The-Hogs.net - Washington Football Discussion, Redskins to Commanders Era

skinsfan#33 wrote:Pulp,
You know at this point (next off season) we really do need to bring in the wrecking ball and totally dismantle this team. I bet you can't run out of fingers before you name players that we can't do with out or are worth building around.

Only problem with that is we need to prepare our selves for several really bad years and this fan base wouldn't stand for it! It really does need to be done!

That's crap. Too many teams have turned around in single years to even believe that crap. We have the guys who can do it for the most part. Plug the holes and get a good coach in here. Miami's done it, Ravens have done it, Jets are doing it, just to name a few.

Most teams or franchises that have such quick turn arounds are managed by NFL people that can see who is on the team that can step up to the next level and who to add that is not only going to help but also will make the other players better - while it looks to some (like most here) as if the team had a quick turn around from what it looked like last season is actually a team that is being managed for the future because the people in charge know what they are getting both from the draft and through free agency and make plans accordingly and well in advance


enjoy the ride - the best part of the season for this team is generally the off season because that is where we all get our hopes up as Danny and Vinny do their thing and then market it to all of us so we'll continue to "buy" into the chance for success

You know at this point in time it is obvious that Soup will never be what Gibbs thought he would be. I say what the hell- put in Woodson or Collins and see if we can score more than 13 ppg. The experiment w/JC has FAILED. TRY SOMETHING NEW!

I heard this said today. The offensive line's job is to present opportunities for the Qb. It's the QB's job to take advantage of them. Unfortunately JC's only opportunity was last week. The O line did a good job pass blocking but for whatever reason, we are not run blocking well at all. If we can't run the ball, we are not going to be able to pass the ball.

I'm a Skins fan 1st and a JC fan 2nd. I want whats best for this team but right now, I don't think it makes a lot of sense to bring in a young qB or an old qb who doesn't have an offensive line that will block for him. I also don't see our WR's doing what they should. Now it looked like Moss finally said the hell with it and made some plays. Not sure if the dback's in Detroit are starter quality but he made some plays. Same with ARE in week 1 or 2. Can't remember. Seems like eternity. If we can find a way to get something going with Kelly, I think this offense will take off. He has admitted that he needs to work on selling his route. It's been pretty obvious in film replay b/c he always has a defender very close by. I also think that JC needs to do a better job of getting him the ball in the spot where he can make a play - all be it long, short or intermediate routes.

As I've said before. We need better execution from everyone on the offensive side of the ball but it doesn't start with the QB. It starts with the coach. He call's the plays and OUR QB if forced to run what he calls. We've seen in the 2 minute our team to be effective. I'd like to see more of that.

PulpExposure wrote:This is what I see. I think that Joe Gibbs came in and built the Redskins to play strong defense, have a crushing running game, and have a passing game that would move the chains. Once you got into the red zone, I think Gibbs intended to just pound the ball into the end zone. Jason Campbell was drafted, and nurtured under Joe Gibbs, to be a game managing QB. That is, a guy who would keep the chains moving and wouldn't make game-killing mistakes. While I think Campbell shows all the signs of being a great game manager (he just doesn't turn the ball over much), that's not what this team needs.

Unfortunately, the team never quite worked out that way under Campbell. After 2005, our running game was never quite that dominant in the red zone, and the front line got old, fast. Instead, we more had to rely on the passing game, and on Campbell to become more than just a a game manager, and into a play maker. Unfortunately, he's shown me no evidence that he's capable of doing that. Sure, his stats are up, but he's so cautious he won't take risks.

However, you put Campbell on the Panthers of last year, and you are maybe talking a Superbowl team, simply because he could lean on that defense and running game, and he would not have thrown 5 picks against the Eagles like Delhomme did, which almost singlehandedly lost the game for them.

But we're not that team. We're a team that can't run the ball, and our supposed strong suit (defense) totally collapsed in the last game. We need someone to make plays in the passing game, and in my opinion, right now, Campbell is the wrong guy for this job. Not saying Collins is the right guy, but I know Campbell isn't right. Wish that Colt wasn't injured anymore so we could see what a young guy could do.

