fat Gruden is too stupid to be a real coach. He is an AFL coach and belongs back in the arena league. Hopefully Gruden is closer to being fired due to incompetence.

If we can get 2 first rounders for Captain Pick we should do it. What a waste of 20 million in salary cap.

I agree. I now believe Kirk isn't who I thought he was. If we can get a couple decent picks for him; do it. If he stays, he shouldn't put much of a dent into the cap space.

Chris Luva Luva wrote:Kirk has choked away too many big games to demand the payday he's seeking. I'm fine with him being the starter, but not at that price point.

I agree, save the cap space and continue to add talent to this team.

hitmandm wrote: So basically youre telling me that a 6 year vet who can't win against Dallas, can't win a playoff game, can't lead his team to a playoff berth , who took 4 plus years to beat any team with a winning record, cant win on MNF and says dumb quotes like You Like that is worth 100m?

Why do the Redskins insist on paying players who don't produce results?

Wow, not sure we're to start with this post. Let's start with the fact that this is Kirk's 5th season, 2nd as a starter and he's 5 games over.500 with a division title under his belt. He's done this with no running game and a historically bad defense. Take a look at the last decade of SB winning teams and you'll see defenses that contributed and in some cases won the game, this on teams that included Brady, Manning, and Brees. Interceptions can be coached, go look at the Interceptions of guys like Manning and Brees early in their careers. I love how the fans just lament about getting rid of Cousins with no mention of alternatives! No one has paid Kirk 100 million yet, let him hit the market and see how quickly teams offer that!! If you think Kirk doesn't still have leverage you're crazy.

Cousins is an above average passer IMO. On good days, he is very good. On bad days, he is pretty bad. The last half of the season, except against that awful Green Bay defense, he was bad alot. At this point, Cousins should not be considered among the top eight or nine qbs, in the NFL. Maybe in the next tier. Nine to 15. Cousins and his coaches have to get past piling up stats and focus more on making the plays to win games. Who cares now how many 300 yard games he had or how many pretty passes he threw during the season. It only matters what he did in certain situations with a drive or a game on the line when it really mattered. He has to make better decisions at crucial moments if he wants to be considered a quality NFL qb. He does not have to be perfect every week. But, he has to be good when the team needs him to be good. He has to will his team to victory sometimes. That is what the best qbs. do. I hope in the off-season, he will think about what he personally needs to do and improve on to be a guy worthy of the big contract he is going to get. Team talk is nice for the media interviews. But, he knows his play cost them more at times than it should have in the big games.

I believe a more simple way to question Cousins worth is to ask yourself whether or not you would want him backing you up in a bar fight. What would he do in that situation? No doubt Kirk has the book smarts, but I would like to see him have the savy, street smarts and the toughness of a true leader

DEHog wrote:

hitmandm wrote: So basically youre telling me that a 6 year vet who can't win against Dallas, can't win a playoff game, can't lead his team to a playoff berth , who took 4 plus years to beat any team with a winning record, cant win on MNF and says dumb quotes like You Like that is worth 100m?

Why do the Redskins insist on paying players who don't produce results?

Wow, not sure we're to start with this post. Let's start with the fact that this is Kirk's 5th season, 2nd as a starter and he's 5 games over.500 with a division title under his belt. He's done this with no running game and a historically bad defense. Take a look at the last decade of SB winning teams and you'll see defenses that contributed and in some cases won the game, this on teams that included Brady, Manning, and Brees. Interceptions can be coached, go look at the Interceptions of guys like Manning and Brees early in their careers. I love how the fans just lament about getting rid of Cousins with no mention of alternatives! No one has paid Kirk 100 million yet, let him hit the market and see how quickly teams offer that!! If you think Kirk doesn't still have leverage you're crazy.

The alternative is building up the defense and having a cheaper QB operate the offense.

StorminMormon86 wrote:

DEHog wrote:

hitmandm wrote: So basically youre telling me that a 6 year vet who can't win against Dallas, can't win a playoff game, can't lead his team to a playoff berth , who took 4 plus years to beat any team with a winning record, cant win on MNF and says dumb quotes like You Like that is worth 100m?

Why do the Redskins insist on paying players who don't produce results?

