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Posted: Fri Oct 16, 2009 11:35 am
by brad7686
CanesSkins26 wrote:frankcal20 wrote:I agree. I like Jake Locker out of Washington. Check that dude out on youtube. He's built like a house, accuracy is a concern but he can run and has a hell of a lot of natural ability.
Locker right now is a top 15 pick. There is even talk of him being the first overall pick if he comes out. ZERO chance that he is around in the 2nd round.
That's true, Locker is picking up steam at the moment. Still, if enough qb's come out, it's going to make things interesting. I severely doubt more than 4 teams will go qb in the first round. Its possible that Bradford, McCoy, Locker, Pike, Claussen, Snead could all be in the draft, but thats just conjecture at this point.
Posted: Fri Oct 16, 2009 12:43 pm
by markshark84
mweb08 wrote:markshark84 wrote:mweb08 wrote:SkinsJock wrote:from what you are saying I think we both feel that this team needs a big upgrade with offensive line - no worries - fact is many here have been hoping for better depth along both lines for some time but because you know who do not know what they are doing, we are now experiencing what it is like to have a team with a few true NFL stars and zero depth
a few here (including myself) were concerned with this offense this season - we understood that we did not have many choices and I think we did the right thing in grabbing Orakpo - we have, for a few years now, had issues with both lines, and, with the addition of 2 new young linemen on defense we have helped our defensive line and hopefully we will continue to add to that for depth
the issues with the offense (from last year) were not just the offensive line but also the QB, the receivers, a "change of pace" RB and the play calling - each of these areas have so far proven to be a disaster - we were encouraged by some here to give it some time and we would be able to find out what were the most pressing areas of concern and address that (or those) in the near future - well, we have seen that
none of these areas of concern have been even close to NFL level of acceptable play.
we do need to get some offensive linemen in here but we'' also need a decent QB and the quickest way to get any success is to bring in a FA and hopefully find the next superstar young QB and get him ready while we build this team
Now for the bad news
all of this requires a management group that knows what it is doing, which we do not have and will not have in the near future - SO - why not get a superstar QB and just throw him out there and hope it works out - that is what we have done with the other positions here for the last 10 years - I'll bet we get all excited here next off-season because that's how the marketing genius that owns this team will make the gullible fans here feel ... again
like the add says "WAKE UP PEOPLE"
man I hope we win this game this week or it could get really ugly here very quickly - we will not get to the 8 wins we were hoping for but we sure do not need to throw this season away just yet
A QB with an 88.5 QB rating given the Offensive line and running game he's given is pretty good. Far from a disaster.
That 88.5 QB rating is the biggest lie in all of stats. Up until last game, JC has had adequate pass blocking support. The stat we should be concerned with isn't the QB rating. It should be the amount of points put up.
There are a couple stats that stick out to me with JC
1. In 41 games, JC has only won a game by more than 2 scores once in his career
2. In 41 games, JC has only scored more than 30 points in 2 games.
3. In 41 games (and 1277 attempts), JC has only thrown 12 passes for over 40 yards. Meanwhile he has fumbled the ball 29 times.
All of these are NFL RECORDS.
Concerning points, yeah, it's an issue, but's it in large part due to awful playcalling in the red zone and a mediocre at best offense surrounding JC.
Look, I know it's easy to just blame things on the QB, but it's just not that simple and it's really not hard to see the other issues and how large they are. I'm not saying JC is great by any means, but he is decent and is far from being the biggest problem on the team.
All I hear is excuses. Playcalling? The are stats over his entire career. So Saunders and Gibbs also lacked the ability to call plays? Right.
Right now, as of last week, we have an OL problem. This season we have problems running the ball. Up to last week, JC has had adequate protection in the pocket -- yet we still couldn't effectively throw the ball and score.
Regardless of our offensive personell, coach, team opponent, etc., JC has provided us with the same, low point scoring, below average, product. Last year he had, argueably, one of the best RBs in the league, one of the best TEs in the league, and a very good WR. Still averaged around 12 points a game. Now, IMHO, the WRs are not very good because of the guy throwing the ball to them, not the other way around.
The stats I gave you are over his ENTIRE CAREER. Do you really think that it is because of everyone else, regardless of the presonell? You don't think that the team general may have had something to do with it? Trust me, our biggest issue is the team general, the leader on offense. Offensive drives live and die by the QB. And over the course of JC's career, it is become painfully obvious JC lacks the ability to put the ball in the endzone. Plain and simple. For the sake of this team, we need to get rid of him.
