The-Hogs.net - Washington Football Discussion, Redskins to Commanders Era

SkinsJock wrote:

gibbs4president wrote:

SkinsJock wrote:And to SkinsFreak's point - I think that we will not have Collins here next year - Campbell and Brennan will be here because these are the better QBs on our roster

Curious, but why wouldn't Collins return next season?

no worries - because we will need 3 QBs and 2 of them will be Campbell and Brennan - there is a snowball's chance in hell that the 3rd will be Collins.

As long as we have a QB on the PS, we only need two actives.

crazyhorse1 wrote:

gibbs4president wrote:

SkinsJock wrote:And to SkinsFreak's point - I think that we will not have Collins here next year - Campbell and Brennan will be here because these are the better QBs on our roster



I will further predict that Campbell will not be starting for this team in the 2010 season.

Curious, but why wouldn't Collins return next season?

Collins will be back.

I think he might play next year too -just not with this team

crazyhorse1 wrote:

SkinsJock wrote:And to SkinsFreak's point - I think that we will not have Collins here next year - Campbell and Brennan will be here because these are the better QBs on our roster



I will further predict that Campbell will not be starting for this team in the 2010 season.

Never mind that Collins had the highest qb rating in the NFL last year and Campbell was a guy we had to make excuses for, or that Colt has no record at all-- it's obviously obvious that Colt and JC are much, much better than Collins. What are you going to believe-- the stats and your eyes, or your imagination?

I'll leave the imagining to others

In my opinion we are better off with Campbell because that is who Zorn thinks gives us the best chance to win.

I have absolutely no problem with anyone thinking that any other QB might be a better choice. I just happen to think we are better off with who Zorn thinks is the better QB.

It really does not bother me at all that some here want another QB just so long as we don't make a change at any position unless Zorn decides to do it.

Bring Joe back

gibbs4president wrote:

crazyhorse1 wrote:

SkinsJock wrote:And to SkinsFreak's point - I think that we will not have Collins here next year - Campbell and Brennan will be here because these are the better QBs on our roster



I will further predict that Campbell will not be starting for this team in the 2010 season.

Never mind that Collins had the highest qb rating in the NFL last year and Campbell was a guy we had to make excuses for, or that Colt has no record at all-- it's obviously obvious that Colt and JC are much, much better than Collins. What are you going to believe-- the stats and your eyes, or your imagination?

Even if you believe that Collins is a much better quarterback than Campbell, you have to admit that being in Al Saunders's offensive system had a lot to do with his success. Not only is he not in that system now, but he's had to learn a completely new offense just like Campbell.

Collins performed well last year because he knew where to throw the ball and when to throw the ball at all times. He knew the offense much better than any QB on the team; that isn't the case now.

Why exactly would Collins be the better choice right now?

I would be shocked to learn that Collins doesn't better understand the new system than Campbell. He's smarter than Campbell and responds to stimuli faster than Campbell, whose brain is sluggish. System be damned. It's not rocket science. Collins has an agile brain, as well as a quick release. He needs protection a second or so less than Campbell does, and Campbell needs a second more than our horrible line can provide. Do the math.

If Campbell had better protection, he might do fine. However, he doesn't, so nature runs its course. Unless a change is made, we'll struggle to finish 8-8.

PulpExposure wrote:

CanesSkins26 wrote:Time for the Skins to start thinking about drafting another. The Big 12 alone has 4-5 qbs with NFL potential that will likely be available in the draft this year. I know that we have Campbell and Brennan ( ) but there will be a lot of very good qbs available in the middle rounds this year. No reason to grab a qb.

Even if you want to spend a middle round pick on a QB, is it more important to spend a 3rd-4th on a QB, than to spend it on the line? Remember, we don't have a 2nd round pick this year. We have much more pressing issues than QB; even if you think Campbell isn't the answer, both lines are in need of being addressed in the offseason much moreso than the QB position.

