The-Hogs.net - Washington Football Discussion, Redskins to Commanders Era

Once again Mike Sellers lets down the offense by failing to get his 245lb frame a meager 3 ft for a 1st down or for that matter a td as he failed to do so on a few occasions this year. Against the G-Men and the Vikes he failed to get in. Where is Gerald Riggs when you need him

CampbellSoup17 wrote:Once again Mike Sellers lets down the offense by failing to get his 245lb frame a meager 3 ft for a 1st down or for that matter a td as he failed to do so on a few occasions this year. Against the G-Men and the Vikes he failed to get in. Where is Gerald Riggs when you need him

crazy post alert!

its not Sellers fault at all...look at how close he lines up to the line of scrimmage and think about where the Bucs use to put Alstot and where the G men put jacobs. Those guys start 6 yards off the ball and get a head of steam going...not to mention our o line is so injured they get pushed back 2 yards from the get go

I was disgusted when I finally turned the game off. Never quit attitude? Did you watch the same early game as I did? After the missed FG, the offense gave up. Heck, they didn't even play the 1st half! Thank Gregg Williams for the success of this season. I'm hoping that next season has more consistancy, whether it's good or bad. It's tough to judge a team that is as incosistant as we have been this year.

Vet, I am inclined to think those guys in a way fell apart after the missed FG. I don't blame them, I would, too.

chiefhog44 wrote:I gave it a day and the two things I said I would sleep on, I still believe to be true.

Mike Sellers really hurt us in Seattle, and I'm tired of Moss being on the team.

4th and 1...Sellers up the middle...he's got to make that play. He also had two penalties that really hurt us. Also dropped a first down ball.

And Moss...I'm sick of. I'm tired of his celebration after every first down. I'm tired of his lack of effort, I'm tired of his dropped balls ALL season, and I'm tired of his excuss as to why he's not in camp early with ey and JC working on routes. And did I mention his stats? 800 yards in a season with three TD's??? I'm not even sure how that stacks up to others, but I would guess not great. Can we get a number one in here please? Our passing attack has been the laughing stock of the league for a long time.

Moss is really not the problem, if you analyze it carefully. One could argue that Moss being less than 100% this year contributed to his poor numbers, and that might be a reasonable excuse.....BUT....there is enough history now to really draw some better conclusions.

Let's first look at Moss's numbers the last three regular season games in which Collins started OK........15 rec, 261 yards, 2 TD's (that includes the NYG game in horrible passing conditions). That averages out for a 16 game season to 80 rec, 1392 yds, 10 TD's very close to his numbers in 2005 which were outstanding.

Now, let's look at his numbers against Seattle.....6 rec, 68 yds, 1 TD. Combine that with Randle El's numbers in the Seattle game (huge)...10 rec. 94 yards, 1 TD. Both Moss and Randle El had great numbers against Seattle, in what could only be described as the WORST CASE scenario for a passing game this side of Custer's last stand.

The common denominator here regarding Moss's production is that in 2005 Brunell was the QB and had a decent year. In 2006, Brunell and Campbell split the season, and Moss's numbers went down dramatically. Most of us recognized that Moss was being taken out of most games with constant double coverage in 2006, and Lloyd failed to be the solid #2 we needed to free up Moss. In 2007, Campbell was the QB for 13 games, and Moss's numbers continued to decline, and Randle El became the #2.

Since the change at QB, Moss has caught a TD in every game except the NYG game, and his numbers are back in line with 2005.

Total numbers for Moss since Collins became the starter (4 games) are:

21 rec. 329 yds. 3 TD's averaged over a 16 game season would be :

84 rec. 1316 yards, 12 TD's.

A similar comparison could be made in all offensive categories across the board, and you will see that all of the numbers have increased dramatically since Collins became the starter. And his numbers in Seattle were actually very good.....much better than Hasselbec's. And he was under constant siege.

I'm not making this stuff up, fellas. These are the actual numbers, and it paints a pretty clear picture of WHY Moss wound up with 4 TD's this year.

The reason why we lost in Seattle is clear.....it wasn't the QB, and it wasn't Moss, and it wasn't one missed FG. And it certainly wasn't the defense. It was a complete whipping of the o-line for a combination of reasons....it was a makeshift o-line, a great d-line, and crowd noise, which held Portis to 2 yards per carry, and a pass rush that prevented at least two TD scores during the game.

