The-Hogs.net - Washington Football Discussion, Redskins to Commanders Era

Please...Jason has the talent at the WR to succeed. Old man Collins used the SAME WR's and took us to the playoffs. He used the same WR's and hadn't played a game in 3 decades, he shook the rust off and did decent with them.

It's just a bullcrap excuse.

SkinsSince96 wrote:

El Mexican wrote:

CanesSkins26 wrote:

I've watched a lot of Bears games recently and Orton, quite franckly, sucks.

So does Campbell.

Still, I'd take 9 times out of 10 over Orton.

Campbell 315-506 62.3% 3245 yds 13 tds 6 ints
Orton 272-465 58.5% 2972 18 tds 12 ints

Ill take the guy who in 41 less att. had 5 more tds and only 273 less yards. That was done with a offense that isnt as good as the Redskins talent wise. Give me Orton.

The bottom line to this whole argument is, if the Broncos really thought that Campbell was better than Orton, they would have taken the deal with the Skins. No one in their right mind thinks that Campbell will eventually be a franchise type QB.

SterlingSkinzFanatic wrote:

SkinsSince96 wrote:

El Mexican wrote:

CanesSkins26 wrote:

I've watched a lot of Bears games recently and Orton, quite franckly, sucks.

So does Campbell.

Still, I'd take 9 times out of 10 over Orton.

Campbell 315-506 62.3% 3245 yds 13 tds 6 ints
Orton 272-465 58.5% 2972 18 tds 12 ints

Ill take the guy who in 41 less att. had 5 more tds and only 273 less yards. That was done with a offense that isnt as good as the Redskins talent wise. Give me Orton.

The bottom line to this whole argument is, if the Broncos really thought that Campbell was better than Orton, they would have taken the deal with the Skins. No one in their right mind thinks that Campbell will eventually be a franchise type QB.

i dont think so, skins could not afford the 3rd round pick that the bears were also throwing in the deal

as for JC17, he will not be here in 2010, and prob wont be in 2009...

El Mexican wrote:Now let's look at the Redskins WR's SkisSince96:

Santana Moss--good all around WR, but can disapear from games.

ARE--servicable at best.

ey--great TE

James Trash--Your're kidding, right?

Thomas and Kelly--inexistent.

The Skins have the best WR between both teams in Moss and the best TE easily in ey. Id go out on a limb and say Randle El is a better WR than Devin Hester.

Im not saying Orton is head and shoulders above Campbell but if I had to answer today id say Orton.

I do think both QBs will have career years in 2009 for what its worth.

I think comparing Campbell to any other QB who had twice the time to

throw is trash and calling our rookie WR's "inexistent" is trash. How many

INT's would Cutler have thrown after 8 games? With Jansen's butt

charging right at him? We were 6-2 because of Campbell's ability to hold

on to the ball.

Give Campbell Romo's time in the pocket and see how our 2-6 finish

turns out. I just feel like the criticism gets spread around too much. How

can you get the deep ball when you can't step up to throw it? Who on

earth is going to get open in 1.9 seconds? If Campbell gets sacked 11

times next year, we go deep into the playoffs, no doubt. It seems that all

Redskins games lately are so consistently close (within 7pts) that I can't

help but imagine how many drives were stopped because of the 38 sacks

and not because Campbell didn't take risky shots downfield.

A great QB can do what Campbell did last year under those

circumstances and do what Cutler did when protected very well. Campell

proved he can do the hardest part, now give him time in the pocket.

BurgundyandGoldfaith wrote:now give him time in the pocket.

Why? So he can pump fake it an extra 5 times before he gets sacked????

Chris Luva Luva wrote:Please...Jason has the talent at the WR to succeed. Old man Collins used the SAME WR's and took us to the playoffs. He used the same WR's and hadn't played a game in 3 decades, he shook the rust off and did decent with them.

It's just a bullcrap excuse.

blah blah blah. But yet the 6-2 first half last year wasn't good enough for you to say JC can play? Anyone can play lights out for a few games. After #21, the whole team was in a special place. Poor example and you repeat so often.

SterlingSkinzFanatic wrote:

SkinsSince96 wrote:

El Mexican wrote:

CanesSkins26 wrote:

I've watched a lot of Bears games recently and Orton, quite franckly, sucks.

So does Campbell.

Still, I'd take 9 times out of 10 over Orton.

Campbell 315-506 62.3% 3245 yds 13 tds 6 ints
Orton 272-465 58.5% 2972 18 tds 12 ints

Ill take the guy who in 41 less att. had 5 more tds and only 273 less yards. That was done with a offense that isnt as good as the Redskins talent wise. Give me Orton.

