The-Hogs.net - Washington Football Discussion, Redskins to Commanders Era

brad7686 wrote:

Californiaskin wrote:and soups thrown as many tuchdowns as tom brady, phillip rivers, and ben rothlesburger so far this season........and 1 less than kurt warner.....but he sucks apparently..and is the reason we are 1-2

the only name in there that people on here will care about is Roethlisberger, because for some reason, everyone on this board think he's the second coming. Ben does this, Ben does that, bla bla bla. He's average, but I never have anyone that agrees with me on that argument. Its because he has rings. But he rode his d to get them, so I don't know why he's considered great.

Dude, get real. Big Ben average? Give me a break. All the man does is win, with no running game and one of the worst offensive lines in football.

aswas71788 wrote:If JC plays anothr 10 years, there will still be excuses for him, he will still be improving, the Redskins will still be terrible and JC will retire as the most excused, bad QB in NFL history.

LOL. Well said

EasyMoney wrote:

brad7686 wrote:

Californiaskin wrote:and soups thrown as many tuchdowns as tom brady, phillip rivers, and ben rothlesburger so far this season........and 1 less than kurt warner.....but he sucks apparently..and is the reason we are 1-2

the only name in there that people on here will care about is Roethlisberger, because for some reason, everyone on this board think he's the second coming. Ben does this, Ben does that, bla bla bla. He's average, but I never have anyone that agrees with me on that argument. Its because he has rings. But he rode his d to get them, so I don't know why he's considered great.

When Campbell makes a drive like Ben did in the waning moments of a Super Bowl he'll get the same credit that Ben does. Ben has absolutely awesome pocket presence and make something out of nothing magic as well.

at comparing Campbell to the rest of the mentioned QB's.

Thank you. Well said. Big Ben is an awesome QB and the man wins. And you hit the nail on the head he brought his team back from behind to win the superbowl.

frankcal20 wrote:Let him get through with his 3rd year starting first.

Why so we can continue the mediocrity on offense?

brad7686 wrote:

EasyMoney wrote:

brad7686 wrote:

Californiaskin wrote:and soups thrown as many tuchdowns as tom brady, phillip rivers, and ben rothlesburger so far this season........and 1 less than kurt warner.....but he sucks apparently..and is the reason we are 1-2

the only name in there that people on here will care about is Roethlisberger, because for some reason, everyone on this board think he's the second coming. Ben does this, Ben does that, bla bla bla. He's average, but I never have anyone that agrees with me on that argument. Its because he has rings. But he rode his d to get them, so I don't know why he's considered great.

When Campbell makes a drive like Ben did in the waning moments of a Super Bowl he'll get the same credit that Ben does. Ben has absolutely awesome pocket presence and make something out of nothing magic as well.

at comparing Campbell to the rest of the mentioned QB's.

That's one drive. Roethlisberger sucks horribly for whole games while his defense allows six points, then he finally gets a magic td in the last 2 minutes. There has NEVER been a more overrated player than Ben Roethlisberger. He is average. And I know people don't agree with me, I don't care because I'm right. The stats are right. He's average.

He is not average. No, you aren't right.

cleg wrote:

markshark84 wrote:

cleg wrote:Jason is the best QB on the team and that is pretty much all that matters. He will be playing somewhere else next year while this train wreck rebuilds (again) with a new QB and coach. I hope he goes someplace and is successful because I worry that The Danny and his puppet may have ruined him.

Best QB -- three weeks ago, I would have agreed with you. Now -- not so much. I am beginning to wonder how Collins would do in there; mainly because I would like to see what happens with someone new tossing passes --- and he did lead us to the playoffs.

Playing somewhere else -- he will be playing somewhere else as a backup. He will be an afterthought in the NFL after this season. After this season, being successful for JC would be having a career like Todd Collins.

Please just stop with the Collins nonsense. Really. It is absurd. As to Jason another team will give him a chance to start without a doubt. Remember Patrick Ramsey got a chance in Denver or some other place before he became a Todd Collins.

Why should people stop with Collins? Why is it absurd? I think that what people are saying about Collins is legit. How much lower do we need to go before changes are made?

cleg wrote:

CanesSkins26 wrote:

Please just stop with the Collins nonsense. Really. It is absurd.

Is it? JC has led this team to ONLY ONE TD AGAINST A NON-PREVENT DEFENSE. How much worse could Collins possibly be?

A lot. He is a career back up and almost 40 years old.

