Changing Horses Mid-Stream? (Should we switch QB's)

[die cowboys die]

actually, yes, it IS silly. why? because 2004 left absolutely no doubt that we the FANS, the uneducated, ignorant fans, were WAY, WAY ahead of gibbs when it came to the QB situation. we wanted him gone long before gibbs finally grew a pair and yanked him. brunell was by far the worst QB in the league but JG refused to bench him.

so no, despite the superbowls and the overall respect he definitely deserves, this is one area of his coaching where we would be idiotic to just blindly agree with "well, gibbs says brunell should play so he must be ok". wrong, wrong, wrong!!!

uh, your violin playing guy makes literally no sense in response to what i said. it wasn't a complaint, i was stating a fact.

[PulpExposure]

As a Redskin, Ramsey has a much better record (passing and otherwise) than Brunell with far less talent around him. Check it out. In fact, Ramsey is far and away the Skins' yardage leader over the the last four year, in spite of actually playing only a season and a half. Also, his ratio of interceptions to TD's is comparable to other top NFL QB's.

Ramsey's ineptitude is a myth. I bring this up not to hawk Ramsey but to illustrate how easily perceptions can be distorted by a need to support an authority figure, in this case a coach.

You have said this in the past, and it's still wrong.

Also, his ratio of interceptions to TD's is comparable to other top NFL QB's.

Ramsey has thrown 34 TDs to 29 INTs. That's not comparable to any top NFL QB. That's a 53:47 Ratio of TD to INTs.

"Other" top QBs:

Peyton Manning: 248 TDs, 131 INTs. Ratio is 65:35.
Donovan McNabb: 131 TDs, 67 INTs. Ratio is 66:34.
Trent Green: 150 TDs, 93 INTs. Ratio is 62:38.
Matt Hasselbeck: 97 TDs, 59 INTs. Ratio is 62:38.
Brett Favre: 399 TDs, 258 INTs. Ratio is 61:39.
Tom Brady: 126 TDs, 68 INTs. Ratio is 65:35.
Carson Palmer: 52 TDs, 34 INTs. Ratio is 60:40.

Hell, lets look at some of the more mediocre QBs.

Aaron Brooks: 120 TDs, 84 INTs. Ratio is 59:41.
Gus Frerotte: 95 TDs, 79 INTs. Ratio is 55:45.
Charlie Batch: 53 TDs, 41 INTs. Ratio is 56:44.
Drew Bledsoe: 247 TDs, 201 INTs. Ratio is 55:45.

Yeah, he's barely above the 1 TD to 1 INT ratio, so he's not hanging out in Trent Dilferland. However, he doesn't even have as good a ratio as Gus Frerotte. Or Charlie Batch! Certainly they don't qualify as "top NFL QBs".

Don't let the facts get in the way of your hyberbole, though.

Oh and Mark Brunell? 174 TDs, 103 INTs, a 63:47 ratio....

[Steve Spurrier III]

Still, the whole point is... what can Campbell do that is better?

That's not really the point. If it were, we would have to include Todd Collins in the equation.

The point is that if Mark Brunell isn't going to be able to lead this team to the playoffs, then we ought to let Campbell get playing time so that he'll (hopefully) be able to do the job in 2007. And frankly, right now it doesn't look like Brunell can get the job done. That's not to say it's entirely his fault (it's not), and that's not to say I think Campbell can get us to the playoffs (I don't). That's just saying that if this team isn't going to be the contender we all hoped they would be, then it is irresponsible not to get our quarterback of the future some real work.

I'm not ready to write this season off - but if we lose to Houston, we need to be realistic and treat 2006 as a rebuilding season. And that's not the end of the world. A season of Campbell playing and everyone learning Saunders' system could go a long, long way in 2007 and 2008.

I think a more realistic scenario is that the Redskins are 2-5 going into the bye and Gibbs makes the switch then. And that really isn't a terrible idea. It shows the players that Gibbs really gave them a real shot, and it gives Campbell two full weeks to prepare for (guess who) the Cowboys.

[jru37726]

What can Campbell do better than Brunell?

Please tell me you are joking. How bout throwing the ball further than 20 yards.

How about leading our offense to more than one TD in 2 games. I can guarantee it.

How about not throwing a game-momentum changing interception in the opponents end zone.

