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JSPB22 wrote:Wrong again Ray; Rabach calls the pass protections. And pass protection and run blocking are totally different animals. Some players do one better than the other. Jansen, for instance, is not as good a pass blocker as Heyer is, which is why Zorn went with Stephon in the early going, and totally coincidentally I'm sure, that was when Campbell's numbers were up.

And you still haven't explained why Zorn is so stubbornly sticking with Campbell, when anybody can plainly see the upside in switching to Collins or Brennan.

No, you are wrong, again.

Picking Up the Slack
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 01966.html

In Zorn's offense, quarterback Jason Campbell is responsible for the protection calls. This is the first season Campbell has had that responsibility, so the offensive line is doing what it can to help him.

On some plays yesterday, center Casey Rabach made a few calls Campbell missed. Offensive line coach Joe Bugel instructed Rabach to make sure the line gets it right to protect Campbell.

"We're a veteran enough line to help pick him up," Rabach said. "Until he gets real comfortable doing it, and he's been doing it for a while, it's something we can do sometimes to help take the pressure off of him."

The most obvious reason for having the QB set protections might be because he should have a slightly better view of the defensive alignments so those protections can be adjusted? But I'm sure you're going to explain why center actually has the better view.

This post is yet again necessary to correct the record which more often than not has "opinions" and "assumptions" being passed along as facts, even when they make no sense.

JSPB22 wrote:And you still haven't explained why Zorn is so stubbornly sticking with Campbell, when anybody can plainly see the upside in switching to Collins or Brennan.

I don't read minds, so I don't know. I don't know why Campbell was the automatic default starter after last year except for the investment placed in him by the Redskin. Politics? Poor judgment? It certainly wasn't because of his outstanding performance in the pre-season.....or have you forgotten about that?

The one thing I'm sure of is that Zorn wouldn't be stupid enough to undermine his QB by voicing anything remotely suggesting replacing him. So how do you know for sure that Zorn doesn't have serious doubts about Campbell's long term status as this team's starter?

I do remember one little slip by Zorn when he was questioned about Campbell and Hasselbeck, and Zorn said "he'll never be Matt Hasselbeck".

But I believe it's very likely due to the logic that suggests that at this point in the season, replacing Campbell would be a politcally dangerous move considering the Danny and the Vinny obviously hold Campbell in high regard, and brought Zorn into the picture expecting him to coach Campbell up to speed. If a change didn't work, Zorn would look awfully foolish, and if it did work great, Campbell's stock as a player would fall faster than the DOW.

Ya know, maybe, if I were in Zorn's shoes, maybe I wouldn't replace Campbell either. Maybe Brennan and Collins both suck even worse than Campbell. Maybe it's a lesser of evils playing Campbell? I really don't know. I'm sure there are more issues to consider other than simple results, which is where I'm coming from as an onlooker.

All I do know is that last year, even Saunders was surprised at how well Collins played. He said so himself, and that's after spending 5 years with him as his backup QB. What does that say? That says that none of the experts are all that clairvoyant or infallible. That says that more often than not, they're actually wrong about their assessments of talent. That explains why more successful college QBs fail in the NFL than succeed.

The real talent is ultimately discovered on the field of play and not found in talent evaluations and practice conditions. And it's just a matter of how long are you willing to give a guy to develop and prove himself one way or the other. I say Campbell has had enough time. Maybe Zorn's ego won't allow him to make that call just yet.

Similarly, I don't think anyone would say that Cary Collins is as talented as Vince Young, or even close to being as athletically gifted as Young. But I don't think anyone would expect the Titans to be 11-1 with Young at QB either, and they may never get that level of performance from Young.

And I might be a bit biased being here in Austin, but I don't think Campbell is as athletically gifted as Young either, so I'm just of the mindset to make a change because 9 points per game isn't cutting it, and it's not an isolated, short term issue. It's been the earmark of Campbell's career thus far, and I don't think the issues preventing his success are correctable to the degree that will turn him into an elite QB. Sure, they may get some improvement with Campbell, but I say they could get more from Brennan, given the same amount of attention and patience.

vwoodzpusha wrote:This team has done a lot better then I ever expected out of them this season. JC will be a great QB but he needs time to throw. We need more receving threats to make the passing game viable.

EXACTLY!
Jason is growing. Our O line SUCKS.
Collins is NOT the answer. I believe in Zorn.
He IS/WAS a QB. He coached QB's.
I believe in Campbell. Just give him a chance.

RayNAustin wrote:

JSPB22 wrote:Wrong again Ray; Rabach calls the pass protections. And pass protection and run blocking are totally different animals. Some players do one better than the other. Jansen, for instance, is not as good a pass blocker as Heyer is, which is why Zorn went with Stephon in the early going, and totally coincidentally I'm sure, that was when Campbell's numbers were up.

And you still haven't explained why Zorn is so stubbornly sticking with Campbell, when anybody can plainly see the upside in switching to Collins or Brennan.

No, you are wrong, again.

Picking Up the Slack
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 01966.html

In Zorn's offense, quarterback Jason Campbell is responsible for the protection calls. This is the first season Campbell has had that responsibility, so the offensive line is doing what it can to help him.

On some plays yesterday, center Casey Rabach made a few calls Campbell missed. Offensive line coach Joe Bugel instructed Rabach to make sure the line gets it right to protect Campbell.

"We're a veteran enough line to help pick him up," Rabach said. "Until he gets real comfortable doing it, and he's been doing it for a while, it's something we can do sometimes to help take the pressure off of him."

The most obvious reason for having the QB set protections might be because he should have a slightly better view of the defensive alignments so those protections can be adjusted? But I'm sure you're going to explain why center actually has the better view.

This post is yet again necessary to correct the record which more often than not has "opinions" and "assumptions" being passed along as facts, even when they make no sense.

