The-Hogs.net - Washington Football Discussion, Redskins to Commanders Era

Posted: **Thu Oct 15, 2015 11:52 am**

StorminMormon86 wrote:Garcon drops the pass in the Lions preseason game, the excuses come out of the woodwork. Garcon gifts the Falcons a ball thrown by Kirk, "OMG KIRK IS A POS!!! REX GROSSMAN JR!!!!"

I don't understand why ANYONE who claims to be a Skins fan would not be on the "Kirk Cousins bandwagon". He is our last hope of having a competent QB for the next few years. It's ridiculous that people would want to hang him out to dry and hope he fails.

And yes, the people who want Kirk to fail are blind Griffin homers. Just a fact. They want Kirk to fail so Gruden can get fired and Snyder will hire another coach to "fix" Griffin or give him another shot.

To be fair, it's Kirk, Captain Kirk Grossman...
We can analyze play by play, Garçon dropping a tough catch in preseason, or him falling back and doing everything he can besides letting it hit the ground to make another. Had that been the first int of the year, I'd bet you don't hear those things.
The funny thing here bud, is you Kirk fanboys gave us Griffin supporters hell EVERY game- and we had defenders like y'all do. Ironically you bashed us for "excuses" but now that the tables have turned do the exact same *sh$t*!

I haven't heard one single person say they want Kirk to fail. Personally I want him to start with not sucking, then hopefully play at a high level.. I certainly won't be able to watch "a few more years" of this kid throwing Ints. If he IS our last hope, then it looks bleak.

Like most so called Griffin homers, I want to win football games, and NOT be the laughing stock of espn and the NFC east. I also could give a flying F who is behind center, so long as they don't single handedly lose us games..

I also woke up this am and was like, why the hell are we even giving Kirk Grossman another shot? He looks exactly the same as when he got benched last year. Timid, inaccurate, noodle armed, and hitting defenders in the chest. Good grief man, how is this better then anything else? I don't see it personally

Posted: **Thu Oct 15, 2015 12:28 pm**

cowboykillerzRGiii wrote:I also woke up this am and was like, why the hell are we even giving Kirk Grossman another shot? He looks exactly the same as when he got benched last year. Timid, inaccurate, noodle armed, and hitting defenders in the chest. Good grief man, how is this better then anything else? I don't see it personally

That's not fair. He has had some really nice 4th quarter drives, which is a big difference than last year. When he would just crumble under pressure instead.

Posted: **Thu Oct 15, 2015 12:33 pm**

cowboykillerzRGiii wrote:For the sake of moving on... You supply links to posts I made directly after Kirk making a bonehead play, and/or a game losing play.

At least the links worked this time....

But you typed them right? Those were your thoughts. I don't care the circumstances. That was your stream of consciousness. Own up. I get upset too but choose not to log on because I will most likely type things I will later disagree with. I did that in the past on here.

cowboykillerzRGiii wrote:5tds 6 ints and only one pass of 40 yards or more... Is barely competent.. if at all. Imho of course

Again --- an example of bias which results in inaccuracies. You have to take player performance in its totality. Saying that he has 6 INTs and only 1 pass of over 40 = incompetence (or a now watered down "barely competent" -- which is a change from "not even semi competent") -- which no matter how you look at it is literally ridiculous. It isn't good, but if you look at what he has done as a whole it is mediocre --- not something to strive for, but is the best we've seen since 2012.

Posted: **Thu Oct 15, 2015 12:39 pm**

PulpExposure wrote:Wow. There's a middle ground here, too, SM.

I don't want RG3 to ever put on a Redskins uniform again. And I'm with Cousins for the whole year, because he needs a shot to succeed, but I also am 99% sure he's not a solution either. He throws interceptions (that's inarguable, whether it's by bad luck or whatever, he does turn the ball over), and his ball placement is poor (e.g., the INT Garcon gifted to Atlanta was thrown behind him). Those are problematic downsides in a QB.

