The-Hogs.net - Washington Football Discussion, Redskins to Commanders Era

Redskin in Canada wrote:So, somebody is LYING, I wonder who?

Well, I don't speak French and maybe French is an unambiguous language, but English isn't. It's very possible Kyle thought he'd let McNabb know it was possible he was going to sit him at some point but McNabb didn't get that, maybe with some help from not wanting to. McNabb's story even sounds like that was implied if not stated. Yeah, they came and talked to me about my injuries and lack of ability to practice all out, but I had no freaking idea in any way that meant I I may not play each and every snap no matter what happens. What's up with that? I don't get it?

It not only isn't a case someone must have lied, it really looks like no one lied. I'm sure they'd both pass a lie detector on that minor and obvious point that the discussion of concern might mean sitting him at some point or might not.

KazooSkinsFan wrote:

Redskin in Canada wrote:So, somebody is LYING, I wonder who?

Well, I don't speak French and maybe French is an unambiguous language, but English isn't. It's very possible Kyle thought he'd let McNabb know it was possible he was going to sit him at some point but McNabb didn't get that, maybe with some help from not wanting to. McNabb's story even sounds like that was implied if not stated. Yeah, they came and talked to me about my injuries and lack of ability to practice all out, but I had no freaking idea in any way that meant I I may not play each and every snap no matter what happens. What's up with that? I don't get it?

It not only isn't a case someone must have lied, it really looks like no one lied. I'm sure they'd both pass a lie detector on that minor and obvious point that the discussion of concern might mean sitting him at some point or might not.

So you're putting this solely on McNabb? I just want to make sure I'm clear on it.

VetSkinsFan wrote:

KazooSkinsFan wrote:

Redskin in Canada wrote:So, somebody is LYING, I wonder who?

Well, I don't speak French and maybe French is an unambiguous language, but English isn't. It's very possible Kyle thought he'd let McNabb know it was possible he was going to sit him at some point but McNabb didn't get that, maybe with some help from not wanting to. McNabb's story even sounds like that was implied if not stated. Yeah, they came and talked to me about my injuries and lack of ability to practice all out, but I had no freaking idea in any way that meant I I may not play each and every snap no matter what happens. What's up with that? I don't get it?

It not only isn't a case someone must have lied, it really looks like no one lied. I'm sure they'd both pass a lie detector on that minor and obvious point that the discussion of concern might mean sitting him at some point or might not.

So you're putting this solely on McNabb? I just want to make sure I'm clear on it.

KazooSkinsFan wrote:

VetSkinsFan wrote:

KazooSkinsFan wrote:

Redskin in Canada wrote:So, somebody is LYING, I wonder who?

Well, I don't speak French and maybe French is an unambiguous language, but English isn't. It's very possible Kyle thought he'd let McNabb know it was possible he was going to sit him at some point but McNabb didn't get that, maybe with some help from not wanting to. McNabb's story even sounds like that was implied if not stated. Yeah, they came and talked to me about my injuries and lack of ability to practice all out, but I had no freaking idea in any way that meant I I may not play each and every snap no matter what happens. What's up with that? I don't get it?

It not only isn't a case someone must have lied, it really looks like no one lied. I'm sure they'd both pass a lie detector on that minor and obvious point that the discussion of concern might mean sitting him at some point or might not.

So you're putting this solely on McNabb? I just want to make sure I'm clear on it.

You're wiley with the words and I don't want to twist your words, and lately I've been accused of having a learning disability, so I wanted to make sure I was completely understanding your point. Humor me and answer the question; it would have been quicker to just say yes or no instead of quoting, highlighting, and bolding text, but as usual, you took the winded way.

VetSkinsFan wrote:

KazooSkinsFan wrote:

VetSkinsFan wrote:

KazooSkinsFan wrote:

Redskin in Canada wrote:So, somebody is LYING, I wonder who?

Well, I don't speak French and maybe French is an unambiguous language, but English isn't. It's very possible Kyle thought he'd let McNabb know it was possible he was going to sit him at some point but McNabb didn't get that, maybe with some help from not wanting to. McNabb's story even sounds like that was implied if not stated. Yeah, they came and talked to me about my injuries and lack of ability to practice all out, but I had no freaking idea in any way that meant I I may not play each and every snap no matter what happens. What's up with that? I don't get it?

It not only isn't a case someone must have lied, it really looks like no one lied. I'm sure they'd both pass a lie detector on that minor and obvious point that the discussion of concern might mean sitting him at some point or might not.

So you're putting this solely on McNabb? I just want to make sure I'm clear on it.

You're wiley with the words and I don't want to twist your words, and lately I've been accused of having a learning disability, so I wanted to make sure I was completely understanding your point. Humor me and answer the question; it would have been quicker to just say yes or no instead of quoting, highlighting, and bolding text, but as usual, you took the winded way.

