The-Hogs.net - Washington Football Discussion, Redskins to Commanders Era

VetSkinsFan wrote:As much as I hate to say it, ray makes a lot of good points in this post. Maybe a little extreme compared to my views, but I haven't really disagreed with much. I think it's also been stated in another post about it appearing that the game just isn't slowing down for JC like a lot of us armchair GMs had hoped.

I'm still of the midset that maybe this isn't the right system for JC. I'm not saying he can't cut it in the NFL, just maybe not this system.

I feared that if my assessment of Campbell's shortcomings were correct that Zorn's system would make things even more difficult for Campbell, and said so at the beginning of the year. Of course games 2-5 looked like he was turning things around, but.....

It makes sense. His weaknesses (holding the ball too long....taking too long to make his reads, bad touch and accuracy issues on short throws etc) were the exact things that the WC offense demands proficiency. Add to that the extra resonsibility for setting the pass pro at the line is just too much for him.

He says he's more comfortable in the shotgun. But he had trouble with Saunders too.

I think this is about the speed of the game. Get rid of the ball in 3 seconds or less, you're good. Hold it for 1/2 to 1 second longer and you're looking at defensed passes, incomplete passes, and sacks.

Most every team, every week will have a sack or two they give up simply because their man beat them. It happens. But when you have a QB that holds the ball too long and is slow in making decisions, that might contribute to a couple more sacks and many more pressures, making an average o-line look terrible. I think that is exactly what is happening.

Campbell loses concentration, and he himself readily admits, loses sight of receivers when playing from under center. This is a huge issue....

Think of it as if you are shooting a gun. Target acquisition is everything. You can't hit what you can't find, and the moment you lose sight of the receivers, you're dead. That's where the extra time is being lost....he loses sight of his targets...they're moving, and he has to re-acquire them before he can set, and then pull the trigger. You might get that extra time in college, but not in the NFL.

The early success in games 2-5 where likely due to a scaled back playbook, and a lot of reps to make execution more seamless and quicker. But as the playbook expanded, there's not enough time to get enough reps on everything to accomplish that level of execution.

It's like people from the east coast do things faster (everything) than the slower, more laid back southerners. You aren't going to slow down the east coasters, and you ain't going to speed up the southerners permanently. You could get them to speed up or slow down when they are making a conscious effort to do so, but they will eventually return back to their natural tendencies.

The old saying, you can't change the stripes on a zebra is what we're talking about here.

Jason's clock runs a bit slower, and nothing about the NFL works in slow mode. Everything is quicker...and that's Jason's biggest downfall. Slow.

Hi there (newbie to the boards)~!
just wondering on everyone's thoughts of JC next year(since it will be his 'last year of contract' before FA).
should the Skins:
1) resign right away(to keep him possibly on the cheap?)
2) wait til after his contract expires(possibly having to sign him at a higher price?)
3) don't resign him
4) trade him away

I'm honestly a new fan, so not too deep on JC(and i've read all kinds of comments on this being his 3rd offense etc. but i'm sorta beginning to think this isn't the right offense for him. is it perhaps better for him to be signed & traded to another team for O/D linemen while he's still somewhat of value?).
also some player contracts are set to expire soon as well? maybe we could sign more youth/skilled at both line positions? especially at O/L & D/L seem to be a MUST while the WRs are still 'workable'

Ray, honest question - What do you hope to accomplish here? By now, I think everyone on thehogs.net fully understands your position, as you've posted the same thing for the over a year. I respect your posting stamina, and your passion as the anti-Campbell, but I just don't understand why you expend so much energy on the same exact topic, saying the same thing over and over.

Help me understand what your goals are; help a brother out here.

PulpExposure wrote:Ray, honest question - What do you hope to accomplish here? By now, I think everyone on thehogs.net fully understands your position, as you've posted the same thing for the over a year. I respect your posting stamina, and your passion as the anti-Campbell, but I just don't understand why you expend so much energy on the same exact topic, saying the same thing over and over.

Help me understand what your goals are; help a brother out here.

my thinking is that it has to do with some sort of a brainwashing technique. but i'm not sure.

PulpExposure wrote:Ray, honest question - What do you hope to accomplish here? By now, I think everyone on thehogs.net fully understands your position, as you've posted the same thing for the over a year. I respect your posting stamina, and your passion as the anti-Campbell, but I just don't understand why you expend so much energy on the same exact topic, saying the same thing over and over.

