The-Hogs.net - Washington Football Discussion, Redskins to Commanders Era

Deadskins wrote:I think it's safe to assume that no one wants to inherit the option year we picked up. I see that as the main reason there is no interest in RGIII. If he were a FA, someone would give him a shot, even if only as a backup.

I agree.

What I don't understand is why we even picked up the option.

StorminMormon86 wrote:

Deadskins wrote:I think it's safe to assume that no one wants to inherit the option year we picked up. I see that as the main reason there is no interest in RGIII. If he were a FA, someone would give him a shot, even if only as a backup.

I agree. What I don't understand is why we even picked up the option.

Dan Snyder ...

Scot probably said "let's let Jay Gruden have his way on this - Cousins is not going to suddenly become great and we'll still have Griffin ... "

StorminMormon86 wrote:Schefter was on 980 with Sheehan and Loverro, and he said that Cousins is getting the full season as the starter. He even said they would have stuck with him even if they lost to the Bucs.

They should. We need to know who Cousins is.

So this was an interesting article about the game on Sunday in CNNSI. Its a good, and critical read. I thought these summary statements interesting:

After the game, Cousins was excitable. Indeed, the 27-year-old QB played well. He was aided significantly by tremendous game-planning and play-calling, but more important than play-calling is play execution. Hats off to Cousins for coming through.

The narrative, however, could have been very different. Prior to hitting Reed on the game-winner, Cousins fired a dart into a crowded end zone, the ball deflecting out of bounds off safety Chris Conte’s hands. (It wasn’t an easy ball to catch, but Conte will feel even sicker about it when he watches the game film on Monday.) Imagine if Conte had hauled it in. Headlines out of D.C. would have been entirely about Cousins making yet another crucial mistake, this time costing his team the game.

More subtle was what happened early in the second half, just before Ryan Grant’s three-yard touchdown. Cousins again failed to hear his mental alarm clock in the pocket, holding the ball too long and nearly taking a sack that involved him dropping the ball upon getting hit. The play was erased by holding and roughing the passer calls, but imagine if it had gone the other way. It would have been the second time that Cousins’ poor pocket awareness had cost Washington possession and put them on the wrong side of a scoreboard swing.

And the final paragraph:

Alas, Cousins did not pay for those mistakes, and in the second half he had far more positives than negatives. And so the narrative favors him. But without question, the close calls will not be lost on Gruden. He must continue to use shrewd game-planning and play-calling to help—and, for the most part, hide—his quarterback.

Emphasis added.

StorminMormon86 wrote:

Deadskins wrote:I think it's safe to assume that no one wants to inherit the option year we picked up. I see that as the main reason there is no interest in RGIII. If he were a FA, someone would give him a shot, even if only as a backup.

I agree.

What I don't understand is why we even picked up the option.

At the time, we were still thinking that we were going into the season with RGIII as #1, so it made sense to hedge their bets against him living up to expectations. That didn't happen, so now it's turned into an anchor that's keeping RGIII from sailing off to bluer waters.

Some good stuff in this article today:

Verdict split on direction of Redskins QB Kirk Cousins
http://espn.go.com/blog/nflnation/post/ ... rk-cousins

One NFL executive said they need to give him two solid years running Jay Gruden’s offense as the starter (12 of his starts have come under Gruden). "Andy Dalton was up and down for four years and is playing at a higher level now," the executive texted.

Another NFL assistant coach said, "Kirk has already shown he can do it. He just hasn’t shown he is consistent enough to do it without help."

That kind of lines up with what PulpExposure pointed out about the need to "hide" Cousins IMO.

Good comments from Brunell too:

Former Redskins quarterback and current ESPN analyst Mark Brunell was a fifth-round pick who did not become a full-time starter until his third season. He advocates for more time.

"It wasn’t until halfway through my fourth year, that I started feeling comfortable,” Brunell said. "I’m talking about recognizing defenses, making the correct check at the line. I went into games thinking 'I got this, I know what it means to play well, I know what’s expected of me and I know what the job is.' In my third year starting I felt I had it."

This second half he had against the Bucs might be just what this kid needed - I think that the fear of making a mistake must be a very difficult thing to overcome - this might be the 'lift' that Kirk needed - we shall see

The narrative hasn't changed at all. Gruden has consistently said that this team is built to be a run heavy team, where the QB needs to control and take care of the ball and get it out to the playmakers. Nobody is anointing Cousins the next Rodgers, but for a guy who "couldn't win games if he throws it 35+ times", he certainly made that interesting.

