The-Hogs.net - Washington Football Discussion, Redskins to Commanders Era

Yeah, it's too much to pinpoint.

Chris Luva Luva wrote:I said a long time ago that I think Zorn isn't that great of a teacher.

When you have all 3 offensive rookies failing to comprehend his offense, you have to start looking at the teacher/s....

All of them can't be stupid.

Hey you might be right there CLL. Holmgren was there to help out if Zorn didn't get the message across to Hasslelbeck.

Who knows what went on over there.

I actually think Zorn was there to cushion Holmgreens scornful ways; plus he helped coach a QB that didn't have to face the defenses that we face in the NFC East.

I like Zorn, but I dont like what I am hearing about Zorn.

redskincity wrote:Hey you might be right there CLL.

That'll get you killed around here, don't say it again. And don't say anything negative about Swishy.

Chris Luva Luva wrote:

redskincity wrote:Hey you might be right there CLL.

That'll get you killed around here, don't say it again. And don't say anything negative about Swishy.

Whats up, I see you still passionate about dem Redskins. Too bad we stink now and will end up finishing 10-6 or 9-7 and be labeled the worst team in NFL history with a winning record.

redskincity wrote:

Chris Luva Luva wrote:

redskincity wrote:Hey you might be right there CLL.

That'll get you killed around here, don't say it again. And don't say anything negative about Swishy.

Whats up, I see you still passionate about dem Redskins. Too bad we stink now and will end up finishing 10-6 or 9-7 and be labeled the worst team in NFL history with a winning record.

I swear to everyone on this board that I'm not posting under two names.

Chris Luva Luva wrote:

redskincity wrote:

Chris Luva Luva wrote:

redskincity wrote:Hey you might be right there CLL.

That'll get you killed around here, don't say it again. And don't say anything negative about Swishy.

Whats up, I see you still passionate about dem Redskins. Too bad we stink now and will end up finishing 10-6 or 9-7 and be labeled the worst team in NFL history with a winning record.

I swear to everyone on this board that I'm not posting under two names.

Wow whats going on people hating on you here?? Give em hell!!!! Go Skins!!!!!!

Chris Luva Luva wrote:

roybus14 wrote:

Chris Luva Luva wrote:I said a long time ago that I think Zorn isn't that great of a teacher.

When you have all 3 offensive rookies failing to comprehend his offense, you have to start looking at the teacher/s....

All of them can't be stupid.

Jim Zorn's failure now is that he didn't find a way to ride that 6-2 start and capitalize on what they were doing to get to 6-2. This all comes down to experience. I'm not going to say we should dump him because I like many others on this board was feeling great at 6-2.

IMO. That 6-2 ride wasn't Jim... That was the running game, that was Joe Gibbs. That was Clinton being the proposed MVP and league rusher, non of which had anything to do with Zorns passing game.

So what happened? Teams focused on stopping the run and the passing game has NOT been able to alleviate the pressure.

It is really that simple. Jim Zorn's end of the offense is not producing and I think partly it has to do with him not being able to really coach the guys up...

Too easy Chris...can't have it both ways if you blame JZ for the losses you have to credit him for the wins.

DEHog wrote:Too easy Chris...can't have it both ways if you blame JZ for the losses you have to credit him for the wins.

I'mma try my hardest. I'm not really blaming him for the losses... I'm moreso blaming his end of the offense for not being able to balance out what defenses focus on.

So I'm blaming all aspects of the passing game... Pass blocking, receivers and Jason. Now does all of that point back to him? In a way it does but it's not all his fault becuase he's not on the field executing. But then you have to ask the question, is he a good teacher? I look at all 3 rookies having trouble grasping his offense and have to ask myself that question. 3 guys aren't slow, the teacher just isn't doing what needs to be done.

Chris Luva Luva wrote:I look at all 3 rookies having trouble grasping his offense and have to ask myself that question. 3 guys aren't slow, the teacher just isn't doing what needs to be done.