Point out all the dumb TD:INT ratios all you want but Brunell hasnt done squat the last 3 years with this Redskins team. We won games last year despite Brunell's play. Like i said earlier, if he doesnt hit those two play in Dallas last year, what has he truly done? Sur ehe played OK in Denver....didnt we lose that game? In KC he played ok.....we lost that one too. He is so finished its sad. Please Joe.......wake up!!!!!!

[jru37726]

Jason Campbell will give Skins fans what they havent had all year.....HOPE.

[Steve Spurrier III]

How about leading our offense to more than one TD in 2 games. I can guarantee it.

How about not throwing a game-momentum changing interception in the opponents end zone.

See, this is a problem. When Campbell does get in, he's going to struggle and make bad decisions.

So if everyone is expecting wins and touchdowns, and we get interceptions and losses, what then?

We have to be mentally prepared for Campbell to struggle. Because at least some degree, he is going to - and that's just a natural step in the maturation process of a young quarterback.

[1niksder]

See, this is a problem. When Campbell does get in, he's going to struggle and make bad decisions.

This won't happen he'll be great, that's the response you'll get from this question. It will come from the same posters that were yelling "do you know how much we paid to get him" when Campbell was drafted. To these people drafting him was a bad move, 2 years later - not playing him will be a bad move

So if everyone is expecting wins and touchdowns, and we get interceptions and losses, what then?

Todd Collins or Ramsey will be back in the news

We have to be mentally prepared for Campbell to struggle. Because at least some degree, he is going to - and that's just a natural step in the maturation process of a young quarterback.

This would take time and Fans wanted ALL now.

Very good points SSIII will probably fall on deaf ears though

[jru37726]

We absolutely have to prepare for JC to fail somewhat but he has a brand new tank revving to go and he will make plays.....guaranteed. He will make some mistakes....of course....but he will definitely make some plays.....Mark Brunell makes no plays at all. It would be better to go thru the Campbell growing pains this year than to have a 4-12 season with #8 and no Campbell....isnt that common sense? Right now, nothing can be worse than Brunell.....wouldnt you agree? I wouldnt even mind seeing Todd Collins. Thats how much i feel Brunell is ineffective. He is a team killer right now.....nice guy but just an over the Mt Everest QB.

[REDEEMEDSKIN]

....isnt that common sense?

No, it's called an overblown reaction to to games where the entire team has come up short, so people have decided to mail the season in.

[joebagadonuts]

. When Campbell does get in, he's going to struggle and make bad decisions.

And that's different from what MB is currently doing.......how?

[Mursilis]

. When Campbell does get in, he's going to struggle and make bad decisions.

And that's different from what MB is currently doing.......how?

Brunell's making bad veteran decisions. If I have to explain the difference to you, then you just don't understand football!!

[jru37726]

Overblown reaction?

Have you watched these games? This team isnt even close to competitive....and it all starts with #8. How do you think the offensive line feels when Brunell walks right into a sack....how do you think the defense feels after they hold a team to punt 5 straight possessions but watch their QB stumble and bumble all over himself to 4 3 and outs and an INT at the opponenets goal line and score no points......it could possibly deflate a unit perhaps. I have a feeling when JC finally plays and we go right down the field on two nice scoring drives the defense will respond as well.....it all starts with #8. He doesnt have it anymore. He is done. Stick a fork in him....he's done folks.

Mark.....if you are reading this....please look at the tape and realize you are finished. Be a man and help the team out....make up some debilitationg injury....thanks Mark.

[thaiphoon]

To these people drafting him was a bad move, 2 years later - not playing him will be a bad move

Yes...when you spend millions of dollars and multiple draft picks on someone you're never going to use you've now committed two football sins.

First you overpaid for someone...

Then, now that that expensive player is taking up cap space and not contributing, you don't at least play him when the guy ahead of him has clearly not played well in the past 7 games dating back to last season and had a few games in the middle of last season where he approximated a good NFL QB but stunk up the joint a year earlier (2004)?? Unforgivable !!

As for the question someone asked

what can Campbell do better?

What can he do that is worse ?? Please...someone tell me!! As I said in another thread- if all Brunell is going to do is;

1.) Get sacked
2.) Hand the ball off
3.) Throw INT's that don't need to be thrown
4.) Throw the ball away
5.) etc...

