Page 5 of 8
Posted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 1:36 pm
by KazooSkinsFan
Speaking of Rypien, yes, he was a so so QB and he had all day to do it, but they guy could throw a deep ball
Posted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 1:50 pm
by SnyderSucks
CanesSkins26 wrote:SnyderSucks wrote:Countertrey wrote:I won't be comfortable until I see Campbell take over a game in the 4th quarter. I want to see him put the team on his shoulders, and, though force of will, move the team to a winning score with the clock running out. It is then that he will have become a quarterback.
Otherwise, he will remain just a reasonably good technician, with talent and some skills, but no heart.
The list of QB's in the game who can do that is very short. QB's who can do that are hall of fame caliber QB's. John Elway is still remembered for one drive 20 years ago. I think Campbell is good enough to win with given a proper supporting cast, but will he suddenly transform a la Drew Brees? Probably not. As often as a Peyton Manning or Dan Marino wins a super bowl, so does a Mark Rypien or Eli Manning.
There's plenty of qb's in the NFL that have the ability to do just that....Brady, Peyton, Big Ben, Warner, Brees, Rivers, McNabb, etc.
So should every team that doesn't have a pro bowler dump their QB until they find one? That can take a long time. Wouldn't the team have been better off keeping a Trent Green or Brad Johnson and getting solid if unspectacular production from the QB? Campbell has his issues, but if we dump him for a draft pick, are we more likely to get a Shuler/Ramsey type than a Tom Brady? Obviously, if they could trade for Brees, they should do it, but dumping a guy for an unproven replacement fails more than it suceeds.
Posted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 2:16 pm
by VetSkinsFan
Well here's my bottom line. He shows quantifiable proof in the winning percentage and statistics or he's a FA. I realize that we want to get SOMETHING for him, but I think we've let that ship sail. I hope he does flourish in the 2nd year of this system. I'm not looking for Brady 2007 numbers, but I'm not looking for 20+ ranking either.
Posted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 2:18 pm
by KazooSkinsFan
SnyderSucks wrote:So should every team that doesn't have a pro bowler dump their QB until they find one?
What a pointless question. That is so not the discussion. First of all almost everyone is saying JC should start this year, at least at the start of the season. Second of all a lot of us stuck with him to give him a real chance. I was defending him until...NOW...for example. And like the others I still want him to start, I'm just saying I'm near the end of my chances without getting more in return in performance then we've been getting from him.
Your question isn't a question, it's an agenda. If you want to argue that JC could be the answer argue that, don't play games with contrived questions that miss the discussion.
Posted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 2:31 pm
by SnyderSucks
KazooSkinsFan wrote:SnyderSucks wrote:So should every team that doesn't have a pro bowler dump their QB until they find one?
What a pointless question. That is so not the discussion. First of all almost everyone is saying JC should start this year, at least at the start of the season. Second of all a lot of us stuck with him to give him a real chance. I was defending him until...NOW...for example. And like the others I still want him to start, I'm just saying I'm near the end of my chances without getting more in return in performance then we've been getting from him.
Your question isn't a question, it's an agenda. If you want to argue that JC could be the answer argue that, don't play games with contrived questions that miss the discussion.
I don't think it is pointless at all. Campbell has not played at a pro bowl level, but he hasn't been a disaster. You say you are near the end of your chances without getting more in return. I take that to mean you would advocate replacing him after the season if he isn't substantially better. My point is that even if he's no better this year than last, he's still a middle of the pack NFL QB. If they dump him for a draft pick, the odds are pretty high that the draft pick is substantially worse than Campbell, and only marginal that he would be substantially better.
Posted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 2:38 pm
by VetSkinsFan
You can't settle for the mediocrity that we currently have. We will not go to the big show with the mediocrity we currently have been shown. Either the offense as a unit is improved or the offense as a unit fails in the task of making it to the big game. JC has been one of those factors that have not been up to par. I believe in a learning curve, but there are fundemental improvements that are not as of yet happening in my eyes. He improves or he moves on to greener pastures. I hope he improves.
Posted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 2:52 pm
by KazooSkinsFan
SnyderSucks wrote:My point is that even if he's no better this year than last, he's still a middle of the pack NFL QB
If he plays like last year then no, he is not middle of the pack. He sucked. The theory was that he had potential which had been stunted by the endless changes in schemes and coaches. But if he plays like last year then no, we will not have a middle of the pack quarterback, we have a quarterback who's not going to win games for us and that's not going to get us to the playoffs very often or very far if we do. We don't need Elway, but we need a serviceable QB and last year he just wasn't.
