The-Hogs.net - Washington Football Discussion, Redskins to Commanders Era

Dont forget that if we make the championship game or superbowl then we get a really low 1st round draft in 2006

BringThePain! wrote:Besides Stephan Davis, we haven't drafted anything good in the 4th round in decades... if that helps sooth the disarray..

I hate this argument even though you were being facetious. Giving up hard earned picks on the basis that we suck at utilizing those picks is a poor argument. I really hope another deal (to garner more picks) was in the works when they struck this trade. I trust in Joe and will withhold criticism until I see the outcome of the draft. But, there is that niggling feeling that Dan is in the backround saying, "C'mon Joe, live dangerously, let's make a splash!".

When will the Redskins learn to stop trading away picks. We traded a pick for Coles. We traded a pick for Brunell. How did those work out for us?? We threw in an extra pick in the Portis trade. I love Portis but there was no need to throw in that pick. Now we trade 3 picks for a low first round pick??? Makes absolutely no sense. Consider this hypo: we draft Pac-man at #9 and then Heath Miller at #25. In that scenario we drafted a 3rd, a 4th, and 1st (likely betwenn #5-15) for a TE. Can anyone honestly think that that is a smart move??? Also people are talking about how we are a team built for success now. Oh really?? We have a qb in Ramsey that is going to be opening the season starting for Gibbs for the first time. We have questions still on the o-line with Dockery, no tight ends to speak of, a whole at linebacker, a whole at corner, and no punt return or kick off retrn ability. I would think that people would fianlly have learned from teams like Philly and New England abotu building through the draft. Instead we seem all too happy to trade picks and not get equal value in return.

I agree SkinsCanes, it is getting frustrating the way the Skins seem to be using draft picks like revolving credit. I wonder if Shanahan called up Redskins park to say "we here in Denver are now offering a program for those with a bad draft pick history. For a one-time low,low offer we'll give you draft picks now on credit. Simply pay us back in easy to manage installments..."

I really hope Joe has a master plan and there are more trades to follow.

Bad Draft Pick History? ... maybe bad Free-Agent Pick History... but I wouldn't say bad draft pick history... sure we've had some complete busts... but none since Snyder has been here... Gardner is about as close as we've come to a bust recently....

Consider this hypo: we draft Pac-man at #9 and then Heath Miller at #25. In that scenario we drafted a 3rd, a 4th, and 1st (likely betwenn #5-15) for a TE. Can anyone honestly think that that is a smart move???

Why not? Winslow was drafted 6th last year, Gonzalez was 13th overall, Shockey was 14th overall... it's not unheard of....

if the guy we take at #25 turns out to be awesome for the team... it's not going to matter about the silly 3rd and 4th we gave up for him....

I hate this argument even though you were being facetious. Giving up hard earned picks on the basis that we suck at utilizing those picks is a poor argument. I really hope another deal (to garner more picks) was in the works when they struck this trade. I trust in Joe and will withhold criticism until I see the outcome of the draft. But, there is that niggling feeling that Dan is in the backround saying, "C'mon Joe, live dangerously, let's make a splash!".

Hard earned? We get a fourth every year no matter whether we suck or win the big game.... and 20+ years of not very good 4th round picks does not mean it's poor utilization of those picks... it's that it's hard to find quality players anywhere after the second round... as more and more picks go by.... it's more of a crap shoot of who can succeed in the NFL.. and who can't.....

wow, what else will the three headed monster (Vinny, Danny, Joe) bring us. What a horrendous trade. Our pick in next years draft will certainly be higher than 25th. If we trade up to get Edwards that means we traded away 5 picks for 1. That is even worse than the ricky williams deal. We gave up two firsts and essentially our entire draft. And now sports talk 980 is saying we are potentially going for jason campbell the QB. We have major needs and QB is the one we are concerned about? Only the skins, only the skins

terpskins wrote:That is even worse than the ricky williams deal. We gave up two firsts and essentially our entire draft.

Huh? We received 2 first rounders (one in that draft and the Saints 1st the subsequent year) and the entire draft of the Saints that year...not the other way around. Then we traded the first we received and the rest of the picks to move up to get Champ Bailey. So, basically that year, we traded our #5 pick and ended up with Champ and a first rounder the following year. If I recall correctly.

Bring the Pain -You seem to focus on specific phrases, take them out of context and I'm really not seeing your point. "Hard earned draft picks" as a phrase doesn't really have much to do with the idea that draft picks are extremely important if you want to contend regularly in the NFL. Are you arguing that draft picks aren't all that valuable? Or are you saying lower round draft picks (like the ones used to get Joe Jacoby, Monte Coleman, Stephen Davis, Tom Brady, Zach Thomas, Terell Davis etc.) are not valuable? Or are you saying because the Redskins haven't picked many good players in lower rounds we should just give up on those draft picks? If that's your opinion, fine, everyone has one.

