Brunell / GIBBS

JPFair · Post by **JPFair** » Mon Sep 12, 2005 10:07 pm

Let me be perfectly clear on this, are you saying that Joe Gibbs is a liar? Has Joe Gibbs lied to someone?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but where, when, and in what outlet did Joe Gibbs, who is the head coach of a football team and is paid to make decisions, say that Patrick Ramsey is and will continue to be the starter no matter what his performance on the field is. Yes, Gibbs did say that Ramsey was the starter, and he was, in fact, the starter. He got the majority of the reps in pre-season, he started the pre-season games, and he started the opening game. But, where in the rule book does it say that the Head Coach doesn't have the authority to replace individuals that he feels aren't performing at a level that he feels gives us the best chance to win. Where does it say that, once you're declared the starter, that you will remain the starter even if you play inconsistantly, have a propensity towards turnovers, and generally plays poor?

Joe Gibbs naming Brunell the starter is his job. He's the one who will deal with the decision, and he'll be the one whose legacy will ultimately be decided by his decisions. But, he has never lied to anyone about it. He named Ramsey the starter, and now he feels that Brunell should start. That's what head coaches do!! But, to call him a liar? I challenge anyone, anywhere, anytime, to show me documented evidence that will incriminate Joe Gibbs, the human being, not the football coach, as a liar. And, when trying to produce such documentation, one should differentiate between telling someone that Patrick Ramsey is who we think will win us ball games this year, and making a football decision that results in Ramsey giving up his starting job. Show me something where Gibbs said "Ramsey is our starter, he will not have to worry about being replaced if he plays poorly, and no matter how many interceptions or bad decisions he makes, he'll be our starter. If someone can show me where Gibbs says something like that, then I'll retract my comments. But, someone should think long and hard before they call Joe Gibbs, the person, a liar. He is an honest man of integrity and honor. If you don't like his way of coaching a football team, that's one thing. But, to come out and call him a liar is a completely different story.

skinsfanno9 · Post by **skinsfanno9** » Mon Sep 12, 2005 10:12 pm

JPFair wrote:Let me be perfectly clear on this, are you saying that Joe Gibbs is a liar? Has Joe Gibbs lied to someone?

Yeah, it certainly appears that way, doesn't it? Again, this is the first time I can ever remember Gibbs doing anything like this, so I'm almost inclined to believe a Ramsey explosion at half-time or something. Barring that, Gibbs clearly lied to Ramsey. He never intended to have Ramsey be the starter - certainly not this season, and probably not at the end of last season. Bottom line, he has no confidence in Ramsey and EVERY public action he has done as indicated this, from signing Brunell to signing Campbell.

Gibbs should have unloaded Ramsey in the offseason. We could have gotten more for it. As it stands now, unless something shady occured on Ramsey's part behind the scenes, Gibbs runs the risk of coming off looking like a liar to the team - someone who's word you cannot trust. If this is the case, we will find out if this is the case via "anonymous reports" over the next few weeks.

EDIT: Honestly, does ANYONE think he gave Ramsey a legitimate chance at being the starter after proclaiming him so, both at the end of last season and this season? Truly, any coach would be questioned for this, and rightly so.

Snout · Post by **Snout** » Mon Sep 12, 2005 10:13 pm

I understand that turnovers are a problem, and I can understand Gibbs' insistence that the QB not turn the ball over. But I have no confidence in Brunell whatsoever.

I hope that Redskins trade Ramsey before the end of the week. I cannot imagine him taking the field again in a Redskins uniform. Not after this. Give him his wish so that we can pick up another QB.

I wish Hasselback were still around. Maybe we can get him back from the Giants.