Wow, not sure we're to start with this post. Let's start with the fact that this is Kirk's 5th season, 2nd as a starter and he's 5 games over.500 with a division title under his belt. He's done this with no running game and a historically bad defense. Take a look at the last decade of SB winning teams and you'll see defenses that contributed and in some cases won the game, this on teams that included Brady, Manning, and Brees. Interceptions can be coached, go look at the Interceptions of guys like Manning and Brees early in their careers. I love how the fans just lament about getting rid of Cousins with no mention of alternatives! No one has paid Kirk 100 million yet, let him hit the market and see how quickly teams offer that!! If you think Kirk doesn't still have leverage you're crazy.

The alternative is building up the defense and having a cheaper QB operate the offense.

Yep that's one way to go, we basically had that setup with RG/Kirk the last 4 years. Like Seatlle a few years back and Dallas this year. I've wanted a D minded coach here for years...if you look at the past decade it's really the defense that made the different for winning championships. Of course this way is predicated on finding that Wilson or Prescott in the draft...

NYFINESTSKINSFAN wrote:

Chris Luva Luva wrote:Kirk has choked away too many big games to demand the payday he's seeking. I'm fine with him being the starter, but not at that price point.

I agree, save the cap space and continue to add talent to this team.

The problem is if we let Kirk go, then it will be less attractive for defensive FA. The only way to get those FA will be over paying them like we've seen in the past. Let's hope we draft well. I don't think Kirk is the best Redskins player in decades. He's a good qb, but not great. We are stuck with him. He's our best option for the immediate future.

StorminMormon86 wrote:I won't lose any sleep if we don't resign him. He can't play under pressure in must win games. See Dallas last year and Carolina and last night this year.

Bloody hail hyperbole much everybody?! It's way to soon to label Cousins is "the guy who blows big games." He's only in his second year of starting. How many said he would never handle his interception problem; shake off a bad play and push forward?

QBs don't just come out fully developed ready to go as soon as they're drafted. So far Big Cuz has progressed each year he's been in the leauge.

I stand by my assertion the Kirk Cousins the best Redskin in decades. He just finished another great year of quarterbacking, he is two for two now with consecutive record setting years. He carried a team bereft of a running game with a very defense to another winning season. If the Redskins acquire the talent to field a respectable defense and running game Kirk will lead them to Super Bowls. Mike Shahanan was more prescient about Kirk than anyone when he said he is a young Drew Brees, the comparison is perfect and when the Skins balance this team by improving the defense and running game The Skins will be champions.

His critics here and elsewhere don't know what talent looks like in my opinion. I think it is fair to note his detractors were the last men standing of the Griffin bandwagon and the ones most annoyed with Cousins flashing promise during Cousins first 3 seasons. It irritated these critics that Kirk was able to execute a pro offense while their hero was lost in the pocket and needed to be provided a dummied down, high school red option game plan to function. These critics littered this board and others with dismissive assessments of Kirk. They said he was only a backup because he had a low ceiling, he had already peaked, he was an interception machine and a head case. Shamelessly they now continue their petty criticism after being proven so wrong, so wrong about everything.

Happy New Years guys! We have a long wait now until the draft but despite the disappointing end to the season I think we have much to look forward to next season. Scot needs to add some muscle to the lines. I hope he does that with the top picks.

Funny how a few people who haven't posted since week three show up to gloat about their doom and gloom predictions.

My opinion of Cousins basically hasn't changed. He's the answer at QB, IMHO. Pay the man so we can focus on building the rest of the team.

Kirk Cousins is the best QB available and we should pay him to stay here, not because he's a great (or future great) QB but because he's the best QB available - I doubt that he gets the BIG deal he thought he would get mainly because of the MNF game and the game yesterday - PLUS - there were also a number of times this season that he just did not show that special quality that elite QBs have

Kirk Cousins is a very good passing QB and he will amass incredible yardage - he also missed a lot of wide open receivers for TDs

he's not going to be that special QB or leader of this franchise

hopefully Scot continues to rebuild this franchise - Kirk Cousins is good enough and it will give us time to find a really good QB




Kirk Cousins will get more than he's worth because of the QB market but he's not getting a lot and we will certainly not be hurting our ability to continue to pay all the players we need - that's the most important thing here

