The-Hogs.net - Washington Football Discussion, Redskins to Commanders Era

Breaking down the thread:

Hogster says Gano's record stinks and other adjectives as well.
Some have fired back that Gano's record doesn't smell as bad as it looks (I was in this group before this thread).

Though I don't agree with Hogster's extreme, I have to admit that there is no defense of Gano's record, but there are mitigating circumstances that should not be used to excuse his record, but should be used to point out that there is potential for further growth.

Yes, he had a 66% record in 2010 (Sucked), but he is 74% and the blocks, though being part of the official record, do point out that his accuracy has improved, unofficialy - I would be willing to bet a coach looks at those circumstances - which is why Shanny came to his defense after the Seattle game.

Hogster raises concerns or rather flat out says in many very descriptive adjectives that Gano doesn't have the mindset to kick in the NFL. There is strong evidence to support his assertion. Does well in practice. Perfect in pre-season. Poor kicking in bad wether. Cannot directionally kick -off with consistency (do we know howmany kickers can - was Danny asking too much of his kicker)?

I find little to defend against Hogster's assertion and have those concerns as well.

I have read that Hogster has acknowledged that it is unlikely that Gano will be released at the end of the season. He is very, very adament about his desire that Gano should go.

All of us, certainly are not blind to the poor season that Gano has had, but some of us keep seeing the ghost of David Akers and say "what if." The third full season just might be the charm. Are we guilty of living in fear of making another David Akers mistake? Was that a mistake or is that how the NFL kicker business usually works? A lot of kickers mature after a few seasons, but a lot of them don't. Which do we have David Akers or Nick Novack (didn't we have him before)?

I can't answer those questions, but I know that Shanny wants to grow his own. I believe that he wants Gano to succeed. There is no reason to release him out right after the season.

I think that we can all agree that the most likely thing (most likely - being the key words) that will happen is Gano will be allowed to enter into the FA period untendered.

This is my take:

Gano is a young kicker who had a dismal first full year and improved slightly the second year.
My hope is that Gano will continue to improve. Look at Nugent, he was inconsistent with the Jets who drafted him and has converted 93%.

Questions:

1. It is possible that Gano could make that growth as well. Do we have any more time to allow for that growth? Next season is the year, we might be putting it together. Defense improved this year - add a couple of more pieces - more improvement. Offense showed signs of life early and late - add a few more pieces - QB, OL - consistent improvement.

2. Will his kicks be of game winning importance to us in a play-off run?

3. What if it is more of the same of Gano and we are at the top of the division like we started out his season, but maintain it that start next? Can we afford more of the same Gano?

4. Do we bring in the best rookie kickers and let them compete with Gano?

5. Do we bring in all comers and let them compete with Gano?

6. Do we say were done with Gano and sign, maybe, Conner Barth or Mike Nugent or Josh Scobee who have a 90% FG rate?

Call me a blind homer, but my heart says let Gano compete with all comers. Rogers went out and got an eye exam and look at him now. Maybe Gano can go out and get a head exam (therapist) and get his act together). This guy has got to understand that his job is in jeopardy - I heard him on the radio a couple of weeks ago after the Dallas game, that he welcomes that challenge and said he will out kick any challengers - love his attitude - now show us!

FA Kickers.

Name Age
Jay Feely (ARZ) 75% Who Cares
Rian Lindell (BUF) 87% 33
Mike Nugent (CIN) 93% 28
Phil Dawson (CLE) 81% 35
Neil Rackers (HOU) 83% 34
Josh Scobee (JAC) 90% 28
Nick Folk (NYJ) 78% Who Cares
Connor Barth (TB) 92% 24

Restricted
*Ryan Succop (KC) - 88% 22
Graham Gano (WAS) - 74% 23

Finding inconsistent data on whether or not Succup is restricted.

http://walterfootball.com/freeagentscontractskc.php

Hogster,
You seem to think kicking a FG is similar to shooting free throws. It is nothing like that. Shooting free throws in an individual act in a team sport. Kicking a FG is team act. If you want to compare a FG to basketball it is more like a pick and roll 3 point shot buzzer beater.

Sure the Kicker is the most important part of the FG team but he is only part of the team. If the line doesn't block, or the snapper screws up the snap or the holder botches the hold this can all result in a missed FG.

And it happened for four or five of Gano's 9 misses.

You bringing up Lowmiller was funny, because he was
stone cold dead eye accurate when Jeff Rutledge was his holder. Once Rutledge retired Chip went to hell in a hand basket. I'm sure that had nothing to do with the other holders not doing something right and was just Chip not reusing his other holders. But whatever the case, once JR retired Chip was done.

Red_One43 wrote:Breaking down the thread:

Hogster says Gano's record stinks and other adjectives as well.
Some have fired back that Gano's record doesn't smell as bad as it looks (I was in this group before this thread).

Though I don't agree with Hogster's extreme, I have to admit that there is no defense of Gano's record, but there are mitigating circumstances that should not be used to excuse his record, but should be used to point out that there is potential for further growth.

Yes, he had a 66% record in 2010 (Sucked), but he is 74% and the blocks, though being part of the official record, do point out that his accuracy has improved, unofficialy - I would be willing to bet a coach looks at those circumstances - which is why Shanny came to his defense after the Seattle game.

