1st Test Quiz Questions To Comparative Religious Studies 101

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Post by TincoSkin »

cvillehog wrote:
TincoSkin wrote:parts of the old testament i can see as mythology.. genisis yeah i can see that but when they start talking about egypt and rome and major civilizations, babylon, etc.. i mean, you can go to babylon today.. its a little run down .. maybe a lot run down come to think of it.. but its still there.. that isnt mythology


I think if you look into mythology at all, you will see that it surrounds real people, places, and things.


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Post by cvillehog »

TincoSkin wrote:
cvillehog wrote: how does the support the assertion that the Bible is the most accurate historical document ever, or whatever other claims you've made?

[Editited: rethought some wording]


oh common... i never said it was the most accurate or anything of the sort.. in fact i said,


"it shares a perspective that cant be discounted one that we must take into account when considering other historical evidence."


it has facts so we should consider it as containing some facts.. look at other things contained in it that may be facts and investigate them using other historical objects, letters, books, statues, whatever and decided if they are indeed facts.. its a part, along with a lot of other collected stuff from the past that grouped together creates our understanding..


Studying Shakespeare plays tells us a lot about our history as well. I think most Christians would agree with me that you can't separate the faith from the text. The historical value of the Bible doesn't stand on its own, but only as corroboration. The value in the text is overwhelmingly the religious material (to those who find value in that, of which I am not one).
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Post by TincoSkin »

other writtings of the time dont "stand on their own" but we use them to investigate and to help decide what is fact.. plato wrote about athens, a real place, being at war with atlantis, may not be real, but people, scientists, search their whole lives for it..


herodotus has been called the father of history but he has also been called the father of lies.. he is a contested historical figure because some of the things he wrote about may not have been true or were a scewed view.. but that does not mean that the muses of herodotus shouls be discounted.. he told us about the rise and fall of prussia about the battle of marathon and the rise of xerxes.. these happened but im sure we cant trust him because a book cant stand on its own.
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Post by TincoSkin »

in addition shakespeare was a poet the bible was written by a bunch of different people.. it is a compilation of historical documents
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Post by Irn-Bru »

I agree more with the point cvillehog is making here than almost anything else that I'm reading in this thread (past 6 pages).

Even the writers of the Bible who were writing history had a primarily theological intent when penning scripture. To separate completely theology from the historical narratives of scripture is a waste of time. Jewish authors believed that what they were writing was history, but that it was history of the people of God.

Besides, many common assumptions behind the question "well, what happened?" can be screwed up anyway. It seems to me that people often assume that history, when done well, will somehow be 'objective' in a meaningful sense, and I find this to be utterly false.

I'd highly recommend Tim O'Brien's The Things They Carried to anyone interested in the nature of story-telling.
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Post by redskins12287 »

[quote="cvillehog"]I can tell you are all offended [quote]

I was not offended with what you said, as much as I disagree, it is your opinion. Rather, I was more annoyed with the way you expressed it. It seemed like you just thew out some vauge points until someone asked you to explain yourself, and I simply found this annoying.
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Post by cvillehog »

redskins12287 wrote:
cvillehog wrote:I can tell you are all offended


I was not offended with what you said, as much as I disagree, it is your opinion. Rather, I was more annoyed with the way you expressed it. It seemed like you just thew out some vauge points until someone asked you to explain yourself, and I simply found this annoying.


Annoyed. Offended. Flumoxed. Whatever adjective you want. The point is the same.
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Post by redskins12287 »

cvillehog wrote:
redskins12287 wrote:
cvillehog wrote:I can tell you are all offended


I was not offended with what you said, as much as I disagree, it is your opinion. Rather, I was more annoyed with the way you expressed it. It seemed like you just thew out some vauge points until someone asked you to explain yourself, and I simply found this annoying.


Annoyed. Offended. Flumoxed. Whatever adjective you want. The point is the same.


