The-Hogs.net - Washington Football Discussion, Redskins to Commanders Era

Stat's don't tell the whole story but they say a lot. He's effectively moved the ball but in the redzone, the WHOLE OFFENSE has struggled. I just can't believe that people would actually blame Jason Campbell solely for the lack of redzone production.

Californiaskin wrote:yep its easymoney for me!

At least we'll both be happy, you'll get to see him play out the rest of the year...

and I wont have to deal with him playing QB for my team after this year...

Easymoney indeed!

EasyMoney wrote:

Californiaskin wrote:yep its easymoney for me!

At least we'll both be happy, you'll get to see him play out the rest of the year...

and I wont have to deal with him playing QB for my team after this year...

Easymoney indeed!

haha yep unless dude starts lightin it up the end zone then ull be stuck with him (apparentlyeven that would make most here unhappy)

Isn't that crazy. I think a lot on here would rather see us fail than for JC have success?

Californiaskin wrote: haha yep unless dude starts lightin it up the end zone then ull be stuck with him (apparentlyeven that would make most here unhappy)

I want nothing more than for that to happen but he's hasn't given me a reason to believe he will so...

I'll never wish anything bad on my team.

3 really awful defenses in a row are coming up, no excuses. We'll see what he does.

frankcal20 wrote:Isn't that crazy. I think a lot on here would rather see us fail than for JC have success?

frank cal.........I unfortunately concur

EasyMoney wrote:

Californiaskin wrote: haha yep unless dude starts lightin it up the end zone then ull be stuck with him (apparentlyeven that would make most here unhappy)

I want nothing more than for that to happen but he's hasn't given me a reason to believe he will so...

I'll never wish anything bad on my team.

3 really awful defenses in a row are coming up, no excuses. We'll see what he does.

yep...to your point id like more tds from soup......and a w against the bucs!

KazooSkinsFan wrote:

markshark84 wrote:And you are, to a degree, correct in that the redzone is the most difficult part of the field to gain yardage and score TDs -- but, JC has not been capable of this. So what is your arguement --- is it that JC cannot convert points in the most difficult part of the field? That he cannot step up his game when the going gets tough?

Sorry about the thud, it was my head hitting the desk in boredom because I keep answering this question and you keep missing it. And again, I am not particularly pro-JC, I am only arguing he's a better shot then a career backup.

Read it again, I'll type slower this time. If you disagree, fine, but stop missing it.

Being the hardest part of the field means that it's the last step... Your argument is steady state, that quarterbacks come into the league and they are like a lamp, they work or they don't. That isn't how it works, they progress. If JC can move the ball INTO the Red Zone, scoring TDs is the NEXT step. I am hoping he can take that step and only arguing that if he does he's better then TC, not Tom Brady.

I guess I was over-estimating you. I thought I was missing something, but I guess not. What you are saying is the most foolish arguement I have heard on here is a while -- and one which I have actually already addressed but will provide a more thorough explanation. But, more or less, I disagree with the premise of your arguement in that scoring in the redzone is a "progression" or "the next step".

I will try to say it in other words here: of course QBs progress; it is part of the position, BUT JC HAS NOT PROGRESSED -- as I stated in my last couple posts; perhaps you missed it -- but I have consistently said this. Being able to move the ball into the redzone and being able to score ARE TWO VERY DIFFERENT THINGS. They are not part of a QB progression. They are not connected as much as you appear to believe. Good QBs know how to finish this purported "step", bad ones don't. THIS IS JC'S FIFTH YEAR IN THE LEAGUE. HE SHOULD BE DONE WITH HIS PROGRESSIONS REGARDLESS!!! HE HASN'T BEEN ABLE TO SCORE FOR 5 YEARS, WHEN IS HE GOING TO "PROGRESS". He is considered a league veteran now.

Regardless of this fact, I don't think that ability to score in the redzone is a "progression" or the "next step" in a QB process. If I can analogize this to golf --- just because you can drive the ball 350 yards, doesn't mean you can putt (and yes, that is how different I think redzone and nonredzone play are). Pocket awareness, ability to hit receivers in stride, reading defenses and calling audibles, time management, hooking up with receivers and knowing every offensive players role for a particular play, adjusting to NFL speed, etc. -- those are learned progressions. The ability to score is not learned. It is God-given. It appears JC wasn't blessed with that. Do you think that Favre or Eli & Peyton Manning or Rivers or Rothlesberger or McNabb or Brady (the list goes on and on) "progressed" into being more effective in the redzone or needed additional time to make that "last step"? Absolutley not. Their TD production has been consistent throughout their career.