Whether they are "hard earned" or not, draft picks are what seperate the men from the boys when it comes to NFL GM's. I think the good GM's guard their picks religously, try to pick up extra picks every chance they get and they make their living out-scouting teams like the Redskins. Many good NFL free agents ask for large sums of money. Furthermore, many of the ones who go shopping for a new contract at every opportunity don't really seem to be all that loyal. Usually if they were really worth keeping, their previoius team would have done so. The Skins come along, like a college student who waited until the night before the test to cram, and start throwing money around and giving away draft picks like Halloween treats to get the "next big star player" who is going to bail them out this year. IT DOES NOT WORK, in my opinion.

fleetus wrote:Are you arguing that draft picks aren't all that valuable? Or are you saying lower round draft picks (like the ones used to get Joe Jacoby, Monte Coleman, Stephen Davis, Tom Brady, Zach Thomas, Terell Davis etc.) are not valuable? Or are you saying because the Redskins haven't picked many good players in lower rounds we should just give up on those draft picks?

For every one good player you can name that became a superstar in those later rounds... I can name 20 that flopped... the draft is a crap shoot.... a team that has 15 draft picks doesn't mean they're going to field a better draft than a team that has 5.... it's all about increasing your chances of landing a good player... and your chances increase if you get these players in the 1rst or 2nd rounds...

If we gave up a second, or gave up all our picks in one year... then I could see the gripe... but we didn't lose any picks this year in that trade and we lost 2 next year, 1 of them in the 4th which is more or less insignificant in my opinion....

As for the "Hard Earned" thing... you made the statement, if you don't like the reaction you get from it, don't make it... picks are given, not earned...

Just trying to get you off the semantics and say something of substance. You did, thank you.

fleetus wrote:Just trying to get you off the semantics and say something of substance. You did, thank you.

I said it in the first post too, sometimes people just need to be told twice..

the thing is, this arguement is pointless..... every single person on this earth has their own opinion, but when it comes to a decision...only one of those opinions matters, or maybe two (snyder, gibbs)..... let them wheel and deal, last time I checked gibbs' has more super bowls than we all do combined.... lets just get behind the skins, support their trades and run the ball with clinton portis. we should be alright. I'll agree that some moves should be questioned, but as far as a 25th pick compared to a first round pick next year.... honestly id take it, because who knows when the next draft position will allow us the chance to get one of the two best WR's in the country... it's been a while since the skins had a REAL breakout reciever...but its what we need. and we aint getting it in the 3rd round this year, and we dont know if we could next year.... Gibbs' knows what he's doing, I expect a major trade soon, somethings not right about the announcement of jason campbell, theres no way hes a real factor, i say trade #25 for a veteran CB, trade sean taylor and 9 to someone in the top 6 and then get williams or braylon.

Hard earned? We get a fourth every year no matter whether we suck or win the big game.... and 20+ years of not very good 4th round picks does not mean it's poor utilization of those picks... it's that it's hard to find quality players anywhere after the second round... as more and more picks go by.... it's more of a crap shoot of who can succeed in the NFL.. and who can't

2003 4th rounders - Dominick Davis, Onterrio Smith, Quentin Griffith, Lee Suggs, Asante Samuel

2002 4th rounders - Alex Brown, David Thornton, David Garrard, Randy McMichael, Rohan Davey, Najeh Davenport

2001 - Anthony Henry, Rudi Johnson, Orlando Huff, Calos Polk, Justin McCareins, Ryan Diem, Correll Buckhalter, Ed Hartwell

These aren't stars like Deion Sanders, Laverneous Coles, Chad Morten, Randy Thomas and Clinton Portis but they are the players that round out the 53 man rosters in their rookie years and grow into starters without taking up all the cap space. The difference between teams like the Patriots and Eagles and teams like the Redskins is their ability to fill a roster with cheaper, quality players through the draft and occasionally develop a star. Then if need be they can go get the missing piece, like Cory Dillon or Terell Owens.

great.... what about the other 25 players in those rounds? (enter my point)

And again... if your gonna put Chad Morton in the same sentance as Star... you're going to get a negative reaction from people... just my

BringThePain! wrote:great.... what about the other 25 players in those rounds? (enter my point)

And again... if your gonna put Chad Morton in the same sentance as Star... you're going to get a negative reaction from people... just my

Chad Morton is an average return man. He has been replaced by fresher, more DECISIVE legs. He no longer has a defined role on this team as Thrash has done just as good as he has.

We all have OUR opinion and I enjoy reading your opinions but after listening to Gibbs talk about the Grading system for current and future draft picks, it seems like the latest trade can be justified. Unless we have a better "grading system" maybe WE should sit down, shut up and watch. [/u]

Chris Luva Luva wrote:

BringThePain! wrote:great.... what about the other 25 players in those rounds? (enter my point)

And again... if your gonna put Chad Morton in the same sentance as Star... you're going to get a negative reaction from people... just my

Chad Morton is an average return man. He has been replaced by fresher, more DECISIVE legs. He no longer has a defined role on this team as Thrash has done just as good as he has.