Hogster raises concerns or rather flat out says in many very descriptive adjectives that Gano doesn't have the mindset to kick in the NFL. There is strong evidence to support his assertion. Does well in practice. Perfect in pre-season. Poor kicking in bad wether. Cannot directionally kick -off with consistency (do we know howmany kickers can - was Danny asking too much of his kicker)?

I find little to defend against Hogster's assertion and have those concerns as well.

I have read that Hogster has acknowledged that it is unlikely that Gano will be released at the end of the season. He is very, very adament about his desire that Gano should go.

All of us, certainly are not blind to the poor season that Gano has had, but some of us keep seeing the ghost of David Akers and say "what if." The third full season just might be the charm. Are we guilty of living in fear of making another David Akers mistake? Was that a mistake or is that how the NFL kicker business usually works? A lot of kickers mature after a few seasons, but a lot of them don't. Which do we have David Akers or Nick Novack (didn't we have him before)?

I can't answer those questions, but I know that Shanny wants to grow his own. I believe that he wants Gano to succeed. There is no reason to release him out right after the season.

I think that we can all agree that the most likely thing (most likely - being the key words) that will happen is Gano will be allowed to enter into the FA period untendered.

This is my take:

Gano is a young kicker who had a dismal first full year and improved slightly the second year.
My hope is that Gano will continue to improve. Look at Nugent, he was inconsistent with the Jets who drafted him and has converted 93%.

Questions:

1. It is possible that Gano could make that growth as well. Do we have any more time to allow for that growth? Next season is the year, we might be putting it together. Defense improved this year - add a couple of more pieces - more improvement. Offense showed signs of life early and late - add a few more pieces - QB, OL - consistent improvement.

2. Will his kicks be of game winning importance to us in a play-off run?

3. What if it is more of the same of Gano and we are at the top of the division like we started out his season, but maintain it that start next? Can we afford more of the same Gano?

4. Do we bring in the best rookie kickers and let them compete with Gano?

5. Do we bring in all comers and let them compete with Gano?

6. Do we say were done with Gano and sign, maybe, Conner Barth or Mike Nugent or Josh Scobee who have a 90% FG rate?

Call me a blind homer, but my heart says let Gano compete with all comers. Rogers went out and got an eye exam and look at him now. Maybe Gano can go out and get a head exam (therapist) and get his act together). This guy has got to understand that his job is in jeopardy - I heard him on the radio a couple of weeks ago after the Dallas game, that he welcomes that challenge and said he will out kick any challengers - love his attitude - now show us!

FA Kickers.

Name Age
Jay Feely (ARZ) 75% Who Cares
Rian Lindell (BUF) 87% 33
Mike Nugent (CIN) 93% 28
Phil Dawson (CLE) 81% 35
Neil Rackers (HOU) 83% 34
Josh Scobee (JAC) 90% 28
Nick Folk (NYJ) 78% Who Cares
Connor Barth (TB) 92% 24

Restricted
*Ryan Succop (KC) - 88% 22
Graham Gano (WAS) - 74% 23

Finding inconsistent data on whether or not Succup is restricted.

http://walterfootball.com/freeagentscontractskc.php

Red One, this is an accurate and well written summary of this thread. I doubt any of us will change each others mind--we've discussed this thing almost as much as we can.

The thing is, you guys may be right--that Gano improves markedly in Year 3. Or, I could be right, that he is a talented kicker who has the jitters when it matters. It's hard to become "clutch." I guess that would be similar to the "It" factor that posters often reference regarding QBs. Put simply, I don't think Gano has "It."

I think he is already capable of being a 90% kicker based on Shanahan's comments on his practicing, and the preseason as Red pointed out. My opinion is also based on my optimism of where this team could be next year with (i) another good draft, (ii) another solid Free Agency period, and (iii) the development and improvement of our young guys who got time this year: Ryan Kerrigan, Perry Riley, Roy Helu, Leonard Hankerson, DeJon Gomes, Maurice Hurt, Willie Smith, and the long-awaited return of Jarvis Jenkins.

Those things give me optimism about next year. We won't become the Saints or Packers, but we will be in competitive games with a chance to win. Because of this, I'm not persuaded that Gano has earned the right to have what could be several games on his shoulders.

Let him compete with Free Agents and Rookies, but part of the evaluation should consider his history of practicing well, and throwing up on himself in games.

Hogster, I hear you about going into next season with a kicker who is clutch because we might be ready to compete for the D title given the expected draft and FA moves especially at QB.

Looking at Salaries, I am inclined to think that Shanny is not going to go all out and sign the best FA kicker available. Nugent is having a great season, but that is it. Before this season, he was inconsistent - a disappointment. He is a risk to sign.

Barth already makes top kicker money. Josh Scobee does as well. Anyway, you look at it to pick up a veteran kicker with a proven record, Shanny will have to pay.

I think that he goes with the Gano vs all invited comers. If Gano wins and the 2nd place guy was close and if the 2nd place guy is a young, you might consider keeping both like Dallas did. With Buechler, they had a similar Kicker to Gano - young, big leg, but inonsistent. Bailey has proven to be quite a find. Keeping both insures that you don't give up on Gano too early and if Gano falters, you have his replacement ready to go. If Gano pans out, at some point you can let the other kicker go and ge that roster spot back.