If you'd have said "more" on McNabb I'd say yes. Even in his story, Kyle talked to him about concern about his injuries and inability to fully practice, isn't it a short hop at that point to you may sit?

But I have no issue with McNabb in this either. He's the starter, he wants to play and he didn't say anything angry or bitter to Kyle or even deny he knew it was possible. He only said he didn't hear him say it outright from what I've read.

But how you got "soley" on McNabb from what I wrote is even more perplexing then their purported disconnect. I highlighted pretty direct quotes that say it's not "soley" McNabb. Just read the last sentence again: "it really looks like no one lied. I'm sure they'd both pass a lie detector on that minor and obvious point that the discussion of concern might mean sitting him at some point or might not." How can you possibly get I'm soley blaming McNabb from that?

On if he would have preferred Mike Shanahan tell him before the game that he might get pulled:

“No. Why go into the game with any more things on your mind? That’s just like you guys writing a great article and your employer says, ‘I’m not going to put it in.’ Then you say, ‘Well, why didn’t you tell me? I wouldn’t have wasted my time.’ I have a job to do and I try to do it to the fullest and make sure these guys understand what I set to do.”

http://www.the-hogs.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=35649

English is not an ambiguous language ... unless anybody wishes to spin a quote to try to dismiss a mistake or a lie.

kaz wrote:I only refuted the "lie" and never said it wasn't a mistake. Pulling him was a bone head move. But what is the "lie?" I also think the reaction to all this is hugely overblown. But once it was then Mikey really needed to get everyone together and get the story straight rather then continuing to shoot from the hip and make more contradictory statements.

On the overblown to clarify, I was referring to the McNabb comment on when Kyle came to him and discussed his concern over his injuries and lack of full practice McNabb said he didn't hear the word "benching" or a synonym for that. I think the decision to bench him at that point in a winnable game is a huge deal and not being overblown. I think the issue is how it possibly made sense to do that, not how Kyle phrased the obvious conclusion from a discussion they had before the game.

Had Kyle sat him at the beginning of the game or after half time it would have been a pertinent discussion. To bench him for a cold QB with under two minutes is just inexplicable.

KazooSkinsFan wrote:But what is the "lie?"

Read the thread. Kyle says explicitly Donovan was told he might be pulled out.

Donovan says he was never told such thing.

Somebody is lying.

KazooSkinsFan wrote:I also think the reaction to all this is hugely overblown. But once it was then Mikey really needed to get everyone together and get the story straight rather then continuing to shoot from the hip and make more contradictory statements.

It was overblown, not by the call itself but for the subsequent contradictory and ridiculous explanations given by the two Shanahans and the statements made by Macnabb. They mismanaged the aftermath to the point of national criticism and ridicule.

They have some damage control to do. Will they? I trust they will. They better ...


You changed your post while I was answering. I am not making these statements of yours up.

Redskin in Canada wrote:

KazooSkinsFan wrote:But what is the "lie?"

Read the thread. Kyle says explicitly Donovan was told he might be pulled out.

Donovan says he was never told such thing.

Somebody is lying

The conclusion was so freaking obvious by McNabb's own story the exact words used aren't even relevant much less reaching the level of "lie." The only perplexing thing is why Kyle would do it at that moment down by six points with time to drive for a winning TD inserting a guy who hadn't played for two years or whatever it is now. That...was just a bone head move. My thought at the time was it's kinda early to play for a draft pick. Seriously.

KazooSkinsFan wrote:

VetSkinsFan wrote:

KazooSkinsFan wrote:

VetSkinsFan wrote:

KazooSkinsFan wrote:

Redskin in Canada wrote:So, somebody is LYING, I wonder who?

Well, I don't speak French and maybe French is an unambiguous language, but English isn't. It's very possible Kyle thought he'd let McNabb know it was possible he was going to sit him at some point but McNabb didn't get that, maybe with some help from not wanting to. McNabb's story even sounds like that was implied if not stated. Yeah, they came and talked to me about my injuries and lack of ability to practice all out, but I had no freaking idea in any way that meant I I may not play each and every snap no matter what happens. What's up with that? I don't get it?

It not only isn't a case someone must have lied, it really looks like no one lied. I'm sure they'd both pass a lie detector on that minor and obvious point that the discussion of concern might mean sitting him at some point or might not.

So you're putting this solely on McNabb? I just want to make sure I'm clear on it.

You're wiley with the words and I don't want to twist your words, and lately I've been accused of having a learning disability, so I wanted to make sure I was completely understanding your point. Humor me and answer the question; it would have been quicker to just say yes or no instead of quoting, highlighting, and bolding text, but as usual, you took the winded way.

If you'd have said "more" on McNabb I'd say yes. Even in his story, Kyle talked to him about concern about his injuries and inability to fully practice, isn't it a short hop at that point to you may sit?