SnyderSucks wrote:If they dump him for a draft pick, the odds are pretty high that the draft pick is substantially worse than Campbell, and only marginal that he would be substantially better.
Well if you read the entire discussion, then the assumption was that since he's at the end of his rookie contract we will not be able to just "keep" him. He will want a lot more money and we won't be willing to pay it. That's actually why we are having the discussion now. That is actually CENTRAL to the discussion.
Now Freak argued we will be able to just keep him, but that is based on speculation on changes in the collective bargaining agreement being terminated by the owners and if that happens I think we'd agree the question would be reassessed.
Anyway, I don't agree with you, but at least this is a better argument then oh, if he's not pro bowler every year you want to dump him.
Posted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 3:26 pm
by SnyderSucks
KazooSkinsFan wrote:SnyderSucks wrote:My point is that even if he's no better this year than last, he's still a middle of the pack NFL QB
If he plays like last year then no, he is not middle of the pack. He sucked. The theory was that he had potential which had been stunted by the endless changes in schemes and coaches. But if he plays like last year then no, we will not have a middle of the pack quarterback, we have a quarterback who's not going to win games for us and that's not going to get us to the playoffs very often or very far if we do. We don't need Elway, but we need a serviceable QB and last year he just wasn't.
SnyderSucks wrote:If they dump him for a draft pick, the odds are pretty high that the draft pick is substantially worse than Campbell, and only marginal that he would be substantially better.
Well if you read the entire discussion, then the assumption was that since he's at the end of his rookie contract we will not be able to just "keep" him. He will want a lot more money and we won't be willing to pay it. That's actually why we are having the discussion now. That is actually CENTRAL to the discussion.
Now Freak argued we will be able to just keep him, but that is based on speculation on changes in the collective bargaining agreement being terminated by the owners and if that happens I think we'd agree the question would be reassessed.
Anyway, I don't agree with you, but at least this is a better argument then oh, if he's not pro bowler every year you want to dump him.
He was very much middle of the pack last year. He was in the teens in most categories. He threw the fewest int's of anyone that played the whole season. He had a better QB rating than 3 of the playoff QB's, including Roethlisberger. He hasn't been a top QB, but please don't pretend that Campbell is terrible, because it is simply untrue.
Posted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 3:30 pm
by Countertrey
I'm not claiming that he is terrible... just that his resume is missing a critical component.
I'd love for him to release the Dragon... as he says is his goal...
Please.
Even if it's just a little dragon...
roar...
I mean... just get pissed off, once in a while, Jason... yell at somebody when they screw up. Scream at the ref. DEMAND crisp routes.
Show a sense of urgency when the clock is at 1:30 and you need a score.
That does not require HOF credentials... just a real desire to win.
Posted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 3:32 pm
by VetSkinsFan
Countertrey wrote:I'm not claiming that he is terrible... just that his resume is missing a critical component.
I'd love for him to release the Dragon... as he says is his goal...
Please.
Even if it's just a little dragon...
roar...
hahhaha
Posted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 3:59 pm
by SnyderSucks
Countertrey wrote:
roar...
Posted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 4:03 pm
by KazooSkinsFan
SnyderSucks wrote:He was very much middle of the pack last year. He was in the teens in most categories. He threw the fewest int's of anyone that played the whole season. He had a better QB rating than 3 of the playoff QB's, including Roethlisberger. He hasn't been a top QB, but please don't pretend that Campbell is terrible, because it is simply untrue.
It's deja vu all over again. Yes, with our D he got chances to pad his stats with endless opportunities between the 20s. He did throw the ball away and either take a sack or an incompletion instead of an int.
But he was horrible near the end zone and his lack of a reliable deep ball really allowed D's to keep our O in front of them and shut us down as we approached the red zone completely. We couldn't sustain drives because so many of his passes were in the dirt in front of open receivers. Our running game struggled, again particularly as we approached the Red Zone because he was such a long shot to complete a pass at that point and receivers near the sidelines were led out of bounds by his passes when there was open space.
Dude, he wasn't good. Eventually no matter how many reasons you can come up with for that it's not enough and he needs to play better. That point is now.