I don't see how he's our last chance for the next few years. There's the draft, and there are other options.

Hey maybe Jay Cutler will be available! (I joke, but his career int% is almost a full percentage point lower than Kirk's, with a career TD% almost a full percentage point higher....)

I meant the last chance of the current 3 QB's we have on the roster. But yes, I am a realist as well. But I'm also patient, and ready to ride out the season with Kirk to see how it goes.

Posted: **Thu Oct 15, 2015 12:49 pm**

cowboykillerzRGiii wrote:I also woke up this am and was like, why the hell are we even giving Kirk Grossman another shot? He looks exactly the same as when he got benched last year. Timid, inaccurate, noodle armed, and hitting defenders in the chest. Good grief man, how is this better then anything else? I don't see it personally

Sleep bias. That may be the root of the problem.... :lol:

Then you aren't really looking hard enough. He doesn't look similar in almost all respects from last year. Those RGIII glasses can fog stuff up pretty good!!!!!

He isn't Rex Grossman.
He isn't solid either.
He isn't "inaccurate" per se.
He doesn't hit WRs in stride consistently; especially on crossing routes.
He has an INT problem.
He is wildly inconsistent game over game.
He has proven he can produce game-winning drives.
He is not timid.
He doesn't have a "noodle arm".
He doesn't have a strong arm.
He has good mechanics.
He makes good pre snap reads.
He can make poor post snap reads.
He can make good post snap reads.

Is he good -- no.
Is he better than anything we've seen from any of our other QBs since 2012 -- yes, without question.
Has he played well enough to earn the "starter" role until the end of the year -- yes, barring something catastrophic.
Based on what we have seen up to this point, is he the "answer" moving forward --- no, but we have 11 more games to figure that out.

Posted: **Thu Oct 15, 2015 3:20 pm**

I don't think it's a matter of arm strength with Kirk, but rather ball placement.

Posted: **Thu Oct 15, 2015 6:40 pm**

Kirk is a great NFL backup QB.

Gruden is a great Arena Football Coach.

We need to stop falling into these traps where we think we can polish a turd and they'll be great Redskins.

Posted: **Thu Oct 15, 2015 8:47 pm**

markshark84 wrote:
cowboykillerzRGiii wrote:For the sake of moving on... You supply links to posts I made directly after Kirk making a bonehead play, and/or a game losing play.

At least the links worked this time....

But you typed them right? Those were your thoughts. I don't care the circumstances. That was your stream of consciousness. Own up. I get upset too but choose not to log on because I will most likely type things I will later disagree with. I did that in the past on here.

cowboykillerzRGiii wrote:5tds 6 ints and only one pass of 40 yards or more... Is barely competent.. if at all. Imho of course

Again --- an example of bias which results in inaccuracies. You have to take player performance in its totality. Saying that he has 6 INTs and only 1 pass of over 40 = incompetence (or a now watered down "barely competent" -- which is a change from "not even semi competent") -- which no matter how you look at it is literally ridiculous. It isn't good, but if you look at what he has done as a whole it is mediocre --- not something to strive for, but is the best we've seen since 2012.

Own up to what boss?
When he killed our chances of winning, int or no it was a bad decision and I stand by that. Should've made the blocking assignments to block down and pick up the blitzing lb, who showed his hand ironically enough.

I HAVE given him daps for his successes. The fact they are few and far between is his fault not mine.

You say tomato you i tamayto, at the end of the day we agree that Kirk is a solid backup and not so good starter. Mediocre in your eyes, multiple games with multiple ints and waaaayyy to few tds equals crappy in my book.
Weeden is "mediocre" by most standards, but we can both agree (maybe) that he is doodoo .

I have no shame in my game.. I dislike Kirks tendencies to piss me off, but I full heartedly hope and pray he balls out of control every weekend.

