The-Hogs.net - Washington Football Discussion, Redskins to Commanders Era

frankcal20 wrote:I don't think anyone is saying he is but he's not a dump of a QB either. I think he played well today - but not well enough to win - like the rest of the offense.

who cares if he "played well but not well enough to win"???? isn't winning all that matters!!!! there are no points for "playing well" I want a winner

frankcal20 wrote:I don't think anyone is saying he is but he's not a dump of a QB either. I think he played well today - but not well enough to win - like the rest of the offense.

who cares if he "played well but not well enough to win"???? isn't winning all that matters!!!! there are no points for "playing well" I want a winner

CanesSkins26 wrote:Once again, what precludes us from building up our offensive line if we draft a qb in either the first or second round?

Theismann was a fourth round pick
Williams was a first round pick
Rypien was a sixth round pick

Plenty of other great quarterbacks came out of nowhere. Quite a few quarterbacks drafted in the first round turn out to be busts. It is too hard to know who will develop and adapt to the NFL. You need a lot of luck if you use a high round pick on a QB.

It is much easier to predict which linemen will turn out to be stars, or at least solid starters. Sure some linemen turn out to be busts, but that is usually because of injuries, not because the scouts screwed up.

With so many holesand so little depth on this team, I am in favor os using our picks wisely on players who are likely to become reliable starters. I don't want to roll the dice.

I saw where Wade Phillips was complaining again to the league office about the officiating issues before half time when the Redskins missed the field goal and somebody asked him if he brought up the fact that the officials missed 2 offensive linemen illegally down field on Dallas' touchdown pass... did anybody see that? I deleted the game, so I can't go back and look at it now...

langleyparkjoe wrote:Hey Ray, its not like our last QB before JC had us as "winners"..

A lot of people act like we were God's gift to the NFL before we got JC, maybe we shouldn't go so far back to the glory days but instead remember what we were before JC got here after the glory years. I agree he isn't a real good QB but he's our QB so to not anyone in paticular but maybe just zip it and realize it's called "offense" and not "QB and the boys"

Here's a clue ... No other Qb that I can remember has ever been given the time Campbell has at the position with such poor production, nobody. And I'll tell you what we were BEFORE Campbell .... we were in the playoffs in 2005. Then, by misfortune (or good luck depending on how you look at it) we made the playoffs again in 2007 ... with Campbell sidelined.

Anyone can spin this anyway they want ... but the common denominator here is that the Redskins lose more than they win when Campbell is on the field ... that would be 17 wins out of 45 tries, with several of those wins directly attributable to defense and not offense.

How anyone can downplay the importance of the QB in an offense is beyond me. It is the most important position on the team, and for those harping on o-linemen with LT as the highest priority ... I say this .. you first need a QB to protect!

A good QB will make everyone else on the offense perform better and look better, including the line. And you can't even evaluate your offense without a solid QB. With sporadic and inconsistent QBs like Campbell defeating your passing game also impacts your ability to run, regardless of how good your o-line. Defenses can always stack the box and stop the running game if you can't punish that with the pass.

The Colts would not be the Colts without Manning ... Do you think the Vikings would be 9-1 with T. Jackson at QB? What about the Saints without Brees .. or Arizona without Warner? They'd all be very average at best without their QBs. The Packers would be about in the same boat as the Redskins are now with Campbell at QB instead of Rogers.

I believe the Redskins would EASILY be 7-3 RIGHT NOW with the kind of production Aaron Rogers contributes at QB. Same line .. same receivers .. same everything.

As much as some people like to talk about the Redskins as a poor football team, they are not. They are an excellent defensive football team with a lousy offense .. and the offense starts with a good QB. You cannot have a good offense with a poor QB, and you can't win unless you score points.

Want some interesting stats? Jason Campbell has thrown for 3 TDs in a game exactly ONCE in his entire career. He's failed to throw a SINGLE TD pass in 16 games, and has managed to throw 2 Tds in only 10 games out of 46.

This is a consistently poor pattern that you cannot legitimately blame on everyone else on the team covering 4 seasons.