I'm growing weary reading all these glowing stats about Cousins when he cannot deliver when the team needs him to deliver. He has had plenty of time and opportunity to develop/show his mettle. I like the guy but he cannot step-up when either the stakes are high and/or he is under the lights (of national television). If he is reasonable to keep, then do so. But if he is going to "go Flacco" on us, then no

RigAr4456 wrote:I'm growing weary reading all these glowing stats about Cousins when he cannot deliver when the team needs him to deliver. He has had plenty of time and opportunity to develop/show his mettle. I like the guy but he cannot step-up when either the stakes are high and/or he is under the lights (of national television). If he is reasonable to keep, then do so. But if he is going to "go Flacco" on us, then no

Cousins 'worth' is not based on how good he is as a QB, it's based on availability and fair market value

who is available that you would prefer to Cousins?

Cousins is going to get a good deal because there are just no good NFL QBs available

Cousins will be here because both sides will want to make a deal - Cousins doesn't want to go to the Browns and we need a QB

I could really care less if he is worth $25 Million. I wouldn't pay him that simply because I would rather build a team within the framework of my own goals and standards not by the "latest trend" of overpaying for QB's that the rest of the league is doing. Stay true to what you are and if that really is what Scot is then so be it

RigAr4456 wrote:I'm growing weary reading all these glowing stats about Cousins when he cannot deliver when the team needs him to deliver. He has had plenty of time and opportunity to develop/show his mettle. I like the guy but he cannot step-up when either the stakes are high and/or he is under the lights (of national television).

The man has eight 4th quarter comeback drives to win games, including four this year. He's also played lights out in some big games. Yes, he lost the one playoff game he's started and we just lost a game that was win or go home. So what. He's going to hit more of those kinds of games too if he just gets more chances.

Irn-Bru wrote:

RigAr4456 wrote:I'm growing weary reading all these glowing stats about Cousins when he cannot deliver when the team needs him to deliver. He has had plenty of time and opportunity to develop/show his mettle. I like the guy but he cannot step-up when either the stakes are high and/or he is under the lights (of national television).

The man has eight 4th quarter comeback drives to win games, including four this year. He's also played lights out in some big games. Yes, he lost the one playoff game he's started and we just lost a game that was win or go home. So what. He's going to hit more of those kinds of games too if he just gets more chances.

I think it's fair to project that Kirk can overcome this issue, I want to believe that he can. But it's equally relevant to point out the circumstances surrounding some of the comeback wins. While credible and relevant... And Cooley admitted to this on today's broadcast. There's a distinction between winning important games and the games Kirk has lost on the "big stage". The stage including last seasons playoff lost where Kirk performed in a middling manner. His disappearance in the Carolina game and yesterdays game. While the Bears game was surely important, there's distinction some of us are drawing between it and the "big stage games".

DEHog wrote:

hitmandm wrote: So basically youre telling me that a 6 year vet who can't win against Dallas, can't win a playoff game, can't lead his team to a playoff berth , who took 4 plus years to beat any team with a winning record, cant win on MNF and says dumb quotes like You Like that is worth 100m?

Why do the Redskins insist on paying players who don't produce results?

Wow, not sure we're to start with this post. Let's start with the fact that this is Kirk's 5th season, 2nd as a starter and he's 5 games over.500 with a division title under his belt. He's done this with no running game and a historically bad defense. Take a look at the last decade of SB winning teams and you'll see defenses that contributed and in some cases won the game, this on teams that included Brady, Manning, and Brees. Interceptions can be coached, go look at the Interceptions of guys like Manning and Brees early in their careers. I love how the fans just lament about getting rid of Cousins with no mention of alternatives! No one has paid Kirk 100 million yet, let him hit the market and see how quickly teams offer that!! If you think Kirk doesn't still have leverage you're crazy.

Ok Ok... Next year he is a 6 year vet. Fine. And he is 5 games over .500? So What? He doesn't beat winning teams. He doesn't beat teams when the pressure is on. Winning teams are what is in the playoffs. Winning teams are what you need to beat to get to the SB. That Division Champion thing was a fluke. We backed into it because the NFCE blew up and everyone knows it.