OK, so You were correct that the responsibility for calling protections now rests with Jason, but the fact remains that the center, in this case Rabach, typically calls protections, and he did, in fact, call many of the protections in the games this season, because Jason still doesn't have this new responsibility down pat. But your post made it sound as if it's been Jason's job all along, when the article you quoted makes it obvious that this is new to Jason, and Rabach is making sure he is calling it correctly, or else he is making the proper call himself. So your righteous indignation aside, you did not vindicate yourself by posting that "proof," but only strengthened my belief that you don't understand the inner workings of the team, and your opinions about Jason's play have no merit in reality.

And as for Zorn saying JC will never be Matt Hasslebeck, I think he was just saying you can't compare the two, apples and oranges, not that he was in some way inferior.

JSPB22 wrote:

RayNAustin wrote:

JSPB22 wrote:Wrong again Ray; Rabach calls the pass protections. And pass protection and run blocking are totally different animals. Some players do one better than the other. Jansen, for instance, is not as good a pass blocker as Heyer is, which is why Zorn went with Stephon in the early going, and totally coincidentally I'm sure, that was when Campbell's numbers were up.

And you still haven't explained why Zorn is so stubbornly sticking with Campbell, when anybody can plainly see the upside in switching to Collins or Brennan.

No, you are wrong, again.

Picking Up the Slack
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 01966.html

In Zorn's offense, quarterback Jason Campbell is responsible for the protection calls. This is the first season Campbell has had that responsibility, so the offensive line is doing what it can to help him.

On some plays yesterday, center Casey Rabach made a few calls Campbell missed. Offensive line coach Joe Bugel instructed Rabach to make sure the line gets it right to protect Campbell.

"We're a veteran enough line to help pick him up," Rabach said. "Until he gets real comfortable doing it, and he's been doing it for a while, it's something we can do sometimes to help take the pressure off of him."

The most obvious reason for having the QB set protections might be because he should have a slightly better view of the defensive alignments so those protections can be adjusted? But I'm sure you're going to explain why center actually has the better view.

This post is yet again necessary to correct the record which more often than not has "opinions" and "assumptions" being passed along as facts, even when they make no sense.

OK, so You were correct that the responsibility for calling protections now rests with Jason, but the fact remains that the center, in this case Rabach, typically calls protections, and he did, in fact, call many of the protections in the games this season, because Jason still doesn't have this new responsibility down pat. But your post made it sound as if it's been Jason's job all along, when the article you quoted makes it obvious that this is new to Jason, and Rabach is making sure he is calling it correctly, or else he is making the proper call himself. So your righteous indignation aside, you did not vindicate yourself by posting that "proof," but only strengthened my belief that you don't understand the inner workings of the team, and your opinions about Jason's play have no merit in reality.

And as for Zorn saying JC will never be Matt Hasslebeck, I think he was just saying you can't compare the two, apples and oranges, not that he was in some way inferior.

Wow, shameless, and proud of it, aye? Would it be such a disaster to simply say you were mistaken? And how funny......I don't understand the inner workings of the team?

The issue is that your statement about the inner workings of the team was flat out wrong, and I posted the proof. Furthermore....the FACT is that in Zorn's WC offense, the QB is responsible for setting the protections, period. And it was that way from DAY ONE, and IS Jason's job! So it's not Rabachs job "typically" or otherwise. The reference about this being new to Jason was made because Jason has never had that responsibility before Zorn arrived. But since day one, it has been his job. That Rabach has had to "Pick Up The Slack" (as the title of the article suggests), shows that Campbell has had some difficulty in correctly executing that responsibility, which may contribute a bit to the pass protection issue? Are you missing the direct association? Jason is having trouble because the o-line sucks....uh....wait.....Jason missed a protection call so nobody was told to block that guy who sacked Jason, so maybe that one sack wasn't the o-line's fault. Get it? Now, Rabach has been tasked with keeping tabs on the situation so that Jason doesn't kill himself by missing protection calls. Wonderful.

Problem is, is it that hard to imagine that while standing over center the QB is in a slightly better position to analyze the defensive alignment and spot the hot reads creeping up to the line as opposed to a center with his head stuck between his legs two feet off the ground? So, if Campbell can miss calls with his view of the situation, would it not seem even more likely that Rabach (with his disadvantaged view) could miss Campbell's misses?

Like I've said before, it all starts with the QB.

This is what we know:

1) Campbell doesn't see receivers well working from under center, and prefers the shotgun. He's said so himself. Problem is, Zorn's system operates from under center more often than from the shotgun.

2) Campbell needs time to learn systems...never really grasped Saunders system after 2 years and 16 regular season games. Zorn's system asks more from the QB than did Saunders system.

3) Campbell needs the center to "pick up his slack" to avoid the QB killing himself by missing protection calls

4) Campbell tends to hold the ball too long, and isn't reknowned for his touch on shorter throws. Problem, Zorn's offense requires the QB to make even quicker decisions than Saunder's offense, and leans heavily on short patterns and three step drops. A recipe for more pressue and more sacks.

5) Jason has a nasty habit of putting the ball on the ground when sacked.

6) 1-5 isn't Campbell's fault. None of it. It's somebody else's fault. The o-line, the receivers, the Coach......I got it...it's the Cheerleader's fault.



And thanks for telling me what Zorn was thinking, but I actually watched the interview, and his curt tone was more along the lines of "Are you kidding me.....Campbell is no Peyton Manning" only substitute Hasselbeck. I was rather surprised, really. But neither you nor I are Karnack the Magnificent, so it's just my opinion about his tone and look on his face when he said it.

I can't say how this season will end regarding JC's situation.

But I will say this: come next Spring, you'll see A LOT of competition at QB. Totally different from this year, when JC was annointed the undisputed starter before camp even began.