This was set up much earlier in the year by squandering several games we should have won due to our inability to put points on the board with Campbell at QB.

But a lot of people here want to get rid of Moss....and Sellers and automatically give the ball back to Campbell??

What needs to happen for next year is to shore up the depth on the o-line's and get a complement DE to help Carter. Make Caldwell the #3 receiver, and give Lloyd another shot with a QB that can make freaking plays.

We also need more consistency at the punter position.

RayNAustin wrote:

chiefhog44 wrote:I gave it a day and the two things I said I would sleep on, I still believe to be true.

Mike Sellers really hurt us in Seattle, and I'm tired of Moss being on the team.

4th and 1...Sellers up the middle...he's got to make that play. He also had two penalties that really hurt us. Also dropped a first down ball.

And Moss...I'm sick of. I'm tired of his celebration after every first down. I'm tired of his lack of effort, I'm tired of his dropped balls ALL season, and I'm tired of his excuss as to why he's not in camp early with ey and JC working on routes. And did I mention his stats? 800 yards in a season with three TD's??? I'm not even sure how that stacks up to others, but I would guess not great. Can we get a number one in here please? Our passing attack has been the laughing stock of the league for a long time.

and give Lloyd another shot with a QB that can make freaking plays.
quote]

Why?](*,)](*,)

What QB are you talking about?

Why on Earth does anyone believe that Lloyd will ever amount to anything?

That is almost as crazy as saying Sellers should be replaced.

Sure the passing game wasn't clicking that well early, but both in 06 and 07 other WRs made plays. It is retarded to think that Lloyd is such a special WR that he needs a perfect QB to be succesful or maybe that is what he needs. He should go to NE. Brady can make any bum look good. Then again, Lloyde would be behind Moss, Welker, Stalworth, and Gafney, and would never get any playing time.

skinsfan#33 wrote:

RayNAustin wrote:

chiefhog44 wrote:I gave it a day and the two things I said I would sleep on, I still believe to be true.

Mike Sellers really hurt us in Seattle, and I'm tired of Moss being on the team.

4th and 1...Sellers up the middle...he's got to make that play. He also had two penalties that really hurt us. Also dropped a first down ball.

And Moss...I'm sick of. I'm tired of his celebration after every first down. I'm tired of his lack of effort, I'm tired of his dropped balls ALL season, and I'm tired of his excuss as to why he's not in camp early with ey and JC working on routes. And did I mention his stats? 800 yards in a season with three TD's??? I'm not even sure how that stacks up to others, but I would guess not great. Can we get a number one in here please? Our passing attack has been the laughing stock of the league for a long time.

and give Lloyd another shot with a QB that can make freaking plays.
quote]

Why?](*,)](*,)

What QB are you talking about?

Why on Earth does anyone believe that Lloyd will ever amount to anything?

That is almost as crazy as saying Sellers should be replaced.

Sure the passing game wasn't clicking that well early, but both in 06 and 07 other WRs made plays. It is retarded to think that Lloyd is such a special WR that he needs a perfect QB to be succesful or maybe that is what he needs. He should go to NE. Brady can make any bum look good. Then again, Lloyde would be behind Moss, Welker, Stalworth, and Gafney, and would never get any playing time.

That's not the full story here. Lloyd barely sniffed the field this year even with all of the injuries. Last year the production was way down across the board....Moss included....and he was the primary go to guy.

This year, Moss numbers were even worse. Caldwell played in only 8 games this year, even with all of the injuries, and in the last 2 games, he matched his production for the previous 6 games. He had 9 rec in 6 games, and 6 rec in the last two.

Given the dramatic increase in production across the board over the last 1/4 of the season with Collins, we cannot automatically assume that Lloyd's production wouldn't have increased like everyone else's has.

I'm not trying to be a Lloyd fan here or proposing to give him some special treatment. I'm of the belief that we have already committed the big money to him....and he will be a big cap hit whether we play him or cut him. We can't trade him, because he has no trade value. So, give him the preseason to show something....restructure his deal to reflect his value, or then, if he doesn't show up, and he won't take a big cut in pay, then release him. But just don't arbitrarily release him and take the cap hit without at least trying to get some value back on the investment.