If not, I predict that Campbell will be our starter at the end of the season.

skinpride1 · Post by **skinpride1** » Mon Sep 12, 2005 10:36 pm

JPFair wrote:Let me be perfectly clear on this, are you saying that Joe Gibbs is a liar? Has Joe Gibbs lied to someone?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but where, when, and in what outlet did Joe Gibbs, who is the head coach of a football team and is paid to make decisions, say that Patrick Ramsey is and will continue to be the starter no matter what his performance on the field is. Yes, Gibbs did say that Ramsey was the starter, and he was, in fact, the starter. He got the majority of the reps in pre-season, he started the pre-season games, and he started the opening game. But, where in the rule book does it say that the Head Coach doesn't have the authority to replace individuals that he feels aren't performing at a level that he feels gives us the best chance to win. Where does it say that, once you're declared the starter, that you will remain the starter even if you play inconsistantly, have a propensity towards turnovers, and generally plays poor?

Joe Gibbs naming Brunell the starter is his job. He's the one who will deal with the decision, and he'll be the one whose legacy will ultimately be decided by his decisions. But, he has never lied to anyone about it. He named Ramsey the starter, and now he feels that Brunell should start. That's what head coaches do!! But, to call him a liar? I challenge anyone, anywhere, anytime, to show me documented evidence that will incriminate Joe Gibbs, the human being, not the football coach, as a liar. And, when trying to produce such documentation, one should differentiate between telling someone that Patrick Ramsey is who we think will win us ball games this year, and making a football decision that results in Ramsey giving up his starting job. Show me something where Gibbs said "Ramsey is our starter, he will not have to worry about being replaced if he plays poorly, and no matter how many interceptions or bad decisions he makes, he'll be our starter. If someone can show me where Gibbs says something like that, then I'll retract my comments. But, someone should think long and hard before they call Joe Gibbs, the person, a liar. He is an honest man of integrity and honor. If you don't like his way of coaching a football team, that's one thing. But, to come out and call him a liar is a completely different story.

YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSsTo ramsey,the fans,the team.quote"I want ramsey to be the one to lead us to the playoffs"by the man himself.

JPFair · Post by **JPFair** » Mon Sep 12, 2005 10:58 pm

Quote:
JPFair wrote:
Let me be perfectly clear on this, are you saying that Joe Gibbs is a liar? Has Joe Gibbs lied to someone?

Yeah, it certainly appears that way, doesn't it?

O.K. Well, then let's discuss the fact that you think Joe Gibbs is a liar. Lets do so by discussin each, and ever sentence you just posted, shall we? And, if it establishes conclusively that Joe Gibbs is a liar, then I'll admit it. But, before we go further, I'm sure you're aware that Head Coaches have the authority to make these type of decisions. That being said, lets' continue...

Again, this is the first time I can ever remember Gibbs doing anything like this, so I'm almost inclined to believe a Ramsey explosion at half-time or something

You don't remember the whole Schroeder/Williams situation? The Rypien situation? And, when you say that a Ramsey explosion at half-time might be something that you are inclined to believe, are you suggesting that such an explosion is acceptable? Are you suggesting that the QB can get away with a half-time explosion, and not face any repercussions from the person who is in charge? This is not a case of the inmates running the asylum. Joe Gibbs is the boss, not Patrick Ramsey. If such an explosion occured by Patrick Ramsey, then discipline in whatever form the Head Coach deems necessary is not only warranted, but expected. Explain to me how an explosion by Ramsey at half-time is concrete, irrefutable, documented proof that Joe Gibbs is a liar? I don't think you can, but I'll certainly be willing to listen to your attempt at it.

Barring that, Gibbs clearly lied to Ramsey.

Clearly? Well, show me the link. Show me the newspaper article. Let me hear the audio clip that incriminates Gibbs as being a liar. Show me where Joe Gibbs says something to the effect of "You're the starter, and no matter how you play, no matter how many interceptions you throw, no matter how good anyone else plays, and no matter what my football instincts tell me, you're the starter. Again, I don't think you'll be able to show me such proof, but I'll wait patiently to hear it from you.

