Official Post Game Discussion - Skins/Cowboys

[Cappster]

Our passing game seems to be vertically challenged and I am not talking about the height of our WR's. Our offense seems to be struggling with execution as in they seem kind of confused and I think that is contributing to our offensive struggles. I don't have anything bad to say about our D. They did their job, but they aren't good enough to overcome such a lackadaisical offensive performance. It is just going to take a little bit more time to push through the wall and put some big points up on the board.

[jmooney]

Our pass per play avg- 3.8

Clintons avg per run- 5.1

Yet CP only gets 15 attempts?

Remember back to the game in Dallas. One of the big criticizms against the Cowboys was this exact same scenario. hmmmmm.

Linebackers in the NFC east are too fast and tackle too well to expect that crap to work here, unless you run the hell out of the ball and get them to commit to play action, if you can't/don't run, play action is useless. It only worked twice last night.

The 2 best records in the NFL are run first offenses with blitzing defenses, hmmmmmm.

Now , when the hell are they going to figure out the defensive solution is simple, we already have the personnel. You wanna pressure QB's?
Move Landry back to SS
Put Horton at FS
Make Taylor an OLB (imagine bringing him and Carter off the same side)
this makes our run D and pass rush better and less predictable. I wanted
to mention this earlier in the season but, I didnt trust Horton enough at the time. Now I think hes more than up to the task and Landry's production has diminished since moving him back, I want that guys hat on every play.

Offense is a bit more complicated but, we do have some stop gap measures to take.

On 3rd downs, more shotgun
We dont run any "trips" formations to 'scrape" DB's off, change that.
More deep crossing routes to back the LB's up.
Stop putting our undersized WR's in jump ball situations on deep routes, throw the ball away from them and let them run to it, THAT has always been Santana's strength.

The rest of our offensive woes need to be addressed in the draft or off-season, primarily the line, straight up speed rushes are beating our tackles consistantly. If we are hitching our wagon to a QB that takes as long as JC does to get it out, we better get some absolute studs up there.
Jansen has become a liability
Samuels is starting to struggle more and more
Heyer is a back-up at best
Kendall is getting to old to be reliable

I hoped the last few games were a fluke, yesterday proved that the same issues keep showing up and are getting glaringly worse. Adjustments must be made to finish this season respectively. Major changes on offense must be addressed personnel wise this off-season.

The giants are looking like a modern NFL "dynasty" and we better make some moves to keep up or were gonna be fighting over wild-card spots for the forseeable future. You wanna fix homefield advantage? win some playoff games AT HOME!!! "If you build it, they will come"

[CanesSkins26]

it's NOT the WRs fault.

Yes it is. Our receivers are an embarrassment. We have one of, if not the worst, wide receiving groups in the NFL. Moss is by far the only starting caliber player that we have. ARE is the new 50/50 and couldn't break a tackle to save his life. He YAC is a joke. Thrash has no business being on the field. He simply can't get separation from the db's. Thomas does more to help the other team than he does to help us. Kelly is hurt. ey isn't being used down field and Zorn doesn't trust Fred Davis enough to use him.

Our wide receivers not named Moss have contributed for exactly two touchdowns this season. Thrash, as our number 3 receiver, has 7 catches and 69 yards on the season. Devin Thomas has 77 yards.

[crazyhorse1]

Why is it when we blitz we can't get to the quarterback? Yet when other teams blitz us, they have no problem getting to our quarterback? And don't say the obvious, our offense line sucks, because we have had alot of success running earlier this year.

The line in considerably below average in the NFL. It can't rush and almost never makes a tackle. JT is a huge bust. Watching him is painful. Grif is too old and G is only almost almost average. Montgomery is ok. Carter is only ok. The guys get beaten every game, but the defense is ok because of the quality of the DB's and LB's. Unfortunately, Washington is about through and Blades in too slow.

Sorry, but the offensive line does, in fact, such. They are a skilled, experienced bunch, and are still capable of playing at a high level for a number of games, as they have this year, but they've now run out of gas and can't block anyone. Further, other teams know that, and know that Campbell holds the ball too damn long. so rush us big time at every opportunity.

Notice, too, they fail most miserably at the end of drives when we're threatening to score. That's because they're winded, beat, tired and therefore bad after every nine plays or so without a break.

Zorn's giving Portis a rest at about the same time the line expires makes the situation even worse. If I were Zorn, I'd rest the lineman toward the end of drives and tell Portis to suck it up.

