The-Hogs.net - Washington Football Discussion, Redskins to Commanders Era

Ray:

I'd take all the QBs you have mentioned over Campbell. No question.

These are (or were) very good QBs in their prime. QBs that can shoulder the team when the game is on the line.

I haven't seen that from JC yet.

And thats exactly what I'm trying to tell you since my last post: with the above average talent this team has right now, you need a decent QB to be competitive. That's what JC should strive to become initially.

Collins is too damned old. You can't contemplate to build a winning franchise around him. Zorn has given Campbell the chance to show what he's got or move along to "his type" of WCO QB next season.

Take me to task. Campbell played so freaking miserably in the last two pre season games (next to last one was supposed to be a dress rehearsal for opening day) that he should bow his head in shame for a FOURTH YEAR PLAYER. And I don't care that it's a new system....he's supposed to be a professional football player and NFL starting QB. Change his name and his number and he'd have been fighting just to make the roster as the 3rd string backup with such inept play.

Whatever the excuse, reason, or what have you, to say his performance has earned him the starter role is a gross fabrication of facts.

His first round status gave him a pretty nice lead to earn that starter role.

Right now, and if the game against the Giants was any indication of what the year will become, I believe Snyder and Co. are already browsing veteran WCO QBs for next year. Collins will be gone.

Until that happens, this season we will live or die by Campbell.

Or at least until week 8 if he REALLY sucks...

El Mexican wrote:Ray:

I'd take all the QBs you have mentioned over Campbell. No question.

These are (or were) very good QBs in their prime. QBs that can shoulder the team when the game is on the line.

I haven't seen that from JC yet.

And thats exactly what I'm trying to tell you since my last post: with the above average talent this team has right now, you need a decent QB to be competitive. That's what JC should strive to become initially.

Collins is too damned old. You can't contemplate to build a winning franchise around him. Zorn has given Campbell the chance to show what he's got or move along to "his type" of WCO QB next season.

I got ya. I agree with one exception. My thoughts are who helps us win now. I'm not suggesting that you can or should build around Collins. My point is that Campbell has shown nothing to me that would indicated you can build around him either. So in that case, you choose the one that gives you the best chance to be successful now, and work on an alternative like Brennan at the same time. Let Brennan acclimate, and give him serious consideration in the off season while trying to win with Collins now. Later, as Campbell watches, let him compete for the starter job next year along with everyone else. No more free passes for him because he was a #1 pick.

I think this week we will see an improvement if Jason is to be our quarterback and if Zorn is making the right calls. The reason being is that Zorn supposedly is tweaking the offense to play to Campbell's strengths. There has to be give and take between a quarterback's ability and the head coach's scheme. Zorn needs to be able to roll Campbell out of the pocket and quite frankly just make calls to embrace his play making ability. I am not looking for 4 touchdown passes and 350yds from Campbell, but I am looking nice crisp passing and fluid motion.


I am not being negative or positive so don't throw any hate postings my way.

El Mexican wrote:His first round status gave him a pretty nice lead to earn that starter role.

Right now, and if the game against the Giants was any indication of what the year will become, I believe Snyder and Co. are already browsing veteran WCO QBs for next year. Collins will be gone.

Until that happens, this season we will live or die by Campbell.

Or at least until week 8 if he REALLY sucks...

I believe he has to win 2 games in the next 4-5 or he'll sit. If we go 0-5, 1-6, he'll be replaced by Collins, or maybe Brennan (most likely Collins).

I would personally give him 3 more games, and not one game more. At 1-3 or 0-4, you could still dig yourself out and have an over 500 year (probably not playoffs) but the last thing you want is to go 5-11 or worse.

If they stick with Campbell till game 8 and we're 2-6, I'd say put Brennan in and get him some live fire experience for next year, because Campbell will be effectively done and a Redskin at that point.

El Mexican wrote:Ray:

I'd take all the QBs you have mentioned over Campbell. No question.

No you wouldn't. At least not if their teams had been so knee-jerk reactionary, as Ray is being, to those QB's lack of production early on in their careers. Most of the QB's he mentioned actually sat for their first two seasons in the NFL (one of those "facts" Ray is always espousing), even though he claims they started right away. There are a couple of first ballot HOFers he mentioned who are exceptions to the rule, but hindsight is 20/20.

Manning's colts went 3-13 his first season, and were in the bottom half of the NFL in points scored.

Ben Roethlisberger's passing offense was #28 in the league his rookie year. Yes, he won rookie of the year, but that is because he managed the games well and did not make mistakes, not because of his dazzling numbers.