Posted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 4:31 pm
by El Mexican
Comparing Campbell to Rypien is nonsense.
Big number 11 spent two years on IR and performed pretty well during the 9 games he played in his first season (1988). The following year, he went to the Probowl in his first season as a starter (22 tds, 13 ints, 3700 yards and a 13.4 yard-per-completion-average). He played during 10 games in 1990 but still had respectable numbers. And them there's the magical 1991 season, which I don't have bore you with.
So yeah, right now Campbell's not even close to Rypien. I'm starting to feel the same as some of you guys. Even though Rypien had limited ability, he mustered enough will to win in this league. He had a great deep ball, but his limitations outnumbered his abilities. Campbell has shown little will and not enough ability.
Posted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 6:40 pm
by SnyderSucks
KazooSkinsFan wrote:SnyderSucks wrote:He was very much middle of the pack last year. He was in the teens in most categories. He threw the fewest int's of anyone that played the whole season. He had a better QB rating than 3 of the playoff QB's, including Roethlisberger. He hasn't been a top QB, but please don't pretend that Campbell is terrible, because it is simply untrue.
It's deja vu all over again. Yes, with our D he got chances to pad his stats with endless opportunities between the 20s. He did throw the ball away and either take a sack or an incompletion instead of an int.
But he was horrible near the end zone and his lack of a reliable deep ball really allowed D's to keep our O in front of them and shut us down as we approached the red zone completely. We couldn't sustain drives because so many of his passes were in the dirt in front of open receivers. Our running game struggled, again particularly as we approached the Red Zone because he was such a long shot to complete a pass at that point and receivers near the sidelines were led out of bounds by his passes when there was open space.
Dude, he wasn't good. Eventually no matter how many reasons you can come up with for that it's not enough and he needs to play better. That point is now.
The biggest problem Campbell caused the offense last season was that the gameplan was restricted because he didn't know the whole playbook.
I remember campbell playing pretty well the first half of the season. Then the O-line problems kicked in, Portis got hurt, and other teams figured out there was no number 2 receiver. Peyton Manning could not have won a playoff game with the team the second half of the year. The O-line, the lack of receivers, and Portis's health were all much bigger problems than Campbell last year.
I agree that he needs to play better, but he doesn't play in a vacuum. Portis needs to play better than he played the second half of the season, but pointing out that his production dip was influenced by the poor play of the O-line isn't making excuses, it's facing reality. If you want to see a bad QB, go watch the footage of Jeff George before he lost his job to Tony Banks.
Posted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 11:46 pm
by Champsturf
SnyderSucks wrote:Did you see Brady last night? 4-8? Are you kidding me? Clearly he has lost the ability to play. He was completely ineffective all of last season. I don't want to hear any excuses about a knee injury. He looked slow and indecisive. If Belicheat says that Brady is looking great in practice, clearly he is lying. When are they going to come to their senses and start playing Hoyer? Hoyer has looked fantastic against the third team defense in preseason - he's obviously the second coming of Joe Montana.
When has Campbell EVER shown that he was even worthy of holding Brady's jock? C'mon man...get real.
Posted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 11:48 pm
by Champsturf
SnyderSucks wrote:SkinsJock wrote:I agree that we should make the playoffs with what should be a very good defense and even a slightly improved offense - my concern is that we have not seen very much from Campbell over the past 2 years that would indicate that he can help the offense be a better scoring offense.
Some have pointed out the point differential last year as not being that great - IMHO that is mostly because the teams we lost to did not need to score any more points because we were not very effective putting points on the board
I hope that Campbell can help this be more effective and he's certainly going to get the chance but I just am concerned with our QB options this year
Nobody's calling Campbell perfect, but of the list of problems with the offense last year, he's no where near the top. Despite all the gnashing of teeth here, Campbell's numbers were as good or better than Favre, Roethlisberger, Collins, and Flacco last season. Get improved play from the O-line, a real starting #2 receiver, and
a healthy season from Portis and the offense will be much improved. And a second season in the offense does make a difference, and a third makes even a larger difference. That's not my opinion, but the opinion of people like Donovan McNabb and Andy Reid, who know a little about the WCO.
Maybe Portis could stay healthy if he wasn't the ONLY offense...
Posted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 11:50 pm
by Champsturf
Countertrey wrote:As often as a Peyton Manning or Dan Marino wins a super bowl, so does a Mark Rypien or Eli Manning.