I feel like we are agreeing more and more, but can't seem to put into our posts! Lmao

I don't think Rgiii is the answer, but seeing that Kirk clearly is not, Ya, I kind of DO want to see how he can perform after working with the qb coach and what appears to be better play up front.
I will not be rooting for rgiii after each interception, ok? But when the losses pile up I will certainly question the options.
Cheers

Posted: **Thu Oct 15, 2015 9:52 pm**

cowboykillerzRGiii wrote:I also woke up this am and was like, why the hell are we even giving Kirk Grossman another shot? He looks exactly the same as when he got benched last year. Timid, inaccurate, noodle armed, and hitting defenders in the chest.

I'm OK with legitimate criticism but there are none here. He's completing 68.1% of his passes and has cut his interception rate virtually in half from 6.3% his rookie season to 3.2% thus far this season. He is far from "noodle-armed" as there isn't a designed throw in the playbook longer than 40 yards. He makes those throws with ease. Of his six interceptions this season, two were off Pierre Garcon's hands and one was the Grant overtime play. The only legitimate criticisms of Cousins are that he makes bad decisions at times and he has poor footwork at times. The high throws are typically a result of his front foot being too far out, making it impossible to transfer his weight to his front foot before the ball is released. But, again, he's still completing 68.1% of his passes. If the alleged accusations were true he could not possibly complete that high a percentage of his pass attempts.

Posted: **Thu Oct 15, 2015 11:06 pm**

Burgundy&GoldForever wrote:But, again, he's still completing 68.1% of his passes. If the alleged accusations were true he could not possibly complete that high a percentage of his pass attempts.

So you'll have artificially inflated completion percentage if all you do is throw short. And the Redskins definitely do. Kirk is 25th in yards per pass attempt, and as posted elsewhere, second to last in yards per completion.

So I'm not sure I'd use that 68.1% as support of his accuracy; the eye tells you that his ball placement isn't great. He doesn't hit people in stride, and that's real accuracy. The Skins are 25th in yards after catch. Yeah no doubt a lot of that has to do with receivers, but how many times have you seen Kirk lead a receiver and hit them in stride? Not often enough.

His arm strength isn't an issue, though, agreed.

Posted: **Thu Oct 15, 2015 11:52 pm**

hitmandm wrote:Kirk is a great NFL backup QB.

Gruden is a great Arena Football Coach.

We need to stop falling into these traps where we think we can polish a turd and they'll be great Redskins.

Posted: **Fri Oct 16, 2015 8:34 am**

PulpExposure wrote:I'm not sure I'd use that 68.1% as support of his accuracy; the eye tells you that his ball placement isn't great. He doesn't hit people in stride, and that's real accuracy. The Skins are 25th in yards after catch. Yeah no doubt a lot of that has to do with receivers, but how many times have you seen Kirk lead a receiver and hit them in stride? Not often enough.

His arm strength isn't an issue, though, agreed.

His arm strength is fine, he is just too timid sometimes to use it. He could have had two TD's to Reed in the G-stings game, but he underthrew the ball. It might be his mechanics; he doesn't have the strength to do it all with his arm alone, if he doesn't step into the throw properly. The issue is definitely his accuracy. Maybe he'll get better as he get's more playing time. We can only hope.

Posted: **Fri Oct 16, 2015 9:13 am**

PulpExposure wrote:
Burgundy&GoldForever wrote:But, again, he's still completing 68.1% of his passes. If the alleged accusations were true he could not possibly complete that high a percentage of his pass attempts.

So you'll have artificially inflated completion percentage if all you do is throw short. And the Redskins definitely do. Kirk is 25th in yards per pass attempt, and as posted elsewhere, second to last in yards per completion.

So I'm not sure I'd use that 68.1% as support of his accuracy; the eye tells you that his ball placement isn't great. He doesn't hit people in stride, and that's real accuracy. The Skins are 25th in yards after catch. Yeah no doubt a lot of that has to do with receivers, but how many times have you seen Kirk lead a receiver and hit them in stride? Not often enough.

His arm strength isn't an issue, though, agreed.