Well, Kelly was out for most of the season, and I get this sneaky suspicion that Zorn just like veterans. I mean...he was an old NFL player, and you know how they treat rookies; with distrust. I think he's still got that bias in him.

I think this team overachieved due to fact that we kept the same dominate Defense and very effective running game, which in reality is a formula for success NFL.

With that said, if this was a game plan, we peaked too soon and now we are paying for it.

Could anyone imagine this team if we didn't have this stud ass defense?

The NFL would have flexed all of our late games out of existence .

Chris Luva Luva wrote:

DEHog wrote:Too easy Chris...can't have it both ways if you blame JZ for the losses you have to credit him for the wins.

I'mma try my hardest. I'm not really blaming him for the losses... I'm moreso blaming his end of the offense for not being able to balance out what defenses focus on.

So I'm blaming all aspects of the passing game... Pass blocking, receivers and Jason. Now does all of that point back to him? In a way it does but it's not all his fault becuase he's not on the field executing. But then you have to ask the question, is he a good teacher? I look at all 3 rookies having trouble grasping his offense and have to ask myself that question. 3 guys aren't slow, the teacher just isn't doing what needs to be done.

Chris make no mistake about in the buck stops with him in every area...especially the O becuase he has chosen to call the plays and run the WCO. But I also give him credit for the wins...I thought his playcalling was brillant he was unconventional and he took chances,. I belive once he lost a few games he reverted back to what is the norm...not taking chances playing not to lose instead of continuing with the things that brought him early success.

Zorn is not Joe Gibbs, but it is far too soon to say that he is Norv Turner.

If he loses control of the team, then he's Norv. That will be shown over the next three games, and then over the off-season.

No, don't fire Zorn. Rebuild the OL and DL, work the rookie WR's, and lets see about next year.

welch wrote:Zorn is not Joe Gibbs, but it is far too soon to say that he is Norv Turner.

If he loses control of the team, then he's Norv. That will be shown over the next three games, and then over the off-season.

No, don't fire Zorn. Rebuild the OL and DL, work the rookie WR's, and lets see about next year.

Agreed. But he also needs to shut his trap and openly criticizing his players when he can't get the offense right and the plays into JC in time.....

Let's be realistic here. Before we throw Z under the bus, let's take a look at a few things.
1. It's his first year as a head coach. Does anyone remember Gibbs first season record? I don't but I know it was worse then where we're headed.
2. We have more injuries then I can EVER remember in one season. Hell, we're plucking people off the practice squad and throwng them into the starting line-up.
3. What goes up, must come down. It's called a reality check. Some conflicting egos, some first year growing pains, etc.
4. Gibbs glossed over everything. Saying things like we fought our guts out when, infact, we didn't. Zorn calls it like he sees it and this team is not used to this sort of self-examination.

Put it all together, and this is our team for 2008.
Not pretty, but not the Detroit Lions.
Hail!

1. It's his first year as a head coach. Does anyone remember Gibbs first season record? I don't but I know it was worse then where we're headed.

Terrible comparison. Gibbs inherited Spurrier's mess. Zorn took over a playoff team with a solid running game and a very good defense. His part of the offense is what is holding the team back right now.

2. We have more injuries then I can EVER remember in one season. Hell, we're plucking people off the practice squad and throwng them into the starting line-up.

Lots of teams have injury problems so don't even try to use that as an excuse. We are banged up right now on the oline but we have been relatively healthy all season. The defense has had more injury problems than the offense and are still playing at a high level

4. Gibbs glossed over everything. Saying things like we fought our guts out when, infact, we didn't. Zorn calls it like he sees it and this team is not used to this sort of self-examination.

Gibbs handled things that way because it works. Calling out players in public, especially when you as a coach aren't doing a good job, is a recipe for trouble. Brian Mitchell on the radio today said that it really pisses players off when a coach does what Zorn is doing.

CanesSkins26 wrote:

1. It's his first year as a head coach. Does anyone remember Gibbs first season record? I don't but I know it was worse then where we're headed.

