The-Hogs.net - Washington Football Discussion, Redskins to Commanders Era

SkinsFreak wrote:By the way... apologist?

Classic. OH MY GOD... a sports fan is actually... I don't know... supporting his team?!?!?!? Oh my God, how unorthodox is that?

PulpExposure wrote:

SkinsFreak wrote:

El Mexican wrote:If last years draft serves as an example of what is to come when Vinny is the official GM, then we are in deep trouble.

Save for Horton, the outlook right now is bleak.

Yeah, we're in deeeeeeeep trouble...

QFL

Quoted for LAUGHTER!

Ageed, that's a totally laughable post. Surprise surprise; the top 3 picks didn't contribute much last year...well that's because 2 of them were WRs (who normally don't contribute much during year 1, AND both were both injured during training camp and thus, fell way behind) and a TE..who was not going to get significant playing time as a rookie when there's a Pro Bowl TE in front of him.

SKY IS FALLING.

DEHog wrote:

SkinsFreak wrote:DE, I understand your point and agree to an extent. The coaching turnover in Snyder's early years was difficult. I also believe the team will benefit immensely from stability and continuity, especially at the HC position. I sincerely hope Zorn gets a chance, and in my opinion, that should be longer than two

Thanks...and I couldn't agree more...I want DS to let Zorn coach out his contract. I also think that will be a good time to look at Vinny, while I find it laughable to try and call last year's draft picks a bust...In a league where the average career of a player last less than 4 years I think three years is a fair time frame to judge last year's draft...if they haven't contributed anything buy then the chances of them doing so are greatly reduced. That said I would like to see DS address our FO before he addresses our next HC…Here’s to hoping neither is necessary!

Redskin in Canada wrote:Sorry, I admit to not understand that definition.

Redskin in Canada wrote:Every argument must turn into an APOLOGY

SkinsJock wrote:I am cautiously optimistic

Redskin in Canada wrote:Both of you are entering into an exercise of speculation about three UNPROVEN players. He has one season to show for no contributions whasoever and that is very limited indeed. Although there were rookies in that class who already contributed in their respective teams. But to be fair, you have NONE to show for any good results either.

But so far, we have to admit that the contributions of the rookies WRs and TE so far have been NIL.

If last years draft serves as an example of what is to come when Vinny is the official GM, then we are in deep trouble.

Save for Horton, the outlook right now is bleak.

yupchagee wrote:

SkinsFreak wrote:

yupchagee wrote:In 2 TE sets, the 2nd TE is usually a blocker, which Davis isn't. While it's nice to have depth, you don't use a 2nd rnd pick on a player you don't see as starting in a couple of years.

Making a comment such as the one I highlighted proves beyond any reasonable doubt that you don't follow the team very closely and have no idea of what you're talking about. Because if you think they don't plan on using him for a couple of years... I mean... that's just ignorant. Davis will be playing this year.

It's rather evident you aren't following the team or listening to Zorn. Zorn has spoken numerous times about formations utilizing multiple pass catching TE's. As I said before, he spoke about it again this past weekend. In some formations he might split one out or could use them both on the end of the line. Perhaps you should give the coach the benefit of the doubt and watch his offense in it's second year before you condemn it. I'm quite sure Zorn knows what he's doing and what he intends, while those who don't follow very closely have no idea.

I'm not going to waste my time to pull up every recent quote from Zorn regarding the use of Davis, but here's a few...

Question: How is Fred Davis growing and maturing as a tight end? Can we expect contributions from him this year?

-- Steve W.

Gary: The goal has always been to get Davis and Chris ey on the field at the same time. This year, that’s coming closer to fruition as Davis is progressing nicely. Said Jim Zorn: “Now he is looking forward to stepping into a role and actually playing. Last year, he was wondering what it was all about. He kind of grew up to know that to be on the football field, you have to do things right and you have to play fast...He is just more comfortable. He knows the terminology now. When I call a particular play, he knows what that means to him now.”

In just a few short practices this offseason, Davis appears (to me) have completely turned things around. He's looked fast and athletic in practices, and he's appeared focused while working. But today -- for the third or fourth straight day -- I was struck by Davis's footspeed after the catch. He's a big guy, but is remarkably quick.

I talked to Davis about minicamp and the first week of OTAs, but first I talked to head coach Jim Zorn about if he had seen the same differences in Davis that I had.

"Oh, he's very different than last year when he came in," Zorn said. "More explosive. He looked powerful, caught the ball well."

"He's much more confident, and he knows we want him to be on that field -- and that's what he's getting ready for. He's not just trying to make the team, you know."