Salaries for FA Kickers over 90%

Connor Barth - 1,900,000
Mike Nugent - 640,000
Josh Scobee - 2,000,000
Graham Gano - 480,000

For Comparison:

Janakowsk - OAK - 2,600,000
Crosby -GB - 1,650,000 Cap - 2,250,000
Matt Prater -DEN - 1,800,000
Akers - SF - 1,300,000 Cap - 1,866, 667

Nugent's career:

http://www.nfl.com/player/mikenugent/2506386/profile

are you freaking kidding me?


there is going to be a competition for the position of kicker here - the winner gets to kick for the Redskins

end of story


Gano had a bad season - we are not better or worse because of Gano

we are not a very good team yet .... but we are close



we will be fine no matter who is kicking here because "good teams" do not depend on their kickers
good teams always seem to have good kickers




we have a mini crisis at QB - who is the kicker is not a worry, trust me on this

good teams have good kickers but they are not good teams because of their kickers



I do so want Gano to be our kicker next year ... but ... guess what .. I could care less

the guy kicking on this team next year is not going to determine if we get in the playoffs or not

we are not going to be worried about Gano's kicking next year - that's for sure

SkinsJock wrote:the guy kicking on this team next year is not going to determine if we get in the playoffs or not

I predict that next year our kicker will be called upon to make some clutch kicks that may determine whether we make the playoff or not.
I don't think that I am outon a limb predicting this. Every win will count next year to not only making the play-offs, but winning the division.

Of course, we will have a better picture of this after the FA period and draft.

Hogster:

I figure I might as well reply. I hope you actually read it. I both dogged you and praised you below. I ultimately agree with you on a main point.

The Hogster wrote:

DarthMonk wrote:Great links!

In NFL Team Field Goal Conversion Percentage this year we are 31st at 74.29%.

http://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stat/fi ... ersion-pct

In NFL Team Field Goal Got Blocked Percentage this year we are 32st at a whopping 11.43%. This is worse than anyone since Tennessee in 2004.

http://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stat/fi ... locked-pct

In NFL Team Field Goal Conversion Percentage (Excluding Blocks) we are 20th at 83.87% (26-31). Two of these misses are from over 50 (3 of 5). If Gano makes one more kick this year he's decimal places out of the top 10.

http://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stat/fi ... -of-blocks

I therefore say that if Gano can win the job again in camp we can look forward to him being an improving top 10 kicker with an above average leg.

BTW - we are also #2 in Kickoff in spite of the OOB kicks which were clearly called by Smith and often dribbled out around the 5 yard line. Just stop calling for 'em coach. Actually, maybe our gripe should go higher up. Maybe Shanny needs to see that Special Teams coaching is lacking on Place Kicking Protection as well as in decision making concerning attempting pylon kicks.

DarthMonk

The Hogster wrote:So basically what you're saying is IF we don't get any blocked, and Gano makes another 50 yarder, THEN we will be okay. Gotcha.

This is an absurd misrepresentaion of my post twisted into your words in order to belittle facts and set up a straw man which you, of course, easily knock over. Gotcha.

The Hogster wrote:Care to share the stats from 2010? Where he kicked 66%? I'll be ready for the excuses for those too.

I have both shared them and commented on them. I made no excuses. My conclusion (I wrote it) is "he's improving."

Isn't he?

The Hogster wrote:Red One makes good points. Ignore stats all you want, but they tell the story for a Kicker.

You seem confused. You admonish me to ignore stats all I want after I supply great stats which you seemingingly ignore or perhaps, do not understand.

The Hogster wrote:It's like shooting Free Throws. You wouldn't send Shaq to the line to shoot a Technical--especially with the game on the line.

AGREED!

Building on that I would not have sent Magic Johnson to the line for technicals in his 2nd year (76%) but would have in 1988 or later when he converted at 90%. His stats show gradual improvement until he became THE BEST IN THE LEAGUE AT SHOOTING FREE THROWS.

The Hogster wrote:I want more than anybody to have a kicker that is reliable. We haven't had one since Chip Lohmiller. But, some of you have short memories. When Chip went up to kick, the collective feeling was that this guy is money. When Gano goes up to kick, I feel like "oh $h** here we go." Put simply, we are HOPING that he has ideal conditions i.e. (perfect snap, perfect hold, no tall linemen jumping in the right spot, no wind) blah blah.

Wow. You tallking about Chop Lowdriller? Chip Polekiller? Only felt close to like money for a year or two with the best holder in history. Other than that he was as shaky as Gano easily. I was at most of those games. I actually had the same feelings you describe for Gano:

The Hogster wrote: HOPING that he has ideal conditions i.e. (perfect snap, perfect hold, no tall linemen jumping in the right spot, no wind) blah blah

Nice idea Hogster but bad example.

Here are Lohmiller's percentages. As you say, they tell the story for a kicker:

1988 73%
1990 75%
1991 72%
1992 75%
1993 57% (Haven't cut him yet)
1994 71%
1995 57% (with Saints)
1996 84% (Whoa Nellie! What happened? With Rams BTW)

Money, huh? It appears Gano's current year is better than all of Lohmiller's with Washington except 1990 and 1992 and the difference is less than one percentage point - aka - a pube.

Gano is better, even with the blocks! OMFG!

