WR..... Who stays? Who goes? who comes back?

[The Hogster]

1niksder wrote:

For some reason almost everyone missed this

Sure. Almost everyone missed your true meaning. It's our fault. It couldn't possibly be that what you're saying makes no sense.

You're retreating from your earlier statements now. The bottom line is the group of receivers you said will make the team includes Taurus Johnson, Niles Paul, Maurice Price, and possibly Aldrick Robinson. So you obviously think that one or more of these guys will beat out Banks as a Kick Returner, Punt Returner, and Wide Receiver. Even though you haven't seen ANY one of these guys play in an NFL game. Yea, no bias on your part. Almost everyone just "missed" your point.

Thanks Yupchagee for also pointing out the stats yet again. He used yet another source to disprove your 19th and 27th ranking. I guess you take issue with that too.

1niksder wrote:

nor do they know what a fact is let alone how to determine average yards per kick for unless you have more than one

You're the only person here who is trying to rank Banks behind people who only returned 1 kick. I guess you really don't understand what the word AVERAGE means.

[crazyhorse1]

Among qualifiers, he was T9 in PR & T11 in KR. That's while playing through an injury. I think most teams would consider him worth keeping. If we cut him, he won't be out of a job for long.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/stats/bycat ... ame=ToDate

Don't forget that two of his TD's were called back because of illegal blocks that didn't effect the plays. Add in those two and his stats go up considerably. Compile everything and you'll discover that he was one of the NFL premiere returners last year. Whether or not he can make it as a WR is of zero significance. Shanny won't be stupid enough to risk him at WR on a regular basis. Anything can happen in football, but right now his job security is more solid than all but a handful of Skins.

[KazooSkinsFan]

Among qualifiers, he was T9 in PR & T11 in KR. That's while playing through an injury. I think most teams would consider him worth keeping. If we cut him, he won't be out of a job for long.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/stats/bycat ... ame=ToDate

Don't forget that two of his TD's were called back because of illegal blocks that didn't effect the plays. Add in those two and his stats go up considerably. Compile everything and you'll discover that he was one of the NFL premiere returners last year. Whether or not he can make it as a WR is of zero significance. Shanny won't be stupid enough to risk him at WR on a regular basis. Anything can happen in football, but right now his job security is more solid than all but a handful of Skins.

Good point on the two called back, I was thinking the same thing. But to say he's achieved "premiere" is a bit premature. That two being called back plunged his numbers so far is a good demonstration that he's still near the make or break line. He's on the bubble. I agree with you and Hogster's optimism for him and hope you're right, but I think you're ahead of yourselves in saying he's there.

[KazooSkinsFan]

1niksder wrote:

nor do they know what a fact is let alone how to determine average yards per kick for unless you have more than one

You're the only person here who is trying to rank Banks behind people who only returned 1 kick. I guess you really don't understand what the word AVERAGE means.

You guys realize mathematically someone who has returned one kick's average is the number of yards for the one kick? You don't need two returns to have an average. I knew my math major would come in handy one day...

On the other hand what is important here is statistical significance and to Hogster's point to get that's a lot more then one return. Probably a good dozen returns would be necessary. There are statistical tools to address that, like a chi squared test.

But I don't think Banks is at that point, he's still learning to return kicks and the rules are changing. He needs to just keep working on it. I can't imagine he won't get that chance. But it's not going to be an endless one either. No one could have won this debate yet, Banks future is clearly still in the air.

[1niksder]

1niksder wrote:

For some reason almost everyone missed this

Sure. Almost everyone missed your true meaning. It's our fault. It couldn't possibly be that what you're saying makes no sense.

It was in my first post and every other post that had anything to do with Banks not making the team. We know you missed it and we know why.

You're retreating from your earlier statements now.

Show me where you read a switch in my view on this topic... that's right you can

The bottom line is the group of receivers you said will make the team includes Taurus Johnson, Niles Paul, Maurice Price, and possibly Aldrick Robinson. So you obviously think that one or more of these guys will beat out Banks as a Kick Returner, Punt Returner, and Wide Receiver.

Anyone that read my post will see I included newly drafted WR and RBs and had a Chad Simpson reference in there somewhere too. Anyone one that read my post would know I didn't say it would be a WR that might replace Banks.

Even though you haven't seen ANY one of these guys play in an NFL game. Yea, no bias on your part. Almost everyone just "missed" your point.

You said this was pointless so we know you missed it.

Thanks Yupchagee for also pointing out the stats yet again. He used yet another source to disprove your 19th and 27th ranking. I guess you take issue with that too.

You're the only person here who is trying to rank Banks behind people who only returned 1 kick. I guess you really don't understand what the word AVERAGE means.

I went to NFL.com and looked up kick returns (it's pre sorted by averages) but you didn't like that so you say I'm trying to rank him behind people with only 1 return. I didn't set up the NFL.com site but I did remove everyone with less than 10 returns and advised of the results. You pull stats from a site that remove players before the list is sorted and sort by your stat of choice. Then come back and say I don't know the meaning of averages because a guy with 1 return for 60 yards doesn't average 60 yards per return.

OK genius what is the avg yards per return for a guy with one return for 60 yards.

Please don't retreat on your position and come back with something stupid like sixty

[1niksder]

1niksder wrote:

nor do they know what a fact is let alone how to determine average yards per kick for unless you have more than one

You're the only person here who is trying to rank Banks behind people who only returned 1 kick. I guess you really don't understand what the word AVERAGE means.