There are better time to rest Portis than when we have a chance for 7. That's when I'd get Jansen the hell out of there for a play a two. Next on the undependable list in scoring position is old man Pete. Rest him somewhere about midfield.

Anyway, my plan can't work any worse than Zorn's in this matter.

[crazyhorse1]

two points. devin thomas needs help, like return to basics help.

second point. CP needs more than 15 carries in a game. he had 20+ all the time during our winning first half of the season. remember when he got 120+ yards. seems like the good old days. last two games? 13 and 15 carries. nice. way to give up on the rushing attack zorn.

Devin needs to be traded-- I'd take a 6th rounder. JT and Alexander could maybe draw another 6th if bundled together. Then, we trade the two sixes for a three and draft someone three times as good as Jansen.

[andyjens89]

I love how 3 of our 4 losses are at home....

[HEROHAMO]

A couple of reasons why the Skins are losing.

Mainly the Passing game and Jason Campbell. The other major factor is no kind of pressure on the opposing teams QB.

Jason Campbell has come along way from last season but has stumbled the past few games. Our offensive pass protection has not been good either. Still Campbell holds on to the ball way too long and looks frustated alot. Never good when your Qb is frustated. His body language is sluggish and it rubs off on the whole team.

Our lack of a pass rush is really obvious. If not for our outstanding backers and secondary this defense would be toast.

The balance on offense has to return. Jason Campbell has to start taking more chances. He is playing it way too safe.

Campbell wake the Heck up!!! If you dont get your act together the season will be lost.

LIke it or not folks. This teams success depends on how far Jason Campbell will take us.

[CanesSkins26]

A couple of reasons why the Skins are losing.

Mainly the Passing game and Jason Campbell. The other major factor is no kind of pressure on the opposing teams QB.

Jason Campbell has come along way from last season but has stumbled the past few games. Our offensive pass protection has not been good either. Still Campbell holds on to the ball way too long and looks frustated alot. Never good when your Qb is frustated. His body language is sluggish and it rubs off on the whole team.

Our lack of a pass rush is really obvious. If not for our outstanding backers and secondary this defense would be toast.

The balance on offense has to return. Jason Campbell has to start taking more chances. He is playing it way too safe.

Campbell wake the Heck up!!! If you dont get your act together the season will be lost.

LIke it or not folks. This teams success depends on how far Jason Campbell will take us.

Campbell hasn't been great the last few weeks but no qb is going to do well behind our sorry excuse of an offensive line.

[HEROHAMO]

A couple of reasons why the Skins are losing.

Mainly the Passing game and Jason Campbell. The other major factor is no kind of pressure on the opposing teams QB.

Jason Campbell has come along way from last season but has stumbled the past few games. Our offensive pass protection has not been good either. Still Campbell holds on to the ball way too long and looks frustated alot. Never good when your Qb is frustated. His body language is sluggish and it rubs off on the whole team.

Our lack of a pass rush is really obvious. If not for our outstanding backers and secondary this defense would be toast.

The balance on offense has to return. Jason Campbell has to start taking more chances. He is playing it way too safe.

Campbell wake the Heck up!!! If you dont get your act together the season will be lost.

LIke it or not folks. This teams success depends on how far Jason Campbell will take us.

Campbell hasn't been great the last few weeks but no qb is going to do well behind our sorry excuse of an offensive line.

Campbell had plenty of oppurtunities. Also the Receivers dropped a couple passes as well.

Yes he was getting pressured but he still had time to throw.

[CanesSkins26]

A couple of reasons why the Skins are losing.

Mainly the Passing game and Jason Campbell. The other major factor is no kind of pressure on the opposing teams QB.

Jason Campbell has come along way from last season but has stumbled the past few games. Our offensive pass protection has not been good either. Still Campbell holds on to the ball way too long and looks frustated alot. Never good when your Qb is frustated. His body language is sluggish and it rubs off on the whole team.

Our lack of a pass rush is really obvious. If not for our outstanding backers and secondary this defense would be toast.

The balance on offense has to return. Jason Campbell has to start taking more chances. He is playing it way too safe.

Campbell wake the Heck up!!! If you dont get your act together the season will be lost.

LIke it or not folks. This teams success depends on how far Jason Campbell will take us.

Campbell hasn't been great the last few weeks but no qb is going to do well behind our sorry excuse of an offensive line.