As much as I hate to say it, ray makes a lot of good points in this post. Maybe a little extreme compared to my views, but I haven't really disagreed with much. I think it's also been stated in another post about it appearing that the game just isn't slowing down for JC like a lot of us armchair GMs had hoped.

I'm still of the midset that maybe this isn't the right system for JC. I'm not saying he can't cut it in the NFL, just maybe not this system.

RayNAustin wrote:

JSPB22 wrote:

RayNAustin wrote:

JSPB22 wrote:Wrong again Ray; Rabach calls the pass protections. And pass protection and run blocking are totally different animals. Some players do one better than the other. Jansen, for instance, is not as good a pass blocker as Heyer is, which is why Zorn went with Stephon in the early going, and totally coincidentally I'm sure, that was when Campbell's numbers were up.

And you still haven't explained why Zorn is so stubbornly sticking with Campbell, when anybody can plainly see the upside in switching to Collins or Brennan.

No, you are wrong, again.

Picking Up the Slack
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 01966.html

In Zorn's offense, quarterback Jason Campbell is responsible for the protection calls. This is the first season Campbell has had that responsibility, so the offensive line is doing what it can to help him.

On some plays yesterday, center Casey Rabach made a few calls Campbell missed. Offensive line coach Joe Bugel instructed Rabach to make sure the line gets it right to protect Campbell.

"We're a veteran enough line to help pick him up," Rabach said. "Until he gets real comfortable doing it, and he's been doing it for a while, it's something we can do sometimes to help take the pressure off of him."

The most obvious reason for having the QB set protections might be because he should have a slightly better view of the defensive alignments so those protections can be adjusted? But I'm sure you're going to explain why center actually has the better view.

This post is yet again necessary to correct the record which more often than not has "opinions" and "assumptions" being passed along as facts, even when they make no sense.

OK, so you were correct that the responsibility for calling protections now rests with Jason, but the fact remains that the center, in this case Rabach, typically calls protections, and he did, in fact, call many of the protections in the games this season, because Jason still doesn't have this new responsibility down pat. But your post made it sound as if it's been Jason's job all along, when the article you quoted makes it obvious that this is new to Jason, and Rabach is making sure he is calling it correctly, or else he is making the proper call himself. So your righteous indignation aside, you did not vindicate yourself by posting that "proof," but only strengthened my belief that you don't understand the inner workings of the team, and your opinions about Jason's play have no merit in reality.

And as for Zorn saying JC will never be Matt Hasslebeck, I think he was just saying you can't compare the two, apples and oranges, not that he was in some way inferior.

Wow, shameless, and proud of it, aye? Would it be such a disaster to simply say you were mistaken? And how funny......I don't understand the inner workings of the team?

The issue is that your statement about the inner workings of the team was flat out wrong, and I posted the proof. Furthermore....the FACT is that in Zorn's WC offense, the QB is responsible for setting the protections, period. And it was that way from DAY ONE, and IS Jason's job! So it's not Rabachs job "typically" or otherwise. The reference about this being new to Jason was made because Jason has never had that responsibility before Zorn arrived. But since day one, it has been his job. That Rabach has had to "Pick Up The Slack" (as the title of the article suggests), shows that Campbell has had some difficulty in correctly executing that responsibility, which may contribute a bit to the pass protection issue? Are you missing the direct association? Jason is having trouble because the o-line sucks....uh....wait.....Jason missed a protection call so nobody was told to block that guy who sacked Jason, so maybe that one sack wasn't the o-line's fault. Get it? Now, Rabach has been tasked with keeping tabs on the situation so that Jason doesn't kill himself by missing protection calls. Wonderful.

Problem is, is it that hard to imagine that while standing over center the QB is in a slightly better position to analyze the defensive alignment and spot the hot reads creeping up to the line as opposed to a center with his head stuck between his legs two feet off the ground? So, if Campbell can miss calls with his view of the situation, would it not seem even more likely that Rabach (with his disadvantaged view) could miss Campbell's misses?

Like I've said before, it all starts with the QB.

This is what we know:

1) Campbell doesn't see receivers well working from under center, and prefers the shotgun. He's said so himself. Problem is, Zorn's system operates from under center more often than from the shotgun.

2) Campbell needs time to learn systems...never really grasped Saunders system after 2 years and 16 regular season games. Zorn's system asks more from the QB than did Saunders system.

3) Campbell needs the center to "pick up his slack" to avoid the QB killing himself by missing protection calls

4) Campbell tends to hold the ball too long, and isn't reknowned for his touch on shorter throws. Problem, Zorn's offense requires the QB to make even quicker decisions than Saunder's offense, and leans heavily on short patterns and three step drops. A recipe for more pressue and more sacks.

5) Jason has a nasty habit of putting the ball on the ground when sacked.

6) 1-5 isn't Campbell's fault. None of it. It's somebody else's fault. The o-line, the receivers, the Coach......I got it...it's the Cheerleader's fault.



And thanks for telling me what Zorn was thinking, but I actually watched the interview, and his curt tone was more along the lines of "Are you kidding me.....Campbell is no Peyton Manning" only substitute Hasselbeck. I was rather surprised, really. But neither you nor I are Karnack the Magnificent, so it's just my opinion about his tone and look on his face when he said it.

First of all, if you check the highlighted portions of my post, I did say you were correct, and that I was wrong. But you won't admit that the job of calling protections typically (read in most NFL offenses), and pre-Zorn, is on the center, IN THIS CASE, Rabach. Nowhere have I ever said that this should be, or is the most advantageous, person to have calling protections. I simply stated that it is the norm, and I have noticed in several games, including the game last week, that Rabach was still calling protections. so I was agreeing with you that Jason does not have that responsibility down yet. And obviously the WCO utilizes three step drops and short passes to negate the pass rush, but the receiver also has the responsibility to recognize the pending blitz, and alter his route accordingly. If he doesn't do that, it's not on Jason that he doesn't hit that pass. Zorn said as much in his latest presser. And Jason has been extremely improved this season, at not laying the ball on the ground when sacked, having fumbled five times, only one of which was lost. So I still see your personal dislike for him clouding your judgement.