The bottom line to this whole argument is, if the Broncos really thought that Campbell was better than Orton, they would have taken the deal with the Skins. No one in their right mind thinks that Campbell will eventually be a franchise type QB.

Does anyone actually know what the deal with the Skins was? I haven't read anything other than talk forum guesses. The Skins may have had a substantially lower offer on the table. More than one analyst commented on how odd it was that Denver jumped on the Chicago deal so quickly. As if, it could have been so much better than anyone elses offer, that they were falling over themselves to accept it.

fleetus wrote:

Chris Luva Luva wrote:Please...Jason has the talent at the WR to succeed. Old man Collins used the SAME WR's and took us to the playoffs. He used the same WR's and hadn't played a game in 3 decades, he shook the rust off and did decent with them.

It's just a bullcrap excuse.

blah blah blah. But yet the 6-2 first half last year wasn't good enough for you to say JC can play? Anyone can play lights out for a few games. After #21, the whole team was in a special place. Poor example and you repeat so often.

We didn't go 6-2 because of Jason. We went 6-2 thanks to the running-game. We went 2-6 cus Zorn whored out the running game and the passing game couldn't carry the load AS USUAL.

Yes, the ghost of Sean Taylor was magically making Todd Collins more decisive than Jason. Well, let's do Jason and favor and get Seans ghost to help him this year cus he'll need it.

BurgundyandGoldfaith wrote:I think comparing Campbell to any other QB who had twice the time to

throw is trash and calling our rookie WR's "inexistent" is trash. How many

INT's would Cutler have thrown after 8 games? With Jansen's butt

charging right at him? We were 6-2 because of Campbell's ability to hold

on to the ball.

Give Campbell Romo's time in the pocket and see how our 2-6 finish

turns out. I just feel like the criticism gets spread around too much. How

can you get the deep ball when you can't step up to throw it? Who on

earth is going to get open in 1.9 seconds? If Campbell gets sacked 11

times next year, we go deep into the playoffs, no doubt. It seems that all

Redskins games lately are so consistently close (within 7pts) that I can't

help but imagine how many drives were stopped because of the 38 sacks

and not because Campbell didn't take risky shots downfield.

A great QB can do what Campbell did last year under those

circumstances and do what Cutler did when protected very well. Campell

proved he can do the hardest part, now give him time in the pocket.

Yep.

As written on the AP:

Cutler is leaving a great pocket of protection in Denver, where left tackle Ryan Clady is considered the best young tackle in the game, and a great bunch of receivers led by fellow Pro Bowler Brandon Marshall and Eddie Royal. Behind young tackles Clady and Ryan Harris, Cutler's offensive line allowed just a dozen sacks.

Chris Luva Luva wrote:

fleetus wrote:

Chris Luva Luva wrote:Please...Jason has the talent at the WR to succeed. Old man Collins used the SAME WR's and took us to the playoffs. He used the same WR's and hadn't played a game in 3 decades, he shook the rust off and did decent with them.

It's just a bullcrap excuse.

blah blah blah. But yet the 6-2 first half last year wasn't good enough for you to say JC can play? Anyone can play lights out for a few games. After #21, the whole team was in a special place. Poor example and you repeat so often.

We didn't go 6-2 because of Jason. We went 6-2 thanks to the running-game. We went 2-6 cus Zorn whored out the running game and the passing game couldn't carry the load AS USUAL.

Yes, the ghost of Sean Taylor was magically making Todd Collins more decisive than Jason. Well, let's do Jason and favor and get Seans ghost to help him this year cus he'll need it.

Man, you are just digging in deeper and deeper. You better hope JC is as bad as you say he is.

I have a question.

If Jason is better or just as good as Cutler? Than why hasn't anyone offered us 2 first round picks for him? They know we want to get rid of him...

SkinsJock wrote:The day after!

There are some that think the trade for Cutler was good for both teams and I have also tried to look at the merits from both team' perspective. whatever ....

I'm just glad that we did not do this - I think we need a great QB and there is a very small (IMO) chance that Campbell is that but we also need high draft picks more.

I think that we understand the upside that adding an "impact" player can be to an offense OR defense (hopefully Fat Albert is all of that!) but in our case I'm not sure that the "upside" of Cutler was worth both the picks and his having to "prove" he's not the spoilt brat he has been the last few weeks.

We have a lot of work to do but I feel we are better off with the picks and with Campbell - we need to do the right thing with the picks (that is another story) and we have to hope that we can find a franchise QB when Campbell does not make it to that level - but, we can do that over the next few years - losing high draft picks (OR making bad choices with those picks) hurts a team for a long time and we know that better than most teams.