And C00ley broke down the play prior to the game winning Reed touchdown. He said the safety didn't have a play on it, and wouldn't have caught it anyway. It wasn't a near pick. He did say that Cousins should have thrown the ball a little higher though.

riggofan wrote:Some good stuff in this article today:

Verdict split on direction of Redskins QB Kirk Cousins
http://espn.go.com/blog/nflnation/post/ ... rk-cousins

One NFL executive said they need to give him two solid years running Jay Gruden’s offense as the starter (12 of his starts have come under Gruden). "Andy Dalton was up and down for four years and is playing at a higher level now," the executive texted.

Another NFL assistant coach said, "Kirk has already shown he can do it. He just hasn’t shown he is consistent enough to do it without help."

That kind of lines up with what PulpExposure pointed out about the need to "hide" Cousins IMO.

Good comments from Brunell too:

Former Redskins quarterback and current ESPN analyst Mark Brunell was a fifth-round pick who did not become a full-time starter until his third season. He advocates for more time.

"It wasn’t until halfway through my fourth year, that I started feeling comfortable,” Brunell said. "I’m talking about recognizing defenses, making the correct check at the line. I went into games thinking 'I got this, I know what it means to play well, I know what’s expected of me and I know what the job is.' In my third year starting I felt I had it."

Funny how no one is willing to give RGIII that same time to learn, though. I've been thinking about how the NFL today doesn't give time for players to develop, especially at the QB position. Lots of good QBs sat for a year or even three before seeing the field as starter. Rodgers, Brady, and Favre all sat behind starters at the beginning of their careers. But in this give it to me now society, we can't give a talent like RGIII a chance to learn the game after a ROY performance? Andrew Luck is having a rough season, but do you think there's a chance the Colts are going to give up on him? And he hasn't been injured nearly as much. It really is a shame, because I think it ultimately hurts the product on the field when young players are thrown to the wolves before they are ready.

Deadskins wrote:Funny how no one is willing to give RGIII that same time to learn, though.

Do you wish to see him murdered on live television?

Deadskins wrote:Funny how no one is willing to give RGIII that same time to learn, though. I've been thinking about how the NFL today doesn't give time for players to develop, especially at the QB position. Lots of good QBs sat for a year or even three before seeing the field as starter. Rodgers, Brady, and Favre all sat behind starters at the beginning of their careers. But in this give it to me now society, we can't give a talent like RGIII a chance to learn the game after a ROY performance? Andrew Luck is having a rough season, but do you think there's a chance the Colts are going to give up on him? And he hasn't been injured nearly as much. It really is a shame, because I think it ultimately hurts the product on the field when young players are thrown to the wolves before they are ready.

Come on, man. This argument is complete crap and you know it. RGIII lacks the basic quarterback skills of every other player you named. A player can't develop into a franchise quarterback at the NFL level if he can't make all the throws, pass from the pocket, read progressions, read defenses, take a hit, and protect himself. Rodgers, Brady, and Favre all had those skills before they got to the league. You can't just pick any guy off the street with a semblance of athleticism and develop him into a franchise quarterback. That's exactly what the Redskins did. They picked a guy with athleticism at one hell of an expensive price tag and thought they could do what no team in the history of the league has done, coach one up into a bona fide NFL franchise quarterback. They couldn't. It can't be done which is why teams with competent management draft a quarterback when they need one, not an athlete.

Burgundy&GoldForever wrote:A player can't develop into a franchise quarterback at the NFL level if he can't make all the throws, pass from the pocket, read progressions, read defenses, take a hit, and protect himself. Rodgers, Brady, and Favre all had those skills before they got to the league.

RGIII can most definitely make all the throws (better than Kirk, too). The only skills you listed that he can't do are the two reads, but that is precisely why he needs time to develop them. And no, those other QBs didn't have a pro ability to do those things entering the league. But I really wasn't trying to turn this into a "let's start RGIII" conversation. I was using him as an example of how the culture has changed and how it is ultimately diminishing the product on the field.

I agree with JSPB - I will add that Griffin 'hurt' his chances at getting the proper coaching and preparation for playing in the NFL by having the season he had in 2012 - Cousins, in hindsight, not only benefitted from having some time to get ready, he was also a part of a very different college program that better suited the transition

Also, to your point ... it's difficult to imagine in today's NFL, drafting a QB in the top 5 and then giving him the time needed to properly prepare him for the NFL game - a QB like Griffin obviously needs a lot more time than a QB that has come from running a 'pro style offense' in college

I also am not advocating that Griffin is ready to play QB in the NFL but I'm not ready to state, as some here have, that Griffin cannot be helped or coached to be an effective QB in the NFL - IMO that's partly why he has not been discarded

Deadskins wrote:RGIII can most definitely make all the throws (better than Kirk, too). The only skills you listed that he can't do are the two reads, but that is precisely why he needs time to develop them. And no, those other QBs didn't have a pro ability to do those things entering the league. But I really wasn't trying to turn this into a "let's start RGIII" conversation. I was using him as an example of how the culture has changed and how it is ultimately diminishing the product on the field.