I appreciate your false hope, but I think that the prior five years was enough for me to come to the conclusion that JC doesn't have the ability to consistently score TDs. I guess you are still on the "wait and see" boat.

We will just agree to disagree on the TC thing. I can respect that.

The fact that you pursued Mr. Cutler says it all about how your coaches/GM etc... feel about JC. To be fair the bucs wanted him also, instead we got our future QB in Josh. Freeman or Johnson, who knows?

Who knows about the Buc's at this point and their QB position. I think they are afraid to put in Freeman at this point because there is no point in putting a kid in there that is destined to fail. If he had a better overall team around him, then I would say play him but you don't have that choice right now.

Anyone see Garcia getting released?

This is what I see. I think that Joe Gibbs came in and built the Redskins to play strong defense, have a crushing running game, and have a passing game that would move the chains. Once you got into the red zone, I think Gibbs intended to just pound the ball into the end zone. Jason Campbell was drafted, and nurtured under Joe Gibbs, to be a game managing QB. That is, a guy who would keep the chains moving and wouldn't make game-killing mistakes. While I think Campbell shows all the signs of being a great game manager (he just doesn't turn the ball over much), that's not what this team needs.

Unfortunately, the team never quite worked out that way under Campbell. After 2005, our running game was never quite that dominant in the red zone, and the front line got old, fast. Instead, we more had to rely on the passing game, and on Campbell to become more than just a a game manager, and into a play maker. Unfortunately, he's shown me no evidence that he's capable of doing that. Sure, his stats are up, but he's so cautious he won't take risks.

However, you put Campbell on the Panthers of last year, and you are maybe talking a Superbowl team, simply because he could lean on that defense and running game, and he would not have thrown 5 picks against the Eagles like Delhomme did, which almost singlehandedly lost the game for them.

But we're not that team. We're a team that can't run the ball, and our supposed strong suit (defense) totally collapsed in the last game. We need someone to make plays in the passing game, and in my opinion, right now, Campbell is the wrong guy for this job. Not saying Collins is the right guy, but I know Campbell isn't right. Wish that Colt wasn't injured anymore so we could see what a young guy could do.

PulpExposure wrote:Wish that Colt wasn't injured anymore so we could see what a young guy could do.

You have all that measured, rational analysis and end with this? Colt was never more then a message board fantasy and the team putting him on IR was because there was no reality. If there were any possible way they'd consider playing him now if he were healthy he'd be on the roster, his season wouldn't have been over before game 1.

Well, I'm going to start by invalidating my argument with a few people here, because I just don't get to WATCH many Redskins games over here - I have radio, and I have stats. For years, I've had to make do with judging players and teams by stats. And so it is with Jason Campbell, and this Redskins team.

Obviously, the most important stat is in the two columns marked W and L, and by that measure, this TEAM is failing. By virtue of being the starting QB on the team, Campbell is therefore failing to deliver on the most important factor. It's pretty clear by now that Campbell isn't a Manning, an Elway or a Marino - he isn't going to go out and single handedly win games with no running game to help out, and without a strong defence.

But I'm sorry - from my distant viewpoint, I can only judge the rest of his play by those stats. True, the QB rating is a blunt measure of performance, and also true is the fact that the west coast offence is perfect for padding out a QB's stats. But the stats I see tell me that Campbell is an average QB. Not great, not even very good, but better than trash, and not even just plain bad. He's average. Those misleading stats might make some think he's actually one of the better ones in the league, I don't agree with that, any more than I agree with those who prefer to simply disregard those stats.

Jason Campbell is undeniably not going out and winning games for us right now, but I don't think he's losing us any games either. This TEAM simply isn't good enough right now. We can't run the ball, we can't stop the opposition. I mean, seriously, the Lions drove 99 yards for a TD! That does NOT happen to a good defence, even allowing for Zorn's decision to take that penalty on 3rd down instead of settling for conceding a likely three points.

The vilification of Campbell is over the top. Criticism of aspects of his play are fair, but it still cracks me up how the first knee jerk of so many people is to replace the QB. He's the best we have. You might not like it, but that's the way it is.