Yes, YPA and YPC are valid concerns. What they tell me is he's making the passes catchable but not, as you stated, leading the receivers in such manner as YAC comes into play. It could also be at times the receivers are not running routes designed to create separation or, worse, running routes designed to create separation and simply not creating any. But we do know there have been opportunities Cousins has flat out missed for whatever reason and those are often the intermediate and long passing plays. Maybe he's not in sync with his receivers on longer routes. Maybe he's incapable of making plays other than timing routes, either counting steps and throwing or counting seconds and throwing. He really doesn't seem to analyze the defensive situation before he throws the football. Maybe that stems from Gruden. Perhaps he holds a "think long, think wrong" philosophy. Who knows? But none of these issues demonstrate a timidity or a noodle arm or overall inaccuracy or a habit of hitting defenders in the chest with the football.

Posted: **Fri Oct 16, 2015 10:55 am**

Burgundy&GoldForever wrote:none of these issues demonstrate a timidity or a noodle arm or overall inaccuracy or a habit of hitting defenders in the chest with the football.

Like PE said, you can look at all the stats you want, but usually the old eyeball test gives you the best insight. Receivers are making catches that pad the stats, but that doesn't mean it was a good throw. Too often the pass seems to be behind a crossing receiver, or short on a vertical route. Hopefully, this will get better as time goes on, but so far, Kirk has had accuracy problems.

Posted: **Fri Oct 16, 2015 11:39 am**

Deadskins wrote:Like PE said, you can look at all the stats you want, but usually the old eyeball test gives you the best insight. Receivers are making catches that pad the stats, but that doesn't mean it was a good throw. Too often the pass seems to be behind a crossing receiver, or short on a vertical route. Hopefully, this will get better as time goes on, but so far, Kirk has had accuracy problems.

Definitely agree, and I think Cousins himself has said as much.

Posted: **Fri Oct 16, 2015 1:24 pm**

Burgundy&GoldForever wrote:[But none of these issues demonstrate a timidity or a noodle arm or overall inaccuracy or a habit of hitting defenders in the chest with the football.

And where we disagree is that I absolutely do think it's an accuracy issue. An accurate QB will hit a player in stride. An inaccurate player will not.

Posted: **Sat Oct 17, 2015 11:55 pm**

PulpExposure wrote:
Burgundy&GoldForever wrote:[But none of these issues demonstrate a timidity or a noodle arm or overall inaccuracy or a habit of hitting defenders in the chest with the football.

And where we disagree is that I absolutely do think it's an accuracy issue. An accurate QB will hit a player in stride. An inaccurate player will not.

We might be getting into a semantics issue here which is probably unnecessary since I think we agree Cousins is not precise enough with his ball placement to allow receivers to take advantage of separation or defensive mismatches. The end result is too few points on the scoreboard. That's (obviously) a major problem, not a minor issue. Is it correctable? I sincerely doubt it since it's something quarterbacks work on their entire passing careers from pee wee leagues up. I think a player who makes those passes consistently is typically a 1st round draft pick, and certainly not a 4th round afterthought. I think, in the end, the most Cousins can do is to secure his place as a reliable backup. I don't see his performance improving to such extent as to secure the starter role for the foreseeable future. I do, however, see him starting until there is a better option. As of now, there isn't one. I fully anticipate that will be addressed in the offseason. There are, however, no locks in the draft and no one trades a franchise quarterback intentionally so it may be another season or two before the issue can truly be addressed with a long term solution.

Posted: **Sun Oct 18, 2015 10:26 pm**

Yes. Kirk is so much better than RG3. hahahahaha.

Give RG3 a chance.

Posted: **Sun Oct 18, 2015 11:15 pm**

Look at RG3's stats from 2014 when Gruden would destroy him at all costs. It is way better than Kirk's stats this year and Gruden makes every excuse for the pick machine. And we have a much better team this year in terms of talent.

Gruden doesn't have any credibility. Snyder was right for keeping RG3 on roster.

Gruden is as good as fired and it happened a year too late.

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