You guys realize mathematically someone who has returned one kick's average is the number of yards for the one kick? You don't need two returns to have an average. .

Best I can tell only one of us doesn't know that. He must have missed math class that day but we know he wasn't in a reading class either.

Among qualifiers, he was T9 in PR & T11 in KR. That's while playing through an injury. I think most teams would consider him worth keeping. If we cut him, he won't be out of a job for long.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/stats/bycat ... ame=ToDate

But what about these stats and their qualifiers?

2011 Stats for Kickoff Returns Showing Banks is 12th in Return Avg

http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics/playe ... KickReturn

2011 Stats for Punt Returns Showing Banks is 9th in Return Avg

http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics/playe ... PuntReturn

Wow you're slow. You are using a stat sheet that is Un-Qualified. Unqualified means that it includes every player in the league who returned a kickoff or punt at all even when ranking by AVERAGES. It wouldn't be so ignorant if you weren't sorting by Kick Return Average. But, you apparently are. So, a player that had 1 return for 40 yards, will have a 40 yard avg and will be ranked higher than Banks and everyone else for that matter. Look at the QUALIFIED stats that track leaders based on averages, yardage, etc.

EVEN using YOUR source, Banks is Top 10. If you're going to rank him on an UN Qualified list, you need to SORT by YARDS so that a player that had 1 return for 60 yards, isn't above a player that had 50 returns for 1200 yards because his average is lower.

Banks is 10th in KOR Yards: http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats? ... ified=true

Banks is 3rd in Punt Return Yards: http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats? ... ified=true

If you want NFL stats go to NFL.com or you get mixed results from site to site. How are they determining what qualifies as a kick return, and why are they not coming up with the same rankings? Because they are subjective to the site.

T9 or being 10th isn't a big difference but it's not the same, so by all that's been said about stats..... One if not both of you are using flawed stats.

Oh wait..... yupchagee stat's have been endorsed by the guy that said "It's better to be thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt."

No doubt about it.

And I almost missed this

I'll let this thread speak for itself. Just like your Adam Archuletta debacle a few years back.

I thought you got over this, that was a long time ago. Or maybe this what you are mad about

I like how you're trying to take up for the guy....

Your arguments would be a lot stronger if your posts weren't so pompous. From your last one:

"if you could read as well as you think you can"
"go on and keep making a mockery of yourself"
"I choose to back mine up with facts or keep my mouth shut. Both of you should try it."

Despite your claim your views are backed up with facts, as my prior and growing list in this post goes you are a lot more interested in backing up your posts with insults.

And while you claim you can read because you have a degree (Dexter Manley had one too) you say I'm picking up 1niksder's argument when in fact my only quote on your discussion was in agreement with your position. I was arguing he won the debate and supporting that, not arguing AA.

You can argue you can read because of your degree, but your arguments are illogical, you put words in people's mouths, you tell everyone else to read threads throughly while you demonstrate a weak grasp of them yourself, and you say you present facts, but have a hard time tying them to what people actually said.

I'm not impressed. You should have gone to Virginia Tech.

If so just remember I spell my name with a number first and Kaz doesn't have any numbers in his name at all

[Red_One43]

Players need 20 kickoff returns in a season to officially qualify for the NFL rankings ...

http://www.chicagobears.com/news/ChalkT ... ry_id=7446

[1niksder]

Players need 20 kickoff returns in a season to officially qualify for the NFL rankings ...

http://www.chicagobears.com/news/ChalkT ... ry_id=7446

I didn't know that, now I do... Thank you very much.

But what does that have to do with him making the team if he isn't the return man?

Let's just use guys that had at least 20 returns....

Banks still isn't a top 10 kickoff return man and barely made the top ten on punts (tied for ninth with four players).

Of the group of 13, ten are WRs {2 had no catches, all the others minus Banks had at least 10, and most had more than 30 and at least 1 scoring catch}

There are 8 WR ranked higher than Banks in kick off returns (2 had no catches) all the rest had twice as many catches as Banks.

To me that says the top return men in the NFL do contribute in other ways to their teams.

Jim Leonhard is tied with Banks in average yards per punt return and he the started 11 games at safety for the Jets.

Danny Amendola started 6 games for the Rams and had 85 catches as a WR it didn't hurt his ability to return kicks because he had the same average has Banks.

And those that rank close to Banks do even more.

[Red_One43]

One thing, that garnered my interest during all the Banks talk that went on this thread was the lack of talk about the skills of our wideout draftees especially the return skills. We know Shanny does not give an advantage to draftees - his words and practice over his career. Talk has been made of the return skills of the draftees and the posssibility that they could replace Banks (The return talk includes RB draftees as a replacement for Banks as a returner). I wanted to at least look at their potential.

I will look at Paul first.

Some of us, including me, have picked Niles Paul as one of our six guys making the roster for the 2011-12 season.

At 6 -1 he has good height - tall for a Redskin receiver.
Weighs 220 - he is a big receiver.

A 4.5 for the 40 (NFL Combine) - not blazing speed, but good speed.

First Team All Big 12 Punt Returner
WEaknesses - what is consistently listed is his drops and lack of concentration - all correctable issues with good coaching.

I think that Paul's chances of making the team are great not just because of his size but because of his work ethic and versatily at the receiver position.