Gee... Campbell can probably be "taught" to do that TOO !!

[thaiphoon]

SSIII said:

So if everyone is expecting wins and touchdowns, and we get interceptions and losses, what then?

We're getting that now ... what's the harm in playing JC again ??

[1niksder]

To these people drafting him was a bad move, 2 years later - not playing him will be a bad move

Yes...when you spend millions of dollars and multiple draft picks on someone you're never going to use you've now committed two football sins.

First you overpaid for someone...

Then, now that that expensive player is taking up cap space and not contributing, you don't at least play him when the guy ahead of him has clearly not played well in the past 7 games?? Unforgivable !!

As for the question someone asked

what can Campbell do better?

First there is a cap on what a rookie can make and as you know he way outside of a top 10 pick, so there was no overspending to speak of. Of the QBs drafted before him only one is currently starting. Like I said in 2004 when Mark wasn't pulled, The backup can't get the job done so Gibbs will go with what he has. Tha guy everyone wanted back then is the #3 in NY now

What can he do that is worse ?? Please...someone tell me!! As I said in another thread- if all Brunell is going to do is;

1.) Get sacked

Campbell is a lot more moblie than Brunell but the sacks

2.) Hand the ball off

Having someone to hand the ball to would help

3.) Throw INT's that don't need to be thrown

Favre, Culpepper, and Bledsoe all have thrown more INTs, all have young backup on the roster behind them, none being replaced this week

4.) Throw the ball away

That prevents INTs and hurts QB ratings. Mark has a higher rating than - Delhomme in Caroline, Frye in Cleveland, Simms in TB, Collins in Tenn, and Plummer in Denver. Plummer is the only one remotely worried about his job. The Panthers are missing their top WR - Cleveland doesn't have a O-line, TB is a mess in general as well is the Titans. Young was drafted to start but it's not save for him to be in there yet.

5.) etc...

Good point. he'll have to get use to picking himself up and dusting off his uni, Not throw the ball away and just force it, and as moblie as he is he want need to hand the ball off.

Gee... Campbell can probably be "taught" to do that TOO !!

Maybe they been trying to teach it to him but everytime he gets it the scheme changes

[Steve Spurrier III]

SSIII said:

So if everyone is expecting wins and touchdowns, and we get interceptions and losses, what then?

We're getting that now ... what's the harm in playing JC again ??

I'm in favor of playing Campbell - and I've said that. I just worry that some people have unrealistic expectations of him when he does get into the game.

[thaiphoon]

First there is a cap on what a rookie can make and as you know he way outside of a top 10 pick, so there was no overspending to speak of. Of the QBs drafted before him only one is currently starting. Like I said in 2004 when Mark wasn't pulled, The backup can't get the job done so Gibbs will go with what he has. Tha guy everyone wanted back then is the #3 in NY now

The point is that he's getting 1rst round money instead of getting 2nd or 3rd or 4th round money like he should be getting. additionally, we gave up how many picks to get him?? Picks that coulda been spent on some O-line and D-line help. Mathias Kiwanuka was available this year when we woulda drafted in the first.

thaiphoon wrote:
What can he do that is worse ?? Please...someone tell me!! As I said in another thread- if all Brunell is going to do is;

1.) Get sacked

Campbell is a lot more moblie than Brunell but the sacks
thaiphoon wrote:

I agree that JC is more mobile

2.) Hand the ball off

Having someone to hand the ball to would help

I don't buy this argument. We drafted Betts in what round again?? We paid a 3rd rounder for TJ Duckett. The good teams seem to have a way to block for their backup RB's and run the ball.

thaiphoon wrote:
3.) Throw INT's that don't need to be thrown

Favre, Culpepper, and Bledsoe all have thrown more INTs, all have young backup on the roster behind them, none being replaced this week

Favre isa future HOF'er, Bledsoe's team is tied for 1rst place in their division and Culpepper was just traded for over the off-season. none of these guys is going to get a quick hook. Favre should but the balance of his career is too much to bench him.

thaiphoon wrote:
4.) Throw the ball away

That prevents INTs and hurts QB ratings. Mark has a higher rating than - Delhomme in Caroline, Frye in Cleveland, Simms in TB, Collins in Tenn, and Plummer in Denver. Plummer is the only one remotely worried about his job. The Panthers are missing their top WR - Cleveland doesn't have a O-line, TB is a mess in general as well is the Titans. Young was drafted to start but it's not save for him to be in there yet.

