The-Hogs.net - Washington Football Discussion, Redskins to Commanders Era

markshark84 wrote:But, IMHO, replacing Gruden because you don't think he is "great" --- when he's CLEARLY working with "NFL mediocre" at best --- is unfair. You have to remember what Gruden inherited.

I disagree.

DeSean is not mediocre and is the best deep threat in the league.
Garcon is not mediocre.
Jordan Reed is not mediocre, arguably a top 3 TE in the league right now. Prolly top 5.
Alfred Morris was a top 5 RB before Gruden came along.
Darrel Young a Pro Bowl FB before Gruden came along.
Crowder is not mediocre.
Trent Williams probowl LT.


How can you say this is mediocre when Gruden REFUSES to field the best 11 players? He'd rather stick to his "scheme" than player his best people. Our ProBowl FB is stuck on special teams. I simply believe that a better coach, with a better offensive scheme would make more of this offensive talent. It isn't that I simply dont think Gruden is great. He isn't great and he hasn't really done anything THAT great in the entirety of his NFL career. He was an above average OC... Terrific.

We've watched New England play every offensive linemen out of position for the duration of the year. Yet, their coaches adapt their offensive philosophy to each individual game. Gruden has shown an inability or an unwillingness to do so. And it's cost us wins.

Our DC has done more with lesser known players than Gruden has.

Chris Luva Luva wrote:

markshark84 wrote:But, IMHO, replacing Gruden because you don't think he is "great" --- when he's CLEARLY working with "NFL mediocre" at best --- is unfair. You have to remember what Gruden inherited.

I disagree.

DeSean is not mediocre and is the best deep threat in the league.
Garcon is not mediocre.
Jordan Reed is not mediocre, arguably a top 3 TE in the league right now. Prolly top 5.
Alfred Morris was a top 5 RB before Gruden came along.
Darrel Young a Pro Bowl FB before Gruden came along.
Crowder is not mediocre.
Trent Williams probowl LT.


How can you say this is mediocre when Gruden REFUSES to field the best 11 players? He'd rather stick to his "scheme" than player his best people. Our ProBowl FB is stuck on special teams. I simply believe that a better coach, with a better offensive scheme would make more of this offensive talent. It isn't that I simply dont think Gruden is great. He isn't great and he hasn't really done anything THAT great in the entirety of his NFL career. He was an above average OC... Terrific.

We've watched New England play every offensive linemen out of position for the duration of the year. Yet, their coaches adapt their offensive philosophy to each individual game. Gruden has shown an inability or an unwillingness to do so. And it's cost us wins.

Our DC has done more with lesser known players than Gruden has.

I agree the offense talent wise at the skill positions are probably top 10 in the NFL. Shawn Springs said DJax would have 30 touchdowns if he was on the Patriots (he was exaggerating of course). Oline is probably somewhere from 20-32, however. Only thing slowing us down is coaching and quarterback to be honest. Defense has played well enough for us to be 8-5 to me.

StorminMormon86 wrote:

SkinsJock wrote:I'd like to see Gruden gone

Why?

Seriously, what has he done to warrant you wanting him gone?

He didn't get along with RG3. End of story.

Chris Luva Luva wrote:Alfred Morris was a top 5 RB before Gruden came along.

Olandis Gary. Reuben Droughns. Tatum Bell.

There's a long list of RBs in the same situation as Alf after leaving the Mike Shanahan scheme.

riggofan wrote:

Chris Luva Luva wrote:Alfred Morris was a top 5 RB before Gruden came along.

Olandis Gary. Reuben Droughns. Tatum Bell.

There's a long list of RBs in the same situation as Alf after leaving the Mike Shanahan scheme.

I removed Alfred for the sake of discussion. What about the rest of these so-called mediocre players?

DeSean is not mediocre and is the best deep threat in the league.
Garcon is not mediocre.
Jordan Reed is not mediocre, arguably a top 3 TE in the league right now. Prolly top 5.
Darrel Young a Pro Bowl FB before Gruden came along.
Crowder is not mediocre.
Trent Williams probowl LT.

StorminMormon86 wrote:

SkinsJock wrote:I'd like to see Gruden gone

Why? Seriously, what has he done to warrant you wanting him gone?