He never intended to have Ramsey be the starter - certainly not this season, and probably not at the end of last season

In the words of the late, great, Clara Peller, WHERES THE BEEF? Show me the proof that this was the case. If Joe Gibbs never intended for Ramsey to be the starter, do you honestly think that Gibbs would even start Ramsey in the first game of the season? Do you think Joe Gibbs doesn't realize the urgency with which even the first game must be played? Are you suggesting that Gibbs started Ramsey vs Chicago as a sort of "token" gesture and hoped that he'd get injured? Do you think Joe Gibbs would be satisfied if the Redskins had lost the game so he could name Brunell the starter? My question is this, if Gibbs never intended him to be the starter this year, why even bother starting him in the first game of the year. Is the first game of the year not as important as the second? As Gibbs said, plans change. Stuff happens. He's the coach, he has authority to make these type of decisions. Deal with it, but don't call him a liar without air-tight evidence to support your claim.

Bottom line, he has no confidence in Ramsey and EVERY public action he has done as indicated this, from signing Brunell to signing Campbell.

Is he required by NFL statute to have confidence in Ramsey? Did Gibbs have any say in selecting Ramsey in the draft? Hypothetically speaking, so what if he doesn't have any confidence in Patrick Ramsey. A lot of NFL teams don't have confidence in him either, which is why they've stacked the box for the last three years. Are they liars too? It's called football. If Gibbs doesn't like what he sees in Ramsey, then he's obligated to make changes. I for one, would hope that he would make a change if he doesn't have confidence in Ramsey. But, like I said, there's nowhere in the book of football that says Gibbs is required to have confidence in Ramsey. So, where's the evidence that he lied about it? It's commonly accepted in NFL circles that the Head Coach talks the talk during his press conferances, but once they're in the locker room, that's sacred ground. What goes on back there is not for public consumption.

Gibbs should have unloaded Ramsey in the offseason.

Why? He named him the starter, and at the time, thought that he was our best chance to win. In addition, he thought that he would improve his mental approach to the game, he thought he could be a student of the game and learn to cut back on the mistakes that he's made. He was confident that he would improve, eliminate the turnovers, and lead the Redskins to victories. Unfortunately, Ramsey didn't live up to his end of the bargain while Joe Gibbs did. Gibbs did every single thing in his power to prepare for Ramsey to be the starter, up to and including him, yes, you guessed it, starting. He started in the pre-season, didn't improve, started in the first game, and still didn't improve. It's time to make a change in Gibbs' eyes, but where's the proof that he lied to him? I want evidence. To make such an allegation, surely you have to have evidence that he's a liar. I'm waiting.

We could have gotten more for it.

How could we have gotten more for it, when Ramsey was our starter AT THE TIME. There's no lying on Gibbs part there.

As it stands now, unless something shady occured on Ramsey's part behind the scenes, Gibbs runs the risk of coming off looking like a liar to the team - someone who's word you cannot trust

Oh, so now he's a liar UNLESS something shady happened on Ramseys part. It's gone from Gibbs' being a liar to Gibbs' being a liar UNLESS. But, just a few moments ago you said you were inclined to believe that Ramsey had a half-time explosioin of some kind. That was what you said you were inclined to beleive, so what is it? Is Gibbs a liar or do you think Ramsey had a shady half-time explosion? Let's let the rest of the team decide if Gibbs is a man of his word to the team, and not let the fans dictate whether he is or not. They're the ones who would know best, and let's see if any of them come out and say that Gibbs isn't a man of his word. Still, no proof of him being a liar. I'll wait all night if I have to.

[/quote]If this is the case, we will find out if this is the case via "anonymous reports" over the next few weeks

Still, no proof. But, giving you the benefit of the doubt, let's re-address this in a few weeks.

[/quote]EDIT: Honestly, does ANYONE think he gave Ramsey a legitimate chance at being the starter after proclaiming him so, both at the end of last season and this season

He got the reps in practice, he started the pre-season, and the opener. Gibbs didn't like what he saw, and replaced him. That's life!! Does that make Gibbs a liar? Antonio Brown was our kick returner the whole game, until he turned the ball over. Guess what, he wasn't out there for the next punt return. Just as in Ramseys case, Gibbs saw something that he didn't like, and he made a change. And actually, Ladell Betts had a pretty darn good return. No one player is guaranteed the starting job if he performs poorly. Does that make Gibbs a liar? Show me the evidence.