I hope Campbell has a great season and I hope we make the most out of the #13 pick this year and the #1 pick next year that we almost lost yesterday

I agree with most of what you said except "I think we need a great QB and there is a very small (IMO) chance that Campbell is that" Well lets look at this. Was Joe Theismann, Doug Williams or Mark Rypien a great QB? Ok, look I know that was a different era so lets look at this. Is Trent Dilfer, Ben Roethlisberger or Eli Manning a great QB? Except for defense, wasn't the common factor Offensive Line, Wide receivers and a running game? Ok, lets look at this- was Dan Marino a great QB? Yes, I think he was and how many superbowls did he win again? I know he got them there but lets look at what is really the problem. It isn't QB. I know there are great quarterbacks out there in past and present that won super bowls but is it really necessary?

Just my opinion but I also think Orton will do very well with Denver and the Broncos (who were #2 offensively last year) can use the draft picks to help that defense. = good move for the Broncos.

The Bears suddenly get a big time QB and he is a better QB than Orton - now this team has a lot of issues with the WR corp but they will be a better team with Cutler = just gave up a lot for a big time QB - they might look back and wonder if it was really worth it IMO

We did not give up the 2 #1 picks and we still have Campbell but until we get a young and very good line plus have a great #1 WR to go with a back like Portis (c'mon guys Portis is only going to be here for a few more years) and a great QB, we will be good to go again = we are still at least 2 drafts plus some free agents (Snyder loves to buy players) away from getting a consistent playoff contender - remember those days??
we were not going to suddenly be a playoff team with Cutler at QB and Fat Albert making our defense even better now, were we

Kilmer72 wrote:

SkinsJock wrote:The day after!

There are some that think the trade for Cutler was good for both teams and I have also tried to look at the merits from both team' perspective. whatever ....

I'm just glad that we did not do this - I think we need a great QB and there is a very small (IMO) chance that Campbell is that but we also need high draft picks more.

I think that we understand the upside that adding an "impact" player can be to an offense OR defense (hopefully Fat Albert is all of that!) but in our case I'm not sure that the "upside" of Cutler was worth both the picks and his having to "prove" he's not the spoilt brat he has been the last few weeks.

We have a lot of work to do but I feel we are better off with the picks and with Campbell - we need to do the right thing with the picks (that is another story) and we have to hope that we can find a franchise QB when Campbell does not make it to that level - but, we can do that over the next few years - losing high draft picks (OR making bad choices with those picks) hurts a team for a long time and we know that better than most teams.

I hope Campbell has a great season and I hope we make the most out of the #13 pick this year and the #1 pick next year that we almost lost yesterday

I agree with most of what you said except "I think we need a great QB and there is a very small (IMO) chance that Campbell is that" Well lets look at this. Was Joe Theismann, Doug Williams or Mark Rypien a great QB? Ok, look I know that was a different era so lets look at this. Is Trent Dilfer, Ben Roethlisberger or Eli Manning a great QB? Except for defense, wasn't the common factor Offensive Line, Wide receivers and a running game? Ok, lets look at this- was Dan Marino a great QB? Yes, I think he was and how many superbowls did he win again? I know he got them there but lets look at what is really the problem. It isn't QB. I know there are great quarterbacks out there in past and present that won super bowls but is it really necessary?

You need to post more often Kilmer. I agree with your analogy, because it is true. I'll add how many Super Bowls did Elway win before he had the rest of the parts needed around him to accomplish the task. I predict JC will have a breakout year and a lot of people will eat crow. I am not saying JC is Elway, bu the guy has skill. This year he can react a lot more rather than thinking and then reacting. The only problem with JC is that he hasn't put up enough touchdowns. He will correct that this year and our team will do very well.

Kilmer72 wrote: .... I know there are great quarterbacks out there in past and present that won super bowls but is it really necessary?

not really necessary but it is the most important position on the field and while a good QB can help you and it is very important to have a good team - this position is a catalyst - Campbell is a really nice guy but he's not the guy we need at QB

I tell you - I loved Kilmer and Sonny and even Joey T but those guys were all leaders - I just do not see the intangibles in Campbell - he's a good QB but he's not good enough - he is just not the leader we need at QB.

I also think that this trade would not have even been considered if the FO and Zorn thought that Campbell was close to being a good enough QB that we could win consistently with - that's the reality of what happened here.

Is Trent Dilfer, Ben Roethlisberger or Eli Manning a great QB?