Lastly, I think Zorn's tone, when he made the comment, was curt because he felt the question was stupid, not the comparison in and of itself. We have seen the same response to other questions he didn't like, so it's not like this was entirely out of character. But that is my opinion, and I never said you weren't entitled to your own, just that I don't happen to agree with you. That you respond so defensively, and with such venom, only reinforces my opinion that you are not looking at the situation dispassionately.

RAY

The learning curve is different for all quarterbacks. Let's look down the list of the top QB's in terms of rating and see how their careers have unfolded:

1. Tony Romo—Did not throw a pass for almost three and a half years before bursting onto the scene.
2. Phillip Rivers—Drafted high, did not play much for two years, has been good but not great in three years as a starter.
3. Kurt Warner—Couldn't make it out of college, played Arena League, bagged groceries, made the Rams as a backup, got his chance due to injury, won two MVP's, declined, nobody wanted him, now back as an unquestioned starter.
4. Drew Brees—Played in one game as a rookie, posted QB ratings of 76.9 and 67.5 in his first two years starting, had two great years with the Chargers, was allowed to leave as a free agent in favor of Rivers, has had two and a half stellar years in New Orleans.
5. Chad Pennington—Played little in his first two years with the Jets, then broke out in his third year, has been steady if unspectacular since then.
6. Jeff Garcia—Canadian League, made the Pro Bowl in San Francisco, bounced to the Lions and Browns, both of whom had major QB issues, to the Eagles where he took over for an injured McNabb and led them to the playoffs, to Tampa Bay.

I defy you to find a pattern there and tell me where Campbell "should" be at this stage of his career. No, he hasn't shown a steady progression from game one as a starter through yesterday, his 32nd game behind center. But neither did most of the guys listed above, or many other solid starters around the league.

Take the quarterbacks of the last two teams the Redskins have faced. Matt Hasselbeck, under the coaching of Jim Zorn in Seattle, had many fits and starts with the Seahawks. Then, in 2005, he got it. A year later the Seahawks were in the Super Bowl and may well have won it if not for some strange officiating calls.

Just one question, Ray...

It took a couple of years for your boy, Hasselbeck, to "get it" in Seattle. Who are you to set or determine time parameters for a QB to learn Zorn's system, or any NFL system for that matter?

Some want to point to Collins starts at the end of last season (as system he played in for over a decade) as evidence that he is best qualified to be the current starter. And besides a few lousy series in a few preseason games, very few have the first-hand knowledge as to whether Collins can play in Zorn's system. Not many get a chance to see all three QB's perform in practice to be able to make a reasonable comparison.

Matt Terl, the blogger for Redskins.com, is one the few privileged non-coaching individuals to actually be a first-hand eyewitness of practices. I've found his blogs to be impartial and fair, I think he calls it like he sees it.

Here's some first-hand eyewitness accounts of the QB situation in practice...

The main thing I was watching, in light of the all the recent chatter and the two articles in today’s Washington Post, was the quarterback position. And yet again Jason Campbell looked good. Remember, there’s no pass rush to speak of in practice, and even if the guys are going “full speed,” it’s not to going to be the same as game speed. It’s a totally different environment, and apparently that’s just the way it is. But yet again, Campbell in practice looks decisive and seems to be getting rid of the ball quickly — and, to judge by what I can overhear people saying on the field, to the correct receivers. When you watch all three QBs take reps, it seems reasonably clear why Campbell is the starter, and why Zorn claims that he’s not even considered a switch. I’ll keep an eye on it throughout the week, but that’s how it looked today.

Another day of watching Jason Campbell, another day impressed. If I wasn’t watching whichever drill the QB was in, every single time I noticed a pass out of the corner of my eye it was one of Campbell’s. With one exception (a Colt Brennan to Fred Davis connection), every time I heard people on the field get excited about an offensive pass play, it was one of Campbell’s. And Zorn seemed pleased with what he was seeing. At this point, it’s just about what he can do in the game.

Also from the blog...

I saw Malcolm Kelly go up high and make a spectacular catch over Justin Tryon, and I noticed Devin Thomas running hard and make a couple of nice catches, but I thought I might’ve just been overinflating their performances in my head. Then I asked Chris ey what stood out for him at practice, and he said, “The rookie receivers both had really good practices today,” so I felt pretty good.

Damn it, enough with looking good in practice, gets these guys involved in the games!

SkinsFreak wrote:Damn it, enough with looking good in practice, gets these guys involved in the games!

Amen... It's easy to catch when you're not getting tackled. It's the catches in traffic that Kelly has yet to make. It disappoints me.

RayNAustin wrote:

TeeterSalad wrote:

SkinsFreak wrote:Has JC all of a sudden forgot how to play football?

Probably not but in the last few weeks it seems he's forgotten some of the basics he acquired from Coach Zorn in the beginning of the season. Protecting the football and a quick release being the two that catch my eye the most.

The question suggests that he actually learned how to.....a point of contention IMO. I've been pointing out this since mid 2007, and the pattern we've witnessed this year is a repeating pattern.

The most logical conclusion at this point, at least in my opinion is this: Jason Campbell is a mechanical player as opposed to an instinctive player that has the ability to improvise and make something out of nothing. Most of the better QB's in the NFL are able to improvise, and rely on instinct as is necessary since opposing defenses aren't always cooperative with one's game plan.