What point is that?
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Post by cvillehog »

redskins12287 wrote:
cvillehog wrote:
redskins12287 wrote:
cvillehog wrote:I can tell you are all offended


I was not offended with what you said, as much as I disagree, it is your opinion. Rather, I was more annoyed with the way you expressed it. It seemed like you just thew out some vauge points until someone asked you to explain yourself, and I simply found this annoying.


Annoyed. Offended. Flumoxed. Whatever adjective you want. The point is the same.


What point is that?


That you didn't like what I was posting. Please don't take this in a negative direction as you have already tried to do.
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Post by TincoSkin »

FanfromAnnapolis wrote:I agree more with the point cvillehog is making here than almost anything else that I'm reading in this thread (past 6 pages).

Even the writers of the Bible who were writing history had a primarily theological intent when penning scripture. To separate completely theology from the historical narratives of scripture is a waste of time. Jewish authors believed that what they were writing was history, but that it was history of the people of God.



you are right in understanding that it is impossible to separate an authors intent from there finished work, we can not separate the religiosity from the historical nature of the bible. but that dosnt make it usless as a historical document. it is a religious document but at the same time being a religious document does in no way negate the fact that it has historical significance both in its depiction of a religious belife as well as its depiction of the times during which these relgious belifes were formed.

FanfromAnnapolis wrote:Besides, many common assumptions behind the question "well, what happened?" can be screwed up anyway. It seems to me that people often assume that history, when done well, will somehow be 'objective' in a meaningful sense, and I find this to be utterly false.


i addressed this already in my first entry after this argument started...

"jesus was alive.. he was a real person though he may not have been the son of god. thomas was a real person, the romans were a real empire, the jews were real tribes, the egyptions were really a civilization.
now if jesus wasnt the son of god but he is real that makes the bible flawed, but not fiction. i cant think of one historical text that isnt flawed.. they all are because they are written by the winners.. you win a war and you have power or money you get to write history to serve your future.. "
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Post by ii7-V7 »

I was the one who stated that the bible was the most historically accurate document we possess. Notice that I said document. Of course it is full of unverifiable occurences. I mean to say that no one can verify that the Red Sea actually parted, nor can they do any more than claim that it in fact didn't. Its simply unverfiable. That doesn't make it true or false.

The Bible has been demonstrated in several ways to be a document with an enormous amount of historical truth. To look at the Bible in historic terms you must look at it from a number of angles; textual criticism, internal congruity, predictive prophecy, non-biblical texts, archeology, etc.

The Texts themselves make a powerful argument for accuracy. The Dead Sea Scrolls found only 50 years ago contained manuscripts of the Old Testament that were written prior to the coming of Christ (if you believe in that). These manuscripts were almost identical copies of what we have in todays OT. For over two thousand years the text of the OT has remained almost exactly the same. The few differences that do exist are typographically errors such as misplaced letters and punctuation. If you are willing to throw this evidence out on the basis of a misplaced comma then you must also throw out every document composed prior to 1450 and the invention of the printing press. The fact is that the OT has survived over two thousand years with over 99% consistency from copy to copy. There are over 5300 copies of the New Testament dating back to 200 A.D. and earlier....only 168 years after Christ death. To put this in Perspective there are less than 700 copies of Homer's Illiad which is the second largest body of ancient manuscripts and only 8 surviving copies of the works of Herodotus. The copies of the Illiad that exist have only 95% accuracy.....and substantially fewer coppies exist...So there is little...practically no variation in the written word of the Bible in the last 2400 years.

The Bible has tremendous internal congruity and the unique phenomenon of predictive prophecy, that is that the Bible predicts events that are later corraborated. There are people who will list for you the innacuracies of the bible text and point out the places where the bible has contradictions, but when you get down to it these arguments are pedantic at best. For example, Scott Bidstrup claims that the story of Jesus should be thrown out because of this glaring example of inconsistency,”,’He is not here, he is raised, just as he said." (Matt. 28:6) or "He is not here, he has been raised." (Mark 15:6, Luke 24:6)’,” I’ll deal with that much difference in a 2000 year old text where it has zero impact on the texts meaning. Other differences he sites are errors in transcribing numbers such as….”While describing the same incident, 2 Samuel 8:4 states that King David captured 1700 horsemen, and 1 Chron. 18:4 claims he captured 7,000.” I’ll accept that criticism and move on quite happily when dealing with an even that occurred over 2500 years ago.