But I have no issue with McNabb in this either. He's the starter, he wants to play and he didn't say anything angry or bitter to Kyle or even deny he knew it was possible. He only said he didn't hear him say it outright from what I've read.

But how you got "soley" on McNabb from what I wrote is even more perplexing then their purported disconnect. I highlighted pretty direct quotes that say it's not "soley" McNabb. Just read the last sentence again: "it really looks like no one lied. I'm sure they'd both pass a lie detector on that minor and obvious point that the discussion of concern might mean sitting him at some point or might not." How can you possibly get I'm soley blaming McNabb from that?

B/c it was wishy washy and a lot of long-winded middle of the road crap. The first quote does, in fact, suggest that Kyle told him but whether he's too stupid or just didn't want to hear it, he doesn't recall or acknowledge it. Too much tapdancing and not enough direct speak is why i bypass all the longwinded BS.

VetSkinsFan wrote:B/c it was wishy washy and a lot of long-winded middle of the road crap. The first quote does, in fact, suggest that Kyle told him but whether he's too stupid or just didn't want to hear it, he doesn't recall or acknowledge it. Too much tapdancing and not enough direct speak is why i bypass all the longwinded BS.

Well, since you bypassed all the long winded BS, you should have skipped all that and just seen the last sentence where I said they were both speaking the truth as they recalled it, clearly a statement it's not "soley" anyone's fault.

You also have to give me credit for efficiency. I reached the status of "long winded BS" in only five sentences. I....am.....good....

KazooSkinsFan wrote:The conclusion was so freaking obvious by McNabb's own story the exact words used aren't even relevant much less reaching the level of "lie."

Yep, Macnab is not only out of shape, has cardio problems, does not know the 2 minute offense, was injured, was told that he would be pulled out but ...

... he is so stupid that he cannot understand the obvious.

You know what? ... we better put this incident behind because every single "explanation" given by the coaches, Donovan or some posters in this thread make things worse.

Redskin in Canada wrote:

KazooSkinsFan wrote:The conclusion was so freaking obvious by McNabb's own story the exact words used aren't even relevant much less reaching the level of "lie."

Yep, Macnab is not only out of shape, has cardio problems, does not know the 2 minute offense, was injured, was told that he would be pulled out but ...

... he is so stupid that he cannot understand the obvious.

You know what? ... we better put this incident behind because every single "explanation" given by the coaches, Donovan or some posters in this thread make things worse.

Ignoring your need to put words in my mouth is a pretty clear indication you're aware your argument is weak, I have a question. So seriously, "stupidity" is the only reason you could think of why he may not have thought they'd ever sit him in a game even when they talked to him about concerns over injuries and practice times? And BTW, I even said he didn't "want" to hear it, which BTW isn't "stupidity." Why do you think a competitive lifetime starting QB might not want to hear they might have to sit a bit at some point RiC?

... spin can only take you so far Kazoo. It is not a substitute for FACTS.

I hope that no other "explanation" is given any further by members of the Team. Let them lick their wounds and move on.

Letting J. Russell go back home without a contract might help, unless they want him as an O Lineman. God knows we need more than one.

Countertrey wrote:

markshark84 wrote:

Skinsfan55 wrote:
The guy is the best quarterback the Redskins have had in 25 years,

And that is where you need to put on the brakes.

Although I understand what you are saying, we need to judge DMc as he is now, and not what he was with PHILLY (because if that isn't the case, we would have to consider Brunell). I would put Mark Rypien and (if you count it) Theismann absolutely above DMc. There is the arguement for Trent Green and Brad Johnson (if you take the Brad Johnson we had when he lead us into the playoffs) also -- but those are tough calls.

What happened to Rypien when he left?

Personally, I think you need to go back 38 years to find a better quarterback... McNabb, warts and all, is the best QB we have had since Jurgy.

This isn't something that is highly publized, but one of the MAJOR reasons Rypien's output deminished after the '91 season was that he severly separated his shoulder in the '91 pro bowl game. He basically needed to learn a new way to throw the ball due to the injury. Also, in '92 Rypien hurt his knee, and IMHO, was never the same.

Besides, what Rypien did when he left is irrevelant in this case. If you are making the determination of whether a particular QB is the best QB the SKINS have had in 25 years, you should only look to what that person has done in for the SKINS.

Right not, I don't know how you can say that based on DMc's performance up to this point, that he is having one of the best seasons or careers of a WAS QB in the past 25 years.

Redskin in Canada wrote:... spin can only take you so far Kazoo. It is not a substitute for FACTS.

Right back at you, my friend. Actually this makes no logical sense at all. The only one who made an accusation in this whole argument was Y-O-U. I said it's explainable as neither one lied. How does it make sense to say I'm spinning and substituting spin for facts when I'm not even making an argument, just saying I don't accept your statement a lie was told as fact?