I didn't say play, I said START


As long as ey is healthy, Davis will not start. It was a bad use of the pick.

In essence, he expected more out of our 2nd round pick WRs than most 1st round WRs show in their first season.

Further, Davis was a 2nd round pick. You act like he was a top ten 1st rounder

SkinsJock wrote:I do not think that Snyder should be rated that low and I do think that Snyder has changed somewhat and I am hopeful. HOWEVER, the fact remains that the team has not done very well under Snyder's ownership and we have not been managed well nor do we seem to have a plan for the future.

We are constantly hoping that things will get turned around here but we are like a chef that keeps adding spices to a bad recipe in hopes that it will change and become tasteful

We are now still in the "let's give this a try" or "let's give these guys a chance" mode, when we should be futher down the rebuilding road than we are.

This is not because the QB is not good enough or the coach is not good enough - the one constant is, we do not make good enough decisions at the top to ensure continued success here.

If you want a first class team then you aught to find the right people to manage it and give them the support to get that done.

Redskin in Canada wrote:The camps are divided very clearly among those who can separate the love for their team and the bad mangement conducted by the FO over a decade and those others who cannot separate their loyalty for the team from an endless support for a dysfunctional front office.

I do not argue that some are better fans than others or some love their team more than others. Both have arguments to show that they are good fans. Some will argue that they are fans in spite of such a horrendous FO. Others willl say that they are fans even with support or mixed feelings. No matter. We all are fans. The thing that divides us deeply is whether there is an element of trust that can be deposited on the FO after such a disastrous or mediocre track record or not.
We argue in the negative with the TRACK RECORD on our side. But I understand the emotional motvation for eternal hope and optimism of some of you as unjustified as that might be on our eyes.

SkinsFreak wrote:

yupchagee wrote:

SkinsFreak wrote:

yupchagee wrote:In 2 TE sets, the 2nd TE is usually a blocker, which Davis isn't. While it's nice to have depth, you don't use a 2nd rnd pick on a player you don't see as starting in a couple of years.

Making a comment such as the one I highlighted proves beyond any reasonable doubt that you don't follow the team very closely and have no idea of what you're talking about. Because if you think they don't plan on using him for a couple of years... I mean... that's just ignorant. Davis will be playing this year.

It's rather evident you aren't following the team or listening to Zorn. Zorn has spoken numerous times about formations utilizing multiple pass catching TE's. As I said before, he spoke about it again this past weekend. In some formations he might split one out or could use them both on the end of the line. Perhaps you should give the coach the benefit of the doubt and watch his offense in it's second year before you condemn it. I'm quite sure Zorn knows what he's doing and what he intends, while those who don't follow very closely have no idea.

I'm not going to waste my time to pull up every recent quote from Zorn regarding the use of Davis, but here's a few...

Question: How is Fred Davis growing and maturing as a tight end? Can we expect contributions from him this year?

-- Steve W.

Gary: The goal has always been to get Davis and Chris ey on the field at the same time. This year, that’s coming closer to fruition as Davis is progressing nicely. Said Jim Zorn: “Now he is looking forward to stepping into a role and actually playing. Last year, he was wondering what it was all about. He kind of grew up to know that to be on the football field, you have to do things right and you have to play fast...He is just more comfortable. He knows the terminology now. When I call a particular play, he knows what that means to him now.”

In just a few short practices this offseason, Davis appears (to me) have completely turned things around. He's looked fast and athletic in practices, and he's appeared focused while working. But today -- for the third or fourth straight day -- I was struck by Davis's footspeed after the catch. He's a big guy, but is remarkably quick.

I talked to Davis about minicamp and the first week of OTAs, but first I talked to head coach Jim Zorn about if he had seen the same differences in Davis that I had.

"Oh, he's very different than last year when he came in," Zorn said. "More explosive. He looked powerful, caught the ball well."

"He's much more confident, and he knows we want him to be on that field -- and that's what he's getting ready for. He's not just trying to make the team, you know."

I didn't say play, I said START


As long as ey is healthy, Davis will not start. It was a bad use of the pick.

How do you know? And if Davis is involved in 50%+ of the game, what difference does it make if he's not on the field for the 1st play of the game, which he might be? The TE position is not like others, in that multiple TE's are used during the course of the game. Further, Davis was a 2nd round pick. You act like he was a top ten 1st rounder. But whatever... it's apparent the coaches own words regarding his intentions with certain players isn't good enough for you. I'll remember this discussion and we'll talk after the season.

How many teams routinely use 2 receiving TE's anywhere close to 1/2 the time? Do any of them use the WCO?