There are instances of other surviving documents that speak to biblical events such as the works of Josephus, Tacitus, and even the Talmud. Yes, I am aware that there is criticism of some of those texts but the burden of those errors should fall upon those authors, and should not be ascribed to the Bible.

Then there are the accounts of Jesus ministry on earth. These were written within the lifetimes of the apostles themselves. And while you can say that they aren’t primary source material they are about as close as your going to get for any ancient document.

There is a surprisingly accurate discussion of all this here http://answers.yahoo.com/question/;_ylt ... 6022508775

Another interesting series of articles I stumbled on a while back. I haven't read them all!
http://www.aish.com/literacy/jewishhist ... istory.asp

Then there is archeology which has generally supported the claims of the Bible down to finding the Walls of Jericho, Lot’s Cave, the city’s of Sodom and Gomorrah. These are items thought to be mythological in natures for over a thousand years that were recently discovered.

To say that the bible is only accurate when corroborated by other evidence shows a pretty shallow understanding of the historical process. And if you want to take an incredibly strict secular/materialist point of view on this topic then you also have to throw out all other history as well. Now, I don’t know how you define fact and fiction, but it is quite clear that the bible is no more fiction than are the crusades, the fall of Rome, etc.

There are obviously disagreements on the historicity of the Bible with the minimalist claiming that there is no absolutely indisputable proof of the bibles history, and with maximalist claiming that its a reliable historical document. The problem with using this to discredit the bible is that this spectrum of debate exists for most historical documents...so again you must throw out not only the bible but most other works of ancient history as well.

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Post by Irn-Bru »

I think that you are both talking past me (and perhaps cvillehog) a bit. [Does it help if I tell you that I believe the Bible to be historically accurate in its claims?]

I think what cvillehog was saying (he can come correct me if I'm wrong), is that the bible makes plenty of claims of this nature: God created the universe; the first humans disobeyed God; God chose the nation of Israel as His; God's anger sent Israel into exile; Jesus lived and walked on the earth and was the Son of God; Jesus raised people from the dead. . .

The list could go on and on. Either the claims of the Bible with respect to God are true or they aren't, and the historicity of the fall of the Roman empire has nothing to do with it. The Bible is not limiting itself to asserting that a man named Jesus existed--it claims that He's God. It claims that He rose from the dead.

Maybe it's "historical fiction" if false?
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Post by Redskin in Canada »

This thread departed long ago from the original topic perhaps for good reason. But there is a post that captures some meaning about religions in general:

tazlah wrote:Personally, the following Buddhist conceptmakes sense to me


You see, it is not important to me if any of us is religious or not. It is not important to me what religion you have or even none. What it is fascinating to me is the role that religions and religious beliefs, including anti-religious beliefs, have had in the development of cultures in general and our modern culture in particular.

Some of the most influential political movements in history have had a religious or anti-religious motivation. For example, Who can deny the importance of the anti-religious stands of the French Revolution and its contribution to the development of modern democracy? It is about the real power of ideas.

I wish somebody would have picked up and commented on some of the books I mentioned in one of my previous posts in this thread.

By the way, if somebody is interested in the Buddhist tradition, maybe the Shintotradition should -really- become of interest as well... :wink:
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Post by redskins12287 »

Good point RIC...quite interseting. Just look at Ireland, they have been fighting for years over not just religion in general, but which form of a specific religion to practice!