Help me understand what your goals are; help a brother out here.

For every one of my posts, there are 10 taking an opposing but equally repetitious stance. Many of which are directed to me which I respond to. Yet I'm the one you ask this question of? Would it not be equally appropriate to ask the same thing of the other posters?

Or are politely suggesting I leave the board because I'm not agreeing with the consensus view?

I don't ever recall seeing a thread in which, with no posts from Ray yet included, anyone has ever said "Hey, Ray, please post your mindless, repetitive, mantra once again, because I just need clarification one more time."

That aside, I am just increasingly concerned that Campbell is not the answer for this system. Among the atributes that a successful WC quarterback must have is the ability to improvise. With the exception of using his exceptional mobility to escape the occasional sack, I have not once observed Jason Campbell create gold from a disaster. The problem is, his is incredibly risk averse. He won't take chances. sure, that results in a positive TD to interception ratio, but what good is that when you only throw 7 touchdown passes???

I was originally concerned about Campbell because of what we saw last year. He did not seem to have a sense of urgency. I guess that I was hoping that with Zorn he would get over the hump and be that special QB that we were hoping for.

I am now not convinced that he will be anything but a good to very good QB. That is not enough for this team - we deserve and should have a very good to great QB.

IMO - Campbell is not going to be our QB of the future - he does not provide that special quality and confidence that he can make the plays when you really need them. He's improved but I just do not think he's going to get over the hump.


The only thing is - this is the best QB of the 3 we have - I think if Zorn felt that either Collins or Brennan could give the team a better chance to win they would have been given the chance.

We also should not be trying to do anything just to make a change at this time - we are not going to be a better team just by changing QBs - that is not something that this team needs right now.


if we end this season at 11-5 or 10-6 we will have had a decent to good season in my estimation. Yes, we have some work to do to get better in the next couple of years, but we are a lot better team and in a lot better situation than many other franchises.

If we came out of this season with an 11-5 10-6 record i would consider this a success. Rookie head coach, new system and have a great record like that? I'd say that bodes well for the future.

RayNAustin wrote:Or are politely suggesting I leave the board because I'm not agreeing with the consensus view?

Not in the least, Ray. Just wondering why you felt such a complusion to post on the same argument over and over. I rarely see you in other Redskins related posts; in my mind (and maybe mistakenly), you've become a 1-issue poster with respect to the Skins.

RayNAustin wrote:As for the others you mentioned, God, how many times do we have to go through the same exercise?? Whatever....let's do it

<sigh> Damn dude, do you even read the posts? Or are you so hell bent on making the same point endlessly that you can't even grasp what's being said?

First, that wasn't my list. It came from an external blog I posted several pages ago.

Who the He!! is Matt Terl?? Oh, a blogger....and a fan like the rest of us. Now I'm impressed.

Again, you failed to read the post. Yes, he's a blogger. But he has one SIGNIFICANT advantage over the rest of us, and you. He is one of the very few privileged that is allowed to actually attend the practices. Therefore, he has first-hand knowledge of how the QB's compare on the field.

You continually point to the four game stretch at the end of last season, in Saunders system, as your evidence that Collins is the better QB and should be the stater. Yet you haven't seen the three QB's perform side-by-side, on the field at the same time, in Zorn's system. That's the point, Ray. Matt Terl does, on a daily basis, and has reported that it's "reasonably clear why Campbell is the starter".

So unless you're personally attending the practices and workouts, you have nothing to go on and I defy you to prove Terl's observations wrong. The rest of us aren't there either, but if Zorn thinks JC is our best option, based on what he's witnessed, than common sense tells us that JC should be the guy for now.

Jurgensen (1961, Philly Eagles.) 3723 yards, 32 TDs in a 14 game season
(1964, 1st year Redskin) 2934 and 24 TDs

Jay Schroeder 2nd year starting 4109 yards 22 TDs

Mark Rypien 2nd year starting, 3758 yards, 22 TDs

Brett Favre 1st year starting (13 games) 3227 yards 18 TD

Donovan McNabb 2nd year starting 3365 yards, 21 TDs

Jay Cutler 2nd year 3497 yards, 20 TDs

Marc Bulger 2nd year starting 3845 yards, 22 TDs

Ben Roethlisberger (rookie year) 2621 yards, 17 TDs

Matt Ryan (Rookie this year) 13 games 2626 yards, 13 TDs

Aaron Rodgers 1st year starting 2897 yards, 20 TDs

<sigh> Yet again, you failed to post the most relevant stat when comparing other QB's to Campbell. JC has had to learn three different systems in his first four years in the league. So go down your list and add how many systems each of those guys played in, then you'll have a better basis for comparison.