Chris Luva Luva wrote:I haven't been following this thread too closely but if anyone deserves blame for the rookies of 08 its Zorn, not Danny. Although if you want to argue the root of the issue....lololo

Chris Luva Luva wrote:I haven't been following this thread too closely but if anyone deserves blame for the rookies of 08 its Zorn, not Danny. Although if you want to argue the root of the issue....lololo

yupchagee wrote:How many teams routinely use 2 receiving TE's anywhere close to 1/2 the time? Do any of them use the WCO?

Double-barreled

The new prototype tight end has become so effective in the passing game that many teams are using two at a time.

WHILE TERRELL OWENS'S signing caused the biggest off-season stir in Dallas, it wasn't the Cowboys' only intriguing personnel move. In April, they drafted Notre Dame tight end Anthony Fasano in the second round-despite having a 24-year-old, two-time Pro Bowl player, Jason Witten, already manning the position. Far from a challenge to Witten, who averaged 63 receptions over his first three seasons, Fasano's drafting signaled a change in coach Bill Parcells's playbook. This year the Cowboys are joining roughly one third of NFL teams in employing two tight ends in their base offenses.

The alignment was in vogue in the 1990s, before three-receiver sets and spread formations became the offensive craze. But as defenses adjusted to that aerial attack, the two-tight-end set returned, with a twist: Increased athleticism at the position makes the alignment a more formidable weapon than before. "This hybrid position is not a traditional tight end," says Parcells, who is using Witten (6'5'', 265 pounds) and Fasano (6'4'', 258) together on about 80% of plays. "If you put just another slug tight end in there, an immovable guy, you're not creating an advantage."

The reemergence of the two-tight-end alignment can be attributed to 1) the versatility of the faster, stronger athletes playing the position; 2) the proliferation of 3-4 defenses, which are prone to having linebackers cover tight ends; and 3) the rise of the Cover 2 scheme, which is susceptible to mid-range passes underneath the safeties-the tight end's bread and butter. Parcells prefers using a second tight end over a third wideout because he wants a tight end going against a smaller safety or, better yet, a slower linebacker, rather than a wideout against a nickelback. Even in long-yardage situations Dallas and other teams are using an extra tight end to create mismatches. "Unless you have a third wide receiver who is just so superior to the other team's additional defensive back," says Parcells, "another good tight end gives you an advantage in the matchups."

The two-tight-end formation has been part of the Colts offense since coordinator Tom Moore and quarterback Peyton Manning arrived in 1998. Now, with a trio of versatile tight ends in Dallas Clark (6'3", 252), Ben Utecht (6'6", 251) and Bryan Fletcher (6'5", 230) Indy uses the formation almost exclusively. Says Colts president Bill Polian, "When you flex out the athletic tight end, you put the defense in a bind: Does it come with a nickelback, who can be overpowered or blocked [on a run], or does it leave a linebacker on the field, which is really a disadvantage [in coverage]?"

In San Francisco the 49ers had a prize tight end in Eric Johnson (6'3", 252), who had a team-high 82 catches for 825 yards in 2004 but missed last season with a torn right plantar fascia, and this year they drafted the highly athletic Vernon Davis (6'3", 253) in April. But instead of pitting the two against each other in a competition for the starting job, offensive coordinator Norv Turner is using them in tandem on roughly half of San Francisco's snaps.

The Patriots, having lost wideouts Deion Branch and David Givens, now feature two first-round tight ends in their passing game: Daniel Graham, a superb blocker who's dangerous in the open field, and Ben Watson, a solid blocker and receiver who has sub-4.5 speed. "Because they've got guys who've been in the system," says Witten, " New England is probably the team that executes [the two-tight-end offense] the best."

Of course, it helps all teams that colleges are developing tight ends that fit the new prototype. "The college game is so much more pass-oriented than it ever was," says Parcells. "I would say it's a trend, but it's also the only cars they're selling these days."

SkinsFreak wrote:

yupchagee wrote:How many teams routinely use 2 receiving TE's anywhere close to 1/2 the time? Do any of them use the WCO?

Well... just to name a few... the Patriots, Cowboys, Colts, 49ers...

First of all, the TE is being used far more frequently. In 2002, there were 1607 receptions by tight ends in the NFL, producing 16812 receiving yards and 128 touchdowns. In 2007 there were 2069 receptions, 21896 yards and 183 touchdowns. That is a difference of 462 receptions, 5084 yards and 63 touchdowns. In fact, from 2002 (the earliest stats I could easily get a hold of) receptions have increased nearly every year, the lone exception being 2005 when there were 15 more receptions than 2006. Receiving yards for tight ends have increased every year, and touchdowns, although not as linear as the rest, are on the whole increasing every year.