Great creative idea for backing a biased position. Congrats. I also admire your ignoring the lack of competence of the OL.

VetSkinsFan wrote:

skinsfan#33 wrote:Pulp,
You know at this point (next off season) we really do need to bring in the wrecking ball and totally dismantle this team. I bet you can't run out of fingers before you name players that we can't do with out or are worth building around.

Only problem with that is we need to prepare our selves for several really bad years and this fan base wouldn't stand for it! It really does need to be done!

That's crap. Too many teams have turned around in single years to even believe that crap. We have the guys who can do it for the most part. Plug the holes and get a good coach in here. Miami's done it, Ravens have done it, Jets are doing it, just to name a few.

Totally agree. Just a competitive OL would have won the Lion's game for us, and may even have helped us beat the giants. We need at least three new starting OL, however possible. They don't even have to be superstars, just three guys who can be competitive in the NFL on a starting basis. The turn around can be accomplished in one year. Shopping Betts for an veteran just soon as position is one option--I would also shop Devon Thomas.

crazyhorse1 wrote:

VetSkinsFan wrote:

skinsfan#33 wrote:Pulp,
You know at this point (next off season) we really do need to bring in the wrecking ball and totally dismantle this team. I bet you can't run out of fingers before you name players that we can't do with out or are worth building around.

Only problem with that is we need to prepare our selves for several really bad years and this fan base wouldn't stand for it! It really does need to be done!

That's crap. Too many teams have turned around in single years to even believe that crap. We have the guys who can do it for the most part. Plug the holes and get a good coach in here. Miami's done it, Ravens have done it, Jets are doing it, just to name a few.

Totally agree. Just a competitive OL would have won the Lion's game for us, and may even have helped us beat the giants. We need at least three new starting OL, however possible. They don't even have to be superstars, just three guys who can be competitive in the NFL on a starting basis. The turn around can be accomplished in one year. Shopping Betts for an veteran just soon as position is one option--I would also shop Devon Thomas.

Ya new o line and draft high a running back......Portis seems tired to me...to much time in the Ferrari and not enough time working out.

If we have better O line and a better running attack soups going to be able to put up even better numbers next year.

First, the o-line has provided plenty of protection for Campbell this year, and we didn't even try to run last week ... unless you consider 14 rushing plays when everyone in the world know you are going to run, and in the same spot you always run to, actually trying. Don't worry boys, once they get to the 20 we'll stop em .. just stack the box and over shift left ... they never run to the right.

It's more a statement to the lack of confidence in the QB that the the coach refuses to call pass plays in the red zone if you ask me. That's probably because he's been paying attention over the last 19 games.

Big Ben seems to have done fine last year without a good o-line and an over powering running game. They were ranked 23rd in rushing, and 28th in sacks.

The Redskins, by comparison were 8th in rushing, and 11 less sacks.

Same ole same ole ... it's the o-line ... it's the receivers ... now it's the running game ... what next?

RayNAustin wrote:First, the o-line has provided plenty of protection for Campbell this year, and we didn't even try to run last week ... unless you consider 14 rushing plays when everyone in the world know you are going to run, and in the same spot you always run to, actually trying. Don't worry boys, once they get to the 20 we'll stop em .. just stack the box and over shift left ... they never run to the right.

It's more a statement to the lack of confidence in the QB that the the coach refuses to call pass plays in the red zone if you ask me. That's probably because he's been paying attention over the last 19 games.

Big Ben seems to have done fine last year without a good o-line and an over powering running game. They were ranked 23rd in rushing, and 28th in sacks.

The Redskins, by comparison were 8th in rushing, and 11 less sacks.

Same ole same ole ... it's the o-line ... it's the receivers ... now it's the running game ... what next?