The Hogster wrote:If he beats someone out in practice, I still won't have confidence in him,, he reportedly always kicks good in PRACTICE. To his credit, I don't think his problem is ability. He has performance under pressure issues. Anxiety, nerves, whatever you want to call it. Because of that, because of his performance in games, I'm not persuaded in the least bit that he'll be markedly better. That's just me. I think people underestimate the value of kickers.

I AGREE WITH THIS. IT IS A RATIONAL.

The Hogster wrote:We had 3 games decided by 3 points or less this year, and 2 of those were against the Cowboys. Until we are a team that can beat people consistently with both offense and defense, we will be in close games. 3 more wins this year would have us sitting alone in 1st place, headed to the PLAYOFFS. Remember those?? The PLAYOFFS?? I don't trust Graham GaNot like you all do. Bottom line.

I never said I trusted him and I have the same concerns you voiced in these last two paragraphs.

DarthMonk

DarthMonk wrote:

The Hogster wrote:Care to share the stats from 2010? Where he kicked 66%? I'll be ready for the excuses for those too.

I have both shared them and commented on them. I made no excuses. My conclusion (I wrote it) is "he's improving."

Isn't he?

The Hogster wrote:Red One makes good points. Ignore stats all you want, but they tell the story for a Kicker.

You seem confused. You admonish me to ignore stats all I want after I supply great stats which you seemingingly ignore or perhaps, do not understand.

Exactly. It's impossible to discuss this with someone if they refuse to acknowledge that you are even making an argument, much less addressing the argument itself.

Red_One43 wrote:

SkinsJock wrote:the guy kicking on this team next year is not going to determine if we get in the playoffs or not

I predict that next year our kicker will be called upon to make some clutch kicks that may determine whether we make the playoff or not.
I don't think that I am outon a limb predicting this. Every win will count next year to not only making the play-offs, but winning the division.

Of course, we will have a better picture of this after the FA period and draft.

You're right about the fact that there will be games that come down to making a kick - my point is more that there are a whole number of plays during the game that also are important - good teams put themselves in position to win and having a kicker who is able to handle that pressure is certainly a key ingredient
I did not mean to imply that kickers don't determine games although it looked like that - we are close to having a good team again and a guy that can make clutch kicks is certainly a part of that

ALL the kickers that compete for the job here should be looked at mostly for their ability to make clutch kicks

Gano has not had a good season but I believe he can be a good, clutch kicker

he will have a lot to prove here to keep his job

why cut him - Gano is here, he should be given a chance to compete - let him show that he can handle the pressure

Irn-Bru wrote:

DarthMonk wrote:

The Hogster wrote:Care to share the stats from 2010? Where he kicked 66%? I'll be ready for the excuses for those too.

I have both shared them and commented on them. I made no excuses. My conclusion (I wrote it) is "he's improving."

Isn't he?

The Hogster wrote:Red One makes good points. Ignore stats all you want, but they tell the story for a Kicker.

You seem confused. You admonish me to ignore stats all I want after I supply great stats which you seemingingly ignore or perhaps, do not understand.

Exactly. It's impossible to discuss this with someone if they refuse to acknowledge that you are even making an argument, much less addressing the argument itself.

Stand on your own Irn Bru. I ignore your "arguments" because they are weak. Merry Xmas.

DarthMonk Wrote:

This is an absurd misrepresentaion of my post twisted into your words in order to belittle facts and set up a straw man which you, of course, easily knock over. Gotcha.

Actually it is not. It's a pretty straightforward statement that you are looking at all of Gano's misses and attempting to place blame that each miss on someone else. You're doing this without acknowledging that all Kickers must kick under less than ideal conditions. All kickers must deal with (i) the snap, (ii) the hold, (iii) the weather, (iv) the defense. That's part of football.

I have both shared them and commented on them. I made no excuses. My conclusion (I wrote it) is "he's improving."

Isn't he?

Yes. If you consider going from 66% to 70% improving then I agree. You're giving him credit for things he's supposed to do as a professional. He's supposed to improve year to year. So is any other kicker in the league. Accordingly, this is pretty weak considering that his "improved performance" still places him near the worst in the league.

You seem confused. You admonish me to ignore stats all I want after I supply great stats which you seemingingly ignore or perhaps, do not understand.

No confusion here. Your stats are valid. However, you present them to suggest that Gano would be better but for various mishaps. No argument there. But, you all conveniently ignore that every kicker in the league has to kick under the same adverse circumstances, and under the same pressure. Gano has proven time and again, that his "big leg" doesn't show up in the clutch. Maybe it's, nerves, pressure, anxiety. Whatever it is, it isn't consistent right now. I happen to think his problem is mental, or anxiety-based because he has proven that he's able to make kicks that he misses routinely.

Your stats also revealed that he's the league leader in Kickoffs out of bounds. There's no excuse for that. We can't blame that on the defense or offensive line, so someone else suggested that it's our coaches fault for asking him to directional kick since he can't do it. That is ridiculous.

Building on that I would not have sent Magic Johnson to the line for technicals in his 2nd year (76%) but would have in 1988 or later when he converted at 90%. His stats show gradual improvement until he became THE BEST IN THE LEAGUE AT SHOOTING FREE THROWS.

This is a clever response to my "free throw" analogy. Credit you for that. But, c'mon Darth. Gano is no Magic Johnson. That's a s t r e t ch to say the least. Did you pull a hammy coming up with that?