Anyone can find stats to prove ANY argument one way of the other, but of OUR current roster QB's, JC is starting for a reason, because he's currently the best qualified on the team.

Now, no one here has said that JC is blameless, another glaring point you fail to comprehend, but most acknowledge that Zorn's a very good judge of QB talent and deserves the benefit of the doubt. If Zorn decides to make a change somewhere down the line, then I believe most will respect and support that decision as well. But if he says JC is the man, for now, than his PROFESSIONAL judgments are far more sound and fact based than your non-professional and ignorant opinions. (ignorant meaning you aren't there and don't see the 3 QB's competing side-by-side at the same time)



And here's my final prediction. Save for an injury to Campbell this year, Collins will NEVER be the starter in Washington. If JC gets hurt this year, then yes, Collins would most likely finish the season. But that's the ONLY chance Collins will ever have to lead this team. If JC struggles and Zorn decides to hold an open competition with a subsequent change, I predict Zorn will go with Brennan. Collins was Saunders guy and JC was Gibbs' guy. Colt was Zorn's selection at QB and I believe he would be the player to take over.

I'm not opposed to holding an open competition in the offseason. Regardless of what the coaches say, there's always a competition going on, at every position. This is a sport and teams always want to field the best players. As I've said before, whether JC is the starter and Colt is the back-up, or vice-versa, it doesn't matter to me. I think both players can be pretty good. I'm a closet Colt fan, so I'm actually intrigued and curious to see what he does next year in preseason. And if he impresses and earns it, then go with him at that point. But at THIS point, it's JC until the season is over.

But enough with this. I already know your response, I've read it a hundred times.

This was JC's season all along. Only if he played horribly would we have seen a change at QB. He has played good, but no spectacular football. And the running game has been huge this year, as we all know.

Next year, I think we'll see some good competition at QB. Collins will go, so it will be Brennan, Campbell and one veteran chosen by Zorn.

Should be interesting, because this year is cooked.

SkinsFreak wrote:<sigh> Yet again, you failed to post the most relevant stat when comparing other QB's to Campbell. JC has had to learn three different systems in his first four years in the league. So go down your list and add how many systems each of those guys played in, then you'll have a better basis for comparison.

But enough with this. I already know your response, I've read it a hundred times.

Yes, and you not only repeat the same lame story ad nauseam, but your story is often a distortion, sometimes flat out false, and regularly makes no sense. But it is a perfect example for answering why I post what I post so repetitively....I do so because you and others continue to post repetitively false and distorted points.

Of the many QB's listed and their relative performances in years 1 and 2, Just how many offensive systems could they possibly have played in in two years? In Romo's case it was two, which is exactly twice as many as Campbell played in his first 2 years. I'm not sure how that supports your position....I think it further supports mine.

So this is the last time I'll point out this absolute FACT for you......contrary to your repeated false claims otherwise, Campbell played his first 2 years (2006 and 2007) IN ONE SINGLE SYSTEM, not two, not 15, ONE. AL SAUNDERS SYSTEM. Every single snap in 2006 and 2007 was the same system. If I'm mistaken here....please tell me about the other systems he was forced to play in which confused him so?

I missed no relevant point, because in your argument, there isn't one, just some figment of your imagination that Campbell played in 5 different systems in 2 years.

maybe JC should just do the exact oppisite of what he has been doing, yea, instead of holding the ball throw it, that way we all say somthing else as long as that happens especially when portis is not running due to injury or even because the oline was being crushed. lets celebrate that were atleast better than say the 1978 tampa team and thats good.,...... this is zorns 1rst year, there are four games left, they can turn things around and aren't even doing that badly, buy the end of the superbowl we could very well have a top thread....zorn coach of the year. I actually think that the skins and cowboys will both be 11-5 making the east a very interesting situation.

Campbell looks the same regardless of what offense he runs, sure he shows flashes, so did Jeff George. We dont have a better option on the team right now but, we better start shopping for next year or its gonna look the same again.