Brady came in (in his SECOND NFL season), but only because Bledsoe went down. That he was drafted in the 6th round, and was a backup before, only proves that nobody thought he was that great before he got his chance.

Brett Favre was traded by the Falcons after his rookie season. Do you think they would have done that knowing what his future held in store?

Cappster wrote:I think this week we will see an improvement if Jason is to be our quarterback and if Zorn is making the right calls. The reason being is that Zorn supposedly is tweaking the offense to play to Campbell's strengths. There has to be give and take between a quarterback's ability and the head coach's scheme. Zorn needs to be able to roll Campbell out of the pocket and quite frankly just make calls to embrace his play making ability. I am not looking for 4 touchdown passes and 350yds from Campbell, but I am looking nice crisp passing and fluid motion.


I am not being negative or positive so don't throw any hate postings my way.

When I heard Campbell talk about wanting to play more from the shotgun, I said to myself, there it is, proof that even he knows he's not suited for this offense, or any offense based on the pro set. maybe he's a run and shoot guy....but nobody plays that anymore.

The WCO is geared around 3 and 5 step drops, not the shotgun. Plus, the shotgun really limits the advantages of play action. The shotgun may help Campbell see where his receivers are, but it also helps the defense see where the ball is too. And shot gun draws are only successful with a strong outside pass rush and deeper pass routs that clear the LBs.

I think it's admirable that Zorn will consider using more shotgun formations to assist Campbell. It shows flexibility. But it's a grave mistake if he alters his system dramatically in order to accommodate the short comings of one player. What you'll wind up with is confusion and poor execution across the board with Coach and Players.

If Campbell can't run an offense from under center, then we need to install someone who can.

JSPB22 wrote: Most of the QB's he mentioned actually sat for their first two seasons in the NFL (one of those "facts" Ray is always espousing), even though he claims they started right away.

Start reading or stop lying. I listed each one, and when they started and what their numbers were. Here it is again:

Tom Brady drafted 6th round. Did not play in rookie year. Second year, started 14 games, 2,843 18 TD. Third year (second year starting) 3,764 yards 28 TD

Ben Roethlisberger Played in his rookie year after Maddox and Batch went down with injuries. Started 3rd string in camp, and wound up the rookie of the year. Took Pittsburgh to the Super Bowl in his second year. Rookie 2,621 yards 17 TD in 13 games

Peyton Manning - Started his rookie year and compiled 3,743 yards and 26 TD. His second year, 4,135 yards and 26 TD

Tony Romo - Romo was signed by Dallas in 2003. No pass attempts ZERO in 2003, 2004, 2005. Wade Phillips took over as Coach and Romo saw his first action in 2006, (started 10 games) and ended the year with a 95.1 passer rating 2903 yards and 19 TD. At the end of 2006, Jason Garrett was hired as the new Offensive coach and installed his system. Romo was even better under the new offense and finished with a 97.4 rating, 4,211 yards and 36 TD (3 times the number of TDs Campbell had THREE TIMES. TOTAL GAME EXPERIENCE 26 games or 6 games more than Jason Campbell. Furthermore, Romo had 10 games in one system, and 16 games in another, whereas Campbell played all 20 games under Saunder's one system.

Jeff Garcia First year 2544 yards 11 TD. His second year 4,278 yards and 31 TD

Kurt Warner His rookie year he only had 11 pass attempts. His second year he threw for 4,353 yards and 41 TD

Philip Rivers 2004-2005 no games started, and had 30 total pass attempts in 2 years. 2006 he started all 16 games, 3,388 yards 22 TD. 2007 Norv Turner came in (new system) he had 3,152 and 21 TD.

Mark Brunell Drafted by Green Bay 1993. Packers 1993-1994 no games started, 27 total pass attempts. 1995 First year with Jaguars, 10 games, 2,168 yards 15 TD. Second year Jaguars 4,367 yards 19 TD.

Marc Bulger Rookie year, no games, no pass attempts. Second year, 7 games 1,836 yards 12 TD. Third year (7 games experience) 3,845 yards and 22 TD.

Carson Palmer Rookie year did not play. Second year (13 games) 2,897 yards 18 TD. Third year (13 games experience) 3,836 yards 32 TD

Chad Pennington 2000-2001 had 25 total pass attempts over 2 years. Third year (first 12 games starting) 3,120 yards 22 TD

Ray: Agreed. If we go 1-3 or 0-4 with Campbell playing the way he did against NY, Zorn will probably sit Campbell.

Colt won't start this year, we all know that. Even though you evidently see some really good things in the kid most of us don't.

JSP: Campbell has also sat like most of those other QBs he mentioned. He did not play a down his rookie year and seven games in 2006. So what was your point? Kinda lost me there a bit...