Wow. You tallking about Chop Lowdriller? Chip Polekiller? Only felt close to like money for a year or two with the best holder in history. Other than that he was as shaky as Gano easily. I was at most of those games. I actually had the same feelings you describe for Gano:

This is where your argument goes weak. Yes. I am referencing Chip Lohmiller. Why? Because he made kicks when they counted. He had nerves of steel when the pressure was on. As a result, you can live with some of his misses. I think most of us would take Tebow's 7 wins over Grossman & Becks record. Tebow makes plays when it counts which is something you can always live with. A guy who disappears when you need him cannot be relied on to win.

Another weak point of this argument is that you (i) reference Lohmiller's percentages as they are--but you dig beneath the surface to justify Gano's misses. You can't have it both ways. Either the numbers tell the story, or you'd have to give other kickers the same benefits of doubt that you give Gano.

Finally, this part of your argument is weak because it supports my view. You're attributing Lohmiller's failures to the loss of the "best holder in history." Sounds like a "mitigating factor" aka 'excuse.' Would that not support the opinion that Lohmiller was a great kicker? Would that not support my argument that all kickers must deal with less than ideal conditions? If I follow your logic, I would simply say that had Lohmiller not had a bad holder, then he would be an 85% percent kicker. That's the same benefits you give to Gano. Why not Chip? We know why. Because you think it's a fact unfavorable to your argument.

Money, huh? It appears Gano's current year is better than all of Lohmiller's with Washington except 1990 and 1992 and the difference is less than one percentage point - aka - a pube.

Gano is better, even with the blocks! OMFG!

This is more weak argument about Lohmiller that is rrelevant to Gano. I brought up Chip because he was CLUTCH. He made kicks when they count and Gano doesn't. He made kicks with playoff implications and championships on the line. Would you trust Gano with that when he can't kick in the wind, or against the Cowboys? The important games late in the year are played in bad weather. That's just mother nature. Do you keep rolling with a guy who needs sunshine, no wind, a great snap, a great hold, and a symphony playing to make a clutch kick?? I wouldn't.

Are you going to go back on Lohmiller's stats and exclude the blocks, bad snaps, holds, weather conditions, and whatever other excuse?? No. I know why. Because that wouldn't support your argument. But, it's bare hypocrisy.

I never said I trusted him and I have the same concerns you voiced in these last two paragraphs.

DarthMonk

I think we are close to being in playoff contention, and I'm not willing to wait and see if Gano changes his mindset and becomes clutch. Stakes are too high. Some here are willing to take that risk. We can just agree to disagree on that.

So, if you concede that you don't trust Gano, what exactly is your point?

I love the Redskins. And, I love debating issues and learning something. Anything that makes you think is a good thing. Your post made me think. Since you said that you agree with my basic opinion about Gano having troubles that are more mental than based on his ability, I give you extra credit for arguing the position that other posters could not do effectively.

The Hogster wrote:Stand on your own Irn Bru

The irony... Hmm, is "irony" the word?

SkinsJock wrote:

Red_One43 wrote:

SkinsJock wrote:the guy kicking on this team next year is not going to determine if we get in the playoffs or not

I predict that next year our kicker will be called upon to make some clutch kicks that may determine whether we make the playoff or not.
I don't think that I am outon a limb predicting this. Every win will count next year to not only making the play-offs, but winning the division.

Of course, we will have a better picture of this after the FA period and draft.

You're right about the fact that there will be games that come down to making a kick - my point is more that there are a whole number of plays during the game that also are important - good teams put themselves in position to win and having a kicker who is able to handle that pressure is certainly a key ingredient
I did not mean to imply that kickers don't determine games although it looked like that - we are close to having a good team again and a guy that can make clutch kicks is certainly a part of that

ALL the kickers that compete for the job here should be looked at mostly for their ability to make clutch kicks

Gano has not had a good season but I believe he can be a good, clutch kicker

he will have a lot to prove here to keep his job

why cut him - Gano is here, he should be given a chance to compete - let him show that he can handle the pressure

Thanks for the clarification. I understand what you are saying - there are many more plays that have to happen to put kickers in the game winning or losing situation on their kicks.

Gano looked good today. I hope he keeps it up. We will see. Happy Holidays.

The Hogster wrote:Gano looked good today. I hope he keeps it up. We will see. Happy Holidays.

4 for 4 should drive that pct. up. Happy Holidays!

The Hogster wrote:
So, if you concede that you don't trust Gano, what exactly is your point?

I love the Redskins. And, I love debating issues and learning something. Anything that makes you think is a good thing. Your post made me think. Since you said that you agree with my basic opinion about Gano having troubles that are more mental than based on his ability, I give you extra credit for arguing the position that other posters could not do effectively.

I think you know my point(s) but in summary:

Opinion: No need to immediately release/cut - least of our problems and

Fact: Awesome upside.

Fact: He's improving.

Fact: Suffers from worst protection in the NFL.

Fact: After today he is top 10 in FG% on attempts not blocked. (5-7 from 50+)

ONLY question: Is he tough enough upstairs?

My answer:

Fact: Jury is out and

Opinion: we can afford to remain patient.


I'm ready to move on.

Thanks,

DarthMonk

DarthMonk wrote:

The Hogster wrote:
So, if you concede that you don't trust Gano, what exactly is your point?