The fact that Zorn was able to coach him up some (his improvement early on was very evident) appeared to indicate Campbell was turning a corner in his development, yet he has once again digressed. I suspect that his holding the ball too long and locking in on receivers, and not seeing the entire field (open receivers) is a natural inclination (which was the scouting report on him in college). This would explain why he can look impressive at times, given ideal conditions (lots of time in the pocket to study the field and find an open guy). But when you throw something new at him (like good defensive coordinators continuously do) he falls back to his old habits because that IS WHO HE IS.

This would also explain why the Redskins have so many problems in the Red Zone. The field is much smaller, and decisions must be made even quicker. You just can't lock on to receivers because DB's and LB's are reading the QB's eyes way more in the red zone than when the field is larger.

Again, his methodical approach to the game and how he processes information is who he is. Trying to change that fundamentally is not going to work. That's like telling James Thrash to just run faster and expect him to do it. If he could run faster, don't you think he would?

The WC offense is designed to negate good pass rushes because it's a quick hitting, short control pass oriented style that demands the QB process more information, more quickly than a conventional, run first, vertical pass oriented offense. Given that most here would agree to some extent that he holds the ball too long, can you not see how this could dramatically impact the effectiveness of the offense? Huh???? Duh!

What many fail to consider here is that Zorn's version of the WC also adds the additional responsibility to have the QB set pass protections at the line of scrimmage! Is it not possible that this additional responsibility isn't impacting Campbell's performance as well as the 0-line pass blocking?

I don't think you can legitimately conclude that the 0-line is "pathetic" given that they've been able to provide Portis the opportunity to LEAD THE LEAGUE in rushing. Maybe there is a combination of issues causing the pass pro problems.....communication between the QB and the line when setting those protections......wrong or ineffective protection schemes being set....along with missed assignments and finally.....defenses recognizing that they can safely come after Campbell without fear of getting burned consistently? All of this revolves around the effectiveness of the QB.

And for those who automatically conclude that a switch to Collins or Brennan would be a negative, I say you cannot say this with any reasonable measure of assuredness. There is no evidence for such a conclusion. In reality, there IS evidence to the contrary......last year

I think you should consider this in re. to your analysis: the offensive line was effective for the first half of the season because it is skilled and experienced, hence the running game worked. Now, the OL, being old, is exhausted, hence the running game has almost disappeared and Portis has become a poster boy for battered running backs.
Also, our red zone disasters might be occurring because the OL is ineffective and error prone through age after being on the field for more than ten or twelve plays.

I totally agree that Campbell is a limited, mechanical player (like Ripien), but I think we can win with him as the line improves. At this particular time, however, I think he should be benched for Collins. Last year was no fluke, and it did not occur because Collins knew the system. The same thing would happen this year. Collins will always find open receivers quickly and get rid of the ball quickly-- he's been doing it all his life and its why he's still in the league. It's also why he was brought into the league in the first place in spite of his lack of arm strength. It's why he was successful in college.

Zorn, unfortunately, will not go to Collins. It would
require too much contradiction of his own bias and previous conviction. We're going to go down, not in flames, but with a sputter.

SkinFan63 wrote:

vwoodzpusha wrote:This team has done a lot better then I ever expected out of them this season. JC will be a great QB but he needs time to throw. We need more receving threats to make the passing game viable.

EXACTLY!
Jason is growing. Our O line SUCKS.
Collins is NOT the answer. I believe in Zorn.
He IS/WAS a QB. He coached QB's.
I believe in Campbell. Just give him a chance.

I think we did. How many more does he get? Should we wait until he retires? He has been our QB for 3 years and outside of a 4 game stretch this season, he has not been effective. He has been the centerpiece of an offense that has kept us out of being actual contenders for three years running.

SkinsFreak wrote:Some want to point to Collins starts at the end of last season (as system he played in for over a decade) as evidence that he is best qualified to be the current starter. And besides a few lousy series in a few preseason games, very few have the first-hand knowledge as to whether Collins can play in Zorn's system. Not many get a chance to see all three QB's perform in practice to be able to make a reasonable comparison.

Matt Terl, the blogger for Redskins.com, is one the few privileged non-coaching individuals to actually be a first-hand eyewitness of practices. I've found his blogs to be impartial and fair, I think he calls it like he sees it.

Here's some first-hand eyewitness accounts of the QB situation in practice...

The main thing I was watching, in light of the all the recent chatter and the two articles in today’s Washington Post, was the quarterback position. And yet again Jason Campbell looked good. Remember, there’s no pass rush to speak of in practice, and even if the guys are going “full speed,” it’s not to going to be the same as game speed. It’s a totally different environment, and apparently that’s just the way it is. But yet again, Campbell in practice looks decisive and seems to be getting rid of the ball quickly — and, to judge by what I can overhear people saying on the field, to the correct receivers. When you watch all three QBs take reps, it seems reasonably clear why Campbell is the starter, and why Zorn claims that he’s not even considered a switch. I’ll keep an eye on it throughout the week, but that’s how it looked today.

Another day of watching Jason Campbell, another day impressed. If I wasn’t watching whichever drill the QB was in, every single time I noticed a pass out of the corner of my eye it was one of Campbell’s. With one exception (a Colt Brennan to Fred Davis connection), every time I heard people on the field get excited about an offensive pass play, it was one of Campbell’s. And Zorn seemed pleased with what he was seeing. At this point, it’s just about what he can do in the game.

Also from the blog...

I saw Malcolm Kelly go up high and make a spectacular catch over Justin Tryon, and I noticed Devin Thomas running hard and make a couple of nice catches, but I thought I might’ve just been overinflating their performances in my head. Then I asked Chris ey what stood out for him at practice, and he said, “The rookie receivers both had really good practices today,” so I felt pretty good.

Damn it, enough with looking good in practice, gets these guys involved in the games!