Simple really - I don't "want him gone" per se - I just think that Scot will replace him with somebody that he thinks can be a better HC

Who is responsible for the lack of scoring after a turnover?

riggofan wrote:

Chris Luva Luva wrote:Alfred Morris was a top 5 RB before Gruden came along.

Olandis Gary. Reuben Droughns. Tatum Bell.

There's a long list of RBs in the same situation as Alf after leaving the Mike Shanahan scheme.

Only difference and a BIG difference is Alfred Morris has done it multiple years. (look up since 2012 who has the most rushing yards) I guarantee you Alfred in the top 3. Not to mention Shanahan had a good Denver oline that utilizing the NOW illegal chop blocking. Alfred Morris never had the pleasure of that Alex Gibbs form of blocking.

Chris Luva Luva wrote:

riggofan wrote:

Chris Luva Luva wrote:Alfred Morris was a top 5 RB before Gruden came along.

Olandis Gary. Reuben Droughns. Tatum Bell.

There's a long list of RBs in the same situation as Alf after leaving the Mike Shanahan scheme.

I removed Alfred for the sake of discussion. What about the rest of these so-called mediocre players?

DeSean is not mediocre and is the best deep threat in the league.
Garcon is not mediocre.
Jordan Reed is not mediocre, arguably a top 3 TE in the league right now. Prolly top 5.
Darrel Young a Pro Bowl FB before Gruden came along.
Crowder is not mediocre.
Trent Williams probowl LT.

I just don't see what your point is exactly. DeSean is a great deep threat, but he's not a true #1. He's not Dez Bryant. He's not ODell Beckham, Larry Fitzgerald, AJ Green, Julio Jones or Alshon Jeffrey and he missed half the season. Garcon is a good 2. Jordan Reed looks like elite talent. Cousins has been pretty good this year, but he hasn't even played a full year as a starter. The offensive line is young and a work in progress. And the injuries to the TEs have been a major issue.

Crowder? Come on, man.

Talent wise I think we look good not great. You seem to be arguing that we're stocked with elite talent that Gruden isn't taking advantage of? We're ranked somewhere around 17-24 on offense depending on what stat you pick. Green Bay is like 8-12 with supposedly the best QB in the league under center. So I don't really get your complaint.

They've been OK in my opinion and 1000x better than the disaster we saw last year. I'd hope in the off season they address the center position and maybe another WR. I don't know if they really need to do anything more at TE or if getting Niles Paul and Logan Paulsen back will be enough.

mastdark81 wrote:Only difference and a BIG difference is Alfred Morris has done it multiple years. (look up since 2012 who has the most rushing yards) I guarantee you Alfred in the top 3. Not to mention Shanahan had a good Denver oline that utilizing the NOW illegal chop blocking. Alfred Morris never had the pleasure of that Alex Gibbs form of blocking.

Yeah I'm with you man. I honestly don't get what's up with Morris, that's just been my latest theory. It does seem like the running game went downhill when Laovao and Lichtensteiger went out. Not sure about Long, but I don't think there's any question that LeRib hasn't been a great replacement at center.

The TE injuries have been an issue too. Every time they bring in Compton as a TE, teams KNOW they're going to run not throw. Not making it any easier on the RBs.

I'm a big Morris fan, so I hope its got more to do with the o-line than with him.

riggofan wrote:... You seem to be arguing that we're stocked with elite talent that Gruden isn't taking advantage of? We're ranked somewhere around 17-24 on offense depending on what stat you pick. Green Bay is like 8-12 with supposedly the best QB in the league under center. So I don't really get your complaint. ...

C'mon man - Chris was not implying that we have elite talent and GB's QB is one of the top QBs but is certainly not as good as Brady ...

you don't have to exaggerate, to make your point - it just looks so childish

SkinsJock wrote:you don't have to exaggerate, to make your point - it just looks so childish

Irony: a state of affairs or an event that seems deliberately contrary to what one expects and is often amusing as a result.