Now in all fairness, I'd say give him the rest of the season to take "command" of it, let him know his butt is on the line and he better start playing like a top teir QB because thats what we need.

All this mess about the O-line is somewhat misleading, opposing defenses have no fear of being burnt by blitzing Campbell, his release is better this year, he just takes waaaay to long to make a decision. Pressure makes that worse and defenses see that now. A higher % of blitzes combined with injuries at RB is going to make any O-line look bad. still theyre adequate.

Ask yourself, how many times this year have you seen Campbell make the 3step drop and release thats a staple of the westcoast system without setting his feet at least twice. He's still making decisions, not playing on instinct. Instinct for the game does not change with system, he's getting by on athletic ability and nothing more. I'll take some interceptions from a guy that plays on instinct (Favre) as long as we score points and win games. The QB position relies heavily on instinct and JC dont show he has it. He is still taking the snap, then deciding what to do with the football, rather than knowing what he is going to do before the snap, and doing it. too much thinking involved

RayNAustin wrote:

SkinsFreak wrote:<sigh> Yet again, you failed to post the most relevant stat when comparing other QB's to Campbell. JC has had to learn three different systems in his first four years in the league. So go down your list and add how many systems each of those guys played in, then you'll have a better basis for comparison.

But enough with this. I already know your response, I've read it a hundred times.

Yes, and you not only repeat the same lame story ad nauseam, but your story is often a distortion, sometimes flat out false, and regularly makes no sense. But it is a perfect example for answering why I post what I post so repetitively....I do so because you and others continue to post repetitively false and distorted points.

Of the many QB's listed and their relative performances in years 1 and 2, Just how many offensive systems could they possibly have played in in two years? In Romo's case it was two, which is exactly twice as many as Campbell played in his first 2 years. I'm not sure how that supports your position....I think it further supports mine.

So this is the last time I'll point out this absolute FACT for you......contrary to your repeated false claims otherwise, Campbell played his first 2 years (2006 and 2007) IN ONE SINGLE SYSTEM, not two, not 15, ONE. AL SAUNDERS SYSTEM. Every single snap in 2006 and 2007 was the same system. If I'm mistaken here....please tell me about the other systems he was forced to play in which confused him so?

I missed no relevant point, because in your argument, there isn't one, just some figment of your imagination that Campbell played in 5 different systems in 2 years.

The whole point of displaying those other QB's stats in the article, was to point out that you can't compare QB's numbers, though, which is what you continue to do. The author was saying that individuals take different lengths of time to come into there own, and Jason is still on the learning curve. He has shown steady improvement each and every season, even if you refuse to acknowledge it. Now, whether or not we continue to give him time to get to his eventual plateau, or give up on the time already invested in him, and go with a young QB, who may or may not take years more to reach the same level. It's a crap shoot, but I, the coaches, and every observer close to the team, seem to think sticking with Campbell is the best direction to go. But Ray, you know better, right?

RayNAustin wrote:So this is the last time I'll point out this absolute FACT for you......contrary to your repeated false claims otherwise, Campbell played his first 2 years (2006 and 2007) IN ONE SINGLE SYSTEM, not two, not 15, ONE. AL SAUNDERS SYSTEM. Every single snap in 2006 and 2007 was the same system. If I'm mistaken here....please tell me about the other systems he was forced to play in which confused him so?

Just one question, Mr. Facts... what year was Campbell drafted and what year did All Saunders arrive in DC?

Oh, that's right... JC was drafted in April of 2005 and Al didn't arrive until January of 2006. JC first had to learn Gibbs' system, then Saunders' and now Zorn's. That's THREE! Even though JC never actually started in 2005 under Gibbs' system, he STILL had to learn it in his first year, as they didn't know Al was coming until after the 2005 season.

But whatever, Ray, we all know you know better.

Time for the Skins to start thinking about drafting another. The Big 12 alone has 4-5 qbs with NFL potential that will likely be available in the draft this year. I know that we have Campbell and Brennan ( ) but there will be a lot of very good qbs available in the middle rounds this year. No reason to grab a qb.

And to SkinsFreak's point - I think that we will not have Collins here next year - Campbell and Brennan will be here because these are the better QBs on our roster



I will further predict that Campbell will not be starting for this team in the 2010 season.