Okay boys and girls, remember to address the post...not the poster.

Having said that:

Campbell is not the only person on this offense that is learning a new system. That's the difference between he, and a good deal of the other "more successful" QBs in the league.

He has not had the luxury of entering a system where he was the only one who had to learn it.

RayNAustin wrote:

JSPB22 wrote: Most of the QB's he mentioned actually sat for their first two seasons in the NFL (one of those "facts" Ray is always espousing), even though he claims they started right away.

Start reading or stop lying. I listed each one, and when they started and what their numbers were. Here it is again:

Tom Brady drafted 6th round. Did not play in rookie year. Second year, started 14 games, 2,843 18 TD. Third year (second year starting) 3,764 yards 28 TD

Ben Roethlisberger Played in his rookie year after Maddox and Batch went down with injuries. Started 3rd string in camp, and wound up the rookie of the year. Took Pittsburgh to the Super Bowl in his second year. Rookie 2,621 yards 17 TD in 13 games

Peyton Manning - Started his rookie year and compiled 3,743 yards and 26 TD. His second year, 4,135 yards and 26 TD

Tony Romo - Romo was signed by Dallas in 2003. No pass attempts ZERO in 2003, 2004, 2005. Wade Phillips took over as Coach and Romo saw his first action in 2006, (started 10 games) and ended the year with a 95.1 passer rating 2903 yards and 19 TD. At the end of 2006, Jason Garrett was hired as the new Offensive coach and installed his system. Romo was even better under the new offense and finished with a 97.4 rating, 4,211 yards and 36 TD (3 times the number of TDs Campbell had THREE TIMES. TOTAL GAME EXPERIENCE 26 games or 6 games more than Jason Campbell. Furthermore, Romo had 10 games in one system, and 16 games in another, whereas Campbell played all 20 games under Saunder's one system.

Jeff Garcia First year 2544 yards 11 TD. His second year 4,278 yards and 31 TD

Kurt Warner His rookie year he only had 11 pass attempts. His second year he threw for 4,353 yards and 41 TD

Philip Rivers 2004-2005 no games started, and had 30 total pass attempts in 2 years. 2006 he started all 16 games, 3,388 yards 22 TD. 2007 Norv Turner came in (new system) he had 3,152 and 21 TD.

Mark Brunell Drafted by Green Bay 1993. Packers 1993-1994 no games started, 27 total pass attempts. 1995 First year with Jaguars, 10 games, 2,168 yards 15 TD. Second year Jaguars 4,367 yards 19 TD.

Marc Bulger Rookie year, no games, no pass attempts. Second year, 7 games 1,836 yards 12 TD. Third year (7 games experience) 3,845 yards and 22 TD.

Carson Palmer Rookie year did not play. Second year (13 games) 2,897 yards 18 TD. Third year (13 games experience) 3,836 yards 32 TD

Chad Pennington 2000-2001 had 25 total pass attempts over 2 years. Third year (first 12 games starting) 3,120 yards 22 TD

Here's what you actually posted on page 8 of this very thread:

RayNAustin wrote:Tom Brady, first year, instantly successful

Ben Roethlisberger first year 98.1

Peyton Manning, second year 90.7

Tony Romo first year 95.1

Jeff Garcia second year 97.6

Kurt Warner first year 109.2

Philip Rivers first year (4 games experience) 92.0

Mark Brunell first year (2 games experience) 82.0

Marc Bulger first year 101.5

Carson Palmer second year (13 games experience) 101.1

Chad Pennington first full year (3 games experience) 104.2

Steve McNair first year (4 games experience) 90.6

Now, who's making stuff up again?

Like I said it is not the scheme. Players just have to execute.

Think about it this way. Tom Brady just went down for the year for the Patriots.

Do you think there system will win them the Superbowl this year? I dont think so.

Its about players and players executing. All the coaches can do is prepare the team properly. Put the right players in place.

RayNAustin wrote:Wade Phillips took over as Coach and Romo saw his first action in 2006

Also, for the record, Phillips came to the Cowpies last season. Romo's first playing time came under Bill Parcells in 2006.

Also for the record, while Manning threw 26 TDs his first season as a starter, he also chucked 28 INTs, and the 4 games of his second season he had 10 TDs and 8 INTs.

Through 20 games, that's 36 TDs to 36 INTs. Through 20 games, Campbell has 22 TDs and 17 INTs.

Sure, Manning threw a lot more touchdowns (1.5x) but he also threw a lot more interceptions (2x).

Stupid Colts for sticking with Manning!