I just can't believe that people would actually blame Jason Campbell solely for the lack of redzone production.

Nobody is saying that JC is the sole problem. There are lots of problems with this offense, with an overall lack of talent being right at the top of the list. We have horrible play calling, a joke of an offensive line, no speed in the backfield, and no consistent threat among our wide receivers. Changes need to be made across the board on offense, but it needs to start at the qb position. JC has been in the NFL for 5 years now yet is being outplayed by much younger qb's and during his time in the league he has only improved marginally. He is afraid to make mistakes, still is slow making reads and getting rid of the ball, has awful pocket awareness, and can't throw the deep ball. These are all problems that he's had since day 1 and he continues to struggle in all of these areas. It's time for him to go.

And see while I agree with most of your post - I think that he's the least of our concern on offense - Tim Ryan agree's. If we had a healthier O line, a good RB by committee and the WR's stepped up, ran their routes correctly then I along with Tim Ryan believe that JC can lead this team to the playoffs.

What I'm heard from the guys on NFL Radio is that one of the biggest issues is no so much the play that was called, but how the play is set up. They said that if ey is being double covered on almost every play, why would you run to his side. That's what we have done on both 4th down TD attempts. Their thoughts was to bring in an extra lineman over there to the left next to Samuels (Alexander) have our top blocking WR (have no clue here) and the other 2 (cooley lined up wide) along with Kelly to the right. Then you crash Sellers. They also said you can split Seller's to the LOS and then have him crack back to a lbr.

But overall, they said it's not so much the plays we've ran, it's how we set them up.

YOUR THOUGHTS???

frankcal20 wrote:And see while I agree with most of your post - I think that he's the least of our concern on offense - Tim Ryan agree's. If we had a healthier O line, a good RB by committee and the WR's stepped up, ran their routes correctly then I along with Tim Ryan believe that JC can lead this team to the playoffs.

What I don't understand about these statements are that what you said is obvious --- except for your conclusion: if all those things happened JC WOULD NOT BE "LEADING" US TO THE PLAYOFFS. If we had all those things, 99% of the QBs in the league "could get us to the playoffs". So why would we stay with JC when anyone would do? If this all happened, who cares who the QB is.

But, looking forward, JC should be our biggest concern because: first, he is our QB and purported leader of the offense, second, because he and his offense are grossly underperforming, and lastly, because when compared to all other offensive players, if JC were to improve on his lackluster season, all other members of the offense, in turn would improve. JC is the one person that would create the greatest cost-benefit in terms of an upgrade at any offensive position -- a position that is currently underperforming. If the OL improved, it still would be on JC to perform. If the running game were to improve, it still would be up to JC to lead the team and supplement the running game with a passing attack. BUT, if JC were to step up, the OL wouldn't see constant blitz packages and the running game would open up due to obvious reasons.

And in terms of WRs, JC has been missing open guys downfield all season. The WRs are not underperforming, the guy throwing the balll to them is. Here is a great example (and this is just in the 4th quarter when he was apparently doing well):

http://www.extremeskins.com/showthread.php?t=301745

markshark84 wrote:

frankcal20 wrote:And see while I agree with most of your post - I think that he's the least of our concern on offense - Tim Ryan agree's. If we had a healthier O line, a good RB by committee and the WR's stepped up, ran their routes correctly then I along with Tim Ryan believe that JC can lead this team to the playoffs.

What I don't understand about these statements are that what you said is obvious --- except for your conclusion: if all those things happened JC WOULD NOT BE "LEADING" US TO THE PLAYOFFS -- THE SUPPORTING CAST WOULD. If we had all those things, 99% of the QBs in the league "could get us to the playoffs".

But, looking forward, JC should be our biggest concern because: first, he is our QB and purported leader of the offense, second, because he is grossly underperforming, and lastly, because when compared to all other offensive players, if JC were to improve on his lackluster season, all other members of the offense, in turn would improve. JC is the one person that would create the greatest cost-benefit in terms of an upgrade at any offensive position -- a position that is currently underperforming. If the OL improved, it still would be on JC to perform. If the running game were to improve, it still would be up to JC to lead the team and supplement the running game with a passing attack. BUT, if JC were to step up, the OL wouldn't see constant blitz packages and the running game would open up due to obvious reasons.