Trent Dilfer had arguably the best defense in the history of the NFL to win games for him. The Ravens' offense, under Dilfer, was historically bad. They went games without scoring td's.

Imo Big Ben is a great qb. People like to point out that JC had to deal with a bad offensive line last year. Well Big Ben WON THE SUPER BOWL with an offensive line that gave up 46 sacks during the regular season. Add in the playoffs and Big Ben was sacked 54 times last year. 54! Yet somehow he managed to overcome that and win a championship. Yet all we hear is how JC can't win because the offensive line is so terrible.

Big Ben might not have the best stats, but he steps up in crunch time. His play in the 4th quarter of the Super Bowl was ridiculous. If he doesn't carry that team late in the game they don't win. He has the ability to carry his teammates and make the people around him better, JC doesn't.

It's hard for me not to remember that the season before last Campbell couldn't find an open receiver to save his fanny and Collins came in and immediately found dozens of them running around uncovered-- even though we were playing some of the best teams in the game.

To me, that means simply that Campbell has trouble spotting open receivers-- a fact in evidence since Gibbs brought him her. I like the guy find, but if I were in the boss shoes, I would trade Campbell for a late first round pick, take Sanchez at 13 and then the best OL available later.

If Sanchez doesn't work out, there's always Collins, whose probably better than both Colt and Campbell. I do believe, however, that Sanchez may soon have Cutler's stature.

BurgundyandGoldfaith wrote: We were 6-2 because of Campbell's ability to hold on to the ball.

We were 6-2 because Clinton Portis was the best player in the NFL through the first 8 games. Campbell was solid but he wasnt anything special.

BurgundyandGoldfaith wrote: Campell proved he can do the hardest part, now give him time in the pocket.

Campbell has trouble throwing passes 10 yards with any accuracy. Hopefully he can have a better 2009 because in 2008 his passes were all over the place. The offensive line was a problem but Campbell also was a problem.

CanesSkins26 wrote:Trent Dilfer had arguably the best defense in the history of the NFL to win games for him. The Ravens' offense, under Dilfer, was historically bad. They went games without scoring td's.

Actually, they didn't score when Tony Banks was QB. When they put in Dilfer, they were suddenly putting up monster numbers. Like a whole 14 points a game...

Imo Big Ben is a great qb. People like to point out that JC had to deal with a bad offensive line last year. Well Big Ben WON THE SUPER BOWL with an offensive line that gave up 46 sacks during the regular season. Add in the playoffs and Big Ben was sacked 54 times last year. 54! Yet somehow he managed to overcome that and win a championship. Yet all we hear is how JC can't win because the offensive line is so terrible.

Big Ben might not have the best stats, but he steps up in crunch time. His play in the 4th quarter of the Super Bowl was ridiculous. If he doesn't carry that team late in the game they don't win. He has the ability to carry his teammates and make the people around him better, JC doesn't.

Ben is different than Campbell, and better. He does have better WRs (not even arguable), but he's a better QB. His ability to avoid sacks and extend plays is ridiculous.

Looks like the Broncos didn't want JC. According to the Washington Examiner...

In the end, Denver did not want Jason Campbell. And that's why Jay Cutler is headed to Chicago. According to a source involved in the discussions, the Redskins were closing in on a three-way deal Thursday afternoon that involved Cleveland quarterback Brady Quinn going to Denver. The source said he was told that the deal was likely to happen soon. The Examiner reported that a deal was close. Indeed, a CBS affiliate in Denver also reported that Jay Cutler had told them he was told by his agent that he was going to Washington. ESPN also reported that the Redskins were at the top of the list and a deal could happen at any time. However, the deal involving the Browns unraveled, prompting Chicago to jump back in and offer a less-complicated deal, knowing the Broncos liked Bears quarterback Kyle Orton. The source said Denver's preference of quarterbacks was Quinn and then Orton. They were not high on Campbell. So, rather than do a three-way deal with Washington and another team, the Bears, according to an NFL source, called to offer Orton, two first-round draft picks, and a third-round pick in exchange for Cutler and a fifth-round pick.

http://www.fannation.com/truth_and_rumors/view/97810-why-broncos-nixed-redskins-browns-deals

CanesSkins26 wrote:Looks like the Broncos didn't want JC. According to the Washington Examiner...