I didn't say they had a pro ability to do those things. I said they had an ability to do all those things. RGIII never did some of those things. We can debate whether it's because he was never asked to or because he couldn't but an NFL team with a competent GM doesn't draft a franchise quarterback, especially at the cost of three 1st round picks and a 2nd round pick, without full and complete knowledge he possesses all of the skills necessary to be a franchise quarterback for the next 15 years. There are reasons Mike Shanahan didn't want RGIII. There are reasons he drafted Kirk Cousins.

What Scot McCloughan and Jay Gruden appear to be bringing to this franchise is some semblance of consistency in the head coach and the starting quarterback. The Jay haters and the Kirk haters will just have to let the situation play itself out. Constant turnover is no formula for success. We only have to win one more game to equal last season's futility so I think the improvement question has been asked and answered, even with the plethora of injuries, the change in starting quarterbacks, and a fanbase who knows better than the head coach and GM which quarterback should be starting. I'm sure Danny is standing with his finger on the red button because overreaction is his forte. Now that he doesn't have a Yes-Man making player personnel decisions he may just have to be like the rest of us and GM from his fine Corinthian leather armchair.

Deadskins wrote:Funny how no one is willing to give RGIII that same time to learn, though.

Its the injury issue, man. I personally had no problem with letting Griffin go through the same process that they're trying with Cousins. Give him 16 games. Hell, give him 32 games and quit obsessing over the win/loss column. If at the end of two years you've groomed a capable QB it is well worth it.

There has to be some minimum level of performance though to go through that process. And like StorminMormon wrote, that kid is going to get killed out there.

I was horrified watching him get hammered by Detroit in that preseason game. Could care less about the score. There's no way he is going to last a season playing like that.

SkinsJock wrote:I agree with JSPB - I will add that Griffin 'hurt' his chances at getting the proper coaching and preparation for playing in the NFL by having the season he had in 2012 - Cousins, in hindsight, not only benefitted from having some time to get ready, he was also a part of a very different college program that better suited the transition

SJ I totally agree with this. We started him in 2012 in that crazy offense and he was successful in it. I think in hindsight it was probably the worst thing that could have happened to him.

riggofan wrote: We started him in 2012 in that crazy offense and he was successful in it. I think in hindsight it was probably the worst thing that could have happened to him.

Interesting in that 2012 is what the RG supporters always point to for their argument that he should be starting.

DEHog wrote:

riggofan wrote: We started him in 2012 in that crazy offense and he was successful in it. I think in hindsight it was probably the worst thing that could have happened to him.

Interesting in that 2102 is what the RG supporters always point to for their argument that he should be starting.

By that logic I'm going to point to 1987 and say that we need to get Doug Williams out of the front office and into the games.

DEHog wrote:

riggofan wrote: We started him in 2012 in that crazy offense and he was successful in it. I think in hindsight it was probably the worst thing that could have happened to him.

Interesting in that 2102 is what the RG supporters always point to for their argument that he should be starting.

I don't know how long it's going to take or even if Griffin will ever be a good NFL QB but 2012 was an incredible performance ...

SkinsJock wrote:

DEHog wrote:

riggofan wrote: We started him in 2012 in that crazy offense and he was successful in it. I think in hindsight it was probably the worst thing that could have happened to him.

Interesting in that 2102 is what the RG supporters always point to for their argument that he should be starting.

I don't know how long it's going to take or even if Griffin will ever be a good NFL QB but 2012 was an incredible performance ...

Maybe it will be 2102

as I posted earlier, this season is all about 4 quarters of 4 games - right now, we look like being 3-5 at the halfway point

the next 4 games will be huge for everyone here and winning 5 more games this season would be a minor miracle

having Cousins play like he did in the second half of the Buccaneers game would help make that possible


this next game is going to be a good indication of what we have here as far as the HC and QB are concerned - we don't need to get a win but a solid performance would be great - we need 60 minutes of play from offense and defense like the last 30 minutes against the Buccaneers

we shall see ...

SkinsJock wrote:

DEHog wrote:

riggofan wrote: We started him in 2012 in that crazy offense and he was successful in it. I think in hindsight it was probably the worst thing that could have happened to him.

Interesting in that 2102 is what the RG supporters always point to for their argument that he should be starting.