What remains to be seen is can he run routes and learn the offense. These are key issues, but Paul is also a good kick returner. That skill pretty much solidifies his position on the team. Lots of rookies wideouts need a year to get acclimated to the NFL, so being a punt retuner to me, elevates his chances. Doe he have to unseat Banks as the returner to make the team. Shanny says that is not the issue.

... But Shanahan said the acquisition of Paul isn’t an indication that the Redskins are no longer confident in Banks. Instead, he said, “You never know if a guy will go down, get hurt, and you want special teams in your background. … The more depth you can have on your football team, the better off you’re going to be.”

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/foo ... _blog.html



How does he compare with Austin and Banks as a returner? Comparing college performance is not an indicator of how a player will do in the pros, but college performance is one of the things scouts look at when evaluating a player. All us fans have is stats to go by and what scouts say and what we may have seen when watching their games when evaluating college player. I have provided the last two years kick return stats of Austin, Banks and Paul just to see some stats scouts looked at before drafting or inviting these players to camp. Note* Both Paul and Banks played in my favorite conference the BIG 12 and they shared 2009 together, so they basically played against the same competition. Two of Banks' four KOR TDs were were 98 yards against Nebraska and Oklahoma. Paul's 101 yard return in 2010 came against OK-State. So, Paul's return also wasn't against a patsy. Surprisingly Banks was not a prolific punt returner in college like he was a kick off returner. Banks was considered an explosive returner coming out of college - a threat to score every time he touched the ball. Paul doesn't have that label, but he is a consistent returner and under the knew rules will definitely be great to have a depth as a returner. Austin, showed a little flash as a punt returner in the pre-season taking one of his 4 returns 22 yards, but his college career as a return man was shockling average. He was considered one of the best returnmen coming out of high school.

Paul:

2009 Nebraska Big 12 JR WR
KO - 16 /446/ 27.9/ 0 TD
PR - 38 /407 /10.7 /1 TD

2010 Nebraska Big 12 SR WR

KO - 19/ 464/ 24.4/ 1 TD
PR - 14 /160 /11.4

http://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/pla ... aul-1.html
Austin:

2008 UCLA Pac-10 JR WR
KO - 46/ 1109/ 24.1/ 0 TD
PR - 23/ 219/ 9.5/ 0 TD

2009 UCLA Pac-10 SR WR
KO - 43 /1036/ 24.1/ 0 TD
PR - 33/ 302 /9.2/ 0 TD

http://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/pla ... tin-1.html

Banks:

2008 Kansas State Big 12 JR WR
KO - 18 /498/ 27.7 / 1 TD
PR - 5 /58/ 11.6 / 0 TD

2009 Kansas State Big 12 SR WR
KO - 39/ 1127 /28.9/ 4 TD
PR- 17 /155 /9.1/ 0 TD

http://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/pla ... nks-1.html

Once again, the stats prove nothing, but since Banks was the only one of the three to return kicks in an NFL regualar season game on a consistent basis, so I used the college stats.

I still have to keep one Paul as one of my six that I posted on earlier post. I defintely will keep Banks as well. I am just not seeing Austin making the roster unless he has improved is return skills and has honed his receiver skills.

Robinson, I will look at next. I didn't pick him, but he is considered to already have the receiver pedigree.

[Red_One43]

Players need 20 kickoff returns in a season to officially qualify for the NFL rankings ...

http://www.chicagobears.com/news/ChalkT ... ry_id=7446

I didn't know that, now I do... Thank you very much.

But what does that have to do with him making the team if he isn't the return man?

Let's just use guys that had at least 20 returns....

Banks still isn't a top 10 kickoff return man and barely made the top ten on punts (tied for ninth with four players).

Of the group of 13, ten are WRs {2 had no catches, all the others minus Banks had at least 10, and most had more than 30 and at least 1 scoring catch}

There are 8 WR ranked higher than Banks in kick off returns (2 had no catches) all the rest had twice as many catches as Banks.

To me that says the top return men in the NFL do contribute in other ways to their teams.

Jim Leonhard is tied with Banks in average yards per punt return and he the started 11 games at safety for the Jets.

Danny Amendola started 6 games for the Rams and had 85 catches as a WR it didn't hurt his ability to return kicks because he had the same average has Banks.

And those that rank close to Banks do even more.

You're welcome.

To me, what you just posted are fair questions being asked asked based on the NFL qualified returners.

[1niksder]

Once again, the stats prove nothing, but since Banks was the only one of the three to return kicks in an NFL regualar season game on a consistent basis, so I used the college stats.

I still have to keep one Paul as one of my six that I posted on earlier post. I defintely will keep Banks as well. I am just not seeing Austin making the roster unless he has improved is return skills and has honed his receiver skills.

Robinson, I will look at next. I didn't pick him, but he is considered to already have the receiver pedigree.

We might get this thread back to the original topic after all.

I think Paul will make the team as a WR if he takes over the return duties Banks becomes a luxury. If both Paul and Banks perform based on the stats you posted then they both will make the team unless someone puts up better numbers in the return game. I really don't see Austin making the team. His only option is as a return man and Banks beat him out last year.

[Red_One43]

Once again, the stats prove nothing, but since Banks was the only one of the three to return kicks in an NFL regualar season game on a consistent basis, so I used the college stats.