It's the whole team. JC has a lot of things he can do better but everyone seems to keep saying that he's not a viable starting QB in the league and that's just crazy. This team overall has not played well together. Talent wise, I think we've got it but we've got to put it together. I wouldn't even think about drafting a RB in the early rounds. 4th or later. I would say that most of the RB's in the NFL are mid round picks. Our focus must be on the offensive line. Plain and Simple.

frankcal20 wrote:I heard this said today. The offensive line's job is to present opportunities for the Qb. It's the QB's job to take advantage of them. Unfortunately JC's only opportunity was last week. The O line did a good job pass blocking but for whatever reason, we are not run blocking well at all. If we can't run the ball, we are not going to be able to pass the ball.

You can't really believe that! JC has had better than adequate pass protection all year. Just because JC hit Moss for a TD last week doesn't mean there were plenty of other TDs out there that he didn't throw.

If you listen to Doc Walker, D Thomas is often running wide open down field and he was on the last drive of the Detroit game. JC just had to look his way and make a decent throw. I know those are two things he isn't used to (looking for other WRs and throwing a good deep ball) but who knows if he would start. maybe the running lanes would open up.

I'm sick and tired of this junk that blames JZ, the WRs or the OL for JC not going down field.

Look at the play of the game, the PI, that set up the game winning TD. Stafford read that play almost immidiately and the ball was out of his hand in under two seconds. When is the last ime JC read a play like that and made the throw. How about the pefect pass over Orakpo (who had very good coverage on the TE) you think JC throws that and if he does is it that well thrown.

Look JC is a nice enough guy and an OK guy if you have a steller D and great running game/ He won't throw any TDs but he won't hurt you.

Of the 10 Redskins QBs that have thrown 1000 or more passes he has the worst TD%, below Jay Scheodor (sp) and Gus Frerotte. Of the 20 Skins QBs that have thrown more than 300 attemps his TD% futility is only surpassed by Tony Banks - yes even Shuler and Jeff Rutlege were better!

His career high in college was only 20 TDs and that was on a team that didn't lose a game. He simply is allergic to throwing TDs.

frankcal20 wrote:

RayNAustin wrote:First, the o-line has provided plenty of protection for Campbell this year, and we didn't even try to run last week ... unless you consider 14 rushing plays when everyone in the world know you are going to run, and in the same spot you always run to, actually trying. Don't worry boys, once they get to the 20 we'll stop em .. just stack the box and over shift left ... they never run to the right.

It's more a statement to the lack of confidence in the QB that the the coach refuses to call pass plays in the red zone if you ask me. That's probably because he's been paying attention over the last 19 games.

Big Ben seems to have done fine last year without a good o-line and an over powering running game. They were ranked 23rd in rushing, and 28th in sacks.

The Redskins, by comparison were 8th in rushing, and 11 less sacks.

Same ole same ole ... it's the o-line ... it's the receivers ... now it's the running game ... what next?

It's the whole team. JC has a lot of things he can do better but everyone seems to keep saying that he's not a viable starting QB in the league and that's just crazy. This team overall has not played well together. Talent wise, I think we've got it but we've got to put it together. I wouldn't even think about drafting a RB in the early rounds. 4th or later. I would say that most of the RB's in the NFL are mid round picks. Our focus must be on the offensive line. Plain and Simple.

O K frank......no rbs first round.......would be nice to get some fresh legs though......id take some oline.....we can get FAs......Campbell now tied for 6th all time redskins in passing tds......and the 340 yards he laid on detroit last week was is second highest number ever.....oh yeah but dude sucks and is not a starting quality player and has'nt gotten any better

crazyhorse1 wrote:

VetSkinsFan wrote:

skinsfan#33 wrote:Pulp,
You know at this point (next off season) we really do need to bring in the wrecking ball and totally dismantle this team. I bet you can't run out of fingers before you name players that we can't do with out or are worth building around.

Only problem with that is we need to prepare our selves for several really bad years and this fan base wouldn't stand for it! It really does need to be done!

That's crap. Too many teams have turned around in single years to even believe that crap. We have the guys who can do it for the most part. Plug the holes and get a good coach in here. Miami's done it, Ravens have done it, Jets are doing it, just to name a few.