The point is, both Mark Rypien AND Eli Manning have demonstrated on multiple occasions that they could do exactly what I stated... put the team on their shoulders, and through the force of thier will, move the team.
In situations where the clock is running out, both of them demonstrated the ability to understand the importance of finding the open man WHO IS BEYOND THE FIRST DOWN MARKER. It is critical to understand that, when you are at 3rd and 10, a dump off to the running back who is STANDING (not running) 8 yards short of the first down IS NOT the correct choice. They did not always succeed... but they often did... the difference is, they took the chance. They gambled. A left handed back hand pass when cornered by a DE? That's a gamble. Force of will, baby.
I have NEVER seen Jason roll the dice.Sometimes, when the game is on the line, the quarterback must make something happen. If Rypien could do it, why not Campbell? Heck, Billy Kilmer did it plenty of times, and he had almost NO talent. He was pure force of will. YA Tittle. Joe Kapp. Craig Morton. Terry Bradshaw. Kenny Stabler. Even Jim Zorn!!! These were not gunslingers... they were brawlers. Every one of them was a marginal talent. Every one of them was tough as nails... and every one of them won games because they wanted it.
Just beatiful...
Posted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 11:51 pm
by Champsturf
SnyderSucks wrote:Countertrey wrote:I won't be comfortable until I see Campbell take over a game in the 4th quarter. I want to see him put the team on his shoulders, and, though force of will, move the team to a winning score with the clock running out. It is then that he will have become a quarterback.
Otherwise, he will remain just a reasonably good technician, with talent and some skills, but no heart.
The list of QB's in the game who can do that is very short. QB's who can do that are hall of fame caliber QB's. John Elway is still remembered for one drive 20 years ago. I think Campbell is good enough to win with given a proper supporting cast, but will he suddenly transform a la Drew Brees? Probably not. As often as a Peyton Manning or Dan Marino wins a super bowl, so does a Mark Rypien or Eli Manning.
How often does a Dan Marino win a Super Bowl?
Posted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 11:53 pm
by Champsturf
Deadskins wrote:To be fair, he did do it once, against New Orleans last year. But even that throw was not that great, and Moss had to slow up and catch it on his hip.
Agreed. He did it ONCE. I also agree about the pass to Moss. What you failed to mention was that New Orleans wasn't exactly known for their strong D...
Posted: Sat Aug 22, 2009 3:49 am
by brad7686
KazooSkinsFan wrote:SnyderSucks wrote:He was very much middle of the pack last year. He was in the teens in most categories. He threw the fewest int's of anyone that played the whole season. He had a better QB rating than 3 of the playoff QB's, including Roethlisberger. He hasn't been a top QB, but please don't pretend that Campbell is terrible, because it is simply untrue.
It's deja vu all over again. Yes, with our D he got chances to pad his stats with endless opportunities between the 20s. He did throw the ball away and either take a sack or an incompletion instead of an int.
But he was horrible near the end zone and his lack of a reliable deep ball really allowed D's to keep our O in front of them and shut us down as we approached the red zone completely. We couldn't sustain drives because so many of his passes were in the dirt in front of open receivers. Our running game struggled, again particularly as we approached the Red Zone because he was such a long shot to complete a pass at that point and receivers near the sidelines were led out of bounds by his passes when there was open space.
Dude, he wasn't good. Eventually no matter how many reasons you can come up with for that it's not enough and he needs to play better. That point is now.
The team does not succeed in the red zone, and its a lot more than just Campbell. Campbell's problems show up all over the field, its not like he gets worse in the red zone. The team as a whole gets worse in the red zone because they don't have the tools to succeed there. Everyone knows they want to run, so Portis has no shot.
ey is the only red zone receiving threat, teams know this, so he has no shot. Moss and El are very easily coverable in tight spaces because they are weak and short. The best strategies the team has to succeed more in the red zone is to get Thomas and Kelly on the field, and to keep teams guessing about what plays will be called. It would be nice to have a better O-line as well.
Posted: Sat Aug 22, 2009 7:48 am
by Redskin in Canada
brad7686 wrote:The best strategies the team has to succeed more in the red zone is to get Thomas and Kelly on the field, and to keep teams guessing about what plays will be called. It would be nice to have a better O-line as well.