RayNAustin wrote:

langleyparkjoe wrote:Hey Ray, its not like our last QB before JC had us as "winners"..

A lot of people act like we were God's gift to the NFL before we got JC, maybe we shouldn't go so far back to the glory days but instead remember what we were before JC got here after the glory years. I agree he isn't a real good QB but he's our QB so to not anyone in paticular but maybe just zip it and realize it's called "offense" and not "QB and the boys"

......Anyone can spin this anyway they want ... but the common denominator here is that the Redskins lose more than they win when Campbell is on the field ... that would be 17 wins out of 45 tries, with several of those wins directly attributable to defense and not offense.

......As much as some people like to talk about the Redskins as a poor football team, they are not. They are an excellent defensive football team with a lousy offense .. and the offense starts with a good QB. You cannot have a good offense with a poor QB, and you can't win unless you score points.

Want some interesting stats? Jason Campbell has thrown for 3 TDs in a game exactly ONCE in his entire career. He's failed to throw a SINGLE TD pass in 16 games, and has managed to throw 2 Tds in only 10 games out of 46.

This is a consistently poor pattern that you cannot legitimately blame on everyone else on the team covering 4 seasons.

I like these points and I agree that Campbell is not a winning QB and will not be anytime soon with this team, and probably not with any other team either. The guy just doesn't have it, and he's been given too many chances already.

All of which goes to show why you do not gamble a first round pick on a quarterback like Jason Campbell, Heath Shuler or Patrick Ramsey. I would go a step further and say that gambling on a WR is also a stupid idea. Remember Desmond Howard, Michael Westbrook and Rod Gardner? I know you wish you could say you forgot!

The gamble is not so great a gamble if the guys making the choices know what they are doing and have a plan in place for the franchise to be competitive again - now, if the same guys are in charge here I can understand the hesitation but this 'gamble' would apply to any pick by these guys - IF we have guys in charge here that have a plan, they will get this team back on track fairly quickly through the draft, trades and free agency - no worries

the fact that some here can point to QBs that don't work out is mitigated in my opinion by the fact that nothing is guaranteed and anything can happen once these kids get that huge paycheck - we have a better chance if we make a change and get a GM but if not it really does not matter who we pick with the first pick because the guys here now have no plan except to treat the team like a fantasy team and just bring in the best player avaialable and hope it works

we can fanatasize all we want - the first pick is going to be made by Snyder and if that is not a choice to go in a different direction, then we have more years of misery in front of us

OK. I finally got to see the Redskins...not just listen to Sonny and Sam.

Campbell is plenty good enough.

The OL is so bad that they barely slowed the Cowboys rushers. Every play looked like an ocean wave washing over a beach.

Conclusions:

- Campbell is good enough to be signed again

- Zorn is neither good nor bad...not the source of the problem, and might even be learning how to coach. He should not have been hired, but that was a log time agao.

- The Redskins need to fire Cerrato and hire a real GM. Assistant GM from the Giants, who have been a quality team for a long time. Assistant GM from the Colts...also high quality. Anybody -- even Charlie Casserly -- who can run a footballl operation.

- Snyder needs to outsource his owner's job to Ted Leonisis. Snyder keeps the airplane with the cute name. He gets to smoke cigars with Sonny, and to stand in the owner's box, but that's as close as he gets to players or coaches. (Could Leonsis handle the Caps, the Wizards, and the Redskins? Probably better than Snyder can do with just one team.

- Clear out Pepper Rogers and all the other Snyder pals. Yes, Rogers was a decent coach at UCLA before most THN members were born, but so what? Does that qualify him to advise Snyder on pro-football matters? If Snyder needs a grownup friend, let him hire Richie Petibon and Joe Bugel, since Joe B can't coach forever.

- Campbell is good enough to be signed again

Not even close. The guy is not starter material. He is a backup, at best.

pretty much sums it up for me..........

http://www.the-hogs.net/blogs/2009/11/25 ... er-112309/

welch wrote:OK. I finally got to see the Redskins...not just listen to Sonny and Sam.