He is young, and does have talent, and he might produce if put in the right situation.

That's not crazy. That's just trying to recoup some value out of a poor decision that was made to sign him for big money to begin with.

RayNAustin wrote:

skinsfan#33 wrote:

RayNAustin wrote:

chiefhog44 wrote:I gave it a day and the two things I said I would sleep on, I still believe to be true.

Mike Sellers really hurt us in Seattle, and I'm tired of Moss being on the team.

4th and 1...Sellers up the middle...he's got to make that play. He also had two penalties that really hurt us. Also dropped a first down ball.

And Moss...I'm sick of. I'm tired of his celebration after every first down. I'm tired of his lack of effort, I'm tired of his dropped balls ALL season, and I'm tired of his excuss as to why he's not in camp early with ey and JC working on routes. And did I mention his stats? 800 yards in a season with three TD's??? I'm not even sure how that stacks up to others, but I would guess not great. Can we get a number one in here please? Our passing attack has been the laughing stock of the league for a long time.

and give Lloyd another shot with a QB that can make freaking plays.
quote]

Why?](*,)](*,)

What QB are you talking about?

Why on Earth does anyone believe that Lloyd will ever amount to anything?

That is almost as crazy as saying Sellers should be replaced.

Sure the passing game wasn't clicking that well early, but both in 06 and 07 other WRs made plays. It is retarded to think that Lloyd is such a special WR that he needs a perfect QB to be succesful or maybe that is what he needs. He should go to NE. Brady can make any bum look good. Then again, Lloyde would be behind Moss, Welker, Stalworth, and Gafney, and would never get any playing time.

That's not the full story here. Lloyd barely sniffed the field this year even with all of the injuries. Last year the production was way down across the board....Moss included....and he was the primary go to guy.

Lloyd was the #2 WR for most of the year and still got out produced by the #3 guy (ARE). Lloyd had plenty of chances. Was the QB situation good? No.

RayNAustin wrote:This year, Moss numbers were even worse. Caldwell played in only 8 games this year, even with all of the injuries, and in the last 2 games, he matched his production for the previous 6 games. He had 9 rec in 6 games, and 6 rec in the last two.

You left out the fact that he was the fourth or fifth WR during that span (behind even Lloyd in a couple of those games). Caldwell was on the field even less than Lloyd during the first ten games.

RayNAustin wrote:
Given the dramatic increase in production across the board over the last 1/4 of the season with Collins, we cannot automatically assume that Lloyd's production wouldn't have increased like everyone else's has.

First, Collins didn't have "dramatically" better numbers than Campbell, he just didn't turn the ball over and actually connected on long passes. But his yardage numbers aren't that far from Campbell.
Second, Caldwell's numbers increased because he earned more playing time. I know, that is a alien thought to Lloyd supporters, but people get more playing time when they perform and less when they don't.

RayNAustin wrote:I'm not trying to be a Lloyd fan here or proposing to give him some special treatment. I'm of the belief that we have already committed the big money to him....and he will be a big cap hit whether we play him or cut him. We can't trade him, because he has no trade value. So, give him the preseason to show something....restructure his deal to reflect his value, or then, if he doesn't show up, and he won't take a big cut in pay, then release him. But just don't arbitrarily release him and take the cap hit without at least trying to get some value back on the investment.

He is young, and does have talent, and he might produce if put in the right situation.

That's not crazy. That's just trying to recoup some value out of a poor decision that was made to sign him for big money to begin with.

Here is where I differ from you. I think he would hurt the team if they bring him back, even more than taking his cap hit, which they can put most of it off until 09. Ever heard of the "one bad apple" theory. Besides He has burned too many bridges. Both here and in San Fran and in SF he actually was somewhat productive. He has TO/Randy Moss baggage with Freddie Mitchell ability, not a good combo!

spudstr04 wrote:when I try to talk Skins...i hear Deadskins this and that...

I do get around!

CampbellSoup17 wrote:Once again Mike Sellers lets down the offense by failing to get his 245lb frame a meager 3 ft for a 1st down or for that matter a td as he failed to do so on a few occasions this year. Against the G-Men and the Vikes he failed to get in. Where is Gerald Riggs when you need him

Where is an OL when you need one? I would ask instead.