We need to do something else because JC isn't the answer and Collins gives a better alternative

markshark84 wrote:Ok. You got me. He also moves the ball from the 50 to the 20 on their side. WHO GIVES A CRAP!!!! HE DOESN"T PUT THE BALL IN THE ENDZONE. The 50-20 of their side is like being on our side of the field. That is why I didn't make the distinction --- because it's irrelevent

Well, it's irrelevant to your point because you've already made your decision and aren't assessing the situation anymore, just advocating TC. If you were still assessing JC, then it would be highly relevant because as I already pointed out I believe twice putting it in the end zone is the hardest part. If he's not moving the ball past mid-field, then that would be a strong argument that he's pretty hopeless now that he's in his fifth season. If he's able to take it into the red zone, then #1, he's getting 3 points, not zero. And #2, he's up to the last, hardest step. There is actually hope. That doesn't prove he's better then TC, but since your mind is closed at this point to JC I'll give up that argument and show you why the point was actually relevant to my argument.

skinsfan#33 wrote:

frankcal20 wrote:I don't think anyone here is saying that he is playing GREAT but I think that some of us feel that he is playing well enough for us to win. The overall team is not - and he's a part of that team. I wouldn't mind seeing him get fired up at the lineman but we may not know the whole story like the guys really injured but better than our backups. Who knows.

Frank,
He is playing well enough for us to win if we had a D that could hold everyone to 7 points or if we had a running game that was the leagues best. But WE DON'T!

The D may improve, but not a shut down D, and frankly (no pun intended) they are pert of our offesive problems. They can't get off the field and get the ball back to the O. This Offense really hasn't had many chances because the D just can't force a punt.

Our running may improve slightly, but not anytime soon.

JC is not a good enough QB for this team to win with. Swap places with him and Pewton and the Skins are 3-0. Same with Breeze, or Rivers, or Rothisburger, or Carson Palmer, or Flaco, or Ryan, or Brady, or little Manning, or Romo, or maybe even Culter and Sanchez.

Heck he got out played by a Rookie QB in his third start (don't give me that ridiculous statement that JC's stats were better then Staffords - because they lie - Stafford was the best QB on the field!!!)

No JC is not the only problem on this team but he is the only guy we could change and get instant results. Bench him and play Collins and I guarantee we win Sunday! With JC in there I'm not too sure.

Mark Mitchell should be above D Thomas on the depth chart too, but with JC in there it wouldn't make a difference.

Excuse me but we are ranked 6th in allowed points (49). And not all of those points was allowed by the defense. What do you want a defense that holds a team to 0 points? Not going to happen. Here are the other teams before us. Broncos (16), Jets (33), Colts (45), Giants (48), Seahawks (48). That's right we rank before 13 teams that have winning records Eagles (72), Cowboys (61), 49ers (53), Packers (63), Bears (54) Falcons (53), Patriots (50), Chargers (64), Bengals (56), that's including 3 teams with a undefeated record, Vikings (57), Saints (56) Ravens (53). It clear that our problems our the offense not the defense. What more do you want from this defense? Our offense is 14-37 (38%) on 3rd down conversions. That's our problem. (Note) Giants and Seahawks have allowed 48 points. Not sure whats with the smiley faces. I have tried to edit it 5 times.

http://nfl.fanhouse.com/2009/09/29/eagles-release-jeff-garcia-bring-back-jeremiah-trotter/

Garcia was released by the Eagles today.

KazooSkinsFan wrote:

markshark84 wrote:Ok. You got me. He also moves the ball from the 50 to the 20 on their side. WHO GIVES A CRAP!!!! HE DOESN"T PUT THE BALL IN THE ENDZONE. The 50-20 of their side is like being on our side of the field. That is why I didn't make the distinction --- because it's irrelevent

Well, it's irrelevant to your point because you've already made your decision and aren't assessing the situation anymore, just advocating TC. If you were still assessing JC, then it would be highly relevant because as I already pointed out I believe twice putting it in the end zone is the hardest part. If he's not moving the ball past mid-field, then that would be a strong argument that he's pretty hopeless now that he's in his fifth season. If he's able to take it into the red zone, then #1, he's getting 3 points, not zero. And #2, he's up to the last, hardest step. There is actually hope. That doesn't prove he's better then TC, but since your mind is closed at this point to JC I'll give up that argument and show you why the point was actually relevant to my argument.

I am far from merely advocating TC. I didn't make the TC decision until this thread that I thought TC should get a shot.

Now, my CONSISTENT statements in this thread have been the inabilty of JC to SCORE TDs. Scoring TDs doesn't mean getting the ball into the redzone. And it is IRRELEVENT that he can get it there. It is relevent that he converts -- which as we all know, he doesn't.