I still have to keep one Paul as one of my six that I posted on earlier post. I defintely will keep Banks as well. I am just not seeing Austin making the roster unless he has improved is return skills and has honed his receiver skills.

Robinson, I will look at next. I didn't pick him, but he is considered to already have the receiver pedigree.

We might get this thread back to the original topic after all.

I think Paul will make the team as a WR if he takes over the return duties Banks becomes a luxury. If both Paul and Banks perform based on the stats you posted then they both will make the team unless someone puts up better numbers in the return game. I really don't see Austin making the team. His only option is as a return man and Banks beat him out last year.

I think that Paul makes the team outright as a WR. I read one scouting report that said that he gets separation on his routes. I did read another that says he runs poor routes. I don't post links of scouting report stuff when it is inconsistent, but I will go with the positive report since it reflects his receiving career (Nebraska didn't throw much so his numbers weren't big but they were very good for Nebraska). His work ethic is a key ingredient that leads me to believe that he will learn the offense and be a good student of the pro game.

Not convinced that he takes the KO duties from Banks, but he will be another option (Helu is also an option as a KO returner). Banks is too explosive to keep on the sidelines for KORs. Banks needs to make sure that he doen't develop the dropsies during pre-season or he will be sent packing because of the presence of Paul and Helu. At WR, I also look for Shanny to try to use Banks more like K-State did in 2009. They did anything that they could to get him the ball. He caught 67 Balls 1049 yards for 9 TDs and had him and ran 7 times for 126 yards and 1 TD.

Austin, I don't see making the team as well, but I do believe that he is PS eligible so he can hang around another year if he has no other options.

[brad7686]

I look at it this way, we have a guy who is definitely arguable as a top ten at something, in this instance returning kicks. We only have ey, Landry, and Hall that you could even argue are top ten at what they do other than Banks. Banks also had more than needed called back due to clips, and I would say that our kick return blocking is nothing special. Banks is A LOT more athletic than some of the guys listed before him on that list.

[brad7686]

I look at it this way, we have a guy who is definitely arguable as a top ten at something, in this instance returning kicks. We only have ey, Landry, Orakpo, Fletcher and Hall that you could even argue are top ten at what they do other than Banks. Banks also had more than needed called back due to clips, and I would say that our kick return blocking is nothing special. Banks is A LOT more athletic than some of the guys listed before him on that list.

[jmooney]

With the exception of what its going to cost to resign Santana, (which we must do IMO) our reciever corps is relatively inexpensive. For a rookie like Banks to rank in the top 10 in return avg. and its likely that would improve this year. Makes a strong argument to keep him on the roster. Especially if hes doing both punts and kickoffs.

2 reasons.

Theres going to be limited time spent on special teams with a shortened training camp for all teams. Advantage= Returners

It allows the rookie recievers coming in to focus on the playbook and their position more, especially with an abbreviated offseason. And it decreases their chance of injury.


Anytime a coach can plug a guy into a spot and say " I dont have to worry about it" thats a luxury in a season where practice time is going to be at a premium. Even if the guy isnt an ideal fit at any other position.

With the QB position up in the air and a lack of consistancy out of our kicking game. I say make room for a kid that can rank in the top 10 in returns and go to the house any time he touches the rock. Especially at what hes going to cost.

[crazyhorse1]

One thing, that garnered my interest during all the Banks talk that went on this thread was the lack of talk about the skills of our wideout draftees especially the return skills. We know Shanny does not give an advantage to draftees - his words and practice over his career. Talk has been made of the return skills of the draftees and the posssibility that they could replace Banks (The return talk includes RB draftees as a replacement for Banks as a returner). I wanted to at least look at their potential.

I will look at Paul first.

Some of us, including me, have picked Niles Paul as one of our six guys making the roster for the 2011-12 season.

At 6 -1 he has good height - tall for a Redskin receiver.
Weighs 220 - he is a big receiver.

A 4.5 for the 40 (NFL Combine) - not blazing speed, but good speed.

First Team All Big 12 Punt Returner
WEaknesses - what is consistently listed is his drops and lack of concentration - all correctable issues with good coaching.

I think that Paul's chances of making the team are great not just because of his size but because of his work ethic and versatily at the receiver position.

What remains to be seen is can he run routes and learn the offense. These are key issues, but Paul is also a good kick returner. That skill pretty much solidifies his position on the team. Lots of rookies wideouts need a year to get acclimated to the NFL, so being a punt retuner to me, elevates his chances. Doe he have to unseat Banks as the returner to make the team. Shanny says that is not the issue.

... But Shanahan said the acquisition of Paul isn’t an indication that the Redskins are no longer confident in Banks. Instead, he said, “You never know if a guy will go down, get hurt, and you want special teams in your background. … The more depth you can have on your football team, the better off you’re going to be.”

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/foo ... _blog.html



How does he compare with Austin and Banks as a returner? Comparing college performance is not an indicator of how a player will do in the pros, but college performance is one of the things scouts look at when evaluating a player. All us fans have is stats to go by and what scouts say and what we may have seen when watching their games when evaluating college player. I have provided the last two years kick return stats of Austin, Banks and Paul just to see some stats scouts looked at before drafting or inviting these players to camp. Note* Both Paul and Banks played in my favorite conference the BIG 12 and they shared 2009 together, so they basically played against the same competition. Two of Banks' four KOR TDs were were 98 yards against Nebraska and Oklahoma. Paul's 101 yard return in 2010 came against OK-State. So, Paul's return also wasn't against a patsy. Surprisingly Banks was not a prolific punt returner in college like he was a kick off returner. Banks was considered an explosive returner coming out of college - a threat to score every time he touched the ball. Paul doesn't have that label, but he is a consistent returner and under the knew rules will definitely be great to have a depth as a returner. Austin, showed a little flash as a punt returner in the pre-season taking one of his 4 returns 22 yards, but his college career as a return man was shockling average. He was considered one of the best returnmen coming out of high school.