Campbell is plenty good enough.

The OL is so bad that they barely slowed the Cowboys rushers. Every play looked like an ocean wave washing over a beach.

Conclusions:

- Campbell is good enough to be signed again

- Zorn is neither good nor bad...not the source of the problem, and might even be learning how to coach. He should not have been hired, but that was a log time agao.

- The Redskins need to fire Cerrato and hire a real GM. Assistant GM from the Giants, who have been a quality team for a long time. Assistant GM from the Colts...also high quality. Anybody -- even Charlie Casserly -- who can run a footballl operation.

- Snyder needs to outsource his owner's job to Ted Leonisis. Snyder keeps the airplane with the cute name. He gets to smoke cigars with Sonny, and to stand in the owner's box, but that's as close as he gets to players or coaches. (Could Leonsis handle the Caps, the Wizards, and the Redskins? Probably better than Snyder can do with just one team.

- Clear out Pepper Rogers and all the other Snyder pals. Yes, Rogers was a decent coach at UCLA before most THN members were born, but so what? Does that qualify him to advise Snyder on pro-football matters? If Snyder needs a grownup friend, let him hire Richie Petibon and Joe Bugel, since Joe B can't coach forever.

You're the history guy right? Well, check the history of the past 18 games started by Campbell. It's 5-13 ... with two of those wins TOTALLY won by the defense with scores of 10-3 and 9-7. Otherwise, the record would be 3-15. And most of those losses were directly related to being unable to put more than 14 points on the board.

The Redskins have issues at o-line ... that's a fact. But we have seen with our own eyes Jason Campbell repeatedly miss open receivers while enjoying good pass pro too. Therefore you cannot blame his inept play on the o-line.

The Skins may not be a 14-2 team, but they are not a Detroit Lions either, and with a solid QB they could easily ride this defense to 10-6 ... 11-5 record with just routine production (20 points).

Remember the putrid offense in 2004? Well that 15 points per game would be better than what we see this year ... and that IS BAD, and it starts with the one guy who has the ball in his hands on every play.

RayNAustin wrote:

welch wrote:OK. I finally got to see the Redskins...not just listen to Sonny and Sam.

Campbell is plenty good enough.

The OL is so bad that they barely slowed the Cowboys rushers. Every play looked like an ocean wave washing over a beach.

Conclusions:

- Campbell is good enough to be signed again

- Zorn is neither good nor bad...not the source of the problem, and might even be learning how to coach. He should not have been hired, but that was a log time agao.

- The Redskins need to fire Cerrato and hire a real GM. Assistant GM from the Giants, who have been a quality team for a long time. Assistant GM from the Colts...also high quality. Anybody -- even Charlie Casserly -- who can run a footballl operation.

- Snyder needs to outsource his owner's job to Ted Leonisis. Snyder keeps the airplane with the cute name. He gets to smoke cigars with Sonny, and to stand in the owner's box, but that's as close as he gets to players or coaches. (Could Leonsis handle the Caps, the Wizards, and the Redskins? Probably better than Snyder can do with just one team.

- Clear out Pepper Rogers and all the other Snyder pals. Yes, Rogers was a decent coach at UCLA before most THN members were born, but so what? Does that qualify him to advise Snyder on pro-football matters? If Snyder needs a grownup friend, let him hire Richie Petibon and Joe Bugel, since Joe B can't coach forever.

You're the history guy right? Well, check the history of the past 18 games started by Campbell. It's 5-13 ... with two of those wins TOTALLY won by the defense with scores of 10-3 and 9-7. Otherwise, the record would be 3-15. And most of those losses were directly related to being unable to put more than 14 points on the board.

The Redskins have issues at o-line ... that's a fact. But we have seen with our own eyes Jason Campbell repeatedly miss open receivers while enjoying good pass pro too. Therefore you cannot blame his inept play on the o-line.

The Skins may not be a 14-2 team, but they are not a Detroit Lions either, and with a solid QB they could easily ride this defense to 10-6 ... 11-5 record with just routine production (20 points).