Campbell had plenty of oppurtunities. Also the Receivers dropped a couple passes as well.

Yes he was getting pressured but he still had time to throw.

The offensive line has given up 10 sacks in the past two weeks. They have done an awful job.

[Deadskins]

I don't have anything bad to say about our D. They did their job

No they didn't. They let Barber run all over them. He averaged over 5 yards a carry. We lost this game in the trenches, on both sides of the ball.

[Chris Luva Luva]

I don't have anything bad to say about our D. They did their job

No they didn't. They let Barber run all over them. He averaged over 5 yards a carry. We lost this game in the trenches, on both sides of the ball.

14 points. They only scored 14 points. I don't care if he averaged 24 YPC if they can stop him from scoring.

Why did he average that much? Well maybe if the OFFENSE didn't tire out the defense by going 3&out and NOT sustaining drives and NOT putting up points.

Maybe if we had a lead our defense could attack more instead of having to play safe.

[Redskin in Canada]

Hey Chris, my man,

Chill out. It is a game. I do not mean a single game but the game of football in general. There is life before, during and after football.

We had low expectations for this season and the last two games have shown why. Please do not blame them. They did a great job for quite afew games that NOBODY expected us to win and they simply raised everybody's expectations, ours to begin with.

This is STILL a good team with a NEW head coach, and with a NEW pass offense. It is contending and there are some great individual stories this year.

Look at the positive. Forget about our new great expectations. Just enjoy the ride. Zorn and the guys get paid a zillion dollars to worry about the "technicalities". Just enjoy family and sport in that order.

Sincerely,

RiC

PS By the way, you can bring it on to BossHog with that FAILED FG attempt by our favourite fellow Canadian who has not been having his vitamins lately to kick long enough. Besides, BH is not around. We can abuse him in his absence.

[PulpExposure]

Now this conversation is devolving into how the vast majority of our team is terrible.

Zorn must be the greatest coach in history to have this team at 6-4 with such a bad team.

CUT EVERYONE!

[Deadskins]

I don't have anything bad to say about our D. They did their job

No they didn't. They let Barber run all over them. He averaged over 5 yards a carry. We lost this game in the trenches, on both sides of the ball.

14 points. They only scored 14 points. I don't care if he averaged 24 YPC if they can stop him from scoring.

Why did he average that much? Well maybe if the OFFENSE didn't tire out the defense by going 3&out and NOT sustaining drives and NOT putting up points.

Maybe if we had a lead our defense could attack more instead of having to play safe.

Sorry CLL, but I disagree. We scored on our first possession, and were ahead almost the entire game. Two picks, the first on a poorly thrown ball where Hall was beaten, saved the defense from giving up two more scores when Dallas got inside our 30. Barber ran for large chunks consistently throughout the game, not just in the 4th quarter when our guys were tired. I do agree that the offense stunk as well, based on poor line play on that side of the ball, too. I'll say it again: We lost this game in the trenches, on both sides of the ball.

[Redskin in Canada]

CUT EVERYONE!

Do you mean to say that they have not done so yet??? Are they still around?

I thought we had fired the all and purchased the Titans. What a disappointment.

[gibbs4president]

I don't have anything bad to say about our D. They did their job

No they didn't. They let Barber run all over them. He averaged over 5 yards a carry. We lost this game in the trenches, on both sides of the ball.

14 points. They only scored 14 points. I don't care if he averaged 24 YPC if they can stop him from scoring.

Why did he average that much? Well maybe if the OFFENSE didn't tire out the defense by going 3&out and NOT sustaining drives and NOT putting up points.

Maybe if we had a lead our defense could attack more instead of having to play safe.

Sorry CLL, but I disagree. We scored on our first possession, and were ahead almost the entire game. Two picks, the first on a poorly thrown ball where Hall was beaten, saved the defense from giving up two more scores when Dallas got inside our 30. Barber ran for large chunks consistently throughout the game, not just in the 4th quarter when our guys were tired. I do agree that the offense stunk as well, based on poor line play on that side of the ball, too. I'll say it again: We lost this game in the trenches, on both sides of the ball.

I agree both the offensive and defensive lines struggled, but it's not like the offense was going against the Steelers' defense again. This was a Cowboys' defense that gives up about 23 points per game. Did Dallas play hard and need the win? Sure. But 10 points isn't going to get it done against just about any team in the NFL.