Personally, I could care less how good or bad of a practice they have. It comes down to Sunday at ~8:15p EST: put up or shut up time. Ultimately, everything else is irrelavent.

Talk about a trial by flame this week in Baltimore's D for Jason Campbell.

If he has a good game the team will surely make the playoffs by the boost it means beating a contender in the AFC as a visiting team. If we lose, though...

VetSkinsFan wrote:

SkinsFreak wrote:Some want to point to Collins starts at the end of last season (as system he played in for over a decade) as evidence that he is best qualified to be the current starter. And besides a few lousy series in a few preseason games, very few have the first-hand knowledge as to whether Collins can play in Zorn's system. Not many get a chance to see all three QB's perform in practice to be able to make a reasonable comparison.

Matt Terl, the blogger for Redskins.com, is one the few privileged non-coaching individuals to actually be a first-hand eyewitness of practices. I've found his blogs to be impartial and fair, I think he calls it like he sees it.

Here's some first-hand eyewitness accounts of the QB situation in practice...

The main thing I was watching, in light of the all the recent chatter and the two articles in today’s Washington Post, was the quarterback position. And yet again Jason Campbell looked good. Remember, there’s no pass rush to speak of in practice, and even if the guys are going “full speed,” it’s not to going to be the same as game speed. It’s a totally different environment, and apparently that’s just the way it is. But yet again, Campbell in practice looks decisive and seems to be getting rid of the ball quickly — and, to judge by what I can overhear people saying on the field, to the correct receivers. When you watch all three QBs take reps, it seems reasonably clear why Campbell is the starter, and why Zorn claims that he’s not even considered a switch. I’ll keep an eye on it throughout the week, but that’s how it looked today.

Another day of watching Jason Campbell, another day impressed. If I wasn’t watching whichever drill the QB was in, every single time I noticed a pass out of the corner of my eye it was one of Campbell’s. With one exception (a Colt Brennan to Fred Davis connection), every time I heard people on the field get excited about an offensive pass play, it was one of Campbell’s. And Zorn seemed pleased with what he was seeing. At this point, it’s just about what he can do in the game.

Also from the blog...

I saw Malcolm Kelly go up high and make a spectacular catch over Justin Tryon, and I noticed Devin Thomas running hard and make a couple of nice catches, but I thought I might’ve just been overinflating their performances in my head. Then I asked Chris ey what stood out for him at practice, and he said, “The rookie receivers both had really good practices today,” so I felt pretty good.

Damn it, enough with looking good in practice, gets these guys involved in the games!

Personally, I could care less how good or bad of a practice they have. It comes down to Sunday at ~8:15p EST: put up or shut up time. Ultimately, everything else is irrelavent.

Really? No kidding. I think every sports fan in the world realizes the actual games are far more significant than the practices. But that wasn't the point of my post. The highlighted part was the emphasis.

SkinsFreak wrote:

VetSkinsFan wrote:

SkinsFreak wrote:Some want to point to Collins starts at the end of last season (as system he played in for over a decade) as evidence that he is best qualified to be the current starter. And besides a few lousy series in a few preseason games, very few have the first-hand knowledge as to whether Collins can play in Zorn's system. Not many get a chance to see all three QB's perform in practice to be able to make a reasonable comparison.

Matt Terl, the blogger for Redskins.com, is one the few privileged non-coaching individuals to actually be a first-hand eyewitness of practices. I've found his blogs to be impartial and fair, I think he calls it like he sees it.

Here's some first-hand eyewitness accounts of the QB situation in practice...

The main thing I was watching, in light of the all the recent chatter and the two articles in today’s Washington Post, was the quarterback position. And yet again Jason Campbell looked good. Remember, there’s no pass rush to speak of in practice, and even if the guys are going “full speed,” it’s not to going to be the same as game speed. It’s a totally different environment, and apparently that’s just the way it is. But yet again, Campbell in practice looks decisive and seems to be getting rid of the ball quickly — and, to judge by what I can overhear people saying on the field, to the correct receivers. When you watch all three QBs take reps, it seems reasonably clear why Campbell is the starter, and why Zorn claims that he’s not even considered a switch. I’ll keep an eye on it throughout the week, but that’s how it looked today.

Another day of watching Jason Campbell, another day impressed. If I wasn’t watching whichever drill the QB was in, every single time I noticed a pass out of the corner of my eye it was one of Campbell’s. With one exception (a Colt Brennan to Fred Davis connection), every time I heard people on the field get excited about an offensive pass play, it was one of Campbell’s. And Zorn seemed pleased with what he was seeing. At this point, it’s just about what he can do in the game.

Also from the blog...

I saw Malcolm Kelly go up high and make a spectacular catch over Justin Tryon, and I noticed Devin Thomas running hard and make a couple of nice catches, but I thought I might’ve just been overinflating their performances in my head. Then I asked Chris ey what stood out for him at practice, and he said, “The rookie receivers both had really good practices today,” so I felt pretty good.

Damn it, enough with looking good in practice, gets these guys involved in the games!

Personally, I could care less how good or bad of a practice they have. It comes down to Sunday at ~8:15p EST: put up or shut up time. Ultimately, everything else is irrelavent.

Really? No kidding. I think every sports fan in the world realizes the actual games are far more significant than the practices. But that wasn't the point of my post. The highlighted part was the emphasis.

The intent was fully comprehended. We've heard sporadically throughout the year that 'various people, JC not excluded, have had good practices.' And as I stated, on game day, all the good or bad practices in the world don't mean squat.

I saw Malcolm Kelly go up high and make a spectacular catch over Justin Tryon, and I noticed Devin Thomas running hard and make a couple of nice catches, but I thought I might’ve just been overinflating their performances in my head. Then I asked Chris ey what stood out for him at practice, and he said, “The rookie receivers both had really good practices today,” so I felt pretty good.

