The-Hogs.net - Washington Football Discussion, Redskins to Commanders Era

Skinsfan55 wrote:

StorminMormon86 wrote:The Redskins have NEVER drafted a franchise quarterback.

That's not true!!

They drafted one of the best QB's ever to play the game, Sammy Baugh. 74 years ago.

Not true. There was no draft then. SB signed as a FA.

StorminMormon86 wrote:Wasn't 2007 also a "strong year" for quarterbacks to be drafted?

-JaMarcus Russell
-Brady Quinn
-Kevin Kolb
-Trent Edwards

Drafting a QB will not solve this team's woes, and I think it's a wasted pick to get a QB for our #1. I don't think it's necessarily a bad idea to go with one in round 2 or 3. Even if we did pick a QB for our #1 pick, this does not guarantee he'll be our "future". We all know how Campbell worked out.

That was not a strong QB draft class. Not even close. I recall thinking that it was one of the weakest QB drafts in many years.

StorminMormon86 wrote:

CanesSkins26 wrote:Um, no. Russell was a huge gamble and is not comparable to Ryan Luck in any way. Quinn dropped hard during the draft, Kolb was second rounder, and Trent Edwards was a 3rd rounder. That's a strong draft class in your opinion??

Luck, Barkley, and Jones are all going in the first round, with all three possibly going in the top 10. Sure you never know how a player will turn out, but most analysts agree that those three players have very strong upsides and all are highly regarded.

People were describing the 2007 draft as a strong quarterback draft because of those players I listed, regardless of what round they were picked in. I don't think their strong at all personally. Tebow was highly regarded and has yet to do anything other than prove he should be on the sidelines until there's a wildcat formation play called. I must admit that I don't watch college ball at all, so I know nothing about the upcoming draft class. I just don't believe we should be clamoring for a 1st round QB just yet until the season is done and over.

Tebow was only highly regarded by Florida Gator fans. 99% percent of analysts said that he wouldn't be successful as an NFL qb. If I remember correctly Kiper said he was better off as TE or FB. That's a poor example to use because he has been almost universally panned for his poor mechanics, trouble reading defenses, the offense he played in for the Gators, etc.

StorminMormon86 wrote:Wasn't 2007 also a "strong year" for quarterbacks to be drafted?

-JaMarcus Russell
-Brady Quinn
-Kevin Kolb
-Trent Edwards

Drafting a QB will not solve this team's woes, and I think it's a wasted pick to get a QB for our #1. I don't think it's necessarily a bad idea to go with one in round 2 or 3. Even if we did pick a QB for our #1 pick, this does not guarantee he'll be our "future". We all know how Campbell worked out.

Um, OK. But then where is our QB going to come from? You mention Campbell, but the FA market has been much more cruel to us: Beck, Grossman, McNabb, Brunell, Matthews, Weurffel, Banks, George, and Johnson. That's over 10 years with only 1-2 solid QBs, neither of which turned out to be a franchise player.

Give me an honest effort at drafting a QB in the first round any day over the odds that a FA QB will come out of nowhere and be the leader on this team. Look at the top 15 QBs in the league every year, and I guarantee you that the majority of them were drafted by the team they play on, every time.

beck look good this week but the bills cause turnovers hopefully beck wont force what isnt there
i will not say he is bad nor good give him a chance to prove himself

Irn-Bru wrote:Um, OK. But then where is our QB going to come from? You mention Campbell, but the FA market has been much more cruel to us: Beck, Grossman, McNabb, Brunell, Matthews, Weurffel, Banks, George, and Johnson. That's over 10 years with only 1-2 solid QBs, neither of which turned out to be a franchise player.

Give me an honest effort at drafting a QB in the first round any day over the odds that a FA QB will come out of nowhere and be the leader on this team. Look at the top 15 QBs in the league every year, and I guarantee you that the majority of them were drafted by the team they play on, every time.

Here's my BIGGEST problem/fear in drafting a QB: Daniel Snyder. What guarantee is it that the Shanahan's will be around to help develop this "stud" we're supposed to develop? Campbell fell under the same carousel of coaches and staffs and we all know what happened there. Our only Superbowl victories were with FA QB's. And in the past ten years we've been to the playoffs twice, which is horrible, but both of those trips were with FA QBs. My fear is if we do get a QB, he'll have limited or no playtime under the Shanahan's before they're replaced by another "rebuilding" regime. And those top 15 QBs in the league who were drafted by their respected team were each given time to develop with the same team and coaches for years. We've never had that. I don't think Snyder knows the definition of the word stability. Which is why I don't think a QB should be our number one priority just yet.