Paul:

2009 Nebraska Big 12 JR WR
KO - 16 /446/ 27.9/ 0 TD
PR - 38 /407 /10.7 /1 TD

2010 Nebraska Big 12 SR WR

KO - 19/ 464/ 24.4/ 1 TD
PR - 14 /160 /11.4

http://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/pla ... aul-1.html
Austin:

2008 UCLA Pac-10 JR WR
KO - 46/ 1109/ 24.1/ 0 TD
PR - 23/ 219/ 9.5/ 0 TD

2009 UCLA Pac-10 SR WR
KO - 43 /1036/ 24.1/ 0 TD
PR - 33/ 302 /9.2/ 0 TD

http://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/pla ... tin-1.html

Banks:

2008 Kansas State Big 12 JR WR
KO - 18 /498/ 27.7 / 1 TD
PR - 5 /58/ 11.6 / 0 TD

2009 Kansas State Big 12 SR WR
KO - 39/ 1127 /28.9/ 4 TD
PR- 17 /155 /9.1/ 0 TD

http://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/pla ... nks-1.html

Once again, the stats prove nothing, but since Banks was the only one of the three to return kicks in an NFL regualar season game on a consistent basis, so I used the college stats.

I still have to keep one Paul as one of my six that I posted on earlier post. I defintely will keep Banks as well. I am just not seeing Austin making the roster unless he has improved is return skills and has honed his receiver skills.

Robinson, I will look at next. I didn't pick him, but he is considered to already have the receiver pedigree.

Your idea of big is different from mine, especially in regard tp speed. Paul is too small to be so slow. He is two to three tenths of a second slower than Banks in the 40, which is enormous. Neither his weight nor height is in any way exceptional. His college record as KR and PR is very good, but not stellar for a guy who is going to stick in the NFL. As you say, he's not known as a runner who threatens to take it to the house and as a WR has issues catching the ball. Your notion that he can be coached in the pros into having good hands is dubious. He's already had years of good coaching.
He might make it in the NFL (stranger things have happened), but he looks like camp fodder to me.

[The Hogster]

1niksder Wrote:

How are they determining what qualifies as a kick return, and why are they not coming up with the same rankings? Because they are subjective to the site.

Um no they aren't. You just don't know what it takes to qualify. Apparently you believe you know everything. So, if you don't know it, it must not be real.

1niksder Wrote:

One if not both of you are using flawed stats.

So the stats are flawed. Right. I get it. You couldn't possibly be wrong. It's gotta be a flaw in the statistics.

After Red One did your research for you and explained to you what a qualified list means, you finally say

1nikser Wrote:
I didn't know that, now I do... Thank you very much

.

Yeah obviously Sherlock. You didn't know what you were talking about. But, instead of actually finding out on your own why a player with 1 return can't be ranked above a player with 46 returns based on AVERAGES. Why? Because you can't accurately assess a players average based on one friggin return. Apparently that was rocket science.

But in typical 1niksder fashion, you continue your ant-Banks argument while also now using the same stats that I told you earlier in this thread.

1niksder Wrote
Let's just use guys that had at least 20 returns....

Banks still isn't a top 10 kickoff return man and barely made the top ten on punts (tied for ninth with four players).

Welcome to 3rd grade dude. I told you a few pages ago that Banks was 9th in Punt Returns and 12th in KOR based on AVERAGE. But, of course, my stats were flawed. Now you've come up with the same ranking. So, I guess it's right when you say it. Because, umm it's you saying it and you're a genius.

The saga continues...

1niksder Wrote: There are 8 WR ranked higher than Banks in kick off returns (2 had no catches) all the rest had twice as many catches as Banks.

To me that says the top return men in the NFL do contribute in other ways to their teams.

Bravo, you've finally started doing your homework instead of talking out of your arse. Too bad you are conveniently ignoring the fact that the players who ALSO return punts did not catch a single pass as pointed out earlier. Of the Top 10 KOReturners, only 2 of them--Stefan Logan and Marc Mariani--ALSO return PUNTS. You are looking at the receiving stats of players that only return KICKS. Banks does both.

1niksder wrote: Jim Leonhard is tied with Banks in average yards per punt return and he the started 11 games at safety for the Jets

Yeah, and he doesn't return Kickoffs either. But, whatever.

1niskder Wrote:

I thought you got over this, that was a long time ago

I never can get enough of embarrassing you in a debate. You make it so easy the way you get so defensive about your opinions. That Archuletta debate was classic, and you were wrong as usual. This never gets old.


Anyway, to get on topic. I see no way to justify placing Maurice Price, Taurus Johnson, and either Niles Paul or Aldrick Robinson on the roster over Banks. If I were to bet against one definitely not making it, it would be Taurus Johnson. Brandon Banks is a league leader in BOTH KOR and PR. He also gives us an added dimension if you can get him the ball in space. Teams have to account for him whether he touches the ball or not. You're welcome.