Posted: Fri Oct 16, 2009 12:49 pm
by markshark84
brad7686 wrote:CanesSkins26 wrote:frankcal20 wrote:I agree. I like Jake Locker out of Washington. Check that dude out on youtube. He's built like a house, accuracy is a concern but he can run and has a hell of a lot of natural ability.
Locker right now is a top 15 pick. There is even talk of him being the first overall pick if he comes out. ZERO chance that he is around in the 2nd round.
That's true, Locker is picking up steam at the moment. Still, if enough qb's come out, it's going to make things interesting. I severely doubt more than 4 teams will go qb in the first round. Its possible that Bradford, McCoy, Locker, Pike, Claussen, Snead could all be in the draft, but thats just conjecture at this point.
Teams that need QBs trade up to get them --- if they really want them. A good QB will not sit and fall to the second round. The only one I can think of where this happened was with Trent Edwards. A good QB is not going to fall in our laps.
If we want a quality QB, then we need to take one in the first round -- unless you all are content with scoring 10 points a game with JC
.
Posted: Fri Oct 16, 2009 2:13 pm
by brad7686
markshark84 wrote:brad7686 wrote:CanesSkins26 wrote:frankcal20 wrote:I agree. I like Jake Locker out of Washington. Check that dude out on youtube. He's built like a house, accuracy is a concern but he can run and has a hell of a lot of natural ability.
Locker right now is a top 15 pick. There is even talk of him being the first overall pick if he comes out. ZERO chance that he is around in the 2nd round.
That's true, Locker is picking up steam at the moment. Still, if enough qb's come out, it's going to make things interesting. I severely doubt more than 4 teams will go qb in the first round. Its possible that Bradford, McCoy, Locker, Pike, Claussen, Snead could all be in the draft, but thats just conjecture at this point.
Teams that need QBs trade up to get them --- if they really want them. A good QB will not sit and fall to the second round. The only one I can think of where this happened was with Trent Edwards. A good QB is not going to fall in our laps.
If we want a quality QB, then we need to take one in the first round -- unless you all are content with scoring 10 points a game with JC
.
usually that is correct. not this year if everyone who can come out does.
Posted: Fri Oct 16, 2009 3:41 pm
by SkinsJock
This team will have a better chance of success for the longer term if we can have a really good QB - I also agree that we will be a lot better offense with a great offensive line, but we need both and soon - HOWEVER with the guys we have managing and scouting we do not look like we will ever find a diamond in the rough like a Brady as a QB or a Colston as a WR
IMHO - we need to ensure that we have a great QB as soon as possible AND we need to get a really good offensive line - basically we all know what we need to do as far as the offense is concerned but the fact remains that the guys in charge have not shown that they can get that done
Posted: Fri Oct 16, 2009 6:45 pm
by FireVinny
SkinsJock wrote:IMHO - we need to ensure that we have a great QB as soon as possible AND we need to get a really good offensive line - basically we all know what we need to do as far as the offense is concerned but the fact remains that the guys in charge have not shown that they can get that done
There is only 1 great QB in next year's draft, and we won't get to pick him unless we trade up. There are a bunch of guys who might be good, but are far from sure things... some of them are badly overrated and destined to be flops (MCCOY).
Don't be convinced that spending a 1st round pick on a QB means we actually get a franchise QB... that's not the way it works.
Posted: Fri Oct 16, 2009 7:37 pm
by markshark84
FireVinny wrote:SkinsJock wrote:IMHO - we need to ensure that we have a great QB as soon as possible AND we need to get a really good offensive line - basically we all know what we need to do as far as the offense is concerned but the fact remains that the guys in charge have not shown that they can get that done
There is only 1 great QB in next year's draft, and we won't get to pick him unless we trade up. There are a bunch of guys who might be good, but are far from sure things... some of them are badly overrated and destined to be flops (MCCOY).
Don't be convinced that spending a 1st round pick on a QB means we actually get a franchise QB... that's not the way it works.
But, there are going to be about 6 QBs far better than JC in the draft...and the QB position will give this team the most significant amount of improvement.
We have to make sure we get a QB in either the first or the second, but if we don't think the QB will be available in round 2, we have to take him in 1.