StorminMormon86 wrote:Tebow was highly regarded

No he wasn't. Everyone was shocked he was taken in the first round and he wasn't projected my many to even be a QB in the NFL. Whatever point you're trying to get at, revisionism's not a strong argument for anything.

StorminMormon86 wrote:Here's my BIGGEST problem/fear in drafting a QB: Daniel Snyder. What guarantee is it that the Shanahan's will be around to help develop this "stud" we're supposed to develop?

What a stupid post. You could apply this to anything. I'd like to go to a 3-4 but we're stupid and we'll screw it up. I'd like to sign a shut down corner but we're stupid and we'll screw it up. I'd like to upgrade our receiving corps but we're stupid and we'll screw it up. Gotcha, let's sit and do nothing. No wait, we're stupid and we'd screw it up...

KazooSkinsFan wrote:What a stupid post. You could apply this to anything. I'd like to go to a 3-4 but we're stupid and we'll screw it up. I'd like to sign a shut down corner but we're stupid and we'll screw it up. I'd like to upgrade our receiving corps but we're stupid and we'll screw it up. Gotcha, let's sit and do nothing. No wait, we're stupid and we'd screw it up...

Did you read what I said? I said Snyder is known for juggling coaches year in and year out, thereby not giving Shanahan the proper time to groom a potential first round quarterback if he were to change coaches yet again. Something similar that happened with Campbell. That's what I'm afraid of.

You're right about Tebow though, he wasn't highly regarded at all before he was drafted. Jon Gruden on Tebow: "Tim Tebow is 250 pounds, and he's the strongest human being that's ever played the position. He can throw well enough at any level." Dungy said he would take him over any other QB in the draft that year. I also seem to recall ESPN repeatedly saying something about Josh McDaniel's legacy being nothing but picking Tim Tebow.

StorminMormon86 wrote:

KazooSkinsFan wrote:What a stupid post. You could apply this to anything. I'd like to go to a 3-4 but we're stupid and we'll screw it up. I'd like to sign a shut down corner but we're stupid and we'll screw it up. I'd like to upgrade our receiving corps but we're stupid and we'll screw it up. Gotcha, let's sit and do nothing. No wait, we're stupid and we'd screw it up...

Did you read what I said? I said Snyder is known for juggling coaches year in and year out, thereby not giving Shanahan the proper time to groom a potential first round quarterback if he were to change coaches yet again. Something similar that happened with Campbell. That's what I'm afraid of.

You're right about Tebow though, he wasn't highly regarded at all before he was drafted. Jon Gruden on Tebow: "Tim Tebow is 250 pounds, and he's the strongest human being that's ever played the position. He can throw well enough at any level." Dungy said he would take him over any other QB in the draft that year. I also seem to recall ESPN repeatedly saying something about Josh McDaniel's legacy being nothing but picking Tim Tebow.

Right, but the same argument, as Kazoo pointed out, could be made about switching to the 3-4, which also takes time to implement and also requires acquiring players that fit the system. Under your theory we shouldn't do anything that requires multiple years to implement/develop, which isn't realistic.

That isn't my theory at all. It's a FEAR I have of something similar happening with Shanahan that happened with Gibbs. Not saying it's etched in stone or I think it's definitely going to happen.

StorminMormon86 wrote:That isn't my theory at all. It's a FEAR I have of something similar happening with Shanahan that happened with Gibbs. Not saying it's etched in stone or I think it's definitely going to happen.

Ok, but then how do you expect the team to progress?

StorminMormon86 wrote:

Irn-Bru wrote:Um, OK. But then where is our QB going to come from? You mention Campbell, but the FA market has been much more cruel to us: Beck, Grossman, McNabb, Brunell, Matthews, Weurffel, Banks, George, and Johnson. That's over 10 years with only 1-2 solid QBs, neither of which turned out to be a franchise player.

Give me an honest effort at drafting a QB in the first round any day over the odds that a FA QB will come out of nowhere and be the leader on this team. Look at the top 15 QBs in the league every year, and I guarantee you that the majority of them were drafted by the team they play on, every time.

Here's my BIGGEST problem/fear in drafting a QB: Daniel Snyder. What guarantee is it that the Shanahan's will be around to help develop this "stud" we're supposed to develop? Campbell fell under the same carousel of coaches and staffs and we all know what happened there.