CanesSkins26 wrote:Time for the Skins to start thinking about drafting another. The Big 12 alone has 4-5 qbs with NFL potential that will likely be available in the draft this year. I know that we have Campbell and Brennan ( ) but there will be a lot of very good qbs available in the middle rounds this year. No reason to grab a qb.

Even if you want to spend a middle round pick on a QB, is it more important to spend a 3rd-4th on a QB, than to spend it on the line? Remember, we don't have a 2nd round pick this year. We have much more pressing issues than QB; even if you think Campbell isn't the answer, both lines are in need of being addressed in the offseason much moreso than the QB position.

SkinsJock wrote:And to SkinsFreak's point - I think that we will not have Collins here next year - Campbell and Brennan will be here because these are the better QBs on our roster



I will further predict that Campbell will not be starting for this team in the 2010 season.

Curious, but why wouldn't Collins return next season?

JSPB22 wrote:The whole point of displaying those other QB's stats in the article, was to point out that you can't compare QB's numbers, though, which is what you continue to do. The author was saying that individuals take different lengths of time to come into there own, and Jason is still on the learning curve.

And the common theme which shows up across the board with good QB's is that IT DOES NOT TAKE ANY OF THEM 4 years to put up NFL quality amount of POINTS.

JSPB22 wrote: He has shown steady improvement each and every season, even if you refuse to acknowledge it. Now, whether or not we continue to give him time to get to his eventual plateau, or give up on the time already invested in him, and go with a young QB, who may or may not take years more to reach the same level. It's a crap shoot, but I, the coaches, and every observer close to the team, seem to think sticking with Campbell is the best direction to go. But Ray, you know better, right?

No he has not. And just saying he has doesn't make it true. The numbers don't lie, and I'm not making them up. They are want they are. Campbell's numbers in his first 7 games in 2006 were better than his 2007 numbers. And his numbers this year are lower still. And in his last 7 games this year his numbers are at an all time low. Here are the facts:

2006 - first 7 games starting - average 20.7 points per game

2007 - 12 games - average 19.08 points per game

2008 - 12 games - average 17.3 points per game

2008 - last 7 games starting- average 14.14 points per game

So if you look at production (points) which at the end of the day are the ONLY numbers that really mean anything, Campbell has not improved in the ONE area that matters....POINTS.

Contrary to your claim of steady improvement, the above shows a steady decline.

gibbs4president wrote:

SkinsJock wrote:And to SkinsFreak's point - I think that we will not have Collins here next year - Campbell and Brennan will be here because these are the better QBs on our roster

Curious, but why wouldn't Collins return next season?

no worries - because we will need 3 QBs and 2 of them will be Campbell and Brennan - there is a snowball's chance in hell that the 3rd will be Collins.

SkinsJock wrote:And to SkinsFreak's point - I think that we will not have Collins here next year - Campbell and Brennan will be here because these are the better QBs on our roster



I will further predict that Campbell will not be starting for this team in the 2010 season.

Never mind that Collins had the highest qb rating in the NFL last year and Campbell was a guy we had to make excuses for, or that Colt has no record at all-- it's obviously obvious that Colt and JC are much, much better than Collins. What are you going to believe-- the stats and your eyes, or your imagination?

gibbs4president wrote:

SkinsJock wrote:And to SkinsFreak's point - I think that we will not have Collins here next year - Campbell and Brennan will be here because these are the better QBs on our roster



I will further predict that Campbell will not be starting for this team in the 2010 season.

Curious, but why wouldn't Collins return next season?

Collins will be back.

crazyhorse1 wrote:

SkinsJock wrote:And to SkinsFreak's point - I think that we will not have Collins here next year - Campbell and Brennan will be here because these are the better QBs on our roster



I will further predict that Campbell will not be starting for this team in the 2010 season.

Never mind that Collins had the highest qb rating in the NFL last year and Campbell was a guy we had to make excuses for, or that Colt has no record at all-- it's obviously obvious that Colt and JC are much, much better than Collins. What are you going to believe-- the stats and your eyes, or your imagination?

Even if you believe that Collins is a much better quarterback than Campbell, you have to admit that being in Al Saunders's offensive system had a lot to do with his success. Not only is he not in that system now, but he's had to learn a completely new offense just like Campbell.

Collins performed well last year because he knew where to throw the ball and when to throw the ball at all times. He knew the offense much better than any QB on the team; that isn't the case now.

Why exactly would Collins be the better choice right now?