Lets not forget my man Antonio Brown...he's going to be a beast if he is given the chance.

hatsOFF2gibbs wrote:

Chris Luva Luva wrote:

BringThePain! wrote:great.... what about the other 25 players in those rounds? (enter my point)

And again... if your gonna put Chad Morton in the same sentance as Star... you're going to get a negative reaction from people... just my

Chad Morton is an average return man. He has been replaced by fresher, more DECISIVE legs. He no longer has a defined role on this team as Thrash has done just as good as he has.

Lets not forget my man Antonio Brown...he's going to be a beast if he is given the chance.

I didnt mention him because I couldn't remeber his name. I agree 100% We dont need Morton anymore except maybe kick off's. Really we could just use Thrash and Brown for kickoffs and Brown for punt returns. Brown made a significant impact in his short time here. Morton has done nothing spectacular and nothing worth remebering on a consistent basis.

He's not a bad guy, or a horrible guy, but why keep him if he's not needed? Why keep the guys who we dont need and let the guys we need go?

There you go getting hung up on words and missing the point entirely. The Chad Morten thing was toungue in cheek. Didn't you notice that list of players I gave were all the free agents we've recently frittered away our draft picks on? I'm sure I am missing some and can't remember if we actually gave a pick for Thomas but you see the point. Morten sucks and we gave up a draft pick for him too. Now he sits on our roster eating up way too much cap space for an AVERAGE at best return man. Meanwhile, Antonio Brown, who you were just complimenting, was not even taken in any of the 7 rounds in the draft. Just another example of lower-valued players developing into roles and with a lower salary.

Philadelphia has 13 picks in this years draft. They don't have any glaring needs like the Redskins do but they have 13 picks that they use to trade up and down to get the specific players they like the most. Then they have the luxury of depth at every position. In rounds 3-7 of the past few drafts they've selected their:

Starting RB
3rd best WR
3rd best DE
Starting CB
3rd best Safety
starting kick returner
most of their special temas and line depth

Furthermore, they traded A.J. Feeley (a 5th round pick) to the Dolphins for this years HIGH 2nd Round pick (#35).

Bring the pain, I'm just saying draft picks are the way to go and that's why the Patriots and Eagles are deep into the playoffs every year. They lose players to free agency every year and they just reload. They're not in cap trouble. Here we sit, tight up against the cap every year. Giving away the picks for higher priced options every year. And wondering why we haven't been to the playoffs in forever! I love Gibbs. He's my favorite coach regardless of sport, EVER. But even he needed help from Beathard back when. He's not getting the same kind of personnel help now and I THINK IT'S OBVIOUS.

Chad morton is a non factor i would definetly rather have Brown returning kicks. Or Betts!...(Sunday night Eagles run to start the game.)

fleetus wrote:

Hard earned? We get a fourth every year no matter whether we suck or win the big game.... and 20+ years of not very good 4th round picks does not mean it's poor utilization of those picks... it's that it's hard to find quality players anywhere after the second round... as more and more picks go by.... it's more of a crap shoot of who can succeed in the NFL.. and who can't

2003 4th rounders - Dominick Davis, Onterrio Smith, Quentin Griffith, Lee Suggs, Asante Samuel

2002 4th rounders - Alex Brown, David Thornton, David Garrard, Randy McMichael, Rohan Davey, Najeh Davenport

2001 - Anthony Henry, Rudi Johnson, Orlando Huff, Calos Polk, Justin McCareins, Ryan Diem, Correll Buckhalter, Ed Hartwell

These aren't stars like Deion Sanders, Laverneous Coles, Chad Morten, Randy Thomas and Clinton Portis but they are the players that round out the 53 man rosters in their rookie years and grow into starters without taking up all the cap space. The difference between teams like the Patriots and Eagles and teams like the Redskins is their ability to fill a roster with cheaper, quality players through the draft and occasionally develop a star. Then if need be they can go get the missing piece, like Cory Dillon or Terell Owens.

I think some guy by the name of Stephen Davis was drafted in the 4th round.

Another guy, Terrell Davis, was taken in the 6th.

On, and on....you can't find a "gem" in the draft if you don't have draft picks.

The Hogster wrote:I like the idea...BUT WHY DO WE ALWAYS TRADE FUTURE PICKS? Jesus...our 1st rounder next year AND this year's third and next years 4th.


Lemme get this straight...we traded a FIRST ROUND PICK next year..that may be higher than 25th & two other picks for ONE First Rounder.

That's like buying a 5 dollar bill for 10 bucks

In Gibbs we Trust....

But when we win the Super Bowl next year we are trading the 31st pick and a 3 and 4 for the 25th. !!!!!!

I got to put some kind of friggin spin on this mess.

<<
OK Lenny
Trading our 1st next year and two lower round picks to get a QB at #25 the won't even see the field for mop up duty this year verse Filling a need in the 3rd round of this year's draft and picking up a QB in the first round next year who will have at the least will have been on the field in the last year
You say silly I say step away from the pasta bowl>>

Any witty comments today, 1niksder?



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