The sort of thing that RIC is talking about (that is, if I underatand correctly), is going on right now in the US. Not so much that religion was the motivation, but is the basis or reason people will go one way or the other on an issue. Just look at the recent immigration issues. Christians are totally diviided on this issue. Almost the same with abortion, but rather a realitiviley small number of people and then the majority, same with gay marriage.

So I guess what I'm saying is that religion can be the motivation, or the basis for one's belief on an issue that is not directly "religous."
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Post by Redskin in Canada »

redskins12287 wrote:So I guess what I'm saying is that religion can be the motivation, or the basis for one's belief on an issue that is not directly "religous."
You got it!
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Post by redskins12287 »

Redskin in Canada wrote:
redskins12287 wrote:So I guess what I'm saying is that religion can be the motivation, or the basis for one's belief on an issue that is not directly "religous."
You got it!


sweet.
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Post by cvillehog »

chad, I'd like to point you to some quotations by Thomas Jefferson, who I think we would all agree was smarter and more accomplished than either you or me:
"The whole history of these books [the Gospels] is so defective and doubtful that it seems vain to attempt minute enquiry into it: and such tricks have been played with their text, and with the texts of other books relating to them, that we have a right, from that cause, to entertain much doubt what parts of them are genuine. In the New Testament there is internal evidence that parts of it have proceeded from an extraordinary man; and that other parts are of the fabric of very inferior minds. It is as easy to separate those parts, as to pick out diamonds from dunghills."


"Among the sayings and discourses imputed to him [Jesus] by his biographers, I find many passages of fine imagination, correct morality, and of the most lovely benevolence; and others again of so much ignorance, so much absurdity, so much untruth, charlatanism, and imposture, as to pronounce it impossible that such contradictions should have proceeded from the same being."


"And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerve in the brain of Jupiter. But may we hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with this artificial scaffolding, and restore to us the primitive and genuine doctrines of this most venerated reformer of human errors."
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Post by ii7-V7 »

Relying upon the authority of others is a pretty weak argument. Some of the most brilliant scholars ever to walk this earth would disagree with Thomas Jefferson. I wouldn't call Thomas Jefferson any more brilliant than Thomas Aquinas, but obviously each one is coming at this problem with their own bias, just as you and I.

I'm not trying to convince or convert you. The Bible is a unique document for sure. You'll surprised to know that I don't line up on the side of inerrancy, but I recognize that it is a document containing much wisdom and fact, and obviously I believe in its spiritual message. I guess it all come down to how rigidly you chose to define fact, and fiction? If a document contains the slightest hint of unverifiable, untestable information should it be considered fiction? Should we throw out all of Churchill's biography simply because we can't verify some of the conversations held? I don't think that that is a standard that will get you very far. But if a document/book chooses to ignore available information, expands on existing conspiracy theories that have long sense been shot down, and slanders an exsiting organization (Opus Dei) with an outstanding reputation simply because it makes a good story....that is clearly fiction.

I think that you have missed my point, which is that comparing the Bible to the Davinci Code and attempting to equate them is a gross slap in the face to all Christians, Muslims, and Jews.

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Post by TincoSkin »

cvillehog wrote:chad, I'd like to point you to some quotations by Thomas Jefferson, who I think we would all agree was smarter and more accomplished than either you or me:
"The whole history of these books [the Gospels] is so defective and doubtful that it seems vain to attempt minute enquiry into it: and such tricks have been played with their text, and with the texts of other books relating to them, that we have a right, from that cause, to entertain much doubt what parts of them are genuine. In the New Testament there is internal evidence that parts of it have proceeded from an extraordinary man; and that other parts are of the fabric of very inferior minds. It is as easy to separate those parts, as to pick out diamonds from dunghills."


"Among the sayings and discourses imputed to him [Jesus] by his biographers, I find many passages of fine imagination, correct morality, and of the most lovely benevolence; and others again of so much ignorance, so much absurdity, so much untruth, charlatanism, and imposture, as to pronounce it impossible that such contradictions should have proceeded from the same being."