Totally agree. Just a competitive OL would have won the Lion's game for us, and may even have helped us beat the giants. We need at least three new starting OL, however possible. They don't even have to be superstars, just three guys who can be competitive in the NFL on a starting basis. The turn around can be accomplished in one year. Shopping Betts for an veteran just soon as position is one option--I would also shop Devon Thomas.

Hey Crazy,
Our OL, while it isn't good or great it is most definitely competent. There are plenty worse. We lost the Lions game mostly because the D couldn't stop a Lions team with a rookie QB with a 40 rating and a running game that was averaging 2.3 yards a carry. Our D made that crappy RB, Kevin Smith look like Walter Payton. Combine that with a QB that left plenty of TDs vanish because he refuses to look at anyone other than Moss or ey.

Everyone needs to get off the OL's back, they are not the main reason we are losing. They are just not good enough for this QB, because he has to have everything perfect to succeed. Our yards per carry average is better or tied with 16 teams including Indy, Chrgrs, Bears, Falcons, Jets, Patriots, and Giants. And were right in the middle of the pack for sacks allowed.

It would be great if the OL was better, but it is playing well enough to win. I would blame the Detroit loss on ever other position before I blamed the OL.

We have only played 3 games and for months we have all been saying we most likely are going to have a lot of issues with various parts of the offense - the QB, the play calling, the receivers, the pass blocking, the run blocking, the age of our linemen, and on and on - hey guys it's only 3 games - we are not very good but we were never very good and we need to give all of these things a chance - we play an easy few games - let's just see how things go before the last 7 games which we will probably lose but what the heck - we gave it our best shot and Danny and Vinny will have a new team here next year for us all to get excited about again

Californiaskin wrote:
O K frank......no rbs first round.......would be nice to get some fresh legs though......id take some oline.....we can get FAs......Campbell now tied for 6th all time redskins in passing tds......and the 340 yards he laid on detroit last week was is second highest number ever.....oh yeah but dude sucks and is not a starting quality player and has'nt gotten any better

Caly, and when did he throw for the most yards in his career against? It was 2 YEARS AGO. So much for progression....yeah, he has improved sooooo much.

Regardless, of course JC threw for 340; he threw for 328 the year prior against Detriot --- that is why I told you last week he would have a decent passing game. Then again he had 41 attempts. He plays well against bad defenses. Against good or even average defenses, he's crap.

More and more on stats. What was your rationale for the fact that over his 3 years as a starter, he has averaged LESS THEN a TD per game? All I hear about is passing yards, a lot of which come in garbage time. But you always seem to overlook that. Then again, you seem to overlook scoring as well ---- forgetting that scoring is what wins games, not passing yards. And most importantly, you overlook WINNING. But maybe you also don't care about that.....

Then you say to get OL in FA. HAVE WELEARNED NOTHING OVER THE PAST DECADE??????

VetSkinsFan wrote:

skinsfan#33 wrote:Pulp,
You know at this point (next off season) we really do need to bring in the wrecking ball and totally dismantle this team. I bet you can't run out of fingers before you name players that we can't do with out or are worth building around.

Only problem with that is we need to prepare our selves for several really bad years and this fan base wouldn't stand for it! It really does need to be done!

That's crap. Too many teams have turned around in single years to even believe that crap. We have the guys who can do it for the most part. Plug the holes and get a good coach in here. Miami's done it, Ravens have done it, Jets are doing it, just to name a few.

Vet,
This may be your point, but for all the teams you mentioned, their major change was at the QB position.

Californiaskin wrote:

frankcal20 wrote:

RayNAustin wrote:First, the o-line has provided plenty of protection for Campbell this year, and we didn't even try to run last week ... unless you consider 14 rushing plays when everyone in the world know you are going to run, and in the same spot you always run to, actually trying. Don't worry boys, once they get to the 20 we'll stop em .. just stack the box and over shift left ... they never run to the right.

It's more a statement to the lack of confidence in the QB that the the coach refuses to call pass plays in the red zone if you ask me. That's probably because he's been paying attention over the last 19 games.

Big Ben seems to have done fine last year without a good o-line and an over powering running game. They were ranked 23rd in rushing, and 28th in sacks.