[Chris Luva Luva]

Sorry CLL, but I disagree. We scored on our first possession, and were ahead almost the entire game. Two picks, the first on a poorly thrown ball where Hall was beaten, saved the defense from giving up two more scores when Dallas got inside our 30. Barber ran for large chunks consistently throughout the game, not just in the 4th quarter when our guys were tired. I do agree that the offense stunk as well, based on poor line play on that side of the ball, too. I'll say it again: We lost this game in the trenches, on both sides of the ball.

I had a long elaborate post but I deleted it. Let me ask you one question.

If our offense score 0 points, would you still find a way to blame it on the defense?

IMO points when games. Not yards, broken tackles, YPC, YAC... All of that is cute and cuddly but they don't win games. Points win games. Our offense cannot score points. Our team will lose because we can't score points.

[Cappster]

Sorry CLL, but I disagree. We scored on our first possession, and were ahead almost the entire game. Two picks, the first on a poorly thrown ball where Hall was beaten, saved the defense from giving up two more scores when Dallas got inside our 30. Barber ran for large chunks consistently throughout the game, not just in the 4th quarter when our guys were tired. I do agree that the offense stunk as well, based on poor line play on that side of the ball, too. I'll say it again: We lost this game in the trenches, on both sides of the ball.

I had a long elaborate post but I deleted it. Let me ask you one question.

If our offense score 0 points, would you still find a way to blame it on the defense?

IMO points when games. Not yards, broken tackles, YPC, YAC... All of that is cute and cuddly but they don't win games. Points win games. Our offense cannot score points. Our team will lose because we can't score points.

An average of 8pts a game over the last two is dismal at best for points scored. It is just not right to expect our D to not give up 9pts to an opponent. The offense needs to execute specifically in the passing game.

[Chris Luva Luva]

An average of 8pts a game over the last two is dismal at best for points scored. It is just not right to expect our D to not give up 9pts to an opponent. The offense needs to execute specifically in the passing game.

And that's all I'm saying. I refuse to blame the defense for anything when they held this team to 14 points. Especially with all the fire power they have. U want them to hold one of the best RB's in the league to under 5YPC and shut out TO, Roy Williams and Witten!?!? Thats freaking nuts!

[Deadskins]

Sorry CLL, but I disagree. We scored on our first possession, and were ahead almost the entire game. Two picks, the first on a poorly thrown ball where Hall was beaten, saved the defense from giving up two more scores when Dallas got inside our 30. Barber ran for large chunks consistently throughout the game, not just in the 4th quarter when our guys were tired. I do agree that the offense stunk as well, based on poor line play on that side of the ball, too. I'll say it again: We lost this game in the trenches, on both sides of the ball.

I had a long elaborate post but I deleted it. Let me ask you one question.

If our offense score 0 points, would you still find a way to blame it on the defense?

IMO points when games. Not yards, broken tackles, YPC, YAC... All of that is cute and cuddly but they don't win games. Points win games. Our offense cannot score points. Our team will lose because we can't score points.

I'm not blaming the defense for the loss. The offensive output after the first drive was just that; offensive. Yes the D only gave up 14 points, but that total was artificially lowered by the two INT's, one of which was all Romo (the other was a great defensive play). I'm just saying it's a team sport, and blame for the loss can be spread around.

[chiefhog44]

Points win games.

Defense wins championships.

Listen, maybe I'm just speaking for myself, but we hear you when you say that we need more points. I totally agree. I think we are stuggling with our pass offense, and it comes mainly from poor pass blocking.

I (for one) am not blaming anything on the defense. Our linebackers are above average, our DB's are some of the best in the game. Our d-line can usually stop the run very well. I would like to have a better pass rush. That's it. If you think we don't need it, I would argue that without one, we will not win one playoff game, period. We are very similar to the Steelers in that our Offense is very mediocre and our defense is very stout. The difference is the play at the d-line, and that's why they will make the playoffs and probably have a chance at a super bowl, and we will not.

[VetSkinsFan]

If you look at the dynasties, it's not their defense you remember, it's their offense. Defenses don't win championships IMO. Who were the cornerbacks on the 49ers when Montana, Craig, Rice were there?

[SkinsFreak]

I'll say it again: We lost this game in the trenches, on both sides of the ball.

I absolutely agree, JSPB22.