And you are, to a degree, correct in that the redzone is the most difficult part of the field to gain yardage and score TDs -- but, JC has not been capable of this. So what is your arguement --- is it that JC cannot convert points in the most difficult part of the field? That he cannot step up his game when the going gets tough? How does this help the arguement that JC is capable of scoring points? AND, I couldn't care less about field goals. They don't typically win games.

JC has consistently been horrible in the redzone and has consistently lacked the ability to put up large point totals. So the fact that he gets to "the hardest step" and FAILS is IRRELEVENT. The only thing that is relevent is scoring TDs.

Close only counts in horse-shoes and handgirnades. Not in football.

markshark84 wrote:And you are, to a degree, correct in that the redzone is the most difficult part of the field to gain yardage and score TDs -- but, JC has not been capable of this. So what is your arguement --- is it that JC cannot convert points in the most difficult part of the field? That he cannot step up his game when the going gets tough?

Sorry about the thud, it was my head hitting the desk in boredom because I keep answering this question and you keep missing it. And again, I am not particularly pro-JC, I am only arguing he's a better shot then a career backup.

Read it again, I'll type slower this time. If you disagree, fine, but stop missing it.

Being the hardest part of the field means that it's the last step... Your argument is steady state, that quarterbacks come into the league and they are like a lamp, they work or they don't. That isn't how it works, they progress. If JC can move the ball INTO the Red Zone, scoring TDs is the NEXT step. I am hoping he can take that step and only arguing that if he does he's better then TC, not Tom Brady.

Also, I think Zorn is a big reason we haven't scored TDs this year, at least so far, and putting in TC isn't going to improve the red zone playcalling. It's also not going to solve the run blocking, which affects the passing game since they can dedicate more to coverage.

Starting TC now is not a solution, it's folding.

I'm sorry but putting your best players on the field is not folding.
Collins is now a career back up and JC is soon to follow. At least TC has a winning record as a starting QB for this team!

Hooligan wrote:http://nfl.fanhouse.com/2009/09/29/eagles-release-jeff-garcia-bring-back-jeremiah-trotter/

Garcia was released by the Eagles today.

I have NO FREAKING doubt that he would be better. He might even save a HC behind. But this is a smart move for the current FO. It will NOT happen.

Redskin in Canada wrote:

Hooligan wrote:http://nfl.fanhouse.com/2009/09/29/eagles-release-jeff-garcia-bring-back-jeremiah-trotter/

Garcia was released by the Eagles today.

I have NO FREAKING doubt that he would be better. He might even save a HC behind. But this is a smart move for the current FO. It will NOT happen.

no way garcia could come in here right now and play better than soup or todd collins.........this has gotten out of hand.....the stats show that soups putting up good numbers this year and really the only area that he has not played well in is in td passes, and that many quarterbacks in the league who are "better" than soup have thrown around the same number of td passes......

The quarterback is not the problem, dudes playing better than last year and to think that jeff fricken garcia could come in here, learn the offense, develop a rapport with the recievers et all is proposterous

Redskin in Canada wrote:

Hooligan wrote:http://nfl.fanhouse.com/2009/09/29/eagles-release-jeff-garcia-bring-back-jeremiah-trotter/

Garcia was released by the Eagles today.

I have NO FREAKING doubt that he would be better. He might even save a HC behind. But this is a smart move for the current FO. It will NOT happen.

I don't want this mainly because if Garcia came in, we would win more games and couldn't get Tebow or McCoy in next years draft.

Even the idiots (Snyder and Vinny) would draft either one of these two QBs with a top 5 pick.

markshark84 wrote:

KazooSkinsFan wrote:

markshark84 wrote:Ok. You got me. He also moves the ball from the 50 to the 20 on their side. WHO GIVES A CRAP!!!! HE DOESN"T PUT THE BALL IN THE ENDZONE. The 50-20 of their side is like being on our side of the field. That is why I didn't make the distinction --- because it's irrelevent

Well, it's irrelevant to your point because you've already made your decision and aren't assessing the situation anymore, just advocating TC. If you were still assessing JC, then it would be highly relevant because as I already pointed out I believe twice putting it in the end zone is the hardest part. If he's not moving the ball past mid-field, then that would be a strong argument that he's pretty hopeless now that he's in his fifth season. If he's able to take it into the red zone, then #1, he's getting 3 points, not zero. And #2, he's up to the last, hardest step. There is actually hope. That doesn't prove he's better then TC, but since your mind is closed at this point to JC I'll give up that argument and show you why the point was actually relevant to my argument.

I am far from merely advocating TC. I didn't make the TC decision until this thread that I thought TC should get a shot.