I don't think Campbell failed because he had different coaches. People way overstate the role that played in his failure here. A competent QB would not have struggled as much as Campbell did, for as long as he did, or without showing better signs of progress. Doesn't matter if the system calls it a Blue 47 or Red 42.

If our biggest problem with drafting a QB is Dan Snyder, then I don't think we have any hope with a FA QB either. So I'd rather roll the dice on a draft pick and Shanahan having time to develop the man he picks.

I can understand your caution here, but it's a debilitating stance to take. You keep using the word "guarantee." There are no guarantees in the NFL. That doesn't mean you sit by and do nothing in the meantime, however.

Our only Superbowl victories were with FA QB's.

In a very, very different NFL.

Irn-Bru wrote:I don't think Campbell failed because he had different coaches. People way overstate the role that played in his failure here. A competent QB would not have struggled as much as Campbell did, for as long as he did, or without showing better signs of progress. Doesn't matter if the system calls it a Blue 47 or Red 42.

This is an incredible oversimplification. You think the only differences in offensive schemes in the NFL is the terminology? Sure, the object is the same, to lead the team to victories, but different offensive schemes, locker room cultures and coaches can create a monumental differences in regards to how that goal is achieved.

Campbell came in under Gibbs, the offensive scheme shifted with Saunders, Zorn changed the offense... he never had a good culture in Washington, pieces in place to help him out, or a consistent approach to offense. He's the posterboy for taking a talented player and messing with them.

I am 100% confident that he would have performed better on a different team. Say, if in 2005, the Green Bay Packers had drafted Campbell and we'd drafted Rogers. I fully believe that Campbell would have been much better served as a player, and Rogers would have struggled. Packers were a good situation, Redskins weren't. If Tom Brady gets picked up by some other team in the 6th round, we never hear about him again, good situation with a good culture and consistent offensive scheme, he's a Hall of Famer, if Matt Stafford goes elsewhere to a bad situation instead of to a new and improved Lions team with all the pieces he needs in place, he's probably a flop instead of a rising star.

Jason Campbell was hand picked by Joe Gibbs but Gibbs never had the time to mold him. Zorn actually got the most value out of him, but still. Peyton Manning would not have been successful under those conditions.

CanesSkins26 wrote:Ok, but then how do you expect the team to progress?

The team is going to progress as long as Snyder keeps his nose out of the so called Shanaplan. Plain and simple.

Skinsfan55 wrote:I am 100% confident that he would have performed better on a different team

If he'd had consistency in coaching, he wouldn't have kept drilling the ball into ground at the feet of open receivers, gotcha...

KazooSkinsFan wrote:

Skinsfan55 wrote:I am 100% confident that he would have performed better on a different team

If he'd had consistency in coaching, he wouldn't have kept drilling the ball into ground at the feet of open receivers, gotcha...

Yes, you are correct. Consistency in coaching, and a winning culture instill confidence. If a QB knows they are on a good team, and they know teammates have their back they can take an extra 1/2 second to get the throw off. Additionally, a good coach, who builds consistent trust with a player can correct minor mechanical flaws that cause balls to be under thrown.

Excellent example. Thanks.

Skinsfan55 wrote:

KazooSkinsFan wrote:

Skinsfan55 wrote:I am 100% confident that he would have performed better on a different team

If he'd had consistency in coaching, he wouldn't have kept drilling the ball into ground at the feet of open receivers, gotcha...

Yes, you are correct. Consistency in coaching, and a winning culture instill confidence. If a QB knows they are on a good team, and they know teammates have their back they can take an extra 1/2 second to get the throw off. Additionally, a good coach, who builds consistent trust with a player can correct minor mechanical flaws that cause balls to be under thrown.

Excellent example. Thanks.

Nice story, but it's ridiculous. He got NFL coaching and sucked, that's on him. Then again I strongly believe in personal accountability. Anyone who fails because of someone else is a loser. So JC is still a loser even if you were right.

Nope, you're totally off base.

When you get a quarterback you have to cultivate their talent, not pluck someone from college and expect them to sink or swim. That's beyond ridiculous.

Look at Joe Theismann as a terrific example.

We had Joey T for 7 seasons before Gibbs took over. The support system wasn't there for him, he didn't mesh with the veterans, he didn't play a lot...

Joe Gibbs wanted to dump him when he took over. He thought better of it and designed a system to support Theismann.

So was Joe Theismann a failure because he had 9 uneventful years in Washington with no support? Or is he a winner because Joe Gibbs propped him up?