PulpExposure wrote:Also for the record, while Manning threw 26 TDs his first season as a starter, he also chucked 28 INTs, and the 4 games of his second season he had 10 TDs and 8 INTs.

Through 20 games, that's 36 TDs to 36 INTs. Through 20 games, Campbell has 22 TDs and 17 INTs.

Sure, Manning threw a lot more touchdowns (1.5x) but he also threw a lot more interceptions (2x).

Stupid Colts for sticking with Manning!

And Todd Collins was STILL sitting on the bench ... it's a league wide conspiracy!

Bob 0119 wrote:Okay boys and girls, remember to address the post...not the poster.

Having said that:

Campbell is not the only person on this offense that is learning a new system. That's the difference between he, and a good deal of the other "more successful" QBs in the league.

He has not had the luxury of entering a system where he was the only one who had to learn it.

I agree. That's an outstanding point. I think Zorn may possibly jump on JC quicker than he would a receiver because he is also the QB coach. What if the receiver runs the wrong route OR doesn't make the same read in coverage that the QB does (I'm assuming they read the coverage and adjust their routes). It would be hard for me to believe that EVERY other skill player EXCEPT for the QB has got the scheme down. So I think the answer to the thread question is, it's a little of both.

when talking about Collins everyone is forgetting the age plus mileage fact. Yes, Collins is 37 but he does not have much mileage on his arm due to the fact that he hasn't played in a while. Thats why Riggins was so good in his 30's even though most Rb's don't have jobs than. Thats why Eddie George was done by the time he was 28, there is also mileage to consider not just age, and thats a fact when evaluating a player. Because Riggins didn't run as much with the Jets due to the presents of Namath, and the fact he took a year off while with the Redskins, Riggo's mileage was not so good, so as a result Riggo was effective while in his early thirties. While Eddie was a huge workhorse at Ohio State winning the Heisman and than was running the ball 25-30 times a game from the get go at Tennesse, when Eddie reached 28, Eddie's body could not handle a full time workload anymore, while Riggins hit his prime in his early 30's. You have to remember Collins is in fact 37 but because of his mileage he is more like someone that is his early 30's. Thats a fact age plus mileage, not just age alone.

John Manfreda wrote:when talking about Collins everyone is forgetting the age plus mileage fact. Yes, Collins is 37 but he does not have much mileage on his arm due to the fact that he hasn't played in a while. Thats why Riggins was so good in his 30's even though most Rb's don't have jobs than. Thats why Eddie George was done by the time he was 28, there is also mileage to consider not just age, and thats a fact when evaluating a player. Because Riggins didn't run as much with the Jets due to the presents of Namath, and the fact he took a year off while with the Redskins, Riggo's mileage was not so good, so as a result Riggo was effective while in his early thirties. While Eddie was a huge workhorse at Ohio State winning the Heisman and than was running the ball 25-30 times a game from the get go at Tennesse, when Eddie reached 28, Eddie's body could not handle a full time workload anymore, while Riggins hit his prime in his early 30's. You have to remember Collins is in fact 37 but because of his mileage he is more like someone that is his early 30's. Thats a fact age plus mileage, not just age alone.

The other fact is that he's a career back up who's followed around 1 offensive coordinator for a decade. There's a reason he hasn't started...

Ray,

It's good to point out the stats in their first couple years for the Brady's, Manning's, Big Ben's, etc. but look at the teams around them. Big Ben had a ready made team right in front of him. That's why Faneca had a problem with him being a starter. They were right there with the rest of the team and you hand the keys to a rookie. Brady didn't spend alot of time on his back. The same with Romo, partly because he was not a statue like Bledsoe.

This whole thing is not Campbell by himself. The sporadic running game and poor pass protection plays a part in his troubles as well as any QBs troubles. If Campbell had all day like Romo did in the Cleveland game and he was still messing up then I'd be in agreement. But when the first play from scrimmage you got a DE getting penetration is a problem.

John Manfreda wrote:Because Riggins didn't run as much with the Jets due to the presents of Namath

Namath gave Riggins presents? Was it his birthday or something? Must have been a bycycle to keep him from having to run as much.

roybus14 wrote:Ray,

It's good to point out the stats in their first couple years for the Brady's, Manning's, Big Ben's, etc. but look at the teams around them. Big Ben had a ready made team right in front of him. That's why Faneca had a problem with him being a starter. They were right there with the rest of the team and you hand the keys to a rookie. Brady didn't spend alot of time on his back. The same with Romo, partly because he was not a statue like Bledsoe.

This whole thing is not Campbell by himself. The sporadic running game and poor pass protection plays a part in his troubles as well as any QBs troubles. If Campbell had all day like Romo did in the Cleveland game and he was still messing up then I'd be in agreement. But when the first play from scrimmage you got a DE getting penetration is a problem.