Chris Luva Luva wrote:DeSean is not mediocre and is the best deep threat in the league.
Garcon is not mediocre.
Jordan Reed is not mediocre, arguably a top 3 TE in the league right now. Prolly top 5.
Alfred Morris was a top 5 RB before Gruden came along.
Darrel Young a Pro Bowl FB before Gruden came along.
Crowder is not mediocre.
Trent Williams probowl LT.

How can you say this is mediocre when Gruden REFUSES to field the best 11 players? He'd rather stick to his "scheme" than player his best people. Our ProBowl FB is stuck on special teams. I simply believe that a better coach, with a better offensive scheme would make more of this offensive talent. It isn't that I simply dont think Gruden is great. He isn't great and he hasn't really done anything THAT great in the entirety of his NFL career. He was an above average OC... Terrific.

We've watched New England play every offensive linemen out of position for the duration of the year. Yet, their coaches adapt their offensive philosophy to each individual game. Gruden has shown an inability or an unwillingness to do so. And it's cost us wins.

Our DC has done more with lesser known players than Gruden has.

A couple things:

1. Direct answer to the player comparisons:
- Jackson is good, but has only played 6 games this year with a hamstring injury. He also basically lost us the DAL game (having nothing to do with coaching), so there's that.....
- Garcon is playing mediocre right now and on the downswing. A good example is his YAC stats:
2015: 153 YAC on 59 receptions (121st in the NFL)
2014: 293 on 68 (56th)
2013: 667 on 113 (3rd)
2012: 325 on 44 (40th but only played 9 games).
He is average. Not more, not less.
- Agree on Reed.
- Morris was a stud and I love him, but for some reason he isn't playing well. I agree that playcalling is MUCH of the reason but I am starting to believe there is something else; it may be the fact he is 27 and he has had huge carry numbers since he was 18 years old. I also wonder if he is playing hurt and we don't know it.
- Young is great but not a player that will make a huge impact. He's good for his position. For example, yesterday most good players would have scored on the play he was tackled on at the 1. It wasn't a good pass, but he moved in the wrong way and it slowed him down. He also got tackled by a CB, which a 250 pound FB should be able to push 1 or 2 yards against. He's good for the position, but not a player that you "focus" on getting looks. As far as being a pro-bowler --- having a probowl FB is like have a probowl long snapper.
- Crowder has proven to be a good WR. So I agree to an extent. He still has things to improve on.
- Williams is a stud and we try to run thru him the majority of the time. What does that get us? 1 single OL doesn't make even a mediocre OL -- which we don't have.

To me, this doesn't exactly make a convincing argument that we have above average offensive talent..... That said, I absolutely agree we have talent, no question. However, do we have enough where we should be demanding playoff teams or our HC is fired? I don't think so --- especially considering the fact Gruden was the one that made the Cousins decision, in effect putting us in the position we are currently sitting in.

2. And please, lets not compare this squad as it relates to utilizing talent to NE. Gruden is no Belicheck and never will be. We can all agree on that.

3. So you like our DC? Do you think he'll stay here if we fire Gruden? The same goes for Callahan, Cavanaugh, etc.

4. Final Caveat: I'm not a huge Gruden fan. I think we have progressed in the right direction with him and should allow him to continue as long as he continues to make the proper personnel upgrades and progression continues year over year. When that stops, you have to make a decision at that time, but not before it. He is still a horrible playcaller.

markshark84 wrote:4. Final Caveat: I'm not a huge Gruden fan. I think we have progressed in the right direction with him and should allow him to continue as long as he continues to make the proper personnel upgrades and progression continues year over year. When that stops, you have to make a decision at that time, but not before it. He is still a horrible playcaller.

I'm clearly also not a Gruden fan, but I do think he's here next year and it's only fair to give him 3 years. But there are some significant flaws I've seen that make me question whether he is even a mediocre head coach. His forte, offense, is far too predictable and conservative. His teams fail to adjust at halftime and anticipate what other teams do. And his teams routinely cannot close out a game they're leading. There is no way that should have been a game after half time yesterday.

PulpExposure wrote:

markshark84 wrote:4. Final Caveat: I'm not a huge Gruden fan. I think we have progressed in the right direction with him and should allow him to continue as long as he continues to make the proper personnel upgrades and progression continues year over year. When that stops, you have to make a decision at that time, but not before it. He is still a horrible playcaller.