But Markysharky...statistics show that campbell is'nt the biggest concern, that other qbs on winning teams are prforming compartively and that really its just your opinion (and a few others) that dudes underpreforming.....even though the stats show hes not

Californiaskin wrote:But Markysharky...statistics show that campbell is'nt the biggest concern, that other qbs on winning teams are prforming compartively and that really its just your opinion (and a few others) that dudes underpreforming.....even though the stats show hes not

You seriously have to be joking.

Countertrey wrote:

Californiaskin wrote:ive watched every snap.....u dont see improvement?

The improvement is there... the problem is, the game speeds up in the red zone... and Jason doesn't.

Nonsense. Zorn has taken the ball out of JC's hands in the red zone. Give
Zorn sense enough to realize we don't have the OL to run in the red zone and you'll see different. Personally, the next time we try to run in the red zone against DL, I'm be in danger of a heart attack. We have absolutely no push left in the OL except in one spot and everyone in the league knows that Zorn will keep on running there. The guy's a moron. By the way, JC called the red zone play that scored for us last Sunday.

markshark84 wrote:

Californiaskin wrote:But Markysharky...statistics show that campbell is'nt the biggest concern, that other qbs on winning teams are prforming compartively and that really its just your opinion (and a few others) that dudes underpreforming.....even though the stats show hes not

You seriously have to be joking.

CanesSkins26 wrote:

Californiaskin wrote:....every catagory. Except tds.......dude is playing better football this year......its not the qb........if the d could get off the field wed score more tds! By far the best player on our O right now.

Take out the garbage time drives against the Giants and the Lions and what are you left with? How can you praise a qb that in three entire games has led his team to a grand total of ONE TD AGAINST NON-PREVENT DEFENSES??? JC is slow making his reads, has horrible pocket awareness, misses open receivers, has no touch on the ball, and can't throw a catchable deep ball. If we had been playing a competent team yesterday JC would have had two more int's, one of which would have been an easy pick 6.

This opinion can't be backed up by stats or common sense. JC is our top player this year-- unless Fletcher is considered.

crazyhorse1 wrote:

CanesSkins26 wrote:

Californiaskin wrote:....every catagory. Except tds.......dude is playing better football this year......its not the qb........if the d could get off the field wed score more tds! By far the best player on our O right now.

Take out the garbage time drives against the Giants and the Lions and what are you left with? How can you praise a qb that in three entire games has led his team to a grand total of ONE TD AGAINST NON-PREVENT DEFENSES??? JC is slow making his reads, has horrible pocket awareness, misses open receivers, has no touch on the ball, and can't throw a catchable deep ball. If we had been playing a competent team yesterday JC would have had two more int's, one of which would have been an easy pick 6.

This opinion can't be backed up by stats or common sense. JC is our top player this year-- unless Fletcher is considered.

agreed fletch's beast leading the league in tackles........oops stats again, my bad i should have learned by now factual evidence does not count... that means he must be underpreforming

Californiaskin wrote:

crazyhorse1 wrote:

CanesSkins26 wrote:

Californiaskin wrote:....every catagory. Except tds.......dude is playing better football this year......its not the qb........if the d could get off the field wed score more tds! By far the best player on our O right now.

Take out the garbage time drives against the Giants and the Lions and what are you left with? How can you praise a qb that in three entire games has led his team to a grand total of ONE TD AGAINST NON-PREVENT DEFENSES??? JC is slow making his reads, has horrible pocket awareness, misses open receivers, has no touch on the ball, and can't throw a catchable deep ball. If we had been playing a competent team yesterday JC would have had two more int's, one of which would have been an easy pick 6.

This opinion can't be backed up by stats or common sense. JC is our top player this year-- unless Fletcher is considered.

agreed fletch's beast leading the league in tackles........oops stats again, my bad i should have learned by now factual evidence does not count... that means he must be underpreforming

I think we should cut him. He's doing too well statistically. You know how Skins fans around here don't like that.

markshark84 wrote:

Californiaskin wrote:But Markysharky...statistics show that campbell is'nt the biggest concern, that other qbs on winning teams are prforming compartively and that really its just your opinion (and a few others) that dudes underpreforming.....even though the stats show hes not

You seriously have to be joking.

Don't waste your time. We all know that "good stats" doesn't necessarily mean "good player."