Truly, any coach would be questioned for this, and rightly so

Gibbs is already being questioned for this, and like you say, rightfully so. But, does that make him a liar? I think not. It makes him a head coach who felt that Ramsey wasn't peforming well enough to what he wanted from a QB. I don't know about you, but in my book, that's not being a liar, that's being a Head Coach of a Football Team.

JPFair · Post by **JPFair** » Mon Sep 12, 2005 11:00 pm

I want ramsey to be the one to lead us to the playoffs

I wanted Ramsey to be the one to lead us to the playoffs as well, does that make ME a liar? Hell, for that matter, I bet you Ramsey himself wanted to be the one to lead us to the playoffs, does that make HIM a liar?

Gibbs didn't say Ramsey will lead us to the playoffs, guranteed. He said he wanted Ramsey to be the one, and he gave him a shot at it. As it turns out, Ramsey didn't live up to his end of the bargain. To be the starter, you have to show that you deserve it. That decision is made by the head coach, not by the fans. Gibbs never lied to Ramsey.

air_hog · Post by **air_hog** » Mon Sep 12, 2005 11:03 pm

JPFair wrote:
What he is saying by "if" is it is a forgone conclusion that Brunell WILL PLAY POORLY.

Really? WOW!!! Are you saying that this guy can predict what's going to happen in the future? Can he tell me who's going to win the 5th at Suffolk Downs on Monday? Tell him to call me so he can give me the numbers for the Tri-State Powerball. I want in on this guys action!

No, he's just stating the obvious. I don't know if you remember, but we SUCKED at offense with none other than Brunell at the helm.

And if you go back and look at the stats from Brunell's games vs. Ramsey's game, we did a heck of a lot better with Ramsey. I mean we outscored the Vikings with Ramsey. With Brunell, we outscored the Bears by 2! The Bears. Newsflash, the Bears suck. And if Brunell can only lead this team to a 2 pt. victory over the Bears, then we'll be in trouble when we play the Chiefs.

1fan4ramsey · Post by **1fan4ramsey** » Mon Sep 12, 2005 11:07 pm

"As it turns out, Ramsey didn't live up to his end of the bargain. To be the starter, you have to show that you deserve it."

You can tell that by a whole quarter of play? One in which, I may add, that Ramsey had a td called back on a pass intereference play, and threw for more yards than Brunell in 3 quarters?? Confused

skinpride1 · Post by **skinpride1** » Mon Sep 12, 2005 11:13 pm

skinsfanno9 wrote:
JPFair wrote:Let me be perfectly clear on this, are you saying that Joe Gibbs is a liar? Has Joe Gibbs lied to someone?

Yeah, it certainly appears that way, doesn't it? Again, this is the first time I can ever remember Gibbs doing anything like this, so I'm almost inclined to believe a Ramsey explosion at half-time or something. Barring that, Gibbs clearly lied to Ramsey. He never intended to have Ramsey be the starter - certainly not this season, and probably not at the end of last season. Bottom line, he has no confidence in Ramsey and EVERY public action he has done as indicated this, from signing Brunell to signing Campbell.

Gibbs should have unloaded Ramsey in the offseason. We could have gotten more for it. As it stands now, unless something shady occured on Ramsey's part behind the scenes, Gibbs runs the risk of coming off looking like a liar to the team - someone who's word you cannot trust. If this is the case, we will find out if this is the case via "anonymous reports" over the next few weeks.

EDIT: Honestly, does ANYONE think he gave Ramsey a legitimate chance at being the starter after proclaiming him so, both at the end of last season and this season? Truly, any coach would be questioned for this, and rightly so.

The truth hurts doesn't it.

skinsfanno9 · Post by **skinsfanno9** » Mon Sep 12, 2005 11:15 pm

JPFair wrote:O.K. Well, then let's discuss the fact that you think Joe Gibbs is a liar. Lets do so by discussin each, and ever sentence you just posted, shall we?