Year --- Receptions - Receiving Yards - Touchdowns
2007 ------ 2069 ---------- 21896 ---------- 183
2006 ------ 1897 ---------- 20143 ---------- 156
2005 ------ 1912 ---------- 20006 ---------- 140
2004 ------ 1844 ---------- 19404 ---------- 182
2003 ------ 1691 ---------- 17756 ---------- 126
2002 ------ 1607 ---------- 16812 ---------- 128

Double-barreled

The new prototype tight end has become so effective in the passing game that many teams are using two at a time.

WHILE TERRELL OWENS'S signing caused the biggest off-season stir in Dallas, it wasn't the Cowboys' only intriguing personnel move. In April, they drafted Notre Dame tight end Anthony Fasano in the second round-despite having a 24-year-old, two-time Pro Bowl player, Jason Witten, already manning the position. Far from a challenge to Witten, who averaged 63 receptions over his first three seasons, Fasano's drafting signaled a change in coach Bill Parcells's playbook. This year the Cowboys are joining roughly one third of NFL teams in employing two tight ends in their base offenses.

The alignment was in vogue in the 1990s, before three-receiver sets and spread formations became the offensive craze. But as defenses adjusted to that aerial attack, the two-tight-end set returned, with a twist: Increased athleticism at the position makes the alignment a more formidable weapon than before. "This hybrid position is not a traditional tight end," says Parcells, who is using Witten (6'5'', 265 pounds) and Fasano (6'4'', 258) together on about 80% of plays. "If you put just another slug tight end in there, an immovable guy, you're not creating an advantage."

The reemergence of the two-tight-end alignment can be attributed to 1) the versatility of the faster, stronger athletes playing the position; 2) the proliferation of 3-4 defenses, which are prone to having linebackers cover tight ends; and 3) the rise of the Cover 2 scheme, which is susceptible to mid-range passes underneath the safeties-the tight end's bread and butter. Parcells prefers using a second tight end over a third wideout because he wants a tight end going against a smaller safety or, better yet, a slower linebacker, rather than a wideout against a nickelback. Even in long-yardage situations Dallas and other teams are using an extra tight end to create mismatches. "Unless you have a third wide receiver who is just so superior to the other team's additional defensive back," says Parcells, "another good tight end gives you an advantage in the matchups."

The two-tight-end formation has been part of the Colts offense since coordinator Tom Moore and quarterback Peyton Manning arrived in 1998. Now, with a trio of versatile tight ends in Dallas Clark (6'3", 252), Ben Utecht (6'6", 251) and Bryan Fletcher (6'5", 230) Indy uses the formation almost exclusively. Says Colts president Bill Polian, "When you flex out the athletic tight end, you put the defense in a bind: Does it come with a nickelback, who can be overpowered or blocked [on a run], or does it leave a linebacker on the field, which is really a disadvantage [in coverage]?"

In San Francisco the 49ers had a prize tight end in Eric Johnson (6'3", 252), who had a team-high 82 catches for 825 yards in 2004 but missed last season with a torn right plantar fascia, and this year they drafted the highly athletic Vernon Davis (6'3", 253) in April. But instead of pitting the two against each other in a competition for the starting job, offensive coordinator Norv Turner is using them in tandem on roughly half of San Francisco's snaps.

The Patriots, having lost wideouts Deion Branch and David Givens, now feature two first-round tight ends in their passing game: Daniel Graham, a superb blocker who's dangerous in the open field, and Ben Watson, a solid blocker and receiver who has sub-4.5 speed. "Because they've got guys who've been in the system," says Witten, " New England is probably the team that executes [the two-tight-end offense] the best."

Of course, it helps all teams that colleges are developing tight ends that fit the new prototype. "The college game is so much more pass-oriented than it ever was," says Parcells. "I would say it's a trend, but it's also the only cars they're selling these days."

Link

Just because you don't understand or recognize something doesn't mean it doesn't exist. By the way, I'll send you an invoice for the education.

SkinsFreak wrote:

yupchagee wrote:How many teams routinely use 2 receiving TE's anywhere close to 1/2 the time? Do any of them use the WCO?

Well... just to name a few... the Patriots, Cowboys, Colts, 49ers...

First of all, the TE is being used far more frequently. In 2002, there were 1607 receptions by tight ends in the NFL, producing 16812 receiving yards and 128 touchdowns. In 2007 there were 2069 receptions, 21896 yards and 183 touchdowns. That is a difference of 462 receptions, 5084 yards and 63 touchdowns. In fact, from 2002 (the earliest stats I could easily get a hold of) receptions have increased nearly every year, the lone exception being 2005 when there were 15 more receptions than 2006. Receiving yards for tight ends have increased every year, and touchdowns, although not as linear as the rest, are on the whole increasing every year.