I love the Redskins. And, I love debating issues and learning something. Anything that makes you think is a good thing. Your post made me think. Since you said that you agree with my basic opinion about Gano having troubles that are more mental than based on his ability, I give you extra credit for arguing the position that other posters could not do effectively.

I think you know my point(s) but in summary:

Opinion: No need to immediately release/cut - least of our problems and

Fact: Awesome upside.

Fact: He's improving.

Fact: Suffers from worst protection in the NFL.

Fact: After today he is top 10 in FG% on attempts not blocked. (5-7 from 50+)

ONLY question: Is he tough enough upstairs?

My answer:

Fact: Jury is out and

Opinion: we can afford to remain patient.


I'm ready to move on.

Thanks,

DarthMonk

+1

Happy Holidays!

The Hogster wrote:

Irn-Bru wrote:

DarthMonk wrote:

The Hogster wrote:Care to share the stats from 2010? Where he kicked 66%? I'll be ready for the excuses for those too.

I have both shared them and commented on them. I made no excuses. My conclusion (I wrote it) is "he's improving."

Isn't he?

The Hogster wrote:Red One makes good points. Ignore stats all you want, but they tell the story for a Kicker.

You seem confused. You admonish me to ignore stats all I want after I supply great stats which you seemingingly ignore or perhaps, do not understand.

Exactly. It's impossible to discuss this with someone if they refuse to acknowledge that you are even making an argument, much less addressing the argument itself.

Stand on your own Irn Bru. I ignore your "arguments" because they are weak. Merry Xmas.

Case in point.

DarthMonk wrote:Fact: After today he is top 10 in FG% on attempts not blocked. (5-7 from 50+)

ONLY question: Is he tough enough upstairs?

My answer:

Fact: Jury is out and

Opinion: we can afford to remain patient.

My opinion too, as is probably obvious. He looked good again today, which is encouraging.

Assuming he doesn't fall apart next week, I suspect that the coaches will share this opinion going into the offseason.

Irn-Bru wrote:

DarthMonk wrote:Fact: After today he is top 10 in FG% on attempts not blocked. (5-7 from 50+)

ONLY question: Is he tough enough upstairs?

My answer:

Fact: Jury is out and

Opinion: we can afford to remain patient.

My opinion too, as is probably obvious. He looked good again today, which is encouraging.

Assuming he doesn't fall apart next week, I suspect that the coaches will share this opinion going into the offseason.

+1

Good game today. We will see how his consistency plays out.

DarthMonk wrote:

The Hogster wrote:
So, if you concede that you don't trust Gano, what exactly is your point?

I love the Redskins. And, I love debating issues and learning something. Anything that makes you think is a good thing. Your post made me think. Since you said that you agree with my basic opinion about Gano having troubles that are more mental than based on his ability, I give you extra credit for arguing the position that other posters could not do effectively.

I think you know my point(s) but in summary:

Opinion: No need to immediately release/cut - least of our problems and

Fact: Awesome upside.

Fact: He's improving.

Fact: Suffers from worst protection in the NFL.

Fact: After today he is top 10 in FG% on attempts not blocked. (5-7 from 50+)

ONLY question: Is he tough enough upstairs?

My answer:

Fact: Jury is out and

Opinion: we can afford to remain patient.


I'm ready to move on.

Thanks,

DarthMonk

+1 Happy Holidays. Hopefully he will be consistent and can string together good performances. We will see.

Hogster - Your arguments are absurd!

You say I am "attempting to place blame that each miss on someone else." Not true. Only the blocks.

I DO "acknowledging that all Kickers must kick under less than ideal conditions." YOU fail to acknowledge that I do so.

Gano is improving, I provide stats, and you minimize/ignore them.

You say " every kicker in the league has to kick under the same adverse circumstances" and I have PROVEN that to be wrong.

It is also a FACT that Smith asks him to aim for the pylon. That being a bad or good idea is mostly OPINION.

You belittle my Magic Johnson analogy but it it irrefutable.

You completely blow it with Lohmiller. I never said what you say I did. I compare them on equal terms. Gano is his equal (or better) percentagewise INCLUDING BLOCKS!

By the way, the line just got blown up again for a block ... oh yeah, all kickers have to deal with 5 of those a year! Good grief!

Your response below was idiotoc.

DarthMonk

The Hogster wrote:DarthMonk Wrote:

This is an absurd misrepresentaion of my post twisted into your words in order to belittle facts and set up a straw man which you, of course, easily knock over. Gotcha.

Actually it is not. It's a pretty straightforward statement that you are looking at all of Gano's misses and attempting to place blame that each miss on someone else. You're doing this without acknowledging that all Kickers must kick under less than ideal conditions. All kickers must deal with (i) the snap, (ii) the hold, (iii) the weather, (iv) the defense. That's part of football.

I have both shared them and commented on them. I made no excuses. My conclusion (I wrote it) is "he's improving."

Isn't he?

Yes. If you consider going from 66% to 70% improving then I agree. You're giving him credit for things he's supposed to do as a professional. He's supposed to improve year to year. So is any other kicker in the league. Accordingly, this is pretty weak considering that his "improved performance" still places him near the worst in the league.

You seem confused. You admonish me to ignore stats all I want after I supply great stats which you seemingingly ignore or perhaps, do not understand.