"And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerve in the brain of Jupiter. But may we hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with this artificial scaffolding, and restore to us the primitive and genuine doctrines of this most venerated reformer of human errors."




jefferson is right



to start another argument, jeff also said, "The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government.


The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. "
Thomas Jefferson


now im not sayn lets get a militia together but we do need to do somthing about our broken government.

everyone can yell now.
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Post by UK Skins Fan »

Well, I'm going to go off on a different tangent. DaVinci Code is currently provoking more debate on Christianity and the wider issues of faith, than has taken place for some time. For that, perhaps the churches should be grateful, since apathy might be considered the greatest threat to any religion.

Shame that the movie is a bit of a duffer, by the accounts that I've heard.
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Post by Justice Hog »

UK Skins Fan wrote:Well, I'm going to go off on a different tangent. DaVinci Code is currently provoking more debate on Christianity and the wider issues of faith, than has taken place for some time. For that, perhaps the churches should be grateful, since apathy might be considered the greatest threat to any religion.


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Post by redskins12287 »

UK Skins Fan wrote:Well, I'm going to go off on a different tangent. DaVinci Code is currently provoking more debate on Christianity and the wider issues of faith, than has taken place for some time. For that, perhaps the churches should be grateful, since apathy might be considered the greatest threat to any religion.

Shame that the movie is a bit of a duffer, by the accounts that I've heard.


Good point. The pastor at my church spoke about it the past 2 weeks I think.
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Post by ii7-V7 »

UK Skins Fan wrote:Well, I'm going to go off on a different tangent. DaVinci Code is currently provoking more debate on Christianity and the wider issues of faith, than has taken place for some time. For that, perhaps the churches should be grateful, since apathy might be considered the greatest threat to any religion.

Shame that the movie is a bit of a duffer, by the accounts that I've heard.


Agreed, Thats why I'm not upset about the movie or book. It does however bother me that because the story is powerful people give it more creedance than they otherwise would. Its also bothersome to me that they treat Opus Dei so viciously, when that organization has done so much to help so many people.

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Post by tazlah »

I like that it's got people talking, questioning, researching for themselves to decide what they believe and why they believe it. And that's a good thing. It's not good to follow anything blindly, because you've been told to, or your parents did or their parents before them. Any faith will desire that you ask questions for yourself, to learn the truth in what you believe, so you can follow your beliefs with conviction, integrity and a pure heart.
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Post by crazyhorse1 »

Justice Hog wrote:
NikiH wrote:The story is fiction, the evidence presented is not. The evidence that he uses through out the story is fact. The movie actually motivated me to do some research. A lot of what is represented in the story is fact. The story itself is not fact. The story is from Dan Brown's imagination.


I think there in lies the rub. Because the book is partially based in fact, it is very easy for people to assume it is fact-based (i.e., non-fiction). Once a person does that, they start thinking, "Oh My God! Everything I learned in Sunday School is B.S.!!?!?!"

Then again, while I wouldn't say that everything in the Bible is fiction, I do believe in theory that Christianity, as we know it today, has been shaped and molded (maybe even bastardized) by our forefathers to the point that maybe, just maybe, what we're being taught isn't the "gospel".

When it comes right down to it, it's about "faith". You either have it, or your don't.


Pretty much everything we learned in Sunday school, historically speaking, was/is BS. The bible's a collection of tales, songs, teaching, etc. What's it's not is serious history. A lot of what Brown puts in his book is fact based or what we generally consider valid research, some is historical speculation, and much is the product of the imagination of the novelist. Mary might well have married Jesus. DaVinci might have done this, done that. Did Christ rise from the dead? Walk on water? Was there a killer monk?
The third proposion is easily the most believable.
The whole of Dan Brown's work is more believable as history than Genesis or Exodus, neither of which occured.
To see the church lay claim to a bunch of fantasies and build an empire on them and then heap scorn on a thriller novelist who throws in his own two cents of nonsense is a sight for sore eyes.
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