Year --- Receptions - Receiving Yards - Touchdowns
2007 ------ 2069 ---------- 21896 ---------- 183
2006 ------ 1897 ---------- 20143 ---------- 156
2005 ------ 1912 ---------- 20006 ---------- 140
2004 ------ 1844 ---------- 19404 ---------- 182
2003 ------ 1691 ---------- 17756 ---------- 126
2002 ------ 1607 ---------- 16812 ---------- 128

Double-barreled

The new prototype tight end has become so effective in the passing game that many teams are using two at a time.

WHILE TERRELL OWENS'S signing caused the biggest off-season stir in Dallas, it wasn't the Cowboys' only intriguing personnel move. In April, they drafted Notre Dame tight end Anthony Fasano in the second round-despite having a 24-year-old, two-time Pro Bowl player, Jason Witten, already manning the position. Far from a challenge to Witten, who averaged 63 receptions over his first three seasons, Fasano's drafting signaled a change in coach Bill Parcells's playbook. This year the Cowboys are joining roughly one third of NFL teams in employing two tight ends in their base offenses.

The alignment was in vogue in the 1990s, before three-receiver sets and spread formations became the offensive craze. But as defenses adjusted to that aerial attack, the two-tight-end set returned, with a twist: Increased athleticism at the position makes the alignment a more formidable weapon than before. "This hybrid position is not a traditional tight end," says Parcells, who is using Witten (6'5'', 265 pounds) and Fasano (6'4'', 258) together on about 80% of plays. "If you put just another slug tight end in there, an immovable guy, you're not creating an advantage."

The reemergence of the two-tight-end alignment can be attributed to 1) the versatility of the faster, stronger athletes playing the position; 2) the proliferation of 3-4 defenses, which are prone to having linebackers cover tight ends; and 3) the rise of the Cover 2 scheme, which is susceptible to mid-range passes underneath the safeties-the tight end's bread and butter. Parcells prefers using a second tight end over a third wideout because he wants a tight end going against a smaller safety or, better yet, a slower linebacker, rather than a wideout against a nickelback. Even in long-yardage situations Dallas and other teams are using an extra tight end to create mismatches. "Unless you have a third wide receiver who is just so superior to the other team's additional defensive back," says Parcells, "another good tight end gives you an advantage in the matchups."

The two-tight-end formation has been part of the Colts offense since coordinator Tom Moore and quarterback Peyton Manning arrived in 1998. Now, with a trio of versatile tight ends in Dallas Clark (6'3", 252), Ben Utecht (6'6", 251) and Bryan Fletcher (6'5", 230) Indy uses the formation almost exclusively. Says Colts president Bill Polian, "When you flex out the athletic tight end, you put the defense in a bind: Does it come with a nickelback, who can be overpowered or blocked [on a run], or does it leave a linebacker on the field, which is really a disadvantage [in coverage]?"

In San Francisco the 49ers had a prize tight end in Eric Johnson (6'3", 252), who had a team-high 82 catches for 825 yards in 2004 but missed last season with a torn right plantar fascia, and this year they drafted the highly athletic Vernon Davis (6'3", 253) in April. But instead of pitting the two against each other in a competition for the starting job, offensive coordinator Norv Turner is using them in tandem on roughly half of San Francisco's snaps.

The Patriots, having lost wideouts Deion Branch and David Givens, now feature two first-round tight ends in their passing game: Daniel Graham, a superb blocker who's dangerous in the open field, and Ben Watson, a solid blocker and receiver who has sub-4.5 speed. "Because they've got guys who've been in the system," says Witten, " New England is probably the team that executes [the two-tight-end offense] the best."

Of course, it helps all teams that colleges are developing tight ends that fit the new prototype. "The college game is so much more pass-oriented than it ever was," says Parcells. "I would say it's a trend, but it's also the only cars they're selling these days."

Link

Just because you don't understand or recognize something doesn't mean it doesn't exist. By the way, I'll send you an invoice for the education.

Deadskins wrote:

Chris Luva Luva wrote:I haven't been following this thread too closely but if anyone deserves blame for the rookies of 08 its Zorn, not Danny. Although if you want to argue the root of the issue....lololo

You can't blame Zorn for the rookies. Maybe for them not getting much game time, but not for them being on the team.

P.S. Chris, I've always wanted to know, what does the extra "olo" stand for?