JC can throw the ball away just as well as Mark. And do it faster since the ball will fly faster.

thaiphoon wrote:
5.) etc...

Good point. he'll have to get use to picking himself up and dusting off his uni, Not throw the ball away and just force it, and as moblie as he is he want need to hand the ball off.

And the end result will be a loss? We're getting that now...all while delaying the kid's progression.

thaiphoon wrote:
Gee... Campbell can probably be "taught" to do that TOO !!

Maybe they been trying to teach it to him but everytime he gets it the scheme changes

OTA this year was at over 90% attendance. They didn't cover offensive plays and when to throw the ball away during all this time??

[thaiphoon]

I'm in favor of playing Campbell - and I've said that. I just worry that some people have unrealistic expectations of him when he does get into the game.

I'm realistic...but you gotta start the kid sometime. Who knows ?? Maybe we have another Ben Roethlesberger / Tom Brady / Peyton Manning or Elway.

Maybe we have another Shuler. The point is at some time we have to find out if he's our guy. If he's not then we gotta find another QB. If we delay it now it just delays the day when we finally get our QB.

[1niksder]

I'm in favor of playing Campbell - and I've said that. I just worry that some people have unrealistic expectations of him when he does get into the game.

I'm realistic...but you gotta start the kid sometime. Who knows ?? Maybe we have another Ben Roethlesberger / Tom Brady / Peyton Manning or Elway.

Maybe we have another Shuler. The point is at some time we have to find out if he's our guy. If he's not then we gotta find another QB. If we delay it now it just delays the day when we finally get our QB.

After 2 games is not that time. Campbell didn't outright win the no 2 spot over Collins, if that doesn't tell you where he is at I don't know what will.

BTW Mathias Kiwanuka has one tackle all year, I think the Gnats should cut him, and play Lavar as a down lineman in his place.

[hailskins666]

I'm in favor of playing Campbell - and I've said that. I just worry that some people have unrealistic expectations of him when he does get into the game.

I'm realistic...but you gotta start the kid sometime. Who knows ?? Maybe we have another Ben Roethlesberger / Tom Brady / Peyton Manning or Elway.

Maybe we have another Shuler. The point is at some time we have to find out if he's our guy. If he's not then we gotta find another QB. If we delay it now it just delays the day when we finally get our QB.

agreed. we don't know. it would be nice to find out. we DO KNOW what we have in boonell. and its bad. man, 2004 called, it wants its 'years wosrt Qb' back.

if campell doesn't have what it takes, he had 14 games to prove it. then we can at least draft a replacement with the high draft pick he delivers if he fails. there is NO downside....

[thaiphoon]

After 2 games is not that time. Campbell didn't outright win the no 2 spot over Collins, if that doesn't tell you where he is at I don't know what will.

It tells me Gibbs stays with his veteran QB is what it tells me. Both Brunell and Collins are veteran QB's. Collins is #2 because he basically lived this offense for years.

Gibbs is supposedly biased toward the veteran due to his ability to not make stupid mistakes. Well Brunell is making them... all while dancing in the pocket and throwing passes into the dirt (shades of 2004). He hasn't played well in the past 7 games. He played well in a stretch of games in the middle of last season but hasn't produced at a decent level since before 2004. So where's the excuse for starting him again ?? Apparently I missed it.

I'm sorry my friend... we're most likely going to have to agree to disagree.

P.S. - Kiwanuka was just one option. There were other picks we coulda made at that spot which would've benefitted our team better than someone who isn't even active in the game until 2 injuries occur.

P.P.S- we still get 16 games in a season right?? Each counts the same as the others except conference and divisional games are a bit more important in the sense of the way tie-breakers are done. We just lost 2 conference games including a dividional one and are 0-2. Yes, its only been 2 games. What will be the excuse when we're 0-3 or 0-4 ? Given the wya we're playing I have zero confidence we'll be .500 at the beginning of October.

[1niksder]

After 2 games is not that time. Campbell didn't outright win the no 2 spot over Collins, if that doesn't tell you where he is at I don't know what will.