No runner, no matter how strong or heavy, or talented and agile, is a substitute for an OL.

But since we are in the process of cleaning house from scapegoats, we might as well get rid of Clinton and Ladell as well since our running game got nowhere. Instead, we should leave the OL INTACT, Right?

My, my my ...

skinsfan#33 wrote:He has TO/Randy Moss baggage with Freddie Mitchell ability, not a good combo!

great analysis. One thing about Moss is his hands. He did well catching MB04 and did well catching throws from Collins. He seems to have trouble with JC's fastball. He has to work with JC in the offseason to get used to the hard throws. If that happens Moss will again be a 1400 yd receiver.

skinsfan#33 wrote:First, Collins didn't have "dramatically" better numbers than Campbell, he just didn't turn the ball over and actually connected on long passes. But his yardage numbers aren't that far from Campbell.
Second, Caldwell's numbers increased because he earned more playing time. I know, that is a alien thought to Lloyd supporters, but people get more playing time when they perform and less when they don't.

First, yes he did. Averaged 7 points per game more (Which is a huge difference statistically, and would have resulted in a 14 win year) and his QB rating over 100, second only to Brady, compared to Campbell's 77 tells a different story.

Second, I'm no Lloyd fan per se, just honest about what happened. It doesn't matter how many games you play in, nor if you are listed as the #2, #3, or #4 receiver. What matters is how many balls come your way. You can participate on every down and not get the ball.

Of course the come back is "he has to get open". And of course my comeback would be that Campbell missed a lot of open receivers, considering that his main target (Moss) numbers were way down. Campbell focused on Moss 1st, y 2nd, and rarely got passed those two. ARE's production only increased when Moss was OUT or blanketed in coverage.

And maybe this will come as a shock to you, but instead of posting opinion and passing it off as fact, you should check the actual facts, OK. In 2006, ARE's and Lloyds numbers were very similar, except that ARE started all 16 games as compared to Lloyd's 12 games.

Lloyd 12 games 23 rec. 365 yards
ARE 16 games 32 rec. 351 yards

skinsfan#33 wrote:Here is where I differ from you. I think he would hurt the team if they bring him back, even more than taking his cap hit, which they can put most of it off until 09. Ever heard of the "one bad apple" theory. Besides He has burned too many bridges. Both here and in San Fran and in SF he actually was somewhat productive. He has TO/Randy Moss baggage with Freddie Mitchell ability, not a good combo!

SF has nothing to do with us. And I saw the interviews with players who had nothing bad to say about Lloyd. He had support in the locker room, so the "bad apple" thing is a figment of your imagination.

Now he obviously has issues with some on the coaching staff, no doubt due to lack of production. But maybe that lack of production ain't on him, and the gripe not completely legit? Has that ever crossed your mind?

Although his numbers in SF were better, they were nothing great, and should never have commanded the money offered him. But that's not his fault. Would you say no....I don't think I deserve that much money?

The same argument can be said of Patten. Go check out his numbers in NO this year. They equal Moss's this year. Then look at his miserable numbers (worse than Lloyds) with us.

With all of the injuries this year, it took half a year before Caldwell ever got a chance. Lloyd got demoted (even though his numbers were similar to ARE last year), and on top of it, he got virtually no chance this year. Could it be that maybe we just didn't utilize him properly? Could it be in hindsight now that we didn't recognize Collins talent properly?

For every good personnel move this team has made over the past 4 years, there's at least an equal number of bad ones, and not just on offense.

Arrington, Peirce, Clark, Harris, (allowing Holdman to play in place of Arrington) ARCHULETTA......

Want some more?

So what part of this makes this staff so foolproof in their handling of players and talent?

LOSTHOG wrote: ... One thing about Moss is his hands. He did well catching Brunell and did well catching throws from Collins. He seems to have trouble with JC's fastball. He has to work with JC in the offseason to get used to the hard throws. If that happens Moss will again be a 1400 yd receiver.

Last off-season we all were led to believe that Moss and Campbell were going to work together "extensively" according to Campbell and "do whatever it takes" to be a better combo this year - why is that going to change and why are we not going to have Lloyd also get in that mix as he is already here? Campbell should not be deciding who he wants to get familiar with - he should be trying to get familiar with anybody and everybody that he is likely to throw to IMO

I want to see this QB really step up the effort to be the greatest QB ever next year.

