The-Hogs.net - Washington Football Discussion, Redskins to Commanders Era

I see both sides... Mark is absolutely correct in that the knee jerk reaction to fire fire restart isn't the way to win. But in DC we are sick to death of "next year". We had a qb play at a prowl bowl level, smoke and mirrors aside it is was it is... And we made the playoffs with a MUCH less talented team.

We are led to believe that the most important position is an area of weakness, and that the guy who gave us relevance and a playoff birth, is incapable of being a starter. Then we are led to believe that with a change will come better play and more wins.

Gruden isn't a winner. Kirk isn't Brady. Our team IS more talented then 2012, but it's been 1 step forward 2 steps backwards all year.
I think a mind like Belicheat would be more successful with the same players, but I'm not so naive to think that we can just call a guy who is sitting by the phone on stand by to come take us to glory.

Losing isn't fun.. Losing like that was embarrassing, and I'm guilty of posting radical thoughts and ideas in the heat of the moment... It just sucks badly

G'day ckRGiii - actually you're just like a lot of us - I'm also sick of how long it's taken and 2012 looked like a good start but the reality is the kid showed absolutely no ability to read defenses - he may get there but it's going to take time

totally agree that Jay and Kirk don't seem like they are going to be great but that is not what we need - we need a couple of seasons and a couple more drafts for Scot to put a good group together here - whether that is with Kirk and/or Jay is not that big of a deal

I'm as tired as anyone about the waiting but that's what it's going to take ... as long as Snyder does not interfere here again

this franchise is not near as good as some here think - yesterday was horrible in so many ways - everyone had a bad day

PulpExposure wrote:I think it's better, too. But it's got more talent, and it's built better.

But he's an offensive guy, and his offense isn't working. The running game is historically bad for the Redskins. You add players and talent to the offensive line, one of the best offensive line coaches in the NFL, and the running game gets worse? Alfred Morris is a non-factor as a rusher?

None of this makes sense.

I know what you're saying. I think the defense is woefully lacking in talent though. Really hope we get a first round beast next year on that side of the ball.

riggofan wrote:

PulpExposure wrote:I think it's better, too. But it's got more talent, and it's built better.

But he's an offensive guy, and his offense isn't working. The running game is historically bad for the Redskins. You add players and talent to the offensive line, one of the best offensive line coaches in the NFL, and the running game gets worse? Alfred Morris is a non-factor as a rusher?

None of this makes sense.

I know what you're saying. I think the defense is woefully lacking in talent though. Really hope we get a first round beast next year on that side of the ball.

Alfred Morris is done. He's had one decent game in the last six and that was against the worst rushing defense in the league. Matt Jones can't hold onto the ball. Thompson averaged 2.5 yards a carry and led the team.

I think if we're honest this team needs about 40 new players. Who on this team is indispensable?

I'm not as big a Kirk Cousins fan as some but that does not make me a Robert Griffin III nut either - I'm just disappointed that the QB with the arm and the athletic talent did not work out to be a better QB - Kirk Cousins is never going to be great, he's just a good NFL QB and possibly best suited to a back-up role - RG3 offers so much more but he obviously is not there yet and who knows if he ever will

Kirk Cousins is the better option and he's an OK QB but that doesn't make up for the disappointment that RG3 didn't get the coaching he needs

absolutely agree that we should sign Kirk Cousins as soon as possible and I'm sure he will get a fair offer which he should take

I am not saying fire Gruden mid season, although I have said it earlier it is not a good idea at this point since there is not anything to be salvaged by replacing him other than seeing what we have in RG3 is a fair and unbiased way.

Gruden won 4 games last year. Gruden has to win in a way he hasn't ever just to be equal to Jim Zorn in W/L. The dude is fired. He is incompetent. He cannot adapt. He only can walk one way while talented NFL caliber coaches just manipulate him at will. I cannot understand what you typical Redskins fans that love this Zorn/Gus/Shanny crap when it is obvious they suck. I see it over and over, year after year, and you guys take the same bait and are quick to run talent out the door. You will give an obvious backup like Kirk double or triple the starts a 25 yr old former playoff NFL OROY Pro Bowl QB with a great arm and then preach patience in such an inconsistent way to excuse poor play of the backup. You are all over RG3 for sacks but no one throws picks like Captain Pick. And Picks are worse than sacks.

I laugh at all this Cousins support. Nothing is going to change his noodle arm. He will always throw picks. NFL Defenses are completely taking our run game away because they know Captain Pick will not beat you through the air unless you are last in the league in something. If the refs did not penalize the TB Bucs for the most penalties in their franchise history, we would not have won that game.

Gruden is not talented. The reason he tossed RG3 on the scrap pile is because Gruden does not have the talent or capacity to adjust his strict understanding of the game to other talent. This supported by his inability to make meaningful halftime adjustments.