Remember the putrid offense in 2004? Well that 15 points per game would be better than what we see this year ... and that IS BAD, and it starts with the one guy who has the ball in his hands on every play.

You can't argue with stats, and they do show that the passing offense is bad. Obviously a good portion of that has to do with Campbell, and I think people disagree on just how much of it is his fault.

Personally I would say Campbell is average. He always falls around 16th in qb rating every year, which is correct, because it penalizes him for his lack of yards and td's, while praising him for his completion percentage and lack of int's. While many people complain about him missing receivers, every qb does, and he does pretty good except for some deep passes. Its arguable that his completion percentage is helped by the west coast offense, but its also arguable that A) If any of the receivers could catch aside from the tight ends, he would complete a lot more passes, and b) if the line could hold up for more than 1 second, more plays could develop downfield.

Which brings us to the line and receivers. The line is in the bottom 5, i don't think anyone would argue that. We have one veteran receiver who has had one great year, and very few good years aside from that. Another veteran receiver who is adequate in the slot, but mediocre on the outside. And 3 young receivers, two of which are incomplete players, and one of which nobody will put on the field. We have no receivers that really scare opposing defenses, aside from the TE's and Moss occasionally getting free from press coverage and getting open downfield. I can name 30-40 receivers in the league that are better than Moss. I really don't see how anyone could put our receiving core in the top 20, and I would argue against anyone that did.

Since no player in the passing game is great, they all make each other worse. With a qb that is league average at best, a WR core in the bottom third, and possibly the worst offensive line in the league, it is very hard to put a productive passing offense together. I think it is important to remember that when evaluating the situation.

The offensive line and Campbell have their detractors, and for good reason, but it goes unnoticed too often that the receivers aren't good. They can't catch, they aren't big, the only fast ones are Moss and Thomas, and they do NOTHING well besides run. There is a lot of work to be done personnel wise on the offense.

brad7686 wrote:The offensive line and Campbell have their detractors, and for good reason, but it goes unnoticed too often that the receivers aren't good. They can't catch, they aren't big, the only fast ones are Moss and Thomas, and they do NOTHING well besides run. There is a lot of work to be done personnel wise on the offense.

Don't forget that the passing scheme itself has overall been subpar. I can't recall how many times I've seen receivers running routes close to each other, effectively double covering themselves (as the other defender can easily hop the route to cover). Stupid.

I'm amazed by those who cite Campbell's completion percentage and yardage stats as proof of his tremendous talent only to then turn right around and claim how those poor receivers can't catch .. This has been one of the most ridiculous arguments of the many excuses for Campbell. This week it's the o-line, next week it's the receivers, the next week it's the o-line again.

This is what I know ... the Redskin o-line is listed at 28th .. 3 spots ahead of the Packers, and three spots behind the Steelers. Yet, having the worst o-line in the NFL, the Packers are 3rd in scoring.

And I question the claim that the Redskin receivers are to blame for the lack of production in points. They can't throw the ball to themselves ... and I don't buy the automatic conclusion that if a receiver can get a hand on the ball, it should be caught.

Campbell, unlike good QBs, fails more often than not to deliver the ball in the most catchable position. He misses so many passes badly ... low and behind ... high and behind ... all extremely difficult balls to catch, especially with heat on them. He rarely leads his receivers properly, allowing the opportunity to maximize YAC or scoring TDs. He doesn't seem capable or accurate enough to intentionally under throw a pass when the defender establishes deep position, or put enough air under deep balls when receivers have their guys beat. These are the qualities good QBs have, and are absent in mediocre QBs. Campbell also waits to long to release the ball ... even on quick routs, giving defenders time to close and defend the pass. It's so painfully obvious that the entire organization is to blame for Campbell's continued poor play. That Collins (a serviceable but fairly average QB) could come in off the bench in 2007 and double the point production after not having played in 10 years SHOULD HAVE BEEN the only CLUE the organization needed to realize they had a major deficiency in their "franchise" QB. But we've had to suffer another 2 years of this nonsense just for the majority to finally admit that Jason Campbell may not be headed to the Hall of Fame.