The o-line has been just terrible in pass protection. And as we all know... well, most of us know, it all starts up front. We really need some youth and better talent up front.

Most have been scratching their heads as to why our d-line doesn't get many sacks and is below average getting pressure on opposing QB's. I think this explains quite a bit. It has to do with scheme...

Since assistant coach Greg Blache's arrival five years ago, the Washington Redskins have had a mostly strong defense whose one weakness has been its pass rush. It's true again this season with the Redskins fourth overall in total defense but tied for 27th in sacks with 15.

The reason for the discrepancy can partly be found in the strategic approach favored by Blache, the former defensive line coach who is now coordinator. Blache espouses stopping the run above all else, with his linemen free to fire on the snap and attack upfield generally only in nickel situations. Blache is willing to sacrifice pressure for run awareness, a formula that has been quite successful and limited Dallas to just two touchdowns Sunday night.

"You look at a team like Indy, and they play pass first and then react to the run," defensive tackle Anthony Montgomery said. "Here, when we come off [the snap] a big part of our job is to keep the offensive linemen from getting to our linebackers, so you've got to flatten the linemen out and get your hands on them and it kind of slows you down from just going.


"It's harder to do, and it definitely would be easier if we were just able to get upfield and pass rush the whole time, but that's also why Indy can't stop the run, because their line is caught upfield and their linemen are on your linebackers and if they miss it's a big run. But we've got to do a better job of converting from run to pass. It's tough to do, but we've got to do it."

What to do?

With cornerback Shawn Springs healthy and willing to play free safety, players believe safety LaRon Landry, the best athlete on the defense, warrants more snaps around the line of scrimmage, acting as the fifth pass rusher. Landry has spent much of the season in a deep position with few other proven coverage options at free safety.

And some players wonder if at some point Blache must call a few more all-out blitzes on certain third downs, gambling for a big play with the offense seemingly incapable of providing a sizable lead or scoring more than a touchdown or two.

"I'd always like to get more pressure on the quarterback," Blache said after the loss to Dallas. "We had some opportunities to get there, but we couldn't take advantage of it."

Defying Blache and going outside the scheme to make a play, however, is not an option, and the time to bolster the roster has passed.

"Coach G.B. has his philosophy, and that's what we do," defensive tackle Lorenzo Alexander said. "If you try to break around that and get to freelancing, you won't be here too long."

So, our d-line problems can't entirely be blamed on a lack of talent. We are very good at stopping the run. But as this article points out, emphasis on stopping the run with less emphasis on rushing the passer is by design. Perhaps Blache needs to re-evaluate his schemes.

[SkinsJock]

This needs to be narrowed down to championships and giving your team the best chance to win the game.

In the past I think it has been true that for the most part defense wins championships - a better defense keeps giving the offense more opportunities.

But when you are game planning to win a game you really need to be able to run whenever you want to and you have to be able to stop the other team from running the ball when they want to - this is the most proven formula for success - there are anomalies, but this is the best way to give your team the best chance to win.

If a team is just really good at passing but not really very good at running, IMO that team will not be successful UNLESS they have a fantastic defense.

This offseason we need to make both offensive and defensive lines better BUT we need defensive players that can stop the runs up the middle AND on the edges more than we need pass rushers. IF they can pressure the QB well and good but the defensive backs will have a field day if it is always 3rd and long.



If you really look at last week's game, we did not run the ball enough and we did not stop them from running when we had to.

Manning is not that good a QB that he is going to continually make 3rd and long. The critical pass plays the giants made were not because he can pass (he's not that good) but primarily IMO, because they could run.


Take a look at the current standings for the NFC:
Passing offense:
Saints
Cardinals
eagles
Bucs
cowboys
Packers
Falcons
Bears
49ers
giants

Rushing offense:
giants
Falcons
Vikings
Redskins
Panthers
cowboys
Bucs
49ers
Seahawks
Packers

Rushing defense:
Vikings
Redskins
Bears
Cards
giants
eagles
Bucs
cowboys
49ers
Panthers


Now I know that when a team is good across the board their passing numbers are normally not good because they do not throw it much but if a team can run and can stop the run, especially when the other team wants to eat up the clock.

IF you have a good run defense it will normally translate into more chance for success.

Portis and the other backs did not get the carries they should have. YES the line has to block but there is a reason that we have a very good run game after 10 games. In this game, we did what a lot of team's do - we went to a passing game - we lost.