I agree that we need to spend picks on the lines. However, I have no confidence in Vinny/Danny being smart enough to draft dlinemen. We haven't used anything higher than a 5th rounder on the dline since we drafted Kenard Lang so I don't expect them to address the dline anyway. With regard to oline, we do have Rinehart so hopefully he can help next year. Spend the 1st rounder and middle/late round picks on the oline. It's becoming clear that we need to address the qb position and this is a very good year to do it given the depth of talent at the position.

crazyhorse1 wrote:

gibbs4president wrote:

crazyhorse1 wrote:

SkinsJock wrote:And to SkinsFreak's point - I think that we will not have Collins here next year - Campbell and Brennan will be here because these are the better QBs on our roster



I will further predict that Campbell will not be starting for this team in the 2010 season.

Never mind that Collins had the highest qb rating in the NFL last year and Campbell was a guy we had to make excuses for, or that Colt has no record at all-- it's obviously obvious that Colt and JC are much, much better than Collins. What are you going to believe-- the stats and your eyes, or your imagination?

Even if you believe that Collins is a much better quarterback than Campbell, you have to admit that being in Al Saunders's offensive system had a lot to do with his success. Not only is he not in that system now, but he's had to learn a completely new offense just like Campbell.

Collins performed well last year because he knew where to throw the ball and when to throw the ball at all times. He knew the offense much better than any QB on the team; that isn't the case now.

Why exactly would Collins be the better choice right now?

I would be shocked to learn that Collins doesn't better understand the new system than Campbell. He's smarter than Campbell and responds to stimuli faster than Campbell, whose brain is sluggish. System be damned. It's not rocket science. Collins has an agile brain, as well as a quick release. He needs protection a second or so less than Campbell does, and Campbell needs a second more than our horrible line can provide. Do the math.

If Campbell had better protection, he might do fine. However, he doesn't, so nature runs its course. Unless a change is made, we'll struggle to finish 8-8.

Speculate much?

CanesSkins26 wrote:

PulpExposure wrote:

CanesSkins26 wrote:Time for the Skins to start thinking about drafting another. The Big 12 alone has 4-5 qbs with NFL potential that will likely be available in the draft this year. I know that we have Campbell and Brennan ( ) but there will be a lot of very good qbs available in the middle rounds this year. No reason to grab a qb.

Even if you want to spend a middle round pick on a QB, is it more important to spend a 3rd-4th on a QB, than to spend it on the line? Remember, we don't have a 2nd round pick this year. We have much more pressing issues than QB; even if you think Campbell isn't the answer, both lines are in need of being addressed in the offseason much moreso than the QB position.

I agree that we need to spend picks on the lines. However, I have no confidence in Vinny/Danny being smart enough to draft dlinemen. We haven't used anything higher than a 5th rounder on the dline since we drafted Kenard Lang so I don't expect them to address the dline anyway. With regard to oline, we do have Rinehart so hopefully he can help next year. Spend the 1st rounder and middle/late round picks on the oline. It's becoming clear that we need to address the qb position and this is a very good year to do it given the depth of talent at the position.

The o-line is the problem right now, Canes. It doesn't matter what QB you have if there's no protection. You've got to address the o-line first. Buying a new, shiny high powered engine doesn't do you any good if you don't even have wheels to drive on. Sometimes just adding wheels to a car will help make it roll.

SkinsFreak wrote:The o-line is the problem right now, Canes. It doesn't matter what QB you have if there's no protection. You've got to address the o-line first. Buying a new, shiny high powered engine doesn't do you any good if you don't even have wheels to drive on. Sometimes just adding wheels to a car will help make it roll.

Debatable. They were saying the same about the o-line and WR's last season before Collins took over...

I'm not for or against JC being benched.