I've been a fan since I was just a little kid ... and that was a LONG TIME AGO. And never has the offense looked so poor for so long. If the Redskins sign Campbell to a new deal after this year, I'll not support the team in any manner whatsoever. I already feel that Snyder should refund my NFL Sunday Ticket costs for this abomination already. I can only imagine how season ticket holders are feeling right now.

At 3-7 ... what is the point in continuing to play Campbell? There is no point. The Redskins as an organization seems totally pointless ... pun intended.

RayNAustin wrote:I'm amazed by those who cite Campbell's completion percentage and yardage stats as proof of his tremendous talent

You, my friend, are a hoot. Right Ray, we ALL said he was a "tremendous talent" and you knew better, you told us all along and nobody listened to you. Your keen insight has been unrewarded. Since you want to keep saying this tripe, why don't you go back to the challenge you dropped like an errant pass bouncing out of Rogers' hands and back it up?

RayNAustin wrote:If the Redskins sign Campbell to a new deal after this year, I'll not support the team in any manner whatsoever

As opposed to before?

I've been fighting this fight for two years. I'm not going to blame JC for all the problems that this offense has. It really is a problem with the WHOLE offense. Everyone. He has definitely not been the solution, but he's not the problem either.

I know two guys on here who KNOW for a fact that he is the only problem with this team...cough cough Ray - Cane

- I don't think Campbell is a "franchise QB"

- I have never used that phrase -- "franchise QB" -- and I think the idea is a bit of baloney created by sports TV entertainers

- No, statistics don't prove much of anything.

- Yes, I watched Campbell carefully, and saw the had had no time to pass.

- Yes, when Joe Gibbs says that the OL is the engine of the offense, I believe him.

- Yes, Snyder/Cerrato should have drafted OL the last couple of years.

- To repeat: the Redskins went into the season with no depth at OL. Compare the '80s Redskins, who had Raleigh Mackenzie to play every position, who had R.C. Thieleman, and who played the '91 season with Mark Addickes and Russ Grimm as backups. A pair of former All-Pros ready to come off the bench.

- Yes, the receivers are not Charlie Taylors. I watched Devin Thomas on one of those end-zone camera: he ran a simple route, made no fakes to get open, and, of course, the Dallas defender ran beside him all the way. Thomas shows some fight when he gets the ball, but neither Thomas nor Kelley seems able to shake defenders.

- Conclusion: the receivers are, as mentioned above, "sub-par"

- Runners can't make yardage from nothing, unless they are Larry Brown, and there is no one, on the Redskins or in the league who has the acceleration that Brown had.

Remedy:

(a) stop loading the team with high-priced free agents.

(b) build through the draft, even if it means "not" winning the SB next year. This team is not "one player away" from contending for anything (except last place in the East)

(c) say that to the fans. We will rebuild, We will lose a lot of games in the next two years, but the team will be fine after that.

(d) If the Redskins can get good draft choices for Portis, then trade. Same for ey and others.

(e) Keep Campbell. There is no one available who is better. He is big, runs well, has a strong arm, and seems to have the respect of his teammates.

(e) Review what Leonsis and McPhee did.

KazooSkinsFan wrote:You, my friend, are a hoot. Right Ray, we ALL said he was a "tremendous talent" and you knew better, you told us all along and nobody listened to you. Your keen insight has been unrewarded. Since you want to keep saying this tripe, why don't you go back to the challenge you dropped like an errant pass bouncing out of Rogers' hands and back it up?