It tells me Gibbs stays with his veteran QB is what it tells me. Both Brunell and Collins are veteran QB's. Collins is #2 because he basically lived this offense for years.

Gibbs is supposedly biased toward the veteran due to his ability to not make stupid mistakes. Well Brunell is making them... all while dancing in the pocket and throwing passes into the dirt (shades of 2004). He hasn't played well in the past 7 games. He played well in a stretch of games in the middle of last season but hasn't produced at a decent level since before 2004. So where's the excuse for starting him again ?? Apparently I missed it.

I'm sorry my friend... we're most likely going to have to agree to disagree.

I'm not disagreeing I'm just saying "it ain't happening week two of the season and Houston up next.

P.S. - Kiwanuka was just one option. There were other picks we coulda made at that spot which would've benefitted our team better than someone who isn't even active in the game until 2 injuries occur.

Kedrick Goldson was drafted and a lot later, he isout producing Kiwanuka after two games. Will that hold up? Who knows but the draft is a crap shoot that the Skins have been moving away from. So what he cost (in picks) doesn't matter to the front office or where he was drafted for that matter. They decided they wanted a guy and did what it took to get him. Did the same thing for ey and McIntosh

P.P.S- we still get 16 games in a season right?? Each counts the same as the others except conference and divisional games are a bit more important in the sense of the way tie-breakers are done. We just lost 2 conference games including a dividional one and are 0-2. Yes, its only been 2 games. What will be the excuse when we're 0-3 or 0-4 ? Given the wya we're playing I have zero confidence we'll be .500 at the beginning of October.

2 games down and you're ready to jump ship? Why wait a week or two get off now, if Campbell comes in and puts up Ls you'll be gone from the sound of things anyway

[thaiphoon]

I'm not jumping ship (i.e. - refusing to root for the Redskins). I'm simply being realistic about the current heading we're on and hope the skipper will tack into more favorable winds.

I fail to see the realism in the "Its only two games" mantra that appears to be repeated ad nauseum by some - followed by either a defense of Brunell or people stating that they see improvement from game #1. It smacks of Kevin Bacon in the movie Animal House shrieking " Remain Calm, All is Well". Its 2 games of this season gone. Not to be repeated. They hurt even more due the conferenc/divisional value (you remember we used that tie breaker to our advantage last year right?). Add to that the previous 7 games (4 preseason, 2 playoff and last year's regular season finale) and we have done barely more than squat on offense for the past 36 quarters of football. Add to that that the main reason we were able to rattle off those wins at the end of the year last year was due to our running game and I'm sure where you can see why I'm not too high on Brunell.

I mean I guess I've seen improvement from Week #1 in that we found a way to make a few plays on Special Teams. Now I know the old saying is that Special Teams can win or lose you the ball-game, but thats pretty thin gruel to hang your hat on if all you can point to is that we have a punter who can punt and one of our returners ran a kick back for a TD once. Playoff teams don't get to the playoffs if all they have are decent special teams and an offense that can't move the ball.

Like I said, I'm a realist. I know you won't believe me but I want us to get better. I really do want Brunell to get better because I WANT TO WIN BABY !! Nothing would make me more happy than to be proven wrong by him (honestly). I just don't think its going to happen any longer with Mark and the longer we wait to see what JC has in store for us the longer we wait until we find our QB of the future.

Like I said before... I b%tch because I care. I root for my team regardless of who is playing. If they stink it up I say so. If they play great I also say so. Forgive me tho if I stay out of the kool-aid line while we're 0-2 and have looked awful. I'll be rooting on Sunday for the Burgundy and Gold regardless of record... never doubt that my friend.

[SkinsFreak]

Hey guys. I'm currently on a 5 day fishing trip in the Gulf of Mexico and am using a computer at a hotel in Naples. So I won't be able to respond for a few days until I return.

I did see the game however. Not very impressed with Brunell. This thread is very long but from the few posts I saw, sounds like most of you have the same opinion. John Madden was correct, not the right person at QB, and I agree. Jason needs to play.

My signature has not changed...

I really hope Gibbs and Co. see the light.

BTW - Caught a 347 pound Marlin. SWEEEEEEEET!

[Mursilis]

BTW - Caught a 347 pound Marlin. SWEEEEEEEET

Obviously, Brunell wasn't throwing that fish, or no one would've caught it!