Terrible comparison. Gibbs inherited Spurrier's mess. Zorn took over a playoff team with a solid running game and a very good defense. His part of the offense is what is holding the team back right now.

2. We have more injuries then I can EVER remember in one season. Hell, we're plucking people off the practice squad and throwng them into the starting line-up.

Lots of teams have injury problems so don't even try to use that as an excuse. We are banged up right now on the oline but we have been relatively healthy all season. The defense has had more injury problems than the offense and are still playing at a high level

4. Gibbs glossed over everything. Saying things like we fought our guts out when, infact, we didn't. Zorn calls it like he sees it and this team is not used to this sort of self-examination.

Gibbs handled things that way because it works. Calling out players in public, especially when you as a coach aren't doing a good job, is a recipe for trouble. Brian Mitchell on the radio today said that it really pisses players off when a coach does what Zorn is doing.

Not really compairing anything, just stating the facts.
Gibbs first season record was something like 8-8.
Zorn took over a team that eeked it's way into the playoffs last year and got beat by who??....The Seahawks.
We are more banged up then any other team I can think of, it's not an excuse, it's a FACT!
Like I just said, we are putting practice squad players on the starting lineup. Name me another team doing that?
Sorry dude, but our O line is more banged up then our D.
Did you read the story about how many O linemen we just signed?
Did we do that on the D side of the ball?
NOPE!
Brian Mitchell?
You put stock in what Brian Mitchell has to say?
Calling out players in public is wrong, but guess what, we are all human and make mistakes. Zorn made a mistake. I think he even made a mistake by benching Portis.
But what are mistakes for?
Learning from.
Zorn is learning, and the players are learning from him.
Give it a chance.

I agree with Roy. Zorn has to learn no to talk much. Gibbs could be very tough, but in private. Publicly, he never criticized a player, even one, like Stan Humphries, he had benched and decided to drop.

Yes, that was the right way to work. Gibbs praised every opponent...every one was terrifying because (a) they had a good record, or (b) they hadn't beaten anybody so they were about to break loose against the poor, under-prepared Redskins. We knew it was all fluff, every time Joe said, "I just don't know how we can stop Randall Cunningham", because we knew that Petibon had assured Gibbs that the defense would stop Cunningham.

Everything the coach does and says has to be for a purpose. Gibbs made sure that nobody -- coach or player -- said something to give the opponent extra fire. He searched for anything he could use to motivate his team. When a Bills DL coach made jokes about the Hogs, Gibbs and Hannifan had the OL so furious that they beat Bruce Smith into abject surrender.

That's mature coaching. Zorn isn't there yet, but he is just starting.

On the first year Gibbs coached the Redskins:

1981 Washington Redskins

Regular Season
Week 1 Sep 6 L 26-10 vs Dallas Cowboys
Week 2 Sep 13 L 17-7 vs New York Giants
Week 3 Sep 20 L 40-30 at St. Louis Cardinals
Week 4 Sep 27 L 36-13 at Philadelphia Eagles
Week 5 Oct 4 L 30-17 vs San Francisco 49ers
Week 6 Oct 11 W 24-7 at Chicago Bears
Week 7 Oct 18 L 13-10 at Miami Dolphins
Week 8 Oct 25 W 24-22 vs New England Patriots
Week 9 Nov 1 W 42-21 vs St. Louis Cardinals
Week 10 Nov 8 W 33-31 vs Detroit Lions
Week 11 Nov 15 W 30-27 at New York Giants (OT)
Week 12 Nov 22 L 24-10 at Dallas Cowboys
Week 13 Nov 29 L 21-14 at Buffalo Bills
Week 14 Dec 6 W 15-13 vs Philadelphia Eagles
Week 15 Dec 13 W 38-14 vs Baltimore Colts
Week 16 Dec 20 W 30-7 at Los Angeles Rams

Finished 8 - 8, and after the first five games -- losses -- they were ferocious. Won SB 17 the next year.