The Redskins, by comparison were 8th in rushing, and 11 less sacks.

Same ole same ole ... it's the o-line ... it's the receivers ... now it's the running game ... what next?

It's the whole team. JC has a lot of things he can do better but everyone seems to keep saying that he's not a viable starting QB in the league and that's just crazy. This team overall has not played well together. Talent wise, I think we've got it but we've got to put it together. I wouldn't even think about drafting a RB in the early rounds. 4th or later. I would say that most of the RB's in the NFL are mid round picks. Our focus must be on the offensive line. Plain and Simple.

O K frank......no rbs first round.......would be nice to get some fresh legs though......id take some oline.....we can get FAs......Campbell now tied for 6th all time redskins in passing tds......and the 340 yards he laid on detroit last week was is second highest number ever.....oh yeah but dude sucks and is not a starting quality player and has'nt gotten any better

Gus and Heath both have better TD% than JC, so don't use stats to win us over to JC!

frankcal20 wrote:Works for Peyton, why can't it work for us. So what if it takes away the play action.

Are you trying to say that JC is even remotely close to being the QB that Peyton is? Come on, Frank.

frankcal20 wrote:(1)
I love the word CONSISTENCY because that is something that is 100% correct. He has not done anything consistent b/c the type of offense he runs is ever changing. So not only does JC not know what's going on in years past, neither did anyone else.

(2)
So that I understand your post, you said you could care less if he hits only 1 receiver if we could score more than 20 pts in a game. So now it's up to JC to get the ball to the receiver and then get him in the end zone.

(3)
You also mentioned that he won't throw a pass over 20 yards unless there isn't a defender within 30 yds. That also is incorrect. See the first play of both the first two games. Wasn't Kelly covered? Also, didn't he throw into triple coverage last week? So, those are plays I don't like - but I guess you do since you would prefer him to throw into double coverage or triple coverage more than 20 yds downfield.

Just sayin - that's not good football.

Because I don't know how to do that snazzy cut and answer, I numbered your paragraphs and will respond accordingly:

(1) I don't mean offensive consistency. What I mean is consistency in hitting receivers, scoring, even progression, reading defenses, speeding up in the pocket, making faster decisions, leadership qualities. He has not been consistently good at any of the qualities. He cannot help who is around him, but GOOD QBs MAKE THE PLAYERS AROUND THEM BETTER. He has not done that. He has not been consistently good at anything in his career. Favre has been in three totally different offenses and was successful in all three. Pennington as well. The presonnel and playcalling are excuses. Just what people have been giving this league veteran for 4 years of mediocrity. Regardless, he has had 2 years of Gibbs --- no improvement or consistency. He is now in his second season under Zorn --- no improvement or consistency.

(2) Absolutely correct. A QBs job is to lead a team downfield and score. This is obvious. Whose else job is it, the punters.....oh wait.

(3) So what you are saying is that he makes poor decisions on passes over 20 yards. That is correct. What he doesn't do is hit open receivers over 20 yards. It is obvious that JC is not accurate on deep routes. Do you think otherwise? He doesn't have the ability to thread the needle. And please don't take that particular statement literally. 30 yards.....come on. I was doing this to make a point. But, please click on the link below to see more about what I am saying. He misses receivers deep on a consistent basis ----- OH WAIT, something he does consistently. Mind, you this is only missed receivers in ONE QUARTER.

http://www.extremeskins.com/showthread.php?t=301745

markshark84 wrote:

VetSkinsFan wrote:

skinsfan#33 wrote:Pulp,
You know at this point (next off season) we really do need to bring in the wrecking ball and totally dismantle this team. I bet you can't run out of fingers before you name players that we can't do with out or are worth building around.

Only problem with that is we need to prepare our selves for several really bad years and this fan base wouldn't stand for it! It really does need to be done!

That's crap. Too many teams have turned around in single years to even believe that crap. We have the guys who can do it for the most part. Plug the holes and get a good coach in here. Miami's done it, Ravens have done it, Jets are doing it, just to name a few.

Vet,
This may be your point, but for all the teams you mentioned, their major change was at the QB position.