In the end, Denver did not want Jason Campbell. And that's why Jay Cutler is headed to Chicago. According to a source involved in the discussions, the Redskins were closing in on a three-way deal Thursday afternoon that involved Cleveland quarterback Brady Quinn going to Denver. The source said he was told that the deal was likely to happen soon. The Examiner reported that a deal was close. Indeed, a CBS affiliate in Denver also reported that Jay Cutler had told them he was told by his agent that he was going to Washington. ESPN also reported that the Redskins were at the top of the list and a deal could happen at any time. However, the deal involving the Browns unraveled, prompting Chicago to jump back in and offer a less-complicated deal, knowing the Broncos liked Bears quarterback Kyle Orton. The source said Denver's preference of quarterbacks was Quinn and then Orton. They were not high on Campbell. So, rather than do a three-way deal with Washington and another team, the Bears, according to an NFL source, called to offer Orton, two first-round draft picks, and a third-round pick in exchange for Cutler and a fifth-round pick.

http://www.fannation.com/truth_and_rumors/view/97810-why-broncos-nixed-redskins-browns-deals

Like I stated in an earlier post, Denver chose Orton over Campbell...

fleetus wrote:

SterlingSkinzFanatic wrote:

SkinsSince96 wrote:

El Mexican wrote:

CanesSkins26 wrote:

I've watched a lot of Bears games recently and Orton, quite franckly, sucks.

So does Campbell.

Still, I'd take 9 times out of 10 over Orton.

Campbell 315-506 62.3% 3245 yds 13 tds 6 ints
Orton 272-465 58.5% 2972 18 tds 12 ints

Ill take the guy who in 41 less att. had 5 more tds and only 273 less yards. That was done with a offense that isnt as good as the Redskins talent wise. Give me Orton.

The bottom line to this whole argument is, if the Broncos really thought that Campbell was better than Orton, they would have taken the deal with the Skins. No one in their right mind thinks that Campbell will eventually be a franchise type QB.

Does anyone actually know what the deal with the Skins was? I haven't read anything other than talk forum guesses. The Skins may have had a substantially lower offer on the table. More than one analyst commented on how odd it was that Denver jumped on the Chicago deal so quickly. As if, it could have been so much better than anyone elses offer, that they were falling over themselves to accept it.

In the end I really believe that even for Cutler 2 first round picks was way to much to give up. Basically the Bears are not going to have a first rounder to draft until 2011. Pretty expensive if you ask me especially if you look who is becoming available QB-wise next year.

Chris Luva Luva wrote:I have a question.

If Jason is better or just as good as Cutler? Than why hasn't anyone offered us 2 first round picks for him? They know we want to get rid of him...

It is more complicated than that. Just to gloss over the obvious basics for you:

1. Cutler has Pro Bowl physical talent above what JC has shown, but he's not as intelligent, mature or with the leadership that JC has. Teams are always willing to throw money at a big arm because they all think they can coach the guy up. Why else did Jeff George get so many chances to prove he sucked?
2. McDaniels runs a completely different system. He wasn't high on Cutler in his system either. Cassel, Orton and Quinn were all viewed as better fits than Cutler or Campbell in his system.
3. Cutler has benefited from several things JC never has had, 1) good OL protection, 2) Great WR's, 3) two years or more in the same system.
4. Bears greatly overpaid for Cutler. Who knows if anyone else even offered two 1st's? No matter though, we'll see how Cutler turns out soon enough.

I don't think JC is a slam dunk Pro Bowler. But he deserves 2009 to show what he can do in Zorns system. I just think that if the FO would stop "F"-in around with different coaches every year and give JC a couple of years with the same system, we could finally make a meaningful judgment on him. They always look for the freakin' shortcut answer. Buy a coach, buy a free agent, trade away draft picks. Just let the thing marinate a little Why draft JC if you're never gonna give him two years with one system? Why hire Zorn if you're gonna hand him another new QB this year, then fire him for Shanahan or whoever next year? Just let it rest for a year, seriously.

If JC doesn't knock on the door of the Pro Bowl this year, finish in the top 5 QB's in the NFC, and/or play at a higher level where he is a regular factor in winning games through passing, then I will be right there saying we need to find another QB. Like I've said before, I'm not against drafting a rookie either. But trading for Cutler would've been a big mistake and we wouldn't have been better off as a result.

I would be scared as a Broncos fan, the new coach/GM likes Orton because of his win-loss record.

That my friends, if true, is dangerously stupid.

It is incredibly archaic to judge a starting pitcher in baseball by his win-loss record because there are so many outside factors. The team he is facing, the defense he has, the offense backing him, the weather... it's just a terrible, terrible metric with which to judge an individual in a team sport. Now think about how stupid that is in football where there's more factors. Archie Manning was a dang good quarterback and guess what his win-loss record was? 35-101.