I want Kirk resigned as a backup. Rg3 will be better than Kirk if even NFL Defenses fear his arm enough to let our run Game come back to life. RG3 is on this roster because he is very much in play next year. Gruden will be fired. Kirk may be throwing picks on another team. kirk may be here. But he will not be signed to a franchise QB contract barring an act of God these last games.

Gruden sucks. Kirk sucks. You Redskins fans that make excuses for them just make it worse.

Burgundy&GoldForever wrote:

PulpExposure wrote: .. You add players and talent to the offensive line, one of the best offensive line coaches in the NFL, and the running game gets worse? Alfred Morris is a non-factor as a rusher? None of this makes sense.

Alfred Morris is done. He's had one decent game in the last six and that was against the worst rushing defense in the league. Matt Jones can't hold onto the ball. Thompson averaged 2.5 yards a carry and led the team. I think if we're honest this team needs about 40 new players.

We do need a lot of players but there are a number of players here who for one reason or another are not getting an opportunity to play at a better level - Scot and the FO know what they are seeing and will act accordingly at the right time - just pronouncing a guy as 'done' when he's not a part of a group of players that could mean better results with a better surrounding cast is not helpful

I'm watching the Pats game. Didn't Brady have a weak arm when he came out of college?

EA7649 wrote:I'm watching the Pats game. Didn't Brady have a weak arm when he came out of college?

Brady still has a weak arm for an NFL quarterback. He doesn't make a lot of deep throws.

it doesn't matter that Brady has a weak arm - when he throws the ball there's generally a WR or TE or RB catching it

there are a lot of good QBs in the NFL like Kirk Cousins who also have weak arms - only problem is they throw it to the wrong guys a lot

Tom Brady does not have a weak arm. He doesn't have an overpowering arm, but it isn't weak.

hitmandm wrote:
I want Kirk resigned as a backup. Rg3 will be better than Kirk if even NFL Defenses fear his arm enough to let our run Game come back to life. RG3 is on this roster because he is very much in play next year. Gruden will be fired. Kirk may be throwing picks on another team. kirk may be here. But he will not be signed to a franchise QB contract barring an act of God these last games.

So you think Kirk is a pick machine but you want him signed?? No only that you want him signed to backup RG....

PulpExposure wrote:I'm good with patience. But do you honestly think Gruden is the guy? Do you think 3 more years with him and we'll see a winning team?

Probably not, but I think more harm is done by replacing him now (or at the end of this season), than sticking with him while Scot adds player personnel. Switching coaching staffs every two seasons, will only exacerbate the issues we have. I know it's painful as a fan to watch the same old results year in and year out, but stability is what we need most after 20 years of constant flux.

Deadskins wrote:

PulpExposure wrote:I'm good with patience. But do you honestly think Gruden is the guy? Do you think 3 more years with him and we'll see a winning team?

Probably not, but I think more harm is done by replacing him now (or at the end of this season), than sticking with him while Scot adds player personnel. Switching coaching staffs every two seasons, will only exacerbate the issues we have. I know it's painful as a fan to watch the same old results year in and year out, but stability is what we need most after 20 years of constant flux.

Cosign. We need to stop taking steps backwards as an organization. We've been like the Terminator of NFL teams. Taking steps backwards is what we do. It's all we do. And we will not stop until we are dead.

Except we need to stop. Right now. The only way we should be replacing Jay Gruden is with someone actually qualified for the job by experience and with a history of success. Good luck even finding a person with those credentials who wants the job right now. Gruden needs to stay at least through the rebuilding process. If he's still not winning road games at that point then he needs to go.

Deadskins wrote:

PulpExposure wrote:I'm good with patience. But do you honestly think Gruden is the guy? Do you think 3 more years with him and we'll see a winning team?

Probably not, but I think more harm is done by replacing him now (or at the end of this season), than sticking with him while Scot adds player personnel. Switching coaching staffs every two seasons, will only exacerbate the issues we have. I know it's painful as a fan to watch the same old results year in and year out, but stability is what we need most after 20 years of constant flux.

Well said, Deadskins. This exactly 1000%. It sucks, and people will get frustrated about it, but there is no easy way out of this except for patient rebuilding. People keep acting like we're going to replace a coach or draft a miracle QB or holy *sh$t* bring back RG3??? Whatever.

Barring any complete meltdowns, I would definitely plan to give Gruden two more seasons. Continue to rebuild the roster during that time. Best case, Gruden shows that he is a competent coach and does well with more talent on the team. Worst case, you decide he's not the guy. You hire another coach and give him a roster to work with that has some potential to actually win.

Personally, I'm just glad that this season hasn't been as bad as I thought it might be. 2013 was awful and 2014 was absolutely horrific. At least this season we've had some good to go with the bad. We're actually playing a meaningful game on Sunday. Cheer up, fellas. Things might not be great, but they've definitely been worse.

^^ Agreed after years of being done before the TDay turkey, it's nice to still be in the mixed for a division title. I don't care if we win it with a 5-11, 6-10, or 9-7 record. Winning breeds winning...that something this organization desperately needs!!