Chris Luva Luva wrote:

SkinsFreak wrote:The o-line is the problem right now, Canes. It doesn't matter what QB you have if there's no protection. You've got to address the o-line first. Buying a new, shiny high powered engine doesn't do you any good if you don't even have wheels to drive on. Sometimes just adding wheels to a car will help make it roll.

Debatable. They were saying the same about the o-line and WR's last season before Collins took over...

I'm not for or against JC being benched.

The o-line had been stable in the 2nd 1/2 of the season as well. I stil believe that had a part in Collins' success.

VetSkinsFan wrote:

Chris Luva Luva wrote:

SkinsFreak wrote:The o-line is the problem right now, Canes. It doesn't matter what QB you have if there's no protection. You've got to address the o-line first. Buying a new, shiny high powered engine doesn't do you any good if you don't even have wheels to drive on. Sometimes just adding wheels to a car will help make it roll.

Debatable. They were saying the same about the o-line and WR's last season before Collins took over...

I'm not for or against JC being benched.

The o-line had been stable in the 2nd 1/2 of the season as well. I stil believe that had a part in Collins' success.

It was just as much a part of the equation as Collins decisiveness and quick release.

Chris Luva Luva wrote:

VetSkinsFan wrote:

Chris Luva Luva wrote:

SkinsFreak wrote:The o-line is the problem right now, Canes. It doesn't matter what QB you have if there's no protection. You've got to address the o-line first. Buying a new, shiny high powered engine doesn't do you any good if you don't even have wheels to drive on. Sometimes just adding wheels to a car will help make it roll.

Debatable. They were saying the same about the o-line and WR's last season before Collins took over...

I'm not for or against JC being benched.

The o-line had been stable in the 2nd 1/2 of the season as well. I stil believe that had a part in Collins' success.

It was just as much a part of the equation as Collins decisiveness and quick release.

The quick release I'll give him credit for. As for the decisiveness, he had better be decisive if he'd studied the same offense for a decade.

VetSkinsFan wrote:The quick release I'll give him credit for. As for the decisiveness, he had better be decisive if he'd studied the same offense for a decade.

I agree 100% For sake of discussion, lets say that they're decision making ability is equal. There's a big difference in their ability to quickly act on that pass. Is that something that will keep Jason from ever really being potent for us? I dunno...

Jason Campbell was having a great season up until November rolled around. He wasn't exactly in the MVP hunt but he was looking like a very good QB who was taking care of the football.

Now all of a sudden he's making stupid throws. What's different?

Jason Campbell is the most skilled QB the Redskins have had in quite some time, but he's never been allowed to learn and execute an offense, it keeps changing.

What the Redskins need to do is not change quarterbacks, but adjust the system to Campbell's strengths. If it becomes apparent that everyone is wrong and Campbell isn't going to pan out as an above average QB then we can start looking at replacements then, but Campbell sure showed some flashes of brilliance for a while.

Skinsfan55 wrote:What the Redskins need to do is not change quarterbacks, but adjust the system to Campbell's strengths. If it becomes apparent that everyone is wrong and Campbell isn't going to pan out as an above average QB then we can start looking at replacements then, but Campbell sure showed some flashes of brilliance for a while.

I really am shocked at how rarely Zorn goes to the shotgun.

1. It helps with pass protection, which we've clearly struggled with.
2. Campbell has publicly said he prefers it.
3. Most offenses go shotgun on 3rd down. We're still dropping back from center.

I really don't get it.

Skinsfan55 wrote:Jason Campbell was having a great season up until November rolled around. He wasn't exactly in the MVP hunt but he was looking like a very good QB who was taking care of the football.

Now all of a sudden he's making stupid throws. What's different?

Jason Campbell is the most skilled QB the Redskins have had in quite some time, but he's never been allowed to learn and execute an offense, it keeps changing.

What the Redskins need to do is not change quarterbacks, but adjust the system to Campbell's strengths. If it becomes apparent that everyone is wrong and Campbell isn't going to pan out as an above average QB then we can start looking at replacements then, but Campbell sure showed some flashes of brilliance for a while.