Damn it, enough with looking good in practice, gets these guys involved in the games![/quote]

Personally, I could care less how good or bad of a practice they have. It comes down to Sunday at ~8:15p EST: put up or shut up time. Ultimately, everything else is irrelavent.[/quote]

Really? No kidding. I think every sports fan in the world realizes the actual games are far more significant than the practices. But that wasn't the point of my post. The highlighted part was the emphasis.[/quote]

The intent was fully comprehended. We've heard sporadically throughout the year that 'various people, JC not excluded, have had good practices.' And as I stated, on game day, all the good or bad practices in the world don't mean squat.[/quote]

I read we had a REALLY good/intense practice prior to the Giants kicking our butts. Guess it didn't matter. Show up on Sunday, or go home.

JSPB22 wrote:First of all, if you check the highlighted portions of my post, I did say you were correct, and that I was wrong. But you won't admit that the job of calling protections typically (read in most NFL offenses), and pre-Zorn, is on the center, IN THIS CASE, Rabach. Nowhere have I ever said that this should be, or is the most advantageous, person to have calling protections. I simply stated that it is the norm, and I have noticed in several games, including the game last week, that Rabach was still calling protections. so I was agreeing with you that Jason does not have that responsibility down yet. And obviously the WCO utilizes three step drops and short passes to negate the pass rush, but the receiver also has the responsibility to recognize the pending blitz, and alter his route accordingly. If he doesn't do that, it's not on Jason that he doesn't hit that pass. Zorn said as much in his latest presser. And Jason has been extremely improved this season, at not laying the ball on the ground when sacked, having fumbled five times, only one of which was lost. So I still see your personal dislike for him clouding your judgement.

See this is what I'm talking about "my personal dislike for him". I have no personal dislike for Campbell, that's absurd. I don't personally know him, and he's never stiffed me on a business deal, so no, nothing personal against him in the slightest. OK? Let's get that straight. Truth be told, I actually like what I do know of him as a person. He's a straight shooter, polite, respectful, and a hard worker, and he isn't involved in torturing animals. So I think he is a fine young man. That's not the point. I think Ghandi was decent fellow too, but I don't want him being the Redskin QB. This is about Jason's performance or lack thereof, and NOTHING more.

My "venomous" response (as you call it) was in response to your patronizing "wrong again, Ray", with your follow up of....well you might be right but you still don't know what you are talking about attitude.

JSPB22 wrote:Lastly, I think Zorn's tone, when he made the comment, was curt because he felt the question was stupid, not the comparison in and of itself. We have seen the same response to other questions he didn't like, so it's not like this was entirely out of character. But that is my opinion, and I never said you weren't entitled to your own, just that I don't happen to agree with you. That you respond so defensively, and with such venom, only reinforces my opinion that you are not looking at the situation dispassionately.

I have no axe to grind with Campbell, as you repeatedly suggest. And I believe you and some others have dug their heels in to a point that's clouding your judgment. I think it's a matter of being too married to the idea of being right that precludes even contemplating the notion...gasp...that you could be wrong.

I don't want to be right. I wish Campbell was leading the league in passing and had 25 TD on the board. The Redskins would be 10-2 now instead of 7-5 and going in the wrong direction. That's what I had hoped to see after watching games 2-5. And I though at the time (and said so) that maybe Campbell has finally turned the corner. But the last few games shows me that he hasn't. He's the same Jason Campbell as last year, only worse, because our points per game has actually declined.

VetSkinsFan wrote:The intent was fully comprehended. We've heard sporadically throughout the year that 'various people, JC not excluded, have had good practices.' And as I stated, on game day, all the good or bad practices in the world don't mean squat.

No, good practices by players was NOT the intent of my post. I'm fully aware that good or bad practices don't mean squat come game day, but that wasn't what I was getting at.

I said...

Some want to point to Collins' starts at the end of last season (a system he played in for over a decade) as evidence that he is best qualified to be the current starter. And besides a few lousy series in a few preseason games, very few have the first-hand knowledge as to whether Collins can play in Zorn's system. Not many get a chance to see all three QB's perform in practice to be able to make a reasonable comparison.

Matt Terl has been at practices and said "When you watch all three QBs take reps, it seems reasonably clear why Campbell is the starter, and why Zorn claims that he’s not even considered a switch."

That's the point. Matt Terl, a first-hand eyewitness at practices (currently the only place to see all three QB's at work) clearly sees that JC is the most impressive of the three. And if JC is currently the most impressive and best QB on the team, why in the world would Zorn start an inferior player in Collins?

Wasn't JC a candidate for MVP a few weeks back?

SkinsFreak wrote:RAY

The learning curve is different for all quarterbacks. Let's look down the list of the top QB's in terms of rating and see how their careers have unfolded:

1. Tony Romo—Did not throw a pass for almost three and a half years before bursting onto the scene.
2. Phillip Rivers—Drafted high, did not play much for two years, has been good but not great in three years as a starter.
3. Kurt Warner—Couldn't make it out of college, played Arena League, bagged groceries, made the Rams as a backup, got his chance due to injury, won two MVP's, declined, nobody wanted him, now back as an unquestioned starter.
4. Drew Brees—Played in one game as a rookie, posted QB ratings of 76.9 and 67.5 in his first two years starting, had two great years with the Chargers, was allowed to leave as a free agent in favor of Rivers, has had two and a half stellar years in New Orleans.
5. Chad Pennington—Played little in his first two years with the Jets, then broke out in his third year, has been steady if unspectacular since then.
6. Jeff Garcia—Canadian League, made the Pro Bowl in San Francisco, bounced to the Lions and Browns, both of whom had major QB issues, to the Eagles where he took over for an injured McNabb and led them to the playoffs, to Tampa Bay.