I don't know how long it's going to take or even if Griffin will ever be a good NFL QB but 2012 was an incredible performance ...

No question about that. It was unreal. People can say what they want but he carried our team that year. His QBR of 75.6 for the 2012 season (the average hovers in the mid 50s) is the 13th highest in the stats history (since 2006). Only 6 other players have recorded a season QBR higher. What a season.

Since then RGIII's QBR has averaged 40.4. Last season RGIII had a QBR of 42.2. To put it in perspective, in 2006, Mark Brunell had a QBR of 42.5 and was benched in week 10. In the prior year, Brunell took a 5-6 team, won 5 straight to make the wild card, beat TB and then lost to SEA.

Griffin again? Really?

Why is it so hard for some guys to figure out that the key thing for a quarterback to have is spatial processing speed between his ears? Even after 3 1/2 years of coaching, starter reps and two coaching regimes trying to help him make progress Griffin just could not demonstrate any real aptitude for making the reads and going through his progressions on time.

People have different gifts in terms of intelligence. Some have musical intelligence, some math, some verbal and just because Griffin is bright, Griffin graduated from Baylor in 3 years so he is bright, doesn't mean that he is spatially gifted. It takes spatial intelligence to look at the patterns on the field and very rapidly map the big play book to the field where receivers change their routes depending on what they read. Cousins is able to do this quickly so he has A CHANCE to excel in the NFL. Sadly Robert Griffin doesn't seem to have this ability. We know this because he hasn't shown ANY progress despite all the patience and investment.

In a simple college offense Griffin was able to use his considerable athletic talents to excel and did so briefly in the NFL but the inevitable occurred, the running QB got hurt. After that injury he doesn't seem to have the amazing lateral quickness that enabled him to be effective playing backyard ball in 2012. Sorry fellas but RGIII is a memory and only the miscast Robert Griffin remains.

I agree with the NFL staffers that say Cousins should be given a couple of years to bloom. We have seen progress this year and it seems likely more progress will be made with experience. He has the mind, arm and healthy to body to become very good despite the naysayers. Will it happen in Washington or another franchise? That is the question I want to know.

"It was never sustainable unless he could beat you with his mind on third down. Even as a rookie ... he was taking hellacious shots. His body was never going to hold up. It was a ticking time bomb; unless he was able to at some point stand in there and protect himself and starting beating you with his mind and body, he was going to get broken up. It was never a sustainable model – it was like lightning in a bottle. Some guys never get it. People confuse athletic ability with mental ability. They see a guy that ran fast and was rookie of the year. So what? The game at the highest level is played with beautiful mind mentality, especially that position. It doesn’t mean anything that you won the Heisman Trophy. People need to let go what he looked like as a rookie. That was never going to carry him to the levels he needed to ascend to given what they gave up for him.”

Via John Keim when talking to Louis Riddick.

StorminMormon86 wrote:"It was never sustainable unless he could beat you with his mind on third down. Even as a rookie ... he was taking hellacious shots. His body was never going to hold up. It was a ticking time bomb; unless he was able to at some point stand in there and protect himself and starting beating you with his mind and body, he was going to get broken up. It was never a sustainable model – it was like lightning in a bottle. Some guys never get it. People confuse athletic ability with mental ability. They see a guy that ran fast and was rookie of the year. So what? The game at the highest level is played with beautiful mind mentality, especially that position. It doesn’t mean anything that you won the Heisman Trophy. People need to let go what he looked like as a rookie. That was never going to carry him to the levels he needed to ascend to given what they gave up for him.”

Via John Keim when talking to Louis Riddick.

It's nice to see that someone else understands the facts of the matter. I've been saying the same thing for months.

Burgundy&GoldForever wrote:

StorminMormon86 wrote:"It was never sustainable unless he could beat you with his mind on third down. Even as a rookie ... he was taking hellacious shots. His body was never going to hold up. It was a ticking time bomb; unless he was able to at some point stand in there and protect himself and starting beating you with his mind and body, he was going to get broken up. It was never a sustainable model – it was like lightning in a bottle. Some guys never get it. People confuse athletic ability with mental ability. They see a guy that ran fast and was rookie of the year. So what? The game at the highest level is played with beautiful mind mentality, especially that position. It doesn’t mean anything that you won the Heisman Trophy. People need to let go what he looked like as a rookie. That was never going to carry him to the levels he needed to ascend to given what they gave up for him.”

Via John Keim when talking to Louis Riddick.

It's nice to see that someone else understands the facts of the matter. I've been saying the same thing for months.

Made me throw up in my mouth a little when I realized it was Louis Riddick, though.