Their system is their sytem. After 3 seasons, JC's problems are still the same: slow release, slow decision-making, fumble issues, etc. Nothing has changed. So now, we should adjust the offense again?

Trust me, I totally agree that JC is the most skilled QB we have had in a long time (probably even more skilled in terms of raw talent than 2 of our 3 SB QBs), but I believe that it has been made clear that he doesn't have all the tools to succeed at the level we would like.

The one thing I focused on last night was watching the o-line, the offensive scheme, and how many step drops JC took in the game to really determine whether it was the o-line. From my observations, while the o-line isn't as strong as I would like, JC was misfiring on most of his 3 step drops. He just didn't have the touch and didn't make the quick decisions necessary to complete passes. I love JC, but it would be a waste of time to move forward and form a team around him.

JC definately got away with a fumble that would have gone for a Ravens TD last night. I would've liked to have seen Brennan go after another first half without points.

Doesn't shotgun tip your hand a little? Sure draws and such can be effective, but with Portis I think defenses have to respect the run at anything less than 3rd and 5.

Skinsfan55 wrote:Doesn't shotgun tip your hand a little? Sure draws and such can be effective, but with Portis I think defenses have to respect the run at anything less than 3rd and 5.

Right now, the defenses aren't respecting the run at all, because we just aren't running the ball effectively anymore. Aside from the Seahawks game, we haven't had a good rushing game from Portis since Detroit. Against the Steelers, Cowboys, Giants, and Ravens (good defenses), he's had 50 carries for a grand total of 173 yards...3.46 per carry.

Teams just figure they'll stuff the run with a middle blitz anyways, and more often than not, they're right. Our offensive line is playing as poorly as I can ever remember a Redskins line playing (I'm thinking it's time to bring back Shar Pourdanesh...).

PulpExposure wrote:

Skinsfan55 wrote:Doesn't shotgun tip your hand a little? Sure draws and such can be effective, but with Portis I think defenses have to respect the run at anything less than 3rd and 5.

Right now, the defenses aren't respecting the run at all, because we just aren't running the ball effectively anymore. Aside from the Seahawks game, we haven't had a good rushing game from Portis since Detroit. Against the Steelers, Cowboys, Giants, and Ravens (good defenses), he's had 50 carries for a grand total of 173 yards...3.46 per carry.

Teams just figure they'll stuff the run with a middle blitz anyways, and more often than not, they're right. Our offensive line is playing as poorly as I can ever remember a Redskins line playing (I'm thinking it's time to bring back Shar Pourdanesh...).

I'm not sure that it is that opposing team's aren't respecting the run, or that teams don't respect the pass and therefore play 8 in the box. It is actually a good technique against our offense. CP is our only offensive threat. JC needs a good 4 seconds to think about throwing the ball and our o-line isn't that great. CP was having career games when JC was playing well and that was because teams knew they could potentially get beat on a passing play --- not so much anymore. Teams now realize that JC panics underpressure and needs tons of time to make decisions. Smart defenses, like Baltimore's, will overload on one side, knowing they will get close enough to JC that he will either make a bad decision or panic and scramble into a sack. And because our O-line is bad, they are confident they can get through in time.

This offense is so one-dimensional it is just stupid. CP has been a warrior for us this year. He is banged up, but still playing and not making any excuses. CP has earned every yard he has rushed for this year. Sellers has also been very good this year. I don't even want to know how this team would be without CP. Could you imagine us with Betts out there as an everydown back???? It would be embarrassing (or more so than last night was).

According to this article, the Ravens played a simple strategy that's worked.

Clamp down on Santana Moss (because no other receiver is worth a damn), then blitz every one else.