NO, lets not. Frankly, I've gotten way to lost in your use of the quotes. Some of my items are quoted and some of yours are. Furthermore, your point that I need to prove this in a court of law through documented evidence is absurd. Its rather clear that Gibbs did NOT give Ramsey the chance he gave ANY of his previous QBs (yes, I am very familiar with his penchant for changing QBs and LOVE him as a coach - always have). Its also rather clear that all of his public comments have fully supported the fact that he named Ramsey as a starter. One quarter of play does not merit making the switch. And again, its rather clear (as I stated) that all of Gibbs' actions do not jive with his words.

tcwest10 · Post by **tcwest10** » Mon Sep 12, 2005 11:16 pm

The Hogster wrote:I think he just wants someone to manage the game better and The Ram hasn't shown him that. Let's be real about this. Gibbs has seen enough of Ramsey to know what he can do. He has seen him practice for two years, been through two offseasons, traning camps, preseasons, 7 games last year, and a lot of his game film.

There is something about him that Gibbs doesn't like, and it has nothing to do with his ability, it has to do with his mental approach to the game. He hasn't shown that he can minimize his mental errors. He threw 3 ints in one half against the Giants last year, 4 ints in preseason (in less than 1 game of play) and he started the year off with a pick on his second throw and fumbled twice in one quarter. (one was recovered by Jansen)

I think Gibbs wants to win now, and he thinks that Brunnell will do a better job at minimizing the turnovers.

Whether we agree or not, Lets support Mark Brunell. Maybe his injury, the predictability of our running game, and newnes to the offense contributed to his horrible play last season.

Its a new year. Maybe Brunnel can be the man...lets not give up lets hope that is the case. I support Brunnell.

Yeah. What he said. This isn't Spurrier we're talking about here. Aside from the mental errors, I have to believe that Patches (at full strength) isn't much better than just serviceable.
While I'm not sure Brunell is the answer, I really feel like Patrick definitely isn't. He had one really good pass in the game. Brunell came in cold.
After Dallas, I'll know where I stand on the southpaw.
'Course, I won't get to see the MNF game. I'm in New York.

JPFair · Post by **JPFair** » Mon Sep 12, 2005 11:17 pm

For those of you that think Joe Gibbs is a liar, you have incredibly bad ability to judge character. You might think he's a lousy coach, and you have every right to think so, but you know nothing about his character. You guys are probably the ones that grew up in the late 80's, maybe early 90's, barely remembering when they won a Super Bowl, but not remembering how they got there.

You know nothing about his character. NOTHING!!!

JPFair · Post by **JPFair** » Mon Sep 12, 2005 11:20 pm

NO, lets not. Frankly, I've gotten way to lost in your use of the quotes. Some of my items are quoted and some of yours are. Furthermore, your point that I need to prove this in a court of law through documented evidence is absurd. Its rather clear that Gibbs did NOT give Ramsey the chance he gave ANY of his previous QBs (yes, I am very familiar with his penchant for changing QBs and LOVE him as a coach - always have). Its also rather clear that all of his public comments have fully supported the fact that he named Ramsey as a starter. One quarter of play does not merit making the switch. And again, its rather clear (as I stated) that all of Gibbs' actions do not jive with his words.

Somehow, I had a feeling you woudn't want to. It's kind of hard to want to do something you know you have absolutely no hope of being able to do. But, that's allright, you spoke out of anger, not out of your heart. I never really thought for one second you'd be able to offer up a mature, logical, reasonable debate where you could justify your comment that Joe Gibbs is a liar. To think that he's a liar is laughable, to disagree with his head coaching style is your right. There's a difference between the two!

skinsfanno9 · Post by **skinsfanno9** » Mon Sep 12, 2005 11:20 pm

JPFair wrote:For those of you that think Joe Gibbs is a liar, you have incredibly bad ability to judge character. You might think he's a lousy coach, and you have every right to think so, but you know nothing about his character. You guys are probably the ones that grew up in the late 80's, maybe early 90's, barely remembering when they won a Super Bowl, but not remembering how they got there.

You know nothing about his character. NOTHING!!!