A 29 year old QB who chokes the big game away constantly, who racks up stats at garbage time and has a history of wilting when it matters the most isn't all of a sudden going to become a world beating SB champion. He is not comparable to Brees, Manning and Brady. In fact, if he didn't have a real talent like Jordan Reed playing he wouldn't be even a middle of the pack starter.

He does have leverage. Franchise him, draft a QB and develop the QB for the following year when we are here again listening to all the KC homers making excuses for his choking and unbelievably comparing him to winners like Brady, Manning and Brees. The Redskins have the 17th pick. They need to target a QB in a bad way. We cannot be constantly held hostage by an overrated QB who is wasting away a talented offense with poor play when it matters the most. Just imagine if we would have drafted Dak Prescott- the rookie who beat KC twice this year. We need to start creating leverage for ourselves and not allow overrated and underperforming losers like KC dictate our salary cap.

You people kill me, with the just draft a QB imagine if we drafted this guy etc....Why haven't we done it for the past 25 years?? Nobody knew Dak was going to be that good, he'd never seen the field if Romo doesn't get hurt...remember everyone saying the Boys would be .500 without Romo. Cousins beat the Packers and Giants, they are playoff team. I believe we are a few defensive player away from being a really good team. Please don't think I'm comparing him to those guys, I'm just pointing out that Manning wouldn't have two SB rings if it wasn't for his defense...he'd be the fist to tell you that.

DEHog wrote:You people kill me, with the just draft a QB imagine if we drafted this guy etc....Why haven't we done it for the past 25 years?? Nobody knew Dak was going to be that good, he'd never seen the field if Romo doesn't get hurt...remember everyone saying the Boys would be .500 without Romo. Cousins beat the Packers and Giants, they are playoff team. I believe we are a few defensive player away from being a really good team. Please don't think I'm comparing him to those guys, I'm just pointing out that Manning wouldn't have two SB rings if it wasn't for his defense...he'd be the fist to tell you that.

Cousins is a helluva QB. And I think maybe he needs more around him than we suspect. A lot of fans listen to Kevin Sheehan and Chris Cooley call Kirk elite on their radio show. I listen to it religiously and they have crowned him as such, with Kevin being more dreamy about Kirk than Cooley. At least Chris can call it how it is (he ragged on Kirk today).

This situation has been handled poorly since draft day. It's ugly, it's murky and complicated. People think of "how you like me know?!?!" and then we get timid Kirk with ED when it matters most. The guy and his situation is an enigma wrapped in a conundrum.

I will say this, he can dress his ass off.

Chris Luva Luva wrote:

DEHog wrote:You people kill me, with the just draft a QB imagine if we drafted this guy etc....Why haven't we done it for the past 25 years?? Nobody knew Dak was going to be that good, he'd never seen the field if Romo doesn't get hurt...remember everyone saying the Boys would be .500 without Romo. Cousins beat the Packers and Giants, they are playoff team. I believe we are a few defensive player away from being a really good team. Please don't think I'm comparing him to those guys, I'm just pointing out that Manning wouldn't have two SB rings if it wasn't for his defense...he'd be the fist to tell you that.

Cousins is a helluva QB. And I think maybe he needs more around him than we suspect. A lot of fans listen to Kevin Sheehan and Chris Cooley call Kirk elite on their radio show. I listen to it religiously and they have crowned him as such, with Kevin being more dreamy about Kirk than Cooley. At least Chris can call it how it is (he ragged on Kirk today).

This situation has been handled poorly since draft day. It's ugly, it's murky and complicated. People think of "how you like me know?!?!" and then we get timid Kirk with ED when it matters most. The guy and his situation is an enigma wrapped in a conundrum.
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I will say this, he can dress his ass off.

Yea I listen to them at work, not to defend Kevin bu his argument is " what's the alternative" he just feels like if you like Kirk walk you are setting the franchise back yet again.

DEHog wrote: Yea I listen to them at work, not to defend Kevin bu his argument is " what's the alternative" he just feels like if you like Kirk walk you are setting the franchise back yet again.

And that's a legit question. And I understand that it's market driven. But you can't be so dismissive of those who aren't willing to be so gung-ho about Kirk. He's very dismissive to callers. Hell, he tried to dismiss Cooley's point today about Kirks inability to get it done on the big-stage and got shut down.

At least Chris can own it. I can respect that.