Posted: Fri Oct 16, 2009 8:24 pm
by Countertrey
When Oakland drafted Jamarcus, everyone was sure that HE was far better than Campbell, too. How'd that work? The point is, you have no idea. That's why there are players like Russell and Young... and players like Brady, Kurt Warner and Marc Bulger
Posted: Fri Oct 16, 2009 10:19 pm
by SkinsJock
not to mention a QB like Rich Gannon - there are no such things as a given that anyone at any position is going to make it - the really hard thing is to not just finding the QB but to find the great one that suits exactly what you want
Brady was not even the best QB at Michigan - I'm sure he thought he was but the coaches there did not and the ONLY reason he got an opportunity in the NFL was besause of an injury to Bledsoe. Even then, stupid Bill the cheat thought about making Bledsoe the starter again when he came back
Posted: Fri Oct 16, 2009 10:41 pm
by markshark84
Countertrey wrote: (1) When Oakland drafted Jamarcus, everyone was sure that HE was far better than Campbell, too. How'd that work?
(2) The point is, you have no idea. That's why there are players like Russell and Young... and players like Brady, Kurt Warner and Marc Bulger
(1) Not me. I thought that Russell was a wasted pick.
(2) The point I was making is that it is obvious there are 6 better QBs. JC is one of the worst starting QBs in the league, and after this year, there is a 90% chance he is a QB2. As long as there are 6 2nd string calibur QBs, then there is. This upcoming draft has the possibility of being on of the best QB drafts in memory. There is the potential for a ton of talent to come out at the QB position. To sit here and not take advantage of that would create even more problems for this team. We need to swallow that pill and move on. JC was a BUST. End of story.
I'm not going to sit here, drink the kool-aid like most of you have done prior to the season (people now are starting to realize much of what I have said) and say we really don't know what is wrong with the offense or this team (which is a different subject, but ownership/GM). Am I saying you are, not really, but I think that it is obvious. In the past 5 seasons we have been to the playoffs twice. Once under Brunell and under Collins. In all other seasons, JC was the QB1.
Posted: Sat Oct 17, 2009 1:01 am
by old-timer
Gibbs won three Super Bowls with three DIFFERENT, just-above-average QBs and with essentially the same GREAT O-Line personnel. To paraphrase a famous quote, IT'S THE LINE, STUPID. We need O-Line help, bad, forget this nonsense about spending high draft picks for QB's that we can't even protect.
Oh, and we need a new owner.
Posted: Sat Oct 17, 2009 2:33 am
by RayNAustin
Three just above average QBs ??
COME ON. Joe T. was way above average; Doug W. set Super Bowl records and played the best Quarter in Super Bowl history as well as being a fine QB with a poor Tampa Bay team; and Mark R. set the then NFL record for scoring in a single season, when the redskins offense averaged over 30 points per game.
Man, it never ends with this exaggeration. Jason Campbell can't even be mentioned in the same sentence as those three QBs. He fits in better with Heath Shular, Tony Banks, and Danny Awful.
Posted: Sat Oct 17, 2009 2:39 am
by Smithian
I say we wait one year and pick up a 6'7, 250 pound QB with the best arm in college football. Someone by the name Ryan Mallett!
Even though I'd love to get Ryan Mallett on this team, we can't put off QB a single year if Campbell isn't coming back.
Posted: Sat Oct 17, 2009 10:07 am
by SkinsJock
I'm not advocating giving up a high pick on a QB - my feeling is just that this team needs to acquire a really good QB, somehow someway, AND we need to do that as quickly as possible
I totally agree that we will be a lot better team with great offensive and defensive lines - BUT, we really neeed to get a great QB in here and ensure that we never see a debacle like we are witnessing here again
Having a great QB should be (and should have been) the #1 priority of any team - getting one that can play for you for a long time is just adding to the time you have to find the next great QB and all the while you are in the playoffs each year where anything can happen - look at the giants in 2007
having a good team is really not a hard thing to do - the hard part about having a good team is having great depth at most positions, that's all
Posted: Sat Oct 17, 2009 8:19 pm
by VetSkinsFan
Smithian wrote:I say we wait one year and pick up a 6'7, 250 pound QB with the best arm in college football. Someone by the name Ryan Mallett!
Even though I'd love to get Ryan Mallett on this team, we can't put off QB a single year if Campbell isn't coming back.
I watched him vs Florida today. If that's his usualy game, then I don't want 'em.
Posted: Sun Oct 18, 2009 1:25 am
by Smithian
VetSkinsFan wrote:Smithian wrote:I say we wait one year and pick up a 6'7, 250 pound QB with the best arm in college football. Someone by the name Ryan Mallett!
Even though I'd love to get Ryan Mallett on this team, we can't put off QB a single year if Campbell isn't coming back.
I watched him vs Florida today. If that's his usualy game, then I don't want 'em.
