^^^^ exactamundo - seems like there are a lot of people that want to make this a lot more complicated than it is - the good QB can play in most offenses the very good QB can play in any offense - the co-ordinators are going to make sure that whatever plays they use utilizes the talents of the players. duh.
the really great QB knows not only what the defense is doing he knows which play is going to work best given that defense BEFORE he gets the ball in his hands Making it happen is what it is all about. Some have it and some don't.
These definitive descriptions of passing offenses are really just fans trying to compatmentalize the game.
We will see whatever 'offense' Zorn thinks suits Campbell and Portis strengths
Until recently, Snyder & Allen have made a lot of really bad decisions - nobody with any sense believes this franchise will get better under their guidance Snyder's W/L record = 45% (80-96) - Snyder/Allen = 41% (59-84-1)
SkinsJock wrote:Sorry El Mexican, but I think you are missing the fact that while this offense can be called a WCO I would be very surprised if what we are going to see is a basic WCO (if there is such a thing). The offense that Zorn will be using will be tailored to suit the players we have and not a "system" that he is confident will succeed because he has used it before. To me that is a big difference.
Campbell is very lucky in my opinion to have Zorn not only as his coach but also the guy that will be closely watching and guiding him this off-season. We will have a WCO offense but not one that is designed around anything other than the players who are here.
Exactly. To me, a good coach tailors his system to fit the players. Trying to force a player to fit your system hardly ever works.
I personally think JC was really uncomfortable in Al Saunders' offense. And remember, you keep bringing up that Joe Gibbs drafted JC to play in Gibbs' offense. That's great and all, but he never played in Gibbs' offense; he played in Saunders'.
fleetus wrote:Here's a quote from JC shortly after he was drafted:
"[Gibbs] showed me his offense on the board and I was really surprised by the similarities they had with Auburn's offense we ran this year," Campbell said in a conference call. "The only difference at Auburn is we use words and they use a number system, and a number system is a lot easier for a quarterback."
So I will say it again, all the talk about systems and familiarity is overplayed because systems are all very versatile these days AND the Redskins were already running a system similar to the supposed WCO they were using at Auburn. Much ado about nothing.
Sorry, Fleetus.
You can paint anyway you want but until I see JC running a WCO in the pros, every comparison to college ball is of little help.
Again, you guys are pointing out that JC´s slow reads are a symptom of Gibbs´system. Maybe. In reality I think Gibbs drafted JC because he the necessary weapons to be productive in HIS system, not a WCO we are accostumed to seeing in today´s NFL.
I really hope that I´m wrong on this one. Only time will tell and JC smarts will surely help (aced the Wonderlic?)
I've never said JC would be more OR less successful in the WCO. I've been saying the WCO is a label not a real NFL offense. WCO was a real NFL offense back when Maddona was a virgin WCO is now a label that gets tossed around loosely by fans and media. Every QB takes 3, 5 and 7 step drops. Every offense runs short timing slants as well as deep crossing , outs and fly routes. Defenses all know how to defend the 1982 WCO.
So don't lump me in with "you guys" without commenting on something I actually said. JC may not be successful in Zorn's offense, BUT it won't have S#!t to do with WCO. It will have to do with whether Zorn is as innovative as they say he is and whether JC can CONTINUE to develop. I think he will personally and I think Zorn has some tricks up his sleeve (and they won't have anything to do with Bill Walsh or Joe Montana.)
I agree with the sentiments of many other posters here. The big benefit isn't whether we are WCO or not, it is about creating a gameplan based on the talent levels of our players. Playing a game that exhibits their strengths.
The other thing to keep in mnd is how many dropped passes there were last year. Campbell's accuracy would've been a lot higher were it not for all of the drops we had by our recievers. How many times did the ball hit them in the hands and bounce off? Campbell was accurate, but the ball was dropped. Some were thrown pefectly, and just mishandled. Others might have been thrown a little too hard, but the rule for recievers has always been, if it hits you in the hands, you are supposed to catch it.
Campbell seemed to be good at the deep fade, and the short dump-off. If we can improve his mid-range passing we'll be great.
Campbell also did well in the "no-huddle" offense. This means he is good at calling his own plays at the line, and reading defenses. If Zorn let's him be more creative, I think we'll see a big jump in offensive production.
Gibbs' offenses relied heavily on a lot of pre-snap motion. This was intended to "fool" or "confuse" the defense, but didn't really seem to confuse anyone but ourselves. If we eliminate a lot of that, get quickly to the line, give Jason a chance (i.e. time) to read, and audible if necessary, he's going to be huge (at least IMO).
I'm not going to hold my breath on a playoff berth just yet, but there are certainly plenty of reasons to be positive right now.
Bob 0119 wrote:I agree with the sentiments of many other posters here. The big benefit isn't whether we are WCO or not, it is about creating a gameplan based on the talent levels of our players. Playing a game that exhibits their strengths.