Gee, big leap there, ey?

tcwest10 · Post by **tcwest10** » Mon Sep 12, 2005 11:22 pm

Emotional reactions, JP. Plenty of old timers here to balance it all out. Nothing will change those bad feelings quicker than a good win at Dallas on Monday night.
Winning changes everything.

skinsfanno9 · Post by **skinsfanno9** » Mon Sep 12, 2005 11:23 pm

JPFair wrote:
NO, lets not. Frankly, I've gotten way to lost in your use of the quotes. Some of my items are quoted and some of yours are. Furthermore, your point that I need to prove this in a court of law through documented evidence is absurd. Its rather clear that Gibbs did NOT give Ramsey the chance he gave ANY of his previous QBs (yes, I am very familiar with his penchant for changing QBs and LOVE him as a coach - always have). Its also rather clear that all of his public comments have fully supported the fact that he named Ramsey as a starter. One quarter of play does not merit making the switch. And again, its rather clear (as I stated) that all of Gibbs' actions do not jive with his words.

Somehow, I had a feeling you woudn't want to. It's kind of hard to want to do something you know you have absolutely no hope of being able to do. But, that's allright, you spoke out of anger, not out of your heart. I never really thought for one second you'd be able to offer up a mature, logical, reasonable debate where you could justify your comment that Joe Gibbs is a liar. To think that he's a liar is laughable, to disagree with his head coaching style is your right. There's a difference between the two!

Feel free to act all pompous on your high horse if you like. Requiring me to go on detailed quote searching for your amusement is rather silly. Mature and logical is NOT how your post came across - nor is your assumption that any who say this are snot nosed 20 year olds or something. However, I do appreciate that you went back and corrected the quote issue - it was truly COMPLETELY unintelligible when you first posted it, as your comments and mine were randomly put either in quotes or not.

skinpride1 · Post by **skinpride1** » Mon Sep 12, 2005 11:23 pm

JPFair wrote:
I want ramsey to be the one to lead us to the playoffs

I wanted Ramsey to be the one to lead us to the playoffs as well, does that make ME a liar? Hell, for that matter, I bet you Ramsey himself wanted to be the one to lead us to the playoffs, does that make HIM a liar?

Gibbs didn't say Ramsey will lead us to the playoffs, guranteed. He said he wanted Ramsey to be the one, and he gave him a shot at it. As it turns out, Ramsey didn't live up to his end of the bargain. To be the starter, you have to show that you deserve it. That decision is made by the head coach, not by the fans. Gibbs never lied to Ramsey.

I could almost support that statement.The fact is ramsey didn't play a full half of one regular season game.Gibbs pulls the plug on him.Ramsey got hurt in the redzone and it wasn't like he wasn't moving the ball.I guess it doesn't matter now and it's not brunells fault and I will support him and the team.

JPFair · Post by **JPFair** » Mon Sep 12, 2005 11:31 pm

One in which, I may add, that Ramsey had a td called back on a pass intereference play, and threw for more yards than Brunell in 3 quarters?? Confused

I gotta say, you're light years ahead of the league itself. I didn't even realize that TD's being called back was a statistic that they've started keeping. I wonder who the all time leader in that category is.

Throwing for more yards than another QB on the same team, is also a new stat that I wasn't familiar with. Foolish me for thinking the only stat that really mattered as a fan was the one that put points on the board. I think you'ev been paying too much attention to your fantasy league instead of the league the Redskins are in. Or, do you have the forums mixed up?

SkinsLaVar · Post by **SkinsLaVar** » Mon Sep 12, 2005 11:33 pm

ramsey is too sensitive...he best play when he's ready

JPFair · Post by **JPFair** » Mon Sep 12, 2005 11:34 pm

YAWN!!!!!!! I'm getting tired. It's 11:30 here on the East Coast. Are you EVER going to come up with evidence that shows Gibbs is a liar, or should I just hit the sack and expect you to have your proof in the morning?

skinsfanno9 · Post by **skinsfanno9** » Mon Sep 12, 2005 11:35 pm

SkinsLaVar wrote:ramsey is too sensitive...he best play when he's ready

Truly, we need to unload the guy now. He is sensitive, and I'm afraid he's going to be poisen for the locker room now. But again, I'm guessing Gibbs is aware of this and will be unloading him soon.