I'm clearly also not a Gruden fan, but I do think he's here next year and it's only fair to give him 3 years. But there are some significant flaws I've seen that make me question whether he is even a mediocre head coach. His forte, offense, is far too predictable and conservative. His teams fail to adjust at halftime and anticipate what other teams do. And his teams routinely cannot close out a game they're leading. There is no way that should have been a game after half time yesterday.

I agree. I find that I'm in a bad position defending Gruden, when I really don't think he's that great --- I just think it is bad policy to blow everything up when we are seeing clear year over year improvement. I just don't understand why you'd do that.

Gruden is a first time coach who inherited a bottom 3 in the NFL roster talentwise. There has been improvement in every year he's been here. So firing him at this point just doesn't make sense to me. We are improving, why mess with that until it ends.

People are making excuses for Gruden - it seems like a lot of the time he's trying not to lose and then when that seems apparent he "opens up" the offense and gets more aggressive - look at what happened when we got down by 24

If Scot has someone else in mind, he'll make the change, because, quite simply, IMO Jay Gruden has not shown that he's that good a HC

SkinsJock wrote:

riggofan wrote:... You seem to be arguing that we're stocked with elite talent that Gruden isn't taking advantage of? We're ranked somewhere around 17-24 on offense depending on what stat you pick. Green Bay is like 8-12 with supposedly the best QB in the league under center. So I don't really get your complaint. ...

C'mon man - Chris was not implying that we have elite talent and GB's QB is one of the top QBs but is certainly not as good as Brady ...

you don't have to exaggerate, to make your point - it just looks so childish

I'm not making a point, I'm just asking Chris to explain his point regarding those players and his expectations. If we have elite players on offense, then I'd expect to be top 12 or something. I just personally don't think we have that talent level yet.

And I don't know what the hell you're talking about regarding Brady and Rodgers. "Certainly not as a good as Brady?" What kind of crack are you smoking this week? Aaron Rodgers has been widely considered the best quarterback in the league for the past two years at least.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap300000 ... nkings-132

The Big Two

1. Aaron Rodgers (1)
2. Tom Brady (4)

Ben Roethlisberger actually has the best average grade in my harebrained grading system, but he won't be back on the field until midseason. That leaves Rodgers and Brady to duke it out for best quarterback honors, not to mention MVP. Chris Wesseling tabbed Rodgers as his quarter season All-Pro starter and I can't disagree. Last Sunday's performance against San Francisco might have been his least remarkable outing of the year, and it included all these throws:

markshark84 wrote:I agree. I find that I'm in a bad position defending Gruden, when I really don't think he's that great --- I just think it is bad policy to blow everything up when we are seeing clear year over year improvement. I just don't understand why you'd do that.

Gruden is a first time coach who inherited a bottom 3 in the NFL roster talentwise. There has been improvement in every year he's been here. So firing him at this point just doesn't make sense to me. We are improving, why mess with that until it ends.

This exactly. There really isn't anything to "defend" or make excuses for with Gruden. He's not even two years into his tenure yet.

You know what Jay Gruden has accomplished? He's won more games than the previous year two years in a row now. That's called "improvement".

riggofan wrote:I'm not making a point, I'm just asking Chris to explain his point regarding those players and his expectations. If we have elite players on offense, then I'd expect to be top 12 or something. I just personally don't think we have that talent level yet.

The QB and the degree to which he is autonomous can really let the players around you shine and excel.

2012 RGIII is a good example. Essentially the same team/offense as 2011, but what as the difference? QB play. It's my opinion that Cousins is good enough and should be getting more out of the squad that surrounds him.

However, due to Grudens inability and/or stubbornness to adapt we aren't doing that. And Garcon is far from being mediocre, he's just not used. If he went to a better team, he'd be lights out. He still hits and runs like a truck. This team is laden with above average talent on offense, it's not being used right. Hell, they aren't even fielding Darrel Young, how is that excusable?

Chris Luva Luva wrote:However, due to Grudens inability and/or stubbornness to adapt we aren't doing that. And Garcon is far from being mediocre, he's just not used. If he went to a better team, he'd be lights out. He still hits and runs like a truck.