Today our top two playmakers were both out in All-SEC RB Michael Smith and WR Joe Adams. Our #2 WR in Jarius Wright was also struggling with a concussion and played sparingly. Also, remember we were playing UF who had the #1 defense in the nation. He still had his moments with a couple huge throws and also showed some spunk getting in the face of D-Lineman.
Aside from this game and the Alabama game(our O-Line died and we had 6 dropped passes), Ryan Mallett has been owning people. I am convinced Ryan Mallett is a better pro prospect than anyone in this draft. Remember all the guys we're looking at are seniors and he only had his 9th collegiate start today.
Regardless, I don't think we can put off QB any more if we're not committed to Campbell.
Posted: Sun Oct 18, 2009 5:36 pm
by mweb08
Well at least it looks like we'll get a very high pick. I'd prefer to trade down to accumulate multiple picks, this team just needs an infusion of young talent. One player, even if it's a good rookie QB, will not make a big enough difference if the other issues aren't addressed. In fact that QB will likely struggle due to a poor supporting cast, and then we'll have people blaming the QB for a crappy offense again.
But at least we should have better coaching on offense, so that's a big plus.
Posted: Sun Oct 18, 2009 7:27 pm
by FireVinny
SkinsJock wrote:I'm not advocating giving up a high pick on a QB - my feeling is just that this team needs to acquire a really good QB, somehow someway, AND we need to do that as quickly as possible
A large part of the Snyder/Cerrato regime's failure has been the mindset that everything needs to be done right away. Winning needs to be immediate. If this team is ever going to be a Super Bowl champion again, it needs to be rebuild slowly (NFL slowly is 2-3 seasons). We don't need to win in 2010... 2011 and 2012 should be our goals.
There's only 1 sure-fire franchise QB in this draft, and that's Sam Bradford. The others are good college QBs who might turn into decent pros, but there's a 50/50 chance that Colt McCoy or Jake Locker are just as bad as Campbell. McCoy throws a lot of stupid passes and Locker isn't very accurate.
I'm not saying this team doesn't need a QB. I think that argument has gone out the window after today. I just don't want to see us ignore other holes in order to go after someone who isn't any better than what we currently have.
But hey, at least the Eagles lost today!
Posted: Sun Oct 18, 2009 9:01 pm
by Countertrey
O line
Posted: Mon Oct 19, 2009 8:46 am
by SkinsJock
I agree - draft the linemen and 'buy' the best QB - you cannot take a chance on the most important position on your team
while there are a number of games to go we do look like being in a better draft position than I thought
Posted: Mon Oct 19, 2009 9:57 am
by RedskinsFreak
BUT ... whatever draft strategy that gets implemented can't be done with much of any objective of being competitive in 2010 or even 2011.
This thing is a three-season fix, at least. That's the tough part to swallow after dealing with 10 years of dreck.
And, each year they continue in the "fix it now so we can contend next season" mode probably adds 1.5 to 2 years to the fix-it-the-right-way process.
Posted: Mon Oct 19, 2009 10:39 am
by CanesSkins26
SkinsJock wrote:CanesSkins26 wrote:I only measure the Redskins by their potential to be a "team" - right now IMO they are not a very good team or a really bad team
Actually a really bad team is exactly what we are right now.
isn't it fun to be able to come here and try and get a rise out of people by making such assinine comments like this - this is really helpful to the discussion - as we have seen, we have some issues but this team is not really bad, sorry
Not really bad, huh?
Posted: Mon Oct 19, 2009 10:33 pm
by markshark84
CanesSkins26 wrote:SkinsJock wrote:CanesSkins26 wrote:I only measure the Redskins by their potential to be a "team" - right now IMO they are not a very good team or a really bad team
Actually a really bad team is exactly what we are right now.
isn't it fun to be able to come here and try and get a rise out of people by making such assinine comments like this - this is really helpful to the discussion - as we have seen, we have some issues but this team is not really bad, sorry
Not really bad, huh?
I tried to talk some sense in him, but he didn't listen.
Posted: Mon Oct 19, 2009 11:10 pm
by frankcal20
Sometimes I wonder if Caneskins and Markshark are the same person or twins separated at birth. They think exactly alike.
Posted: Mon Oct 19, 2009 11:58 pm
by brad7686
Here it is...
1st- Russell Okung, OT, OK State
2nd- Jevan Snead, QB, Ole Miss
3rd- Sam Young, OT, Notre Dame (move to right tackle)
Do we have all 3 of those picks?