[langleyparkjoe]

I can't even keep up with the thread.. ya'll multi quotes and paragraphs are killin me. LOL

[The Hogster]

In a nutshell, 1niksder embarassing himself again trying to look like he knows what he's talking about and Kazoo co-signing 1niksder because that's all he really is good at here.

At the end of the day, this is a long, pointless thread about why Brandon Banks should get a little respect instead of being cast aside for Taurus Johnson, Maurice Price, or a rookie we haven't seen play. Since 1niksder can't stand to lose an argument and will drag one on for months, we have this hodgepodge of nothing.

[1niksder]

1niksder Wrote:

How are they determining what qualifies as a kick return, and why are they not coming up with the same rankings? Because they are subjective to the site.

Um no they aren't. You just don't know what it takes to qualify. Apparently you believe you know everything. So, if you don't know it, it must not be real.

1niksder Wrote:

One if not both of you are using flawed stats.

So the stats are flawed. Right. I get it. You couldn't possibly be wrong. It's gotta be a flaw in the statistics.

If you comprehend what I've posted you would understand that I've stated you and yup had the qualifiers correct and we've moved on, other than your numbers don't match or you both would have had identical numbers. But reading is fundamental

After Red One did your research for you and explained to you what a qualified list means, you finally say

1nikser Wrote:
I didn't know that, now I do... Thank you very much

.

Yeah obviously Sherlock. You didn't know what you were talking about. But, instead of actually finding out on your own why a player with 1 return can't be ranked above a player with 46 returns based on AVERAGES. Why? Because you can't accurately assess a players average based on one friggin return. Apparently that was rocket science.

Red did something you rarely do he added to the conversation instead of throwing around insults and BS.

But in typical 1niksder fashion, you continue your ant-Banks argument while also now using the same stats that I told you earlier in this thread.

It's anti-Banks and we both have a history on this site I stand by mine while you continue to try and remake your. But that won't work because WE CAN READ

1niksder Wrote
Let's just use guys that had at least 20 returns....

Banks still isn't a top 10 kickoff return man and barely made the top ten on punts (tied for ninth with four players).

Welcome to 3rd grade dude. I told you a few pages ago that Banks was 9th in Punt Returns and 12th in KOR based on AVERAGE. But, of course, my stats were flawed. Now you've come up with the same ranking. So, I guess it's right when you say it. Because, umm it's you saying it and you're a genius.

I said Banks wasn't a top 10 Kick returner at the start of his greatness talk and you proved me wrong three pages ago..... by showing he's ranked 12th

The saga continues...

1niksder Wrote: There are 8 WR ranked higher than Banks in kick off returns (2 had no catches) all the rest had twice as many catches as Banks.

To me that says the top return men in the NFL do contribute in other ways to their teams.

Bravo, you've finally started doing your homework instead of talking out of your arse. Too bad you are conveniently ignoring the fact that the players who ALSO return punts did not catch a single pass as pointed out earlier. Of the Top 10 KOReturners, only 2 of them--Stefan Logan and Marc Mariani--ALSO return PUNTS. You are looking at the receiving stats of players that only return KICKS. Banks does both.

Again the debate wasn't about Banks as return man, But since you don't understand let's do it your way...
All NFL team don't use one guy to do both jobs and some teams use more than one guy at both spots like the Eagle they have Maclin, and DeSean Jackson I could compare them to Banks as a WR but it wouldn't be fair. So just the guys that return punts and kicks...

Let's look at the Hogster's argument and see what we get.

He say's "Of the Top 10 KOReturners, only 2 of them--Stefan Logan and Marc Mariani--ALSO return PUNTS. " but we both no that Banks isn't a top 10 KOR. So why limit it just to just the top ten? Because Logan and Mariani
fit's the Hogster's POV other WR return both types of kicks but they weren't mentioned. Shouldn't Banks be compared to his peers? I think so. Other non-top 10 WR that return KOs and Punts include Micheal Spurlock who plays WR for the Bucs, and Jacoby Jones is a Texans WR they both have 20+ returns in each category, and they both have more scoring catches in 2010 than Banks had catches (maybe that's why they were excluded), I bet the Hogster didn't know that Logan was a WR with the Steelers in 2009 but converted to RB when he signed with the Lions and is listed as a RB with a 6.3 yard average on 15 carries for the Lions (does that give enough of a reason to not mention him) and Mariani brings the total number of WR that return Punts and kickoffs to 4, the one with no catches landed in the Pro Bowl.

1niksder wrote: Jim Leonhard is tied with Banks in average yards per punt return and he the started 11 games at safety for the Jets

Yeah, and he doesn't return Kickoffs either. But, whatever.

1niskder Wrote:

I thought you got over this, that was a long time ago

I never can get enough of embarrassing you in a debate. You make it so easy the way you get so defensive about your opinions. That Archuletta debate was classic, and you were wrong as usual. This never gets old.

If embarrassing me in a debate makes you happy I'm all for it, let me know when you are going to start

Anyway, to get on topic. I see no way to justify placing Maurice Price, Taurus Johnson, and either Niles Paul or Aldrick Robinson on the roster over Banks. If I were to bet against one definitely not making it, it would be Taurus Johnson. Brandon Banks is a league leader in BOTH KOR and PR. He also gives us an added dimension if you can get him the ball in space. Teams have to account for him whether he touches the ball or not. You're welcome.