KazooSkinsFan wrote:

Redskin in Canada wrote:... spin can only take you so far Kazoo. It is not a substitute for FACTS.

Right back at you my friend...

Let me refresh your memory:

Mike Shanahan himself declared to the media that Donovan did not know in advance that he would be pulled out in the last two minutes. Donovan confirmed the Mike Shanahan version. Check the interviews. These statements put the two Shanahans at odds.

If you add to that the other evident contradictions between the Sunday and Monday Press Conferences ... you end up with a mess.

But I do not want to make this mess bigger than it is. I want to move on.

Redskin in Canada wrote:

KazooSkinsFan wrote:

Redskin in Canada wrote:... spin can only take you so far Kazoo. It is not a substitute for FACTS.

Right back at you my friend...

Let me refresh your memory:

Mike Shanahan himself declared to the media that Donovan did not know in advance that he would be pulled out in the last two minutes. Donovan confirmed the Mike Shanahan version. Check the interviews. These statements put the two Shanahans at odds.

If you add to that the other evident contradictions between the Sunday and Monday Press Conferences ... you end up with a mess.

But I do not want to make this mess bigger than it is. I want to move on.

I'm with you on finding an end game to this, but a clarification. It was not my understanding Kyle said he'd be pulled in the last two minutes, only that he said he could be pulled at some point. Are you said Kyle said he told Donovan he could specifically be pulled in the last two minutes? I hadn't noticed that quote. And I agree if that's the contention then it's a lot harder to explain. I also think they mismanaged this whole thing. The comms with McNabb before and after the game, the "explanation," dealing with the media. But I haven't seen a "lie" and I consider it a serious accusation that should be backed up with more then the assumption that something that's not clear or well considered was an intentional fabrication.

Sunday it was b/c of lack of terminology. Monday it was health. Sounds like a lie on Sunday or Monday to me.

I could care less

Mike screwed up big time because the switch that he hoped might work absolutelt did not AND it made him look stupid - then he and Kyle compounded the screw up big time - then they made even bigger fools of themselves - OK that's done

hopefully the players and the coaches can get on with getting ready for the Eagles and let the media and any other idiots that want to make something more of this than already exists have a lot of fun - hopefully the idiots can find a lot more things to justify their stupid reasoning for why did we do this and why did we give up those picks

Shanahan only needs to do 2 things - Shut up AND find a way to win the next game - let the idiots and the media come up with whatever makes them happy

Relax guys they are all liars http://www.bangcartoon.com/2004/passingfancy.htm

Never expect the truth...

This is a clear case of conflict of interest.


Snyder should have made it clear to not allow Shanahan to coach with his own son.
What if Kyle is doing a bad job? Would Mike fire him? Of course not.
Not saying that Kyle is doing a bad job. Our offensive line, lack of running game and receivers is the real problem.


On a serious note. I dont think Mike would treat his son the Offensive Coordinator the same way he would a non family member.
If Mike had anyone else other then his son. He would probably take over playcalling. No it is his son and he treats him different and approaches things different with him.

Me personally I would never allow a Father and son combo working on the same coaching staff. Especially the Head coach and offensive coordinator.

I'm sorry - I don't agree

The Redskins FO brought in the OC who just happened to have the #1 offense in the NFL - Mike did not hire his son!

I do think that a lot of what Kyle is doing is totally supported and influenced by Mike but this guy is recognized as being a good offensive line coach and getting a lot out of his offenses

I also think that if Mike & Bruce feel that Kyle is not doing the job that he is capable of, he will be let go

nobody is "protected' here - everybody is accountable


we are coming off a long period of bad management and it is going to take time to fix the damage done by dumb and dumber - we still look like a 8-8 or 9-7 team and that would be fantastic - IMO we are already improved from where we were at the begining of this year

SkinsJock wrote:we are coming off a long period of bad management and it is going to take time to fix the damage done by dumb and dumber - we still look like a 8-8 or 9-7 team and that would be fantastic - IMO we are already improved from where we were at the begining of this year

I agree and think that's what we have to keep coming back to.

I think it was a very bad call to put in Grossman but we all need to move on and just like in life, learn from the mistakes we make

HOPEFULLY the players and coaches are on the same page - that is all I would be concerned about


this is being analyzed and scrutinized and theorized by everyone - it's really just a stupid mistake, compounded by stupid, ignorant comments and stirred up by a lot of anti media and fans

I really think it's blown way out of proportion - all these guys need to do in the next week is figure out some way to win this next game and the most important part of ensuring that IMO will be to come up with a plan to better protect McNabb. We certainly don't need to see Grossman out there and we know that the Eagles will try to put as much pressure on McNabb as possible



all this other BS is just that - BS