Deadskins wrote:

PulpExposure wrote:I'm good with patience. But do you honestly think Gruden is the guy? Do you think 3 more years with him and we'll see a winning team?

Probably not, but I think more harm is done by replacing him now (or at the end of this season), than sticking with him while Scot adds player personnel. Switching coaching staffs every two seasons, will only exacerbate the issues we have. I know it's painful as a fan to watch the same old results year in and year out, but stability is what we need most after 20 years of constant flux.

THIS - "Damn man, you know your football"

I am not one who thinks much of Gruden as a HC - HOWEVER - I do agree that he should be kept here until we have the players in place and then we will be able to attract a better HC - nobody really worth considering, is likely to want to come here until this franchise shows that the days of Snyder interfering are not evident anymore and I do agree that we don't need to change HCs every couple of years like we've been doing but I think that process stops when you have NFL types making the decisions here and not the Snyder faction

I hate the "wait until next year" refrain as much as anyone but IMO we are already seeing improvement on the field, even after the couple of games this season that have been a complete shambles - I don't need to 'play meaningful games in December' - to me the progress is already there and that is pretty amazing considering how bad we have been in recent seasons

riggofan wrote:Barring any complete meltdowns, I would definitely plan to give Gruden two more seasons. Continue to rebuild the roster during that time. Best case, Gruden shows that he is a competent coach and does well with more talent on the team. Worst case, you decide he's not the guy. You hire another coach and give him a roster to work with that has some potential to actually win.

Ah. The Sam Hinkie plan (the 76'ers are doing exactly this).

I get what you all are saying. But aren't we essentially throwing in the towel then for the next few seasons because I can't find one person who actually thinks Gruden is the guy?

The problem with the Redskins isn't exactly changing coaches every 2 years. That's the symptom of the disease. In a real world (i.e., non-Redskins world), if your coach sucks, it's evident why you fire him, and you'll still get people applying for the job. Coaches will still be interested in the job regardless as there just aren't that many job openings in the NFL. Except....

Our problem is far deeper than that. We have a disease. The disease is called Dan Snyder. That's why people don't want to come here.

It's not the roster or the coaching turnover. It's that they have to work for that POS. And no amount of patience we show with Gruden will change that reality.

PulpExposure wrote:I get what you all are saying. But aren't we essentially throwing in the towel then for the next few seasons because I can't find one person who actually thinks Gruden is the guy?

So we should cut bait and hire another coach because fans don't think Gruden is the guy? The same fans who were clamoring to bring Albert Haynesworth here?

I don't really have any big problem with Gruden so far. I think he's done a better job this year than last year. Not surprisingly the roster is a little better this year than last. Fewer mistakes with the local media. Surprisingly less drama around the team since the season started. The team has at least been showing up at Fedex too. I also give him a lot of credit for standing up to Snyder back in August and making the decision to start Cousins.

Its just hard to say "yeah he's the guy" at this point. We'll see. I don't see it as throwing in the towel for the next few seasons, because I don't think we'll be losing games because of Jay Gruden. We'll be losing games because our defense is slow as hell.

PulpExposure wrote:It's not the roster or the coaching turnover. It's that they have to work for that POS. And no amount of patience we show with Gruden will change that reality.

Yeah we've been saying that for a long time. I think if you have any hopes of this thing turning around its all about Scot McCloughan. You?

I don't think that Jay Gruden is here next season if Snyder is making the decision ...

the future of this franchise is better off, if Scot & the FO make all the coaching and player decisions (with Snyder's support)

hopefully Gruden is still here in 2016 and we can continue to add the players that Scot and the FO think will help

riggofan wrote:
Yeah we've been saying that for a long time. I think if you have any hopes of this thing turning around its all about Scot McCloughan. You?

He's Obi Wan. He's our only hope.

Until he says f it from working with Dan and starts hitting the sauce again...

PulpExposure wrote:He's Obi Wan. He's our only hope.

Until he says f it from working with Dan and starts hitting the sauce again...

Btw if McCloughan says adios to Gruden at the end of the season, I'm cool with that too. Just want to see someone with a clue calling these shots for once.

PulpExposure wrote:

riggofan wrote:
Yeah we've been saying that for a long time. I think if you have any hopes of this thing turning around its all about Scot McCloughan. You?

He's Obi Wan. He's our only hope.

Until he says f it from working with Dan and starts hitting the sauce again...

Yep. Kind of scary to have our eggs in one basket, but there it is.

That thing with his wife in the offseason was a heart-stopper. Luckily it doesn't appear to have had long-term effects. I'm crossing my fingers for next offseason, and I believe in Scot. He's had a huge impact on this team in less than a year.

riggofan wrote:

PulpExposure wrote:He's Obi Wan. He's our only hope, until he says "eff it" from working with Dan & starts hitting the sauce again.

Btw if McCloughan says adios to Gruden at the end of the season, I'm cool with that too. Just want to see someone with a clue calling these shots for once.

+1 - that's my man - we're OK as long as Scot & this FO are making the personnel decisions here