You had me until that last sentence. There was a great pocket on the first play. Campbell moved right, outside the huge pocket, and right into the defenders.

El Mexican wrote:Ray: Agreed. If we go 1-3 or 0-4 with Campbell playing the way he did against NY, Zorn will probably sit Campbell.

Colt won't start this year, we all know that. Even though you evidently see some really good things in the kid most of us don't.

JSP: Campbell has also sat like most of those other QBs he mentioned. He did not play a down his rookie year and seven games in 2006. So what was your point? Kinda lost me there a bit...

Well, I'm trying to show that this is his 4th year as a Redskin, 3rd year starting. Compared to other QBs who played in their rookie year, and second years and were very successful (common claim here is that it takes 3 years of grooming and learning a single system to be successful)

Campbell did not play all of these different "systems" often claimed. He played one system, Saunders system, and had two years and 20 games in it. That's similar to those who played in their rookie and second years and put up far more impressive numbers.

As for Colt, he is a young rookie, so chances are he'll make all of those rookie mistakes. However, in that list of players I posted, a few of them played in their rookie years and did pretty well (better than Campbell did in his second year starting in 2007). So this business about Brennan not even remotely considered an option is short sighted. What I like about him is he's a quick study (did well in pre season), and he has no fear. Has that gunslinger attitude that many great players have had. So I don't buy this business about him not being ready for a couple of years. How do you know unless you try...might as well give him a chance....god knows Campbell has been given ample opportunity to show us something.

Colt could bomb like a nuclear weapon, or explode like one. You just don't know. No one expected the young Kurt Warner to throw 41 TDs in his first year starting (his rookie year he had a grand total of 11 pass attempts so I don't consider that as a year of experience)

Peyton Manning had some big numbers in his rookie year (lots of mistakes too) but that just goes with the territory. Favre always had plenty of interceptions for most of his career, but he scored a whole bunch of points too. So a kid like Brennan (not that I'm saying he is another Manning or Favre) could surprise a lot of people. He just has that intangible "something" that great players have, and though there would most likely be growing pains with him as a rookie, how much worse could he be or the Redskins than Campbell's 2-5 record in 2006? So if Campbell goes 1-6 or 2-5 this year, we're pretty much out of the running early, so either make a change sooner (Collins) or start the kid since we'll have nothing to lose and everything to gain

Thundersloth wrote:I don't know if you've noticed that Al Saunders version of the WCO is NOT the same as the new JZ version. .

You're right, I didn't notice that, probably because Al Saunders doesn't run a West Coast Offense and we haven't seen Zorn's version yet.

Thundersloth wrote:The kind of WCO Zorny runs relys less on backs catching the ball than the old Bill Walsh version.

How do you know what kind of WCO Zorn runs? He's coached a grand total of one regular season game.

Thundersloth wrote:Shaun Alexander's most catches in a season in the WCO is 59, so they only threw to him about 3 times a game, most likely as a checkdown so backs catching the ball out of the backfield doesn't seem like a primary concern.

Oh, right, you're judging from what they did in Seattle. Well, the offense in Seattle was run by Mike Holgrem. It was Holgrems play book and Holgrems version of the WCO. Mike Holgrem called the plays, Zorn was the QB coach.

There are numerous versions of the West Coast system. Looking at one team tells you very little. But the fact remains that RB's used as receivers is very prevalent in a WCO, and Zorn has emphasized on this point several times. Just google the WCO and read up on it.

Thundersloth wrote:As far as throwing things out and having them stick, I've coached before so I see things like a coach (admittedly not at the NFL level). Looking at the situation, and having talked to a guy that coaches in the NFL who went to Georgetown, I get an idea of what's being said amongst NFL coaches. It's not a big secret the 2 least desireable head coaching jobs in the league are here in Washington and Oakland.

What does that have to do with a WCO, players needed to execute the system, or anything to do with this discussion? Looks like just a last ditch effort to take one more pop shot at the organization, as you've done several times throughout this thread. That isn't topic related and is different discussion entirely.

JSPB22 wrote:

John Manfreda wrote:Because Riggins didn't run as much with the Jets due to the presents of Namath

Namath gave Riggins presents? Was it his birthday or something? Must have been a bycycle to keep him from having to run as much.

Are you serious that you didn't understand the typo???? There is a point to what he is saying (and something I had never thought of myself), but regardless of that fact, we still cannot build on Collins.

The one thing I don't understand is the comments on typos around here. Man people need to get a life. It's like I have to spell check just to post on a message board. Jesus.