Not sure they aren't trying to utilize Garcon. Garcon is second on the team in targets (90) by only two behind Reed (92). Garcon and Reed each have approx. 25 more targets than the third highest player (Crowder).

Garcon is 31st in the league in targets at 90. Meanwhile, Garcon's YAC (121st) and total yards (51st) are closer on par with players that are hovering in the 60-70 targets range (when averaged). Gruden/the OC is/are giving him opportunities ----- Garcon is not taking advantage of them.

Personally, I don't care if he runs and hits like a truck if he can't catch, run for yards, and make plays. And Garcon is a very good WR, but he's having a mediocre season.

I don't think it's fair to judge Gruden on anything other than this season going forward...this is his first season as a head coach with a real, seemingly competent general manager.

Chris Luva Luva wrote:

riggofan wrote:I'm not making a point, I'm just asking Chris to explain his point regarding those players and his expectations. If we have elite players on offense, then I'd expect to be top 12 or something. I just personally don't think we have that talent level yet.

The QB and the degree to which he is autonomous can really let the players around you shine and excel.

2012 RGIII is a good example. Essentially the same team/offense as 2011, but what as the difference? QB play. It's my opinion that Cousins is good enough and should be getting more out of the squad that surrounds him.

However, due to Grudens inability and/or stubbornness to adapt we aren't doing that. And Garcon is far from being mediocre, he's just not used. If he went to a better team, he'd be lights out. He still hits and runs like a truck. This team is laden with above average talent on offense, it's not being used right. Hell, they aren't even fielding Darrel Young, how is that excusable?

I thought DY almost had a touchdown yesterday? Sounds like he was on the field.

I heard Cousins on 106.7 the other day admit that every time he threw the ball he had been thinking, "Is this the INT that costs me my job?" I agree that Cousins can be better and that might be part of the issue.

Anyway, I don't really have any idea if the talent on offense is being used right or not. I do know the running game started out looking really good early this year up until we lost the center and left guard. Gruden has been coaching offense for quite a while, so I'm going to choose to believe that he has a better idea of what he's doing than any of us clowns on the internet.

My concern with Gruden going into this year - and even now - was would he have what it takes to handle the job of HEAD COACH. Not his offensive play calling. We'll see.

StorminMormon86 wrote:I don't think it's fair to judge Gruden on anything other than this season going forward...this is his first season as a head coach with a real, seemingly competent general manager.

I actually think fans should look a year one. He's been so much better this year than in 2014. I'm sure McCloughan has been a part of that. Not having to deal with the RG3 mess this season hasn't hurt either.

We were a complete joke in 2014. We look like a PROFESSIONAL FOOTBALL TEAM this year. Give the man some fing credit.

Gruden has been better but CLL's right - we should be seeing more from this offense

I'm fine with Gruden staying if Scot does not have someone he really wants here ...

otherwise, let's get someone in here that can take better advantage of what Cousins and this offense can do

and

if Cousins is not here we'll need a better HC anyway

plus

that will mean some 'fans' here might not be around either ... not that that's a bad thing, mind you

markshark84 wrote:

PulpExposure wrote:

markshark84 wrote:4. Final Caveat: I'm not a huge Gruden fan. I think we have progressed in the right direction with him and should allow him to continue as long as he continues to make the proper personnel upgrades and progression continues year over year. When that stops, you have to make a decision at that time, but not before it. He is still a horrible playcaller.

I'm clearly also not a Gruden fan, but I do think he's here next year and it's only fair to give him 3 years. But there are some significant flaws I've seen that make me question whether he is even a mediocre head coach. His forte, offense, is far too predictable and conservative. His teams fail to adjust at halftime and anticipate what other teams do. And his teams routinely cannot close out a game they're leading. There is no way that should have been a game after half time yesterday.

I agree. I find that I'm in a bad position defending Gruden, when I really don't think he's that great --- I just think it is bad policy to blow everything up when we are seeing clear year over year improvement. I just don't understand why you'd do that.

Gruden is a first time coach who inherited a bottom 3 in the NFL roster talentwise. There has been improvement in every year he's been here. So firing him at this point just doesn't make sense to me. We are improving, why mess with that until it ends.

+1