Miami - Sparano and Bill Parcells started in 2008 ...and I hardly think Chad Pennington is the reason Miami turned around in 2008.
NY Jets - Rex Ryan 2008, Henry Ellard WR coach, D coordinator (Yes, I know it's Rex's scheme).
Ravens- Harbaugh, Cam Cam 2008, Mattison 2009 (lost Rex Ryan).

Yes, they added QBs as well, but I would hardly say that these teams turned around on the QB alone. I will concede that the QB play does influence the success.

I think the JC argument is going to be an "agree to disagree" type.

If JC does not have success this weekend, I will eat crow. But keep this in mind, you also have to look at the game objectively. I will have a notepad ready for each play and when he makes a play or a mistake - it will be noted. If he fails to do so and it's clearly his fault we were not successful, then I will not have a problem with the coach making a change. TB is 2nd in ppg allowed at 30.3, 2nd in yds per game at 432.3, 2nd in rush yds per game - 187.3 and 12th in pass yds per game - 245. They only have 3 sacks so far this season.

frankcal20 wrote:

RayNAustin wrote:First, the o-line has provided plenty of protection for Campbell this year, and we didn't even try to run last week ... unless you consider 14 rushing plays when everyone in the world know you are going to run, and in the same spot you always run to, actually trying. Don't worry boys, once they get to the 20 we'll stop em .. just stack the box and over shift left ... they never run to the right.

It's more a statement to the lack of confidence in the QB that the the coach refuses to call pass plays in the red zone if you ask me. That's probably because he's been paying attention over the last 19 games.

Big Ben seems to have done fine last year without a good o-line and an over powering running game. They were ranked 23rd in rushing, and 28th in sacks.

The Redskins, by comparison were 8th in rushing, and 11 less sacks.

Same ole same ole ... it's the o-line ... it's the receivers ... now it's the running game ... what next?

It's the whole team. JC has a lot of things he can do better but everyone seems to keep saying that he's not a viable starting QB in the league and that's just crazy. This team overall has not played well together. Talent wise, I think we've got it but we've got to put it together. I wouldn't even think about drafting a RB in the early rounds. 4th or later. I would say that most of the RB's in the NFL are mid round picks. Our focus must be on the offensive line. Plain and Simple.

While you're probably right, if Soup's gone, which he will be probably unless we make the playoffs, they are gonna go QB first round. Then leave whoever it is they draft to either get killed or have a crappy running game, or probably both. If the qb is good as a rookie, he might be able to put some points up, but the root problems will still be there because we don't build through the draft and end up in cap hell. Everyone is trying to pinpoint one thing on offense that's a problem, but trust me, it is EVERYTHING. The O-line has to take some blame because Denver has a horrible QB, yet their O-line just mauls people and keeps the ball on offense. And I mean come on, they got beat in the trenches by Detroit. The receivers have to take some blame because none of them have elite skills and can overcome average QB play i.e. an Andre Johnson, a Calvin Johnson, a Dwayne Bowe, just to name a few. JC has to take some blame because he is not Drew Brees or Tom Brady, you can't just put a bunch of random dudes out there at WR and have him be successful. And Portis doesn't look to be the elite player he has been that kept the offense going even when they look pathetic everywhere else. Most importantly as of late, there is Zorn, who has no creativity in the red zone and tries to find ways to keep the opposing team's offense on the field and give them free points. He also likes his team to not get field goal points.

markshark84 wrote:

frankcal20 wrote:(1)
I love the word CONSISTENCY because that is something that is 100% correct. He has not done anything consistent b/c the type of offense he runs is ever changing. So not only does JC not know what's going on in years past, neither did anyone else.

(2)
So that I understand your post, you said you could care less if he hits only 1 receiver if we could score more than 20 pts in a game. So now it's up to JC to get the ball to the receiver and then get him in the end zone.

(3)
You also mentioned that he won't throw a pass over 20 yards unless there isn't a defender within 30 yds. That also is incorrect. See the first play of both the first two games. Wasn't Kelly covered? Also, didn't he throw into triple coverage last week? So, those are plays I don't like - but I guess you do since you would prefer him to throw into double coverage or triple coverage more than 20 yds downfield.