It would be nice if they began to deliver on the expectations as Draft picks. Hopefully they can catch and stay healthy. But somebody needs to deliver the ball AND the OL needs to give time.
Somehow it sounds as too many essential requirements to me.
Posted: Sat Aug 22, 2009 11:13 am
by SnyderSucks
Champsturf wrote:SnyderSucks wrote:Did you see Brady last night? 4-8? Are you kidding me? Clearly he has lost the ability to play. He was completely ineffective all of last season. I don't want to hear any excuses about a knee injury. He looked slow and indecisive. If Belicheat says that Brady is looking great in practice, clearly he is lying. When are they going to come to their senses and start playing Hoyer? Hoyer has looked fantastic against the third team defense in preseason - he's obviously the second coming of Joe Montana.
When has Campbell EVER shown that he was even worthy of holding Brady's jock? C'mon man...get real.
Are you kidding? This was a joke. I was poking fun at people overreacting to Campbells 6 pass performance last week.
Posted: Sat Aug 22, 2009 11:37 am
by Irn-Bru
CanesSkins26 wrote:SnyderSucks wrote:Countertrey wrote:I won't be comfortable until I see Campbell take over a game in the 4th quarter. I want to see him put the team on his shoulders, and, though force of will, move the team to a winning score with the clock running out. It is then that he will have become a quarterback.
Otherwise, he will remain just a reasonably good technician, with talent and some skills, but no heart.
The list of QB's in the game who can do that is very short. QB's who can do that are hall of fame caliber QB's. John Elway is still remembered for one drive 20 years ago. I think Campbell is good enough to win with given a proper supporting cast, but will he suddenly transform a la Drew Brees? Probably not. As often as a Peyton Manning or Dan Marino wins a super bowl, so does a Mark Rypien or Eli Manning.
There's plenty of qb's in the NFL that have the ability to do just that....Brady, Peyton, Big Ben, Warner, Brees, Rivers, McNabb, etc.
Palmer, Collins, Favre, Delhomme, Bulger, (Eli) Manning, Romo (hate to admit it). . .there are many QBs who have show themselves
at least capable of taking the game on their shoulders, even if they don't do it all the time. I don't think Campbell has shown himself capable of it, yet.
Posted: Sat Aug 22, 2009 11:43 am
by Champsturf
SnyderSucks wrote:Champsturf wrote:SnyderSucks wrote:Did you see Brady last night? 4-8? Are you kidding me? Clearly he has lost the ability to play. He was completely ineffective all of last season. I don't want to hear any excuses about a knee injury. He looked slow and indecisive. If Belicheat says that Brady is looking great in practice, clearly he is lying. When are they going to come to their senses and start playing Hoyer? Hoyer has looked fantastic against the third team defense in preseason - he's obviously the second coming of Joe Montana.
When has Campbell EVER shown that he was even worthy of holding Brady's jock? C'mon man...get real.
Are you kidding? This was a joke. I was poking fun at people overreacting to Campbells 6 pass performance last week.
Really? I knew that you were joking. You did it in a manner that you were comparing Brady and Campbell.
Posted: Sat Aug 22, 2009 12:47 pm
by SnyderSucks
Champsturf wrote:SnyderSucks wrote:Champsturf wrote:SnyderSucks wrote:Did you see Brady last night? 4-8? Are you kidding me? Clearly he has lost the ability to play. He was completely ineffective all of last season. I don't want to hear any excuses about a knee injury. He looked slow and indecisive. If Belicheat says that Brady is looking great in practice, clearly he is lying. When are they going to come to their senses and start playing Hoyer? Hoyer has looked fantastic against the third team defense in preseason - he's obviously the second coming of Joe Montana.
When has Campbell EVER shown that he was even worthy of holding Brady's jock? C'mon man...get real.
Are you kidding? This was a joke. I was poking fun at people overreacting to Campbells 6 pass performance last week.
Really? I knew that you were joking. You did it in a manner that you were comparing Brady and Campbell.
The only comparison being made was the number of pass attempts. 6 or 8 passes in a preseason game with multiple starters not playing isn't enough judge anything. If you attempted to judge Brady on 4-8 with a terribly thrown interception, you would obviously be making a judgement without enough evidence. That's also true for attempting to judge how Campbell will play
this season based on 6 attempts in his game, as some on this thread were doing. I can't judge yet how he will play this season, and neither can anyone else.