I defy you to find a pattern there and tell me where Campbell "should" be at this stage of his career. No, he hasn't shown a steady progression from game one as a starter through yesterday, his 32nd game behind center. But neither did most of the guys listed above, or many other solid starters around the league.

Take the quarterbacks of the last two teams the Redskins have faced. Matt Hasselbeck, under the coaching of Jim Zorn in Seattle, had many fits and starts with the Seahawks. Then, in 2005, he got it. A year later the Seahawks were in the Super Bowl and may well have won it if not for some strange officiating calls.

Just one question, Ray...

It took a couple of years for your boy, Hasselbeck, to "get it" in Seattle. Who are you to set or determine time parameters for a QB to learn Zorn's system, or any NFL system for that matter?

SkinsFreak

First, whoever said Hasselbeck was my boy? He's been a decent QB, but I wouldn't put a lot of money on him being inducted to the HOF. I think he's a system QB, learned to be effective, but not great.

As for the others you mentioned, God, how many times do we have to go through the same exercise?? Whatever....let's do it

1) Tony Romo.....what's your point? In his first 10 games PLAYING he thew 19 TDs, almost 2 per game average. Campbell is below 1 per game average after 30 + games. Romo's 2nd year, he threw 36 TD passes, more than Campbell has thrown in his entire career.

2) Phillip Rivers spent 2 years on the bench, Campbell spent 1 1/2 years on the bench. In his 1st year playing he threw for 3400 yards, 22 TD's 61.7 comp %, 92.0 rating. This year, on a bad team, he's got 3169 yards, 63.9 comp %. 26 TDs and a 102.0 QB rating. Compare that to Campbell this year who has 2560 yards, 63.8 comp %, 10 TDs, and 87.8 QB rating. The obvious issue here is the 26 TDs to 10 TDs.....not the yards and not the comp %......the POINTS MAN!!! Rivers is a play maker, and he puts points on the board. Campbell pads his stats with a lot of wasted yards that don't equate to points. No comparison here. Campbell can't park Rivers car.

3) Kurt Warner in his second year with the Rams, (first year starting) in 1999, he threw for 4400 yards and 41 TDs and a passer rating of 109.2. It will take Campbell another year just to catch Warner's first year TD total. Campbell currently has 32 in his career, averaging less than 1 per game. Do the math.

4) Drew Brees 1 year on the bench, 1st year starting he had 3300 yards and 17 TD's. Better than any of Campbell's three years starting.

5) Chad Pennington 2 years on the bench, first 12 games as the starter he threw for 3100 yards and 22 TD and 68.9 comp %. Again, Campbell has never come close to that, and it's not like Pennington is considered one of the all time greats, is he?

6) Jeff Garcia - 2nd year starting threw for 4278 yards and 31 TD's. (one TD shy of Campbell's career 32 TDs) His first year, first 10 games he had 2544 yards and 11 TDs. According to my math, Campbell is way behind Garcia, so again, what WAS your point?

All of these examples prove one thing.....the same thing I've been saying....Campbell should have been way more productive at this stage in his career, and every example you used (surprisingly) proved my point. Thank you.

The answer to your ONE question is that history of QB's in the NFL suggest that by and large, ALL of the good ones put up better numbers and better results in less time than Campbell has spent spinning his wheels in the mud.

There are even better examples that where "conveniently" left out. Like Rodgers, Ryan, Cutler, Favre, Montana, S. Young, and just about every QB that has ever worn a Redskin uniform!!!

Shall we?

Jurgensen (1961, Philly Eagles.) 3723 yards, 32 TDs in a 14 game season
(1964, 1st year Redskin) 2934 and 24 TDs

Jay Schroeder 2nd year starting 4109 yards 22 TDs

Mark Rypien 2nd year starting, 3758 yards, 22 TDs

Brett Favre 1st year starting (13 games) 3227 yards 18 TD

Donovan McNabb 2nd year starting 3365 yards, 21 TDs

Jay Cutler 2nd year 3497 yards, 20 TDs

Marc Bulger 2nd year starting 3845 yards, 22 TDs

Ben Roethlisberger (rookie year) 2621 yards, 17 TDs

Matt Ryan (Rookie this year) 13 games 2626 yards, 13 TDs

Aaron Rodgers 1st year starting 2897 yards, 20 TDs

Everyone of these guys has better numbers than Campbell.

SkinsFreak wrote:

VetSkinsFan wrote:The intent was fully comprehended. We've heard sporadically throughout the year that 'various people, JC not excluded, have had good practices.' And as I stated, on game day, all the good or bad practices in the world don't mean squat.

No, good practices by players was NOT the intent of my post. I'm fully aware that good or bad practices don't mean squat come game day, but that wasn't what I was getting at.

I said...

Some want to point to Collins' starts at the end of last season (a system he played in for over a decade) as evidence that he is best qualified to be the current starter. And besides a few lousy series in a few preseason games, very few have the first-hand knowledge as to whether Collins can play in Zorn's system. Not many get a chance to see all three QB's perform in practice to be able to make a reasonable comparison.

Matt Terl has been at practices and said "When you watch all three QBs take reps, it seems reasonably clear why Campbell is the starter, and why Zorn claims that he’s not even considered a switch."

That's the point. Matt Terl, a first-hand eyewitness at practices (currently the only place to see all three QB's at work) clearly sees that JC is the most impressive of the three. And if JC is currently the most impressive and best QB on the team, why in the world would Zorn start an inferior player in Collins?

Who the He!! is Matt Terl?? Oh, a blogger....and a fan like the rest of us. Now I'm impressed.

You're really reaching here to support your point.

I'm a first hand eye witness to a 9 point per game average over the past 4 weeks. I couldn't care less if they average more points than that in practice.

I remember the pre-season where the first team offense couldn't score....got blown out, and played extra snaps to try and find some sort of rythym....which they never did.