No confusion here. Your stats are valid. However, you present them to suggest that Gano would be better but for various mishaps. No argument there. But, you all conveniently ignore that every kicker in the league has to kick under the same adverse circumstances, and under the same pressure. Gano has proven time and again, that his "big leg" doesn't show up in the clutch. Maybe it's, nerves, pressure, anxiety. Whatever it is, it isn't consistent right now. I happen to think his problem is mental, or anxiety-based because he has proven that he's able to make kicks that he misses routinely.

Your stats also revealed that he's the league leader in Kickoffs out of bounds. There's no excuse for that. We can't blame that on the defense or offensive line, so someone else suggested that it's our coaches fault for asking him to directional kick since he can't do it. That is ridiculous.

Building on that I would not have sent Magic Johnson to the line for technicals in his 2nd year (76%) but would have in 1988 or later when he converted at 90%. His stats show gradual improvement until he became THE BEST IN THE LEAGUE AT SHOOTING FREE THROWS.

This is a clever response to my "free throw" analogy. Credit you for that. But, c'mon Darth. Gano is no Magic Johnson. That's a s t r e t ch to say the least. Did you pull a hammy coming up with that?

Wow. You tallking about Chop Lowdriller? Chip Polekiller? Only felt close to like money for a year or two with the best holder in history. Other than that he was as shaky as Gano easily. I was at most of those games. I actually had the same feelings you describe for Gano:

This is where your argument goes weak. Yes. I am referencing Chip Lohmiller. Why? Because he made kicks when they counted. He had nerves of steel when the pressure was on. As a result, you can live with some of his misses. I think most of us would take Tebow's 7 wins over Grossman & Becks record. Tebow makes plays when it counts which is something you can always live with. A guy who disappears when you need him cannot be relied on to win.

Another weak point of this argument is that you (i) reference Lohmiller's percentages as they are--but you dig beneath the surface to justify Gano's misses. You can't have it both ways. Either the numbers tell the story, or you'd have to give other kickers the same benefits of doubt that you give Gano.

Finally, this part of your argument is weak because it supports my view. You're attributing Lohmiller's failures to the loss of the "best holder in history." Sounds like a "mitigating factor" aka 'excuse.' Would that not support the opinion that Lohmiller was a great kicker? Would that not support my argument that all kickers must deal with less than ideal conditions? If I follow your logic, I would simply say that had Lohmiller not had a bad holder, then he would be an 85% percent kicker. That's the same benefits you give to Gano. Why not Chip? We know why. Because you think it's a fact unfavorable to your argument.

Money, huh? It appears Gano's current year is better than all of Lohmiller's with Washington except 1990 and 1992 and the difference is less than one percentage point - aka - a pube.

Gano is better, even with the blocks! OMFG!

This is more weak argument about Lohmiller that is rrelevant to Gano. I brought up Chip because he was CLUTCH. He made kicks when they count and Gano doesn't. He made kicks with playoff implications and championships on the line. Would you trust Gano with that when he can't kick in the wind, or against the Cowboys? The important games late in the year are played in bad weather. That's just mother nature. Do you keep rolling with a guy who needs sunshine, no wind, a great snap, a great hold, and a symphony playing to make a clutch kick?? I wouldn't.

Are you going to go back on Lohmiller's stats and exclude the blocks, bad snaps, holds, weather conditions, and whatever other excuse?? No. I know why. Because that wouldn't support your argument. But, it's bare hypocrisy.

I never said I trusted him and I have the same concerns you voiced in these last two paragraphs.

DarthMonk

I think we are close to being in playoff contention, and I'm not willing to wait and see if Gano changes his mindset and becomes clutch. Stakes are too high. Some here are willing to take that risk. We can just agree to disagree on that.

So, if you concede that you don't trust Gano, what exactly is your point?

I love the Redskins. And, I love debating issues and learning something. Anything that makes you think is a good thing. Your post made me think. Since you said that you agree with my basic opinion about Gano having troubles that are more mental than based on his ability, I give you extra credit for arguing the position that other posters could not do effectively.

DarthMonk wrote:Hogster - Your arguments are absurd!

You say I am "attempting to place blame that each miss on someone else." Not true. Only the blocks.

I DO "acknowledging that all Kickers must kick under less than ideal conditions." YOU fail to acknowledge that I do so.

Gano is improving, I provide stats, and you minimize/ignore them.

You say " every kicker in the league has to kick under the same adverse circumstances" and I have PROVEN that to be wrong.

It is also a FACT that Smith asks him to aim for the pylon. That being a bad or good idea is mostly OPINION.

You belittle my Magic Johnson analogy but it it irrefutable.

You completely blow it with Lohmiller. I never said what you say I did. I compare them on equal terms. Gano is his equal (or better) percentagewise INCLUDING BLOCKS!

By the way, the line just got blown up again for a block ... oh yeah, all kickers have to deal with 5 of those a year! Good grief!

Your response below was idiotoc.

DarthMonk

The Hogster wrote:DarthMonk Wrote:

This is an absurd misrepresentaion of my post twisted into your words in order to belittle facts and set up a straw man which you, of course, easily knock over. Gotcha.