Just sayin - that's not good football.

Because I don't know how to do that snazzy cut and answer, I numbered your paragraphs and will respond accordingly:

(1) I don't mean offensive consistency. What I mean is consistency in hitting receivers, scoring, even progression, reading defenses, speeding up in the pocket, making faster decisions, leadership qualities. He has not been consistently good at any of the qualities. He cannot help who is around him, but GOOD QBs MAKE THE PLAYERS AROUND THEM BETTER. He has not done that. He has not been consistently good at anything in his career. Favre has been in three totally different offenses and was successful in all three. Pennington as well. The presonnel and playcalling are excuses. Just what people have been giving this league veteran for 4 years of mediocrity. Regardless, he has had 2 years of Gibbs --- no improvement or consistency. He is now in his second season under Zorn --- no improvement or consistency.

(2) Absolutely correct. A QBs job is to lead a team downfield and score. This is obvious. Whose else job is it, the punters.....oh wait.

(3) So what you are saying is that he makes poor decisions on passes over 20 yards. That is correct. What he doesn't do is hit open receivers over 20 yards. It is obvious that JC is not accurate on deep routes. Do you think otherwise? He doesn't have the ability to thread the needle. And please don't take that particular statement literally. 30 yards.....come on. I was doing this to make a point. But, please click on the link below to see more about what I am saying. He misses receivers deep on a consistent basis ----- OH WAIT, something he does consistently. Mind, you this is only missed receivers in ONE QUARTER.

http://www.extremeskins.com/showthread.php?t=301745

Absolutely, positively outstanding pictorial demonstration of what is ailing the Redskin offense. Campbell has extreme tunnel vision and this shows precisely how his poor decisions are derailing the offense.

I've watched this, and I've recognized how many times this happens in the course of a game. I've jumped up and down and have screamed, and yet the response is always the same ... it's the receivers ... it's the o-line ... it's the play calling ... it's everything ... anything ... except what it really is ... a lame excuse for a QB who's inconsistent play in college didn't warrant his draft position, and his play on the field has set this team back 3 years.

frankcal20 wrote:I think the JC argument is going to be an "agree to disagree" type.

If JC does not have success this weekend, I will eat crow. But keep this in mind, you also have to look at the game objectively. I will have a notepad ready for each play and when he makes a play or a mistake - it will be noted. If he fails to do so and it's clearly his fault we were not successful, then I will not have a problem with the coach making a change. TB is 2nd in ppg allowed at 30.3, 2nd in yds per game at 432.3, 2nd in rush yds per game - 187.3 and 12th in pass yds per game - 245. They only have 3 sacks so far this season.

No, I understand on the "agree to disagree" thing. But make no mistake, I do watch the games objectively. I was JC's biggest advocate early on last season. He appeared to be a different player back then --- but now I consider that a product of the running game and the fact that defensive coordinators didn't have a grasp on Zorn's playcalling.

Now, I must say, I won't have a pen and paper ready; I tend to look at games in their totality based on flow, management, etc. This is done mainly because we can't see which receivers are open or missed, what routes were run incorrectly, missed assignments, etc. I look at the how the game is run, try to decipher the gameplan and objectives, what defensive fronts the offense has in front of them, and analyize accordingly. This is one of the reasons that I don't care too much about the stats; because they typically don't come close to telling the entire story. An example is the pressure that JC sees. JC apologists firmly believe the OL is the deficiency (among the other excuses); others believe it to be JC. When their are 8 in the box consistently, is it likely that our OL can protect JC so he has all day to make a throw --- absolutely not. But it is not our OLs job to make the defense back off from the aggresive fronts; it is up to the QB to make quick reads and the coach to make playcalling adjustments. So if JC has another 340 yard throwing day, but only scores 14 points, I will not look at it as a successful day for JC. It is a team game and the QB must be the ULTIMATE team player.