I see no reason to continue this back and forth until you have something to add, then again Johnson is the only one that won't qualify for the PS

[Red_One43]

One thing, that garnered my interest during all the Banks talk that went on this thread was the lack of talk about the skills of our wideout draftees especially the return skills. We know Shanny does not give an advantage to draftees - his words and practice over his career. Talk has been made of the return skills of the draftees and the posssibility that they could replace Banks (The return talk includes RB draftees as a replacement for Banks as a returner). I wanted to at least look at their potential.

I will look at Paul first.

Some of us, including me, have picked Niles Paul as one of our six guys making the roster for the 2011-12 season.

At 6 -1 he has good height - tall for a Redskin receiver.
Weighs 220 - he is a big receiver.

A 4.5 for the 40 (NFL Combine) - not blazing speed, but good speed.

First Team All Big 12 Punt Returner
WEaknesses - what is consistently listed is his drops and lack of concentration - all correctable issues with good coaching.

I think that Paul's chances of making the team are great not just because of his size but because of his work ethic and versatily at the receiver position.

What remains to be seen is can he run routes and learn the offense. These are key issues, but Paul is also a good kick returner. That skill pretty much solidifies his position on the team. Lots of rookies wideouts need a year to get acclimated to the NFL, so being a punt retuner to me, elevates his chances. Doe he have to unseat Banks as the returner to make the team. Shanny says that is not the issue.

... But Shanahan said the acquisition of Paul isn’t an indication that the Redskins are no longer confident in Banks. Instead, he said, “You never know if a guy will go down, get hurt, and you want special teams in your background. … The more depth you can have on your football team, the better off you’re going to be.”

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/foo ... _blog.html



How does he compare with Austin and Banks as a returner? Comparing college performance is not an indicator of how a player will do in the pros, but college performance is one of the things scouts look at when evaluating a player. All us fans have is stats to go by and what scouts say and what we may have seen when watching their games when evaluating college player. I have provided the last two years kick return stats of Austin, Banks and Paul just to see some stats scouts looked at before drafting or inviting these players to camp. Note* Both Paul and Banks played in my favorite conference the BIG 12 and they shared 2009 together, so they basically played against the same competition. Two of Banks' four KOR TDs were were 98 yards against Nebraska and Oklahoma. Paul's 101 yard return in 2010 came against OK-State. So, Paul's return also wasn't against a patsy. Surprisingly Banks was not a prolific punt returner in college like he was a kick off returner. Banks was considered an explosive returner coming out of college - a threat to score every time he touched the ball. Paul doesn't have that label, but he is a consistent returner and under the knew rules will definitely be great to have a depth as a returner. Austin, showed a little flash as a punt returner in the pre-season taking one of his 4 returns 22 yards, but his college career as a return man was shockling average. He was considered one of the best returnmen coming out of high school.

Paul:

2009 Nebraska Big 12 JR WR
KO - 16 /446/ 27.9/ 0 TD
PR - 38 /407 /10.7 /1 TD

2010 Nebraska Big 12 SR WR

KO - 19/ 464/ 24.4/ 1 TD
PR - 14 /160 /11.4

http://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/pla ... aul-1.html
Austin:

2008 UCLA Pac-10 JR WR
KO - 46/ 1109/ 24.1/ 0 TD
PR - 23/ 219/ 9.5/ 0 TD

2009 UCLA Pac-10 SR WR
KO - 43 /1036/ 24.1/ 0 TD
PR - 33/ 302 /9.2/ 0 TD

http://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/pla ... tin-1.html

Banks:

2008 Kansas State Big 12 JR WR
KO - 18 /498/ 27.7 / 1 TD
PR - 5 /58/ 11.6 / 0 TD

2009 Kansas State Big 12 SR WR
KO - 39/ 1127 /28.9/ 4 TD
PR- 17 /155 /9.1/ 0 TD

http://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/pla ... nks-1.html

Once again, the stats prove nothing, but since Banks was the only one of the three to return kicks in an NFL regualar season game on a consistent basis, so I used the college stats.

I still have to keep one Paul as one of my six that I posted on earlier post. I defintely will keep Banks as well. I am just not seeing Austin making the roster unless he has improved is return skills and has honed his receiver skills.

Robinson, I will look at next. I didn't pick him, but he is considered to already have the receiver pedigree.

Your idea of big is different from mine, especially in regard tp speed. Paul is too small to be so slow. He is two to three tenths of a second slower than Banks in the 40, which is enormous. Neither his weight nor height is in any way exceptional. His college record as KR and PR is very good, but not stellar for a guy who is going to stick in the NFL. As you say, he's not known as a runner who threatens to take it to the house and as a WR has issues catching the ball. Your notion that he can be coached in the pros into having good hands is dubious. He's already had years of good coaching.
He might make it in the NFL (stranger things have happened), but he looks like camp fodder to me.

Clearly, I have gotten waaay too used to Redskin receivers being under 6'0" - your point is well taken.

As far as it being strange that he might make it, here is a question. Would it be any more stranger with Paul making it than Austin hanging around and later making the roster last year? Paul is expected to be an exceptional special teamer and definitely was a better punt returner in college than Austin. Paul's stock in the draft dropped because of some off the field issues that seem to be resolved.

I agree that he won't beat Banks out as the main returner.