Like other teams in recent weeks, the Ravens were generally willing to play the run in cover-2, not having to put additional manpower at the line. They alternated between doubling receiver Santana Moss, the only true deep threat, and also playing tight press-man coverage on the smallish outside receivers when they wanted to allocate more defensive backs to the blitz. Campbell was hit 23 times in the losses to Pittsburgh, New York and Dallas, and seven times last night.

Playing the run in cover-2, NOT putting additional manpower at the line. Doesn't sound like respecting the run very much, does it?

markshark84 wrote:I'm not sure that it is that opposing team's aren't respecting the run, or that teams don't respect the pass and therefore play 8 in the box.

It's been like that since MB04 was at the helm.

PulpExposure wrote:According to this article, the Ravens played a simple strategy that's worked.

Clamp down on Santana Moss (because no other receiver is worth a damn), then blitz every one else.

Like other teams in recent weeks, the Ravens were generally willing to play the run in cover-2, not having to put additional manpower at the line. They alternated between doubling receiver Santana Moss, the only true deep threat, and also playing tight press-man coverage on the smallish outside receivers when they wanted to allocate more defensive backs to the blitz. Campbell was hit 23 times in the losses to Pittsburgh, New York and Dallas, and seven times last night.

Playing the run in cover-2, NOT putting additional manpower at the line. Doesn't sound like respecting the run very much, does it?

Not sure. When you double one receiver (the second being the SS or FS)and blitz everyone else, it does appear you are respecting the run in that you are allocating 80% of your defense to the line of scrimmage and not downfield. The Ravens typically play a 3-4, so they did add additional manpower to the line. Yes, the Ravens also play 4-3 and 4-6 (at times), but the fact is that last night, the majority of the plays were run out of the 4-3.

Their defensive scheme last night was executed perfectly. They disregarded the 2 and 3 receivers (because ARE is not good and JC can act quickly enough to get to the 3rd receiver) and concentrate on bringing in the house to stop the run and/or rush JC.

PulpExposure wrote:According to this article, the Ravens played a simple strategy that's worked.

Clamp down on Santana Moss (because no other receiver is worth a damn), then blitz every one else.

Like other teams in recent weeks, the Ravens were generally willing to play the run in cover-2, not having to put additional manpower at the line. They alternated between doubling receiver Santana Moss, the only true deep threat, and also playing tight press-man coverage on the smallish outside receivers when they wanted to allocate more defensive backs to the blitz. Campbell was hit 23 times in the losses to Pittsburgh, New York and Dallas, and seven times last night.

Playing the run in cover-2, NOT putting additional manpower at the line. Doesn't sound like respecting the run very much, does it?

When a defense is as good as the Ravens (or Cowboys, Giants or Steelers) and you're playing an offense as bad as ours I don't think it matters a whole heck of a lot what kind of defense you play. Frankly we don't have the personnel to have a good offense, which is what your quote really gets down to. But we do have some pieces. Zorn's got to address this with the front office in the off season. Play calling's not going to solve this. The quote says if you focus on the few guys we have capable of making plays you will shut down our O. I'd have to totally agree with that. To your point empirical evidence certainly supports it.

KazooSkinsFan wrote:

PulpExposure wrote:According to this article, the Ravens played a simple strategy that's worked.

Clamp down on Santana Moss (because no other receiver is worth a damn), then blitz every one else.

Like other teams in recent weeks, the Ravens were generally willing to play the run in cover-2, not having to put additional manpower at the line. They alternated between doubling receiver Santana Moss, the only true deep threat, and also playing tight press-man coverage on the smallish outside receivers when they wanted to allocate more defensive backs to the blitz. Campbell was hit 23 times in the losses to Pittsburgh, New York and Dallas, and seven times last night.

Frankly we don't have the personnel to have a good offense, which is what your quote really gets down to. But we do have some pieces. Zorn's got to address this with the front office in the off season.

These are the folllowing offensive players (or "pieces") I would like (as starters) next season:

CP
Sellers
Moss
ey
Samuels
Rabach

The rest can go.