Now, my CONSISTENT statements in this thread have been the inabilty of JC to SCORE TDs. Scoring TDs doesn't mean getting the ball into the redzone. And it is IRRELEVENT that he can get it there. It is relevent that he converts -- which as we all know, he doesn't.

And you are, to a degree, correct in that the redzone is the most difficult part of the field to gain yardage and score TDs -- but, JC has not been capable of this. So what is your arguement --- is it that JC cannot convert points in the most difficult part of the field? That he cannot step up his game when the going gets tough? How does this help the arguement that JC is capable of scoring points? AND, I couldn't care less about field goals. They don't typically win games.

JC has consistently been horrible in the redzone and has consistently lacked the ability to put up large point totals. So the fact that he gets to "the hardest step" and FAILS is IRRELEVENT. The only thing that is relevent is scoring TDs.

Close only counts in horse-shoes and handgirnades. Not in football.

i think portis has had more opportunities to score redzone than campbell....i can think of 2 chances from 1 yard (might i add he took the wrong hole against the rams, the score was there if hed stuck to his blockers) and another passing attempt)
no doubt dude needs to get it in the endzone......but relatively speaking hes playing pretty well this year.......acording to statistics and basing them on previous seasons and comparing them to other qbs starting on other teams

Californiaskin wrote:i think portis has had more opportunities to score redzone than campbell....i can think of 2 chances from 1 yard (might i add he took the wrong hole against the rams, the score was there if hed stuck to his blockers) and another passing attempt)
no doubt dude needs to get it in the endzone......but relatively speaking hes playing pretty well this year.......acording to statistics and basing them on previous seasons and comparing them to other qbs starting on other teams

This should be a sticky at the top of every page in this thread.

RedskinsFreak wrote:Well, I thought I'd give it a shot and figure out JC's non-prevent numbers. For the purpose of these calculations, I defined "prevent time" as:

1) After the Giants ran that time-eating drive and kicked the FG to take a 23-10 lead

and

2) After the Lions scored their early-4Q TD to take a 19-7 lead.

In those two "prevent" time periods, JC went:

17-for-21, 176 yards, 2 TD, 0 INT = 133.3 rating

Which leaves this as his non-prevent performance:

52-for-81, 617 yards, 1 TD, 2 INT = 81.1 rating

Completely average. No other way to put it.

Thanks RedskinsFreak for doing the leg work. I didn't have the time (at the time) to go through every game. FYI, CaliSkin the numbers for every game (quarters 1-3 and then quarter 4) paint the same picture.

I don't claim to be the greatest football mind of all time. I played the game, I've watched it for over 20 years and I feel like I can point out good quarterbacking when I see it. What I see from Campbell isn't good quarterbacking. It really makes me question football intellect when someone brings up his numbers from the box score.

Be honest, did you even watch the game or just check the box? I'm absolutely baffled that anyone watching him play would call what he's doing "good".

If it gets any worse, I'm going to start recording the games and show the apologists why I don't think he's getting it done.

EasyMoney wrote:

Californiaskin wrote:i think portis has had more opportunities to score redzone than campbell....i can think of 2 chances from 1 yard (might i add he took the wrong hole against the rams, the score was there if hed stuck to his blockers) and another passing attempt)
no doubt dude needs to get it in the endzone......but relatively speaking hes playing pretty well this year.......acording to statistics and basing them on previous seasons and comparing them to other qbs starting on other teams

This should be a sticky at the top of every page in this thread.

RedskinsFreak wrote:Well, I thought I'd give it a shot and figure out JC's non-prevent numbers. For the purpose of these calculations, I defined "prevent time" as:

1) After the Giants ran that time-eating drive and kicked the FG to take a 23-10 lead

and

2) After the Lions scored their early-4Q TD to take a 19-7 lead.

In those two "prevent" time periods, JC went:

17-for-21, 176 yards, 2 TD, 0 INT = 133.3 rating

Which leaves this as his non-prevent performance:

52-for-81, 617 yards, 1 TD, 2 INT = 81.1 rating

Completely average. No other way to put it.

Thanks RedskinsFreak for doing the leg work. I didn't have the time (at the time) to go through every game. FYI, CaliSkin the numbers for every game (quarters 1-3 and then quarter 4) paint the same picture.

I don't claim to be the greatest football mind of all time. I played the game, I've watched it for over 20 years and I feel like I can point out good quarterbacking when I see it. What I see from Campbell isn't good quarterbacking. It really makes me question football intellect when someone brings up his numbers from the box score.

Be honest, did you even watch the game or just check the box? I'm absolutely baffled that anyone watching him play would call what he's doing "good".