Gibbs inherited a team that had gone 6 - 10 in 1980, but Pardee's team had gone 10 -6 in 1979. Adding the Hogs, plus a 4th round DE named Dexter Manley made a big difference.

jay zeeeee is the greatest coach ever!

welch wrote:I agree with Roy. Zorn has to learn no to talk much. Gibbs could be very tough, but in private. Publicly, he never criticized a player, even one, like Stan Humphries, he had benched and decided to drop.

Jim Zorn needs to find his own philosophy, his own style. The last thing he should do is try to emulate someone he is not. Some successful coaches are more direct. Some are more circumspect. Jim Zorn should not try to become a Joe Gibbs clone.

Snout wrote:

welch wrote:I agree with Roy. Zorn has to learn no to talk much. Gibbs could be very tough, but in private. Publicly, he never criticized a player, even one, like Stan Humphries, he had benched and decided to drop.

Jim Zorn needs to find his own philosophy, his own style. The last thing he should do is try to emulate someone he is not. Some successful coaches are more direct. Some are more circumspect. Jim Zorn should not try to become a Joe Gibbs clone.

I don't think that it's about becoming a Joe Gibbs clone. Zorn has to be consistent and he should definitely learn to criticize his players individually in private but say "we" in public. The deck was stacked against him from day one because he inherited a team, IMO, only needed a full holes filed and the right HC to lead them. Should that have been Gregg Williams? Maybe?? But a rookie HC that, with a majority veteran squad, has shown his incosistency at times coupled with injuries and a lack of drafting in the right places, does not bode well as we have all seen since 6-2.....

Chris Luva Luva wrote:

roybus14 wrote:

Chris Luva Luva wrote:I said a long time ago that I think Zorn isn't that great of a teacher.

When you have all 3 offensive rookies failing to comprehend his offense, you have to start looking at the teacher/s....

All of them can't be stupid.

Jim Zorn's failure now is that he didn't find a way to ride that 6-2 start and capitalize on what they were doing to get to 6-2. This all comes down to experience. I'm not going to say we should dump him because I like many others on this board was feeling great at 6-2.

IMO. That 6-2 ride wasn't Jim... That was the running game, that was Joe Gibbs. That was Clinton being the proposed MVP and league rusher, non of which had anything to do with Zorns passing game.

So what happened? Teams focused on stopping the run and the passing game has NOT been able to alleviate the pressure.

It is really that simple. Jim Zorn's end of the offense is not producing and I think partly it has to do with him not being able to really coach the guys up...

No. The running game at the beginning of the year worked because the old guys were fresh. We wouldn't be able to run now, whether or not the passing game worked. Portis knows that and doesn't want to play, knowing he'll be creamed each game pointlessly. I agree with him. I hope only for a decent draft position and for Zorn to play the young guys in order to find someone we can use next year.

Zorn gets next year for sure

RayNAustin wrote:Whether Campbell is to blame or not, the one thing I do see is a guy with little to no fight in him. Where's the anger? Where's the disgust? Where is the competitiveness of a winner? It sure doesn't show in his face or in his play.

That's the most compelling thing you've ever said on the subject.

JSPB22 wrote:

RayNAustin wrote:Whether Campbell is to blame or not, the one thing I do see is a guy with little to no fight in him. Where's the anger? Where's the disgust? Where is the competitiveness of a winner? It sure doesn't show in his face or in his play.

That's the most compelling thing you've ever said on the subject.

I always hear things like this...would it make you feel better if JC was mad and still losing?? Trust me the players are plenty upset with the way the season has going but you can't allow a single game to fester why spend time on something you can't change?? Ithis league...it all about the next play and the next game!

I always hear things like this...would it make you feel better if JC was mad and still losing??

I think that what they are saying is that they don't ever see a sense of urgency demonstrated by Campbell...

There is "level" and then there is apathetic. With 3 minutes left, Jason is the same. No demonstration of urgency... none.

No fire. No emotion. No willingness to kick ass. None.

That may be fine for instilling confidence early in the game, but there often comes a time to rip off a head or two. C'mon, Jason... rip off a head once in a while.