Posted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 1:26 pm Post subject:
Gnome wrote: Are you seriously questioning the best young QB we've had on this team since . . . who? You name me a better young Redskins quarterback over the last 15 years. Name for me a better young quarterback on any team with three years or less of experience right now?

and

Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2007 12:27 pm Post subject:
fleetus wrote:
Campbell will be a brilliant QB as soon as we give him some dependable WR's.

and (this is a good one)

Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 4:30 pm Post subject:
Grampi wrote: There's no way JC stays with Skins. He's got way too much potential to go down with this sinking ship.

and

Posted: Sat Nov 10, 2007 6:51 pmCaneSkins26 wrote:
Wonderful idea. Yea lets bench our qb of the future after 8 games. So that Brunell or Collins can lead us to a Super Bowl??? Hahaha

and

Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 4:27 pm Post subject: Jason Campbell

skins2357 wrote: hats off to him. great game, good poise, bright future. he might as well hold out and demand a trade to a team who has a future

This is just a small sample of the long held claims of Jason Campbell's tremendous talent ... which include the idea that Jason is soooo good, he ought to demand a trade to a team that deserves him HAHAHAHAHA.

Oh man, there are so many of these ... you best stop bringing this bet up or I'm going to take the time out to cost you a couple hundred bucks!!!

But ... but .... but ... you said "tremendous" RAY, and he said "Brilliant" Ray ... that's not the same Ray ....

I know, save your posting ... I know the word games you always play Kazoo.

frankcal20 wrote:I've been fighting this fight for two years. I'm not going to blame JC for all the problems that this offense has. It really is a problem with the WHOLE offense. Everyone. He has definitely not been the solution, but he's not the problem either.

I know two guys on here who KNOW for a fact that he is the only problem with this team...cough cough Ray - Cane

The rest of the offense being subpar doesn't excuse the fact that JC is SERIOUSLY LACKING in talent. He's not an accurate passer, he doesn't have good pocket presence, he doesn't appear to be smart enough to read defenses properly, and he appears to completely lack the ability to lift the team and rally them for wins.

What so many don't take into consideration is that with an exception here and there, for the most part Campbell has enjoyed a solid defense that consistently keeps games within reach, as well as a reliable run game. So this idea that he's been short changed or put in a a difficult position to succeed is just crazy.

Lot's of young QBs must come in and play on teams with poor defenses, forcing the offense to play from larger deficits than has been the history with the Redskins and Jason Campbell. When you play from far behind, that makes it much more difficult on the QB because you're forced into throwing the ball a lot more playing catch up. That just hasn't been the situation for Campbell. He hasn't had to be great or even really good to be successful here ... he just needed to be proficient ... adequate ... middle of the road. He just needed to manage 17-20 points per game to have a solid winning record ... or in the case of last week .. he just needed ONE TOUCHDOWN.

Anyone can go check Campbell's stats at Auburn, and with the exception of his senior year, he was just mediocre, averaging around one TD per game played, and would not have been close to 1st round status without his fluke 2004 season.

Coincidentally, in 4 seasons at Auburn, he threw 45 TD passes. In 4 season with the Redskins, 45 TD passes.

Consistently mediocre.

This game was a very hard pill to swallow. Our Skins shutdown the Cowgirls the whole game only to lose late in the 4th Quarter.

Campbell and Cartwright played great games but it wasnt enough.

I think a mix of bad play calling and Suisham just having a really bad day hurt us.

When we couldnt take advantage of possible INTs early on defense and then when we had chances to score TDs but couldnt on offense I knew we were in trouble. It was a bad combo vs a huge rival like the Cowboys.

If we could of made it a 2 score game we win IMO. When the Cowboys had that GW drive I think most of us knew we were gonna lose.

Im a huge fan of Orakpo and I was stoked when we drafted him. The missed sack of Romo though on that TD was a play Orakpo needed to make.

Hopefully Campbell, Cartwright, and Orakpo get their revenge week 16 in Washington.

we were unlucky not to win against the Cowboys but we are a team that can only win with a lot of luck - we need to be able to determine the outcome not just hope that we get lucky

RayNAustin wrote:But ... but .... but ... you said "tremendous" RAY, and he said "Brilliant" Ray ... that's not the same Ray ....

I know, save your posting ... I know the word games you always play Kazoo.

Actually you posted two before and I agreed one met the criteria, the other clearly didn't. I showed you the quote and the criteria and you didn't reply. And BTW I accepted the one that didn't anyway.