But, if JC has a bad passing game, we fail to score over 25 points, he commits over 2 TOs, and/or we don't gain offensive momentum, then I believe it will be obvious that there are serious deficiencies in the offense and at the QB position which warrants change. However, if he has a great game and we light it up, do I think that JC is the answer --- no. He is facing (yet again, for the third week in a row) one of the worst defenses in the league. He will need to show me that he can light it up against fierce competition consistently -- and by consistently, I mean over a 8-10 game span. He has started 38 games over his career, a couple decent games will not cause me to change my opinion that quickly.

crazyhorse1 wrote:

PulpExposure wrote:This is what I see. I think that Joe Gibbs came in and built the Redskins to play strong defense, have a crushing running game, and have a passing game that would move the chains. Once you got into the red zone, I think Gibbs intended to just pound the ball into the end zone. Jason Campbell was drafted, and nurtured under Joe Gibbs, to be a game managing QB. That is, a guy who would keep the chains moving and wouldn't make game-killing mistakes. While I think Campbell shows all the signs of being a great game manager (he just doesn't turn the ball over much), that's not what this team needs.

Unfortunately, the team never quite worked out that way under Campbell. After 2005, our running game was never quite that dominant in the red zone, and the front line got old, fast. Instead, we more had to rely on the passing game, and on Campbell to become more than just a a game manager, and into a play maker. Unfortunately, he's shown me no evidence that he's capable of doing that. Sure, his stats are up, but he's so cautious he won't take risks.

However, you put Campbell on the Panthers of last year, and you are maybe talking a Superbowl team, simply because he could lean on that defense and running game, and he would not have thrown 5 picks against the Eagles like Delhomme did, which almost singlehandedly lost the game for them.

But we're not that team. We're a team that can't run the ball, and our supposed strong suit (defense) totally collapsed in the last game. We need someone to make plays in the passing game, and in my opinion, right now, Campbell is the wrong guy for this job. Not saying Collins is the right guy, but I know Campbell isn't right. Wish that Colt wasn't injured anymore so we could see what a young guy could do.

Great creative idea for backing a biased position. Congrats. I also admire your ignoring the lack of competence of the OL.

Lol. I love it. Markshark84 calls me a huge Campbell apologist, and crazyhorse1 thinks I'm a Campbell hater.

There's this thing called a middle position. Perhaps I'm there?

VetSkinsFan wrote:

markshark84 wrote:

VetSkinsFan wrote:

skinsfan#33 wrote:Pulp,
You know at this point (next off season) we really do need to bring in the wrecking ball and totally dismantle this team. I bet you can't run out of fingers before you name players that we can't do with out or are worth building around.

Only problem with that is we need to prepare our selves for several really bad years and this fan base wouldn't stand for it! It really does need to be done!

That's crap. Too many teams have turned around in single years to even believe that crap. We have the guys who can do it for the most part. Plug the holes and get a good coach in here. Miami's done it, Ravens have done it, Jets are doing it, just to name a few.

Vet,
This may be your point, but for all the teams you mentioned, their major change was at the QB position.

Miami - Sparano and Bill Parcells started in 2008 ...and I hardly think Chad Pennington is the reason Miami turned around in 2008.
NY Jets - Rex Ryan 2008, Henry Ellard WR coach, D coordinator (Yes, I know it's Rex's scheme).
Ravens- Harbaugh, Cam Cam 2008, Mattison 2009 (lost Rex Ryan).

Yes, they added QBs as well, but I would hardly say that these teams turned around on the QB alone. I will concede that the QB play does influence the success.

Totally understand this, but this doesn't mean I am wrong. Coaching can have a significant change, but IMHO the QB on the field sets the tone as the leader and ultimately does the most for the offense.

Rex Ryan and Harbargh were defensive guys. The major change in those teams was on the offensive side of the ball. And personally, I don't think after Cameron took the dolphins to 1-15 (which Spurano turned around) and then becomes this offensive juggernaut provides that significant of an arguement.

And while you may not believe that Pennington played a role in the turnaround, I couldn't disagree more. After all he was the NFL runner-up MVP last season. We'll see how they do with him out.