[1niksder]

In a nutshell, I still don't have anything to offer so I'll act like the aSS that I am and say it's 1niksder embarassing himself again trying to look like he knows what he's talking about and Kazoo co-signing 1niksder because that's all he really is good at here.

I tried to read this thread but kept having trouble understanding what words mean when they are used together so...At the end of the day, this is a long, pointless thread about why Brandon Banks should get a little respect instead of being cast aside for Taurus Johnson, Maurice Price, or a rookie we haven't seen play. Since 1niksder can't stand to lose an argument and will drag one on for months, we have this hodgepodge of nothing.

I was told that it was about all of the WR's and who we thought might make the final roster, but then I would need to have a opinion on the subject. Anyone that knows me knows I don't and never will have my own opinion, So 1niksder is just attacking my lack of a ability to think for myself and Kaz keeps pointing it out to everyone else.

I could be wrong about all of this because the guy that I pay to change my diapers is also teaching me to read (he reads to me until I get the hang of it) and he called out sick again today, something about sick of dealing with stupid people but of course I didn't understand all that medical stuff, he should be back next week and we'll get this worked out one way or another

I have no problem coming down to your level, if you really want to go there... then let's go there. But take it "there" and let this thread get back on topic.

[Red_One43]

Now, I want to look at Aldrick Robinson.
Here is a height and weight comparison of him and Moss and Austin since the biggest knock on him is his size and that he is a "lanky' 5'10" with very little strength to out muscle DBs for the ball.

I chose Moss for comparison because almost all the scouting reports on Robinson say that he is to be successful in the NFL, it will have to be at the slot. Folks are thinking that Moss will be our Slot receiver next year. I chose Austin because, he is clearly on the bubble this year and Robinson is close to his size.

Aldrick Robinson - 5' 10" 184
Santana Moss - 5'10" - 205
Terrance Austin - 5'11" - 175

http://www.redskins.com/team/roster.html

Robinson - 4.43 Combine 40 yrd dash
Austin - 4.52 Combine
Paul - 4.51 Combine
Santana Moss - 4.31 Combine (Just threw that in for kicks and grins)


Reports on Robinson: The only consistent knock on him is he is small and "frail," "lanky" and lacks a physical game. Everyone seems to agree that he is limited to the slot for the pros and that is why his draft stock slid.

http://www.fanaticalfootballfiend.com/3 ... ports.html

Can he return kicks?

He only returned 5 kick offs for his college career and no punt returns.
A statement by Wes Bunting can give an indication that he could be an outstadning kick returner. Wes Bunting can be found in the link above.

"Displays some wiggle and lateral quickness with the ball in his hands. Gets up to speed quickly, can make a man miss and create after the catch. He's a tough kid who isn't afraid to work the middle of the field as well."


Robinson's prospects on making the roster:

Robinson receiver coach at SMU, Jeff Reinebold:

"Last year, a scout told me that Emmanuel (Sanders) was the most advanced wide receiver he scouted, and this year, I had the same thing said to me about Al," Reinebold said. "One reason June has had so many players in the league is that he teaches the difference between knowledge and understanding, and the fact that you have to have both. Al has both. I'm biased, of course, but when look at some of the guys who were drafted ahead of him, he is so much more advanced as a receiver, the way he runs his routes, the way he uses his hands, the way he sets up defenders. He has gone from being just a fast kid to being a pretty polished receiver."

http://smumustangs.cstv.com/sports/m-fo ... aaa.html#_

I didn't list Robinson as one of my six, but I had him making the practice squad like Austin did last year. After my research. I am saying he makes the team (that means I have to give up on Malcolm Kelly, at least for now). I believe that he will prove to be a good kick returner, but it remains to be seen if he has the vision of Banks as a returns.

My Six right now are

Armstrong
Moss
Hankerson
Paul
Robinson
Banks


Here are college receiving stats for comparison:
Note* Maurice Price and Taurus Johnson have never causght an NFL regualr season pass. Also, Taurus Played for the South Florida Bulls - his destiny.

Aldrick Robinson

http://espn.go.com/college-football/pla ... k-robinson


Taurus Johnson

http://espn.go.com/college-football/pla ... us-johnson

Maurice Price

http://espn.go.com/college-football/pla ... rice-price

Terrence Austin

http://espn.go.com/college-football/pla ... nce-austin

Brandon Banks

http://espn.go.com/college-football/pla ... ndon-banks

Niles Paul

http://espn.go.com/college-football/pla ... niles-paul

[SkinsJock]

all very well but I think they are going to bring in a FA WR - and on the other hand, I'm cogniscant that we need to think long term as well - this franchise is still a work in progress and the offense, especially, needs time


I hope that we bring Moss back - he will be a big help for our younger players

[Redskin in Canada]

I respect the passion and knowledge shown by a number of posters in this thread. I am a bit at a loss to make any calls about the WR corps when we do not have an idea who is the starting QB and what his strengths are as a fit to whatever WRs we have.

HOWEVER, there are people whom I do not want to see back: Malcolm Kelly is one player with whom the team made yet another Draft mistake and he has been given PLENTY of time to show what he did not and could not do. He was diagnosed early enough in the Draft to have had an injury prone career and it was true. He may have great hands according to some experts. Too bad the rest of his body was not up to the level to stand the weekly punishment of the NFL.

Time to cut our losses and let him go.