See, these things don't happen in a vacuum. It shows a serious lack of critical thinking to have such a black and white view on player success. What you're saying is:

Player A is a success! They're a winner and that's all on them!

Player B is a failure! They're a loser and that's all on them!

Things just don't work that way. Football is the ultimate team sport, and we're not just talking about the players on the field. A support system, a winning culture, consistent coaching... Don't you think those actually have an effect on whether a player is successful or unsuccessful?

I submit that if Jason Campbell went to a team with the three of those things, he's a pro-bowl player.

Skinsfan55 wrote:What you're saying is:

Player A is a success! They're a winner and that's all on them!

Player B is a failure! They're a loser and that's all on them!

Things just don't work that way

Actually they do. I'm in command of my environment, you're a victim of yours.

I did get a kick out of you using Theisman who was a success to try to say I was wrong about JC being a failure...

KazooSkinsFan wrote:Actually they do. I'm in command of my environment, you're a victim of yours.

Yeah sure. Any success you've ever had in life is due purely to your own effort. So you didn't have good parenting, caring teachers, positive work environments, good relationships and networking with co-workers and bosses? By saying your in command of your own environment you're insulting anyone who ever took an interest in your development as a person. Think about that. I'm not a victim of my environment, I'm just smart enough to understand that I didn't make it on my own. My family supported me, I had teachers that cared about my success, and positive work environments. There's not a bit of shame in realizing that your successes in life were aided by a support system nor is there shame in realizing your missed opportunities.

In life, it's never too late to overcome them. In sports, since your career is based on a very specific, and short window of an athlete's peak physical talents missed opportunities are critical. If you spend a year, two years, three years learning something that you won't use later and then have to spend time learning and re-learning new information you're wasting productive time when you're at your physical peak.

KazooSkinsFan wrote:I did get a kick out of you using Theisman who was a success to try to say I was wrong about JC being a failure...

I guess it was asking a lot for you to understand that Joe Theismann was a failure in Washington UNTIL someone actually came in and provided him a consistent coaching model, a positive clubhouse culture and a support system. You know... all the things Jason Campbell (and Patrick Ramsey for that matter) lacked as Redskins. Theismann was not a success in a vacuum. Sure, he had to work damn hard, even under Allen he was running back punts just to get into the game but there was only so much he could do on his own. With proper instruction, a winning atmosphere and a support system in place he became a Pro Bowl QB and a leader of two Super Bowl teams.

CanesSkins26 wrote:

StorminMormon86 wrote:That isn't my theory at all. It's a FEAR I have of something similar happening with Shanahan that happened with Gibbs. Not saying it's etched in stone or I think it's definitely going to happen.

Ok, but then how do you expect the team to progress?

By being owned by someone else.

Jason Campbell clearly suffered from a lack of continuity here.

Brady clearly benifitted from the opposite.

It's easy to oversimplify in either direction.

I'm sure had their situations been reversed Brady would still be here and we'd be better than we are while Campbell would not be with New England any more ... but I doubt either would have rings.

I think SM86's basic point is sound ... his FEAR is well grounded in fact.

DarthMonk

StorminMormon86 wrote:

CanesSkins26 wrote:Ok, but then how do you expect the team to progress?

The team is going to progress as long as Snyder keeps his nose out of the so called Shanaplan. Plain and simple.

this franchise is now under the control of Bruce & Mike - NOT Snyder - let's just GET OVER THIS AND MOVE ON

Skinsfan55 wrote:

KazooSkinsFan wrote:Actually they do. I'm in command of my environment, you're a victim of yours.

Yeah sure. Any success you've ever had in life is due purely to your own effort. So you didn't have good parenting, caring teachers, positive work environments, good relationships and networking with co-workers and bosses?

I could flip this around and say you are saying that people have no control over their own lives at all period, couldn't I? That you have to argue this way is your concession that you lost. I'm not bothering to respond to the ridiculous crap that follows this crap.

DarthMonk wrote:I'm sure had their situations been reversed Brady would still be here and we'd be better than we are while Campbell would not be with New England any more ... but I doubt either would have rings.

Exactly. Coaching and the team they play for makes a huge difference how successful they are. But people aren't kelp who float in the ocean and are just shaped by currents either as some argue. Most of our success will be what we make of ourselves. Listening to the right people isn't just coincidence either, we pick who and what we listen to. In the end, we get lots of help. But our success is ultimately based on ourselves and anyone who doesn't get that isn't getting it.