Actually it is not. It's a pretty straightforward statement that you are looking at all of Gano's misses and attempting to place blame that each miss on someone else. You're doing this without acknowledging that all Kickers must kick under less than ideal conditions. All kickers must deal with (i) the snap, (ii) the hold, (iii) the weather, (iv) the defense. That's part of football.

I have both shared them and commented on them. I made no excuses. My conclusion (I wrote it) is "he's improving."

Isn't he?

Yes. If you consider going from 66% to 70% improving then I agree. You're giving him credit for things he's supposed to do as a professional. He's supposed to improve year to year. So is any other kicker in the league. Accordingly, this is pretty weak considering that his "improved performance" still places him near the worst in the league.

You seem confused. You admonish me to ignore stats all I want after I supply great stats which you seemingingly ignore or perhaps, do not understand.

No confusion here. Your stats are valid. However, you present them to suggest that Gano would be better but for various mishaps. No argument there. But, you all conveniently ignore that every kicker in the league has to kick under the same adverse circumstances, and under the same pressure. Gano has proven time and again, that his "big leg" doesn't show up in the clutch. Maybe it's, nerves, pressure, anxiety. Whatever it is, it isn't consistent right now. I happen to think his problem is mental, or anxiety-based because he has proven that he's able to make kicks that he misses routinely.

Your stats also revealed that he's the league leader in Kickoffs out of bounds. There's no excuse for that. We can't blame that on the defense or offensive line, so someone else suggested that it's our coaches fault for asking him to directional kick since he can't do it. That is ridiculous.

Building on that I would not have sent Magic Johnson to the line for technicals in his 2nd year (76%) but would have in 1988 or later when he converted at 90%. His stats show gradual improvement until he became THE BEST IN THE LEAGUE AT SHOOTING FREE THROWS.

This is a clever response to my "free throw" analogy. Credit you for that. But, c'mon Darth. Gano is no Magic Johnson. That's a s t r e t ch to say the least. Did you pull a hammy coming up with that?

Wow. You tallking about Chop Lowdriller? Chip Polekiller? Only felt close to like money for a year or two with the best holder in history. Other than that he was as shaky as Gano easily. I was at most of those games. I actually had the same feelings you describe for Gano:

This is where your argument goes weak. Yes. I am referencing Chip Lohmiller. Why? Because he made kicks when they counted. He had nerves of steel when the pressure was on. As a result, you can live with some of his misses. I think most of us would take Tebow's 7 wins over Grossman & Becks record. Tebow makes plays when it counts which is something you can always live with. A guy who disappears when you need him cannot be relied on to win.

Another weak point of this argument is that you (i) reference Lohmiller's percentages as they are--but you dig beneath the surface to justify Gano's misses. You can't have it both ways. Either the numbers tell the story, or you'd have to give other kickers the same benefits of doubt that you give Gano.

Finally, this part of your argument is weak because it supports my view. You're attributing Lohmiller's failures to the loss of the "best holder in history." Sounds like a "mitigating factor" aka 'excuse.' Would that not support the opinion that Lohmiller was a great kicker? Would that not support my argument that all kickers must deal with less than ideal conditions? If I follow your logic, I would simply say that had Lohmiller not had a bad holder, then he would be an 85% percent kicker. That's the same benefits you give to Gano. Why not Chip? We know why. Because you think it's a fact unfavorable to your argument.

Money, huh? It appears Gano's current year is better than all of Lohmiller's with Washington except 1990 and 1992 and the difference is less than one percentage point - aka - a pube.

Gano is better, even with the blocks! OMFG!

This is more weak argument about Lohmiller that is rrelevant to Gano. I brought up Chip because he was CLUTCH. He made kicks when they count and Gano doesn't. He made kicks with playoff implications and championships on the line. Would you trust Gano with that when he can't kick in the wind, or against the Cowboys? The important games late in the year are played in bad weather. That's just mother nature. Do you keep rolling with a guy who needs sunshine, no wind, a great snap, a great hold, and a symphony playing to make a clutch kick?? I wouldn't.

Are you going to go back on Lohmiller's stats and exclude the blocks, bad snaps, holds, weather conditions, and whatever other excuse?? No. I know why. Because that wouldn't support your argument. But, it's bare hypocrisy.

I never said I trusted him and I have the same concerns you voiced in these last two paragraphs.

DarthMonk

I think we are close to being in playoff contention, and I'm not willing to wait and see if Gano changes his mindset and becomes clutch. Stakes are too high. Some here are willing to take that risk. We can just agree to disagree on that.

So, if you concede that you don't trust Gano, what exactly is your point?

I love the Redskins. And, I love debating issues and learning something. Anything that makes you think is a good thing. Your post made me think. Since you said that you agree with my basic opinion about Gano having troubles that are more mental than based on his ability, I give you extra credit for arguing the position that other posters could not do effectively.

Educate yourself. Start with this thread, then move to actual football games. Everything that I needed to say in order to destroy your weak argument has been said in this thread. You debate like a 5 year old. You're trying to stretch facts to fit your agenda. They don't.

Case in point, your lame argument that Gano should be given credit for the blocked kicks. You automatically assume that those kicks would have been good if they weren't blocked. Hey genius, if the stats hold up--he probably only hits 2-3 out of those 5. But, because you lack analytical ability, you're just going to add 5 makes to his percentages. Did Santa bring you everything you wanted this year Darth??

Good grief.