The other thing to keep in mnd is how many dropped passes there were last year. Campbell's accuracy would've been a lot higher were it not for all of the drops we had by our recievers. How many times did the ball hit them in the hands and bounce off? Campbell was accurate, but the ball was dropped. Some were thrown pefectly, and just mishandled. Others might have been thrown a little too hard, but the rule for recievers has always been, if it hits you in the hands, you are supposed to catch it.
Campbell seemed to be good at the deep fade, and the short dump-off. If we can improve his mid-range passing we'll be great.
Campbell also did well in the "no-huddle" offense. This means he is good at calling his own plays at the line, and reading defenses. If Zorn let's him be more creative, I think we'll see a big jump in offensive production.
Gibbs' offenses relied heavily on a lot of pre-snap motion. This was intended to "fool" or "confuse" the defense, but didn't really seem to confuse anyone but ourselves. If we eliminate a lot of that, get quickly to the line, give Jason a chance (i.e. time) to read, and audible if necessary, he's going to be huge (at least IMO).
I'm not going to hold my breath on a playoff berth just yet, but there are certainly plenty of reasons to be positive right now.
I believe that the strength of JC's arm was a lot more for the receivers to adjust to than most people realize. There were passes dropped that weren't normally dropped and i have a hard time believing that the speed of the ball didn't have an affect. I do believe that JC is in good hands with Zorn. I believe that next year will be a great year for the 'skins and this yeare is a stepping stone to next year. Regardless, I'll be here cheering for the highs and frustrated about the lows as I've been for 25+ years!!
...any given Sunday....
RIP #21 Sean Taylor. You will be loved and adored by Redskins fans forever!!!!!
GSPODS:
The National Anthem sucks.
What a useless piece of propagandist rhetoric that is.
Bob 0119 wrote:I agree with the sentiments of many other posters here. The big benefit isn't whether we are WCO or not, it is about creating a gameplan based on the talent levels of our players. Playing a game that exhibits their strengths.
The other thing to keep in mnd is how many dropped passes there were last year. Campbell's accuracy would've been a lot higher were it not for all of the drops we had by our recievers. How many times did the ball hit them in the hands and bounce off? Campbell was accurate, but the ball was dropped. Some were thrown pefectly, and just mishandled. Others might have been thrown a little too hard, but the rule for recievers has always been, if it hits you in the hands, you are supposed to catch it.
Campbell seemed to be good at the deep fade, and the short dump-off. If we can improve his mid-range passing we'll be great.
Campbell also did well in the "no-huddle" offense. This means he is good at calling his own plays at the line, and reading defenses. If Zorn let's him be more creative, I think we'll see a big jump in offensive production.
Gibbs' offenses relied heavily on a lot of pre-snap motion. This was intended to "fool" or "confuse" the defense, but didn't really seem to confuse anyone but ourselves. If we eliminate a lot of that, get quickly to the line, give Jason a chance (i.e. time) to read, and audible if necessary, he's going to be huge (at least IMO).
I'm not going to hold my breath on a playoff berth just yet, but there are certainly plenty of reasons to be positive right now.
I believe that the strength of JC's arm was a lot more for the receivers to adjust to than most people realize. There were passes dropped that weren't normally dropped and i have a hard time believing that the speed of the ball didn't have an affect. I do believe that JC is in good hands with Zorn. I believe that next year will be a great year for the 'skins and this yeare is a stepping stone to next year. Regardless, I'll be here cheering for the highs and frustrated about the lows as I've been for 25+ years!!
I agree with you that adjusting to JC was part of the drops problem, but there were plenty of dropped deep passes as well and arm strength wouldn't really be a factor there. It's hard to say what was wrong with Moss last season, perhaps the injuries affected him or maybe he just simply had a bad season. But besides Moss, I think the drops were largely due to our lack of talent at wide receiver.
Recievers in Green Bay complained for years about catching a pass thrown by Farve. They said it felt like he was trying to break their fingers off. They just had to adjust. Again, it boils down to being the recievers' problem. If the ball is accurate, it's their job to haul it in.
I"m not laying all the blame on JC by far, I just think that it's not usually considered. If Moss is going across and the ball is high and behind, it's that much more difficult to catch a JC pass as opposed toa Collins loft.
...any given Sunday....
RIP #21 Sean Taylor. You will be loved and adored by Redskins fans forever!!!!!
GSPODS:
The National Anthem sucks.
What a useless piece of propagandist rhetoric that is.
VetSkinsFan wrote:I"m not laying all the blame on JC by far, I just think that it's not usually considered. If Moss is going across and the ball is high and behind, it's that much more difficult to catch a JC pass as opposed toa Collins loft.