For better or worse, Brunell is THE guy now, and Ramsey really isn't going to buy into the program now.

JPFair · Post by **JPFair** » Mon Sep 12, 2005 11:37 pm

Well, if Ramsey is that sensitive, maybe he should go join a flag football team or something. Maybe he should go home and cry to Mommy. Let him do whatever he wants, but if he's that sensitive, tell him to go talk to Mommy and see what she says. I want a guy that can handle adversity behind the center, not a "sensitive" guy who's going to start crying every time someone says something bad about him.

1niksder · Post by **1niksder** » Mon Sep 12, 2005 11:42 pm

Lets see if we can get to the bottom of this…

Ramsey wants to be traded because he is being demoted. He is being replaced by a more mobile, better decision making Mark Brunell who also happened to look better in the pre-season. Someone will say Patrick wasn’t given a fair shot at the job.

I would have to disagree ….
Ramsey lost out to Brunell last year in a open competition. Ramsey was a little gimpy but lost non the less. At some point he impressed the coaches and sub-planted Mark around mid-season and came into camp as the starter this off-season. Coming in the starter meant Ramsey didn’t have to look over his shoulder because he saw how Brunell was handled last year so there should have been no pressure to blow-up. The only thing Ramsey had to do was show Gibbs that he could command the offense, lead the team and hold on to the ball. Patrick never looked comfortable, showed limited leadership and we all know about the turnovers.

Last week there were 2 or 3 threads about Ramsey versus Brunell and I always came down on the side of Ramsey and never had a inkling to trash Brunell. Now I’ll support Brunell and continue to hope Ramsey gets better. That’s what Redskin fans do the support the QB regardless of his name or his back up. For the younger THNers this is a MUST with Joe Gibbs as the head coach. How do you think he won so many Super Bowls with so many QBs – He likes QBs.

As far as Gibbs being a liar I can’t really comment on that because I don’t know what this pertains to.
But…
Assuming (If I dare) that this is about Gibbs saying Ramsey would be the starter, then Nope can say he lied. Gibbs named P-Ram(Chris can I call him that now?) the starter late last season. After a sub-par off-season the position wasn’t opened for competition, and it remained his job up until the point Gibbs named Brunell the starter against that team in Texas. This is what coaches do, no position is save from the coaching staff (that’s why there is 53 on a roster). Some may think The QB spot is untouchable in that regard but we are talking Joe Gibbs and the Washington Redskins –There’s history there.

Steve Spurrier knew this, he took it to another level sometimes (he’d name 3 different starters between now and Friday). But no one called him a liar.

For anyone that doesn’t understand why Gibbs made this move, just go to skins site and check out what Gibbs had to say after each preseason game. Cut down on turnovers - Cut down on turnovers - Cut down on turnovers - Cut down on turnovers. Ramsey throws picks with regularity because of poor decisions and has a history of losing fumbles. Brunell can't make the deep throw (or should I say we haven'’ seen it) but doesn’t make stupid mistakes, he takes control of the team when he out there and he’s mobile. I guess Gibbs would rather have this instead of a immobile gunslinger

1fan4ramsey · Post by **1fan4ramsey** » Mon Sep 12, 2005 11:44 pm

JPFair wrote:YAWN!!!!!!! I'm getting tired. It's 11:30 here on the East Coast. Are you EVER going to come up with evidence that shows Gibbs is a liar, or should I just hit the sack and expect you to have your proof in the morning?

Gibbs isn't a liar, he actually told the truth last season in an interview for tv "the story on Mark Brunell isn't over yet in Washington". We were all HOPING he was lying!!

JPFair · Post by **JPFair** » Mon Sep 12, 2005 11:48 pm

Gibbs isn't a liar,

Finally!! Now, I'm off to bed!!