If it gets any worse, I'm going to start recording the games and show the apologists why I don't think he's getting it done.

watched every snap/every game.....played tons o ball pop warner/high school, D2 college........seen good quarterbacking..........just gonna have to disagree with you bud......i think this team needs help but unlike the most of those here I'm just not seeing it at qb so much

Californiaskin wrote:played tons o ball pop warner/high school, D2 college........seen good quarterbacking..........

Gonna be blunt here.

At those levels, no. You didn't see any good quarterbacking.

What I find curious is that you started this thread by saying that the stats show that JC is a good quarterback.

Then you got stats that debunk that theory every which way to next Tuesday and you change your tune to what you've seen.

At best, I'll give you that he might not be a good quarterback in the context of what Zorn is asking him to do.

Got a big-arm quarterback not running a big-arm offense. You can say his O-line isn't capable of protecting him long enough to run those big vertical passing plays. Fair enough. But it doesn't take into account that he's:

a) slow to read pre-snap defenses

b) slow to recognize when/where his receivers are going to break open

c) slow to deliver the ball in rhythm and to a point where his guy can catch it

RedskinsFreak wrote:

Californiaskin wrote:played tons o ball pop warner/high school, D2 college........seen good quarterbacking..........

Gonna be blunt here.

At those levels, no. You didn't see any good quarterbacking.

What I find curious is that you started this thread by saying that the stats show that JC is a good quarterback.

Then you got stats that debunk that theory every which way to next Tuesday and you change your tune to what you've seen.

At best, I'll give you that he might not be a good quarterback in the context of what Zorn is asking him to do.

Got a big-arm quarterback not running a big-arm offense. You can say his O-line isn't capable of protecting him long enough to run those big vertical passing plays. Fair enough. But it doesn't take into account that he's:

a) slow to read pre-snap defenses

b) slow to recognize when/where his receivers are going to break open

c) slow to deliver the ball in rhythm and to a point where his guy can catch it

gonna be blunt here
guess its all in how you interpret the stats
identifying level of general football background in response to ole easy moneys assertations that he played the game so no tune changing
......and what level of ball were you playin there freak?

Californiaskin wrote:watched every snap/every game.....played tons o ball pop warner/high school, D2 college........seen good quarterbacking..........just gonna have to disagree with you bud......i think this team needs help but unlike the most of those here I'm just not seeing it at qb so much

Thats fair. The entire team is not playing well. I think even the anti-Campbell group can agree its not JUST him. The running game is underperforming. The defense is severely underperforming. I can't blame him for that.

What I'm talking about specifically is Jason Campbell the passer of the football. I wont get into his leadership qualities and the role of a QB on a football team, just when he throws the ball.

I see the following from Jason on a consistent basis:

Rarely releases the ball at the end of his drop on medium to long range passes. Either doesn't have confidence in himself or his receivers. If he could read a defense and knows the playbook by heart, this shouldn't be an issue.

Always feels the need to create extra time in the pocket. Either doesn't trust his line (who I feel is giving him a good pocket, not great, but good), doesn't trust his receivers to run precise routes, or... doesn't trust himself.

I never get the sense that he knows exactly what is coming. I rarely see him check to a play he knows will work and exploit the defense. Yes, he's done it over the course of his career, but this needs to happen several times per game. A rare occurance for him.

No touch, no rainbow accuracy, throws the ball harder than he has to making it tougher on his receivers. Questionable accuracy in general.

A great reciever makes a quarterback look good, in order for a great receiver to be great, he needs to catch the ball in space or in stride. Rare occurance. The majority of his passes are thrown to either stop routes or when a receiver has finished his break and tries to find a seam in a zone. Rarely gets it to his recievers coming out of their break. Doesn't play with an internal clock, always needs a huge pocket to throw from, huge lane to pass through and wide open receiver to make a catch.

Apparently you see something different. What about Campbell leads you to believe he's a good quarterback?

#9 nfl total yards, #5 completion %, #9 passer rating...........at season start if ANY of you guys thought hed have #s like that youd have thought wed be 3-0

Californiaskin wrote:#9 nfl total yards, #5 completion %, #9 passer rating...........at season start if ANY of you guys thought hed have #s like that youd have thought wed be 3-0

Seriously? You respond with that? You've got nothing but stats? Thats what I thought...

EasyMoney wrote:

Californiaskin wrote:#9 nfl total yards, #5 completion %, #9 passer rating...........at season start if ANY of you guys thought hed have #s like that youd have thought wed be 3-0

Seriously? You respond with that? You've got nothing but stats? Thats what I thought...

yep its easymoney for me!