Don't forget, if it easier for our receivers to catch, then it is also easier for the defense to catch. It takes some zip on the ball to keep DB's and LB's from having the time to converge on the play and either get their hands on the pass or hit the receiver before he has secured the ball. Velocity is necessary in most cases. Receivers that can't catch hard throws need to play special teams or retire.
It also take a little LESS velocity in some instances, which JC doesn't really have at times, to throw it OVER short coverage. I've seen numerous passes that would have been completions that if they had just that little bit of arc that JC usually doesn't have to be moving the chains. I don't think that every ball has to have maximum velocity is what I'm stating and that's pretty much what JC has if it's not a fade to the back corner of the end zone.
In essence, we're arguing pennies to the national debt here. There's a time and place for maximum velocity and there's also a time and place for a bit of touch.....
...any given Sunday....
RIP #21 Sean Taylor. You will be loved and adored by Redskins fans forever!!!!!
GSPODS:
The National Anthem sucks.
What a useless piece of propagandist rhetoric that is.
I watched a show about Walsh and his WCO on the NFLN. They showed clips of Walsh telling how he had to teach Montana how to have the perfact touch on the ball. Montana did not have a big arm anyway, but he still didn't have good touch, untill Walsh tought him.
I think Zorn will work on this with JC. Zorn is suppose to be a "great QB coach" so, I would think a great QB coach would teach that. The only worries here is if Zorn will have the time.
VetSkinsFan wrote:It also take a little LESS velocity in some instances, which JC doesn't really have at times, to throw it OVER short coverage. I've seen numerous passes that would have been completions that if they had just that little bit of arc that JC usually doesn't have to be moving the chains. I don't think that every ball has to have maximum velocity is what I'm stating and that's pretty much what JC has if it's not a fade to the back corner of the end zone.
In essence, we're arguing pennies to the national debt here. There's a time and place for maximum velocity and there's also a time and place for a bit of touch.....
It took Elway a few years to learn this also. I remember him throwing passes to his RBs in the flat at about 5000 miles per hour for his first couple of years.
VetSkinsFan wrote:It also take a little LESS velocity in some instances, which JC doesn't really have at times, to throw it OVER short coverage. I've seen numerous passes that would have been completions that if they had just that little bit of arc that JC usually doesn't have to be moving the chains. I don't think that every ball has to have maximum velocity is what I'm stating and that's pretty much what JC has if it's not a fade to the back corner of the end zone.
In essence, we're arguing pennies to the national debt here. There's a time and place for maximum velocity and there's also a time and place for a bit of touch.....
It's funny that this discussion has gone this route because, if someone asked me to describe JC's best passing skill, I would say his fine accuracy and touch on that deep fade route. ...and here some people are trying to say he has no touch! Go figure. I guess we all watch the same games and see totally different things.
VetSkinsFan wrote:It also take a little LESS velocity in some instances, which JC doesn't really have at times, to throw it OVER short coverage. I've seen numerous passes that would have been completions that if they had just that little bit of arc that JC usually doesn't have to be moving the chains. I don't think that every ball has to have maximum velocity is what I'm stating and that's pretty much what JC has if it's not a fade to the back corner of the end zone.
In essence, we're arguing pennies to the national debt here. There's a time and place for maximum velocity and there's also a time and place for a bit of touch.....
It's funny that this discussion has gone this route because, if someone asked me to describe JC's best passing skill, I would say his fine accuracy and touch on that deep fade route. ...and here some people are trying to say he has no touch! Go figure. I guess we all watch the same games and see totally different things.
A lot more passes require touch than the deep fade. Hitting the RB in the flat for instance is one that requires it, as previously noted with Elway.
...any given Sunday....
RIP #21 Sean Taylor. You will be loved and adored by Redskins fans forever!!!!!
GSPODS:
The National Anthem sucks.
What a useless piece of propagandist rhetoric that is.
VetSkinsFan wrote:A lot more passes require touch than the deep fade. Hitting the RB in the flat for instance is one that requires it, as previously noted with Elway.
Yeah, that point is obvious. i just don't see Campbell as having a lack of touch on short or deep passes. I think he is young and lacks polish in many facets, like every young QB does. But would never describe his performance last season as having a lack of touch.
VetSkinsFan wrote:A lot more passes require touch than the deep fade. Hitting the RB in the flat for instance is one that requires it, as previously noted with Elway.
Yeah, that point is obvious. i just don't see Campbell as having a lack of touch on short or deep passes. I think he is young and lacks polish in many facets, like every young QB does. But would never describe his performance last season as having a lack of touch.
<sigh> nitpick as you will, he does have passes that don't need to be thrown max velocity. I'll leave it at that and you can nitpick it until you're blue in the face.
...any given Sunday....
RIP #21 Sean Taylor. You will be loved and adored by Redskins fans forever!!!!!
GSPODS:
The National Anthem sucks.
What a useless piece of propagandist rhetoric that is.
Making it happen is what it is all about. Some have it and some don't.
strengths