SkinsJock wrote:

LOSTHOG wrote: ... One thing about Moss is his hands. He did well catching Brunell and did well catching throws from Collins. He seems to have trouble with JC's fastball. He has to work with JC in the offseason to get used to the hard throws. If that happens Moss will again be a 1400 yd receiver.

Last off-season we all were led to believe that Moss and Campbell were going to work together "extensively" according to Campbell and "do whatever it takes" to be a better combo this year - why is that going to change and why are we not going to have Lloyd also get in that mix as he is already here? Campbell should not be deciding who he wants to get familiar with - he should be trying to get familiar with anybody and everybody that he is likely to throw to IMO

I want to see this QB really step up the effort to be the greatest QB ever next year.

Didn't Moss and Campbell not work out together because Moss hurt his groin?

I don't think there is a problem with Moss's hands. He's a A level NFL receiver. If anything, catching Brunnel and Collins proves that. It's much more difficult for a receiver to adjust to lefty versus righty spin on the ball rather than a velocity issue.

If velocity on the ball was a problem, it would show up in the flat, quick slants and outside screens....but not down field. I don't care how strong Campbell's arm is, it' not going to be a problem for an NFL receiver, running a 20 yard pattern. The notion is ridiculous. How many wide receiver screens has Moss caught? A ton!

The problem down field is ball placement, and arc, not velocity. You throw inside on an out or outside on a post and you're gonna give your receivers trouble. And on a deep ball, you need to put some air under it to allow he receiver to adjust.

I've watched Campbell closely. And he is streaky with his accuracy. Sometimes he's on the money for several throws, but then it gets away from him, throwing a lot of high fast balls (very difficult to catch and very dangerous if they aren't caught). Sometimes he throws to the wrong shoulder, and doesn't lead the receiver accurately. And his deep balls tend to be too flat (which explains all of the overthrows).

A good example of what I'm saying is the TD pass to Moss in Seattle. That was no high floater he ran under, that was a tight spiral, a bit too flat if truth be told, but Collins led him to the inside and was right dead on the money. A perfect throw, and from a QB that had been under siege all game long.

That far down field there is no discernible difference in catch-ability as it relates to velocity between Collins or Campbell or Favre for that matter (known as one of the hardest throwers ever). It's all about placement. The ball was led inside and out of reach of the defender, and hit Moss in stride. If that ball were thrown right at Moss on a rope, It would either be defended, overthrown, or difficult as hell to catch because the ball can drift a liitle to either side requiring last second adjustment on a dead sprint.

And these are the things that I've seen Campbell miss more often than not, and you only get those kinds of chances once or twice per game. Hit those passes, and you score, miss them and you're left with "if only..."

With another offseason full of study I'm sure that Jason will show marked improvement again.

Hopefully this time the WR's will make even more of an effort to spend time with Jason. I'd like to see Rece get resigned quickly to help this effort. I'm sure that A. Mix will be available for tons of offseason reps with Jason.

Redskin in Canada wrote:

CampbellSoup17 wrote:Once again Mike Sellers lets down the offense by failing to get his 245lb frame a meager 3 ft for a 1st down or for that matter a td as he failed to do so on a few occasions this year. Against the G-Men and the Vikes he failed to get in. Where is Gerald Riggs when you need him

Where is an OL when you need one? I would ask instead.

No runner, no matter how strong or heavy, or talented and agile, is a substitute for an OL.

But since we are in the process of cleaning house from scapegoats, we might as well get rid of Clinton and Ladell as well since our running game got nowhere. Instead, we should leave the OL INTACT, Right?

My, my my ...

If it was just that one rushing play for a half a yard for first down...then I would agree. Couple it with a dropped first down pass, and two VERY costly penalties, then I get pissed. I never said to cut him. I just think Sellers really hurt us in this game.

spudstr04 wrote:I would say that the Special Teams deserves some blame on a lot of the game...two penalties after Cartwright runs it into Seahawks' territory...Frost sucked the entire game....Suisham missed a gimme FG, that would have kept momentum on our side....overall, I think we just ran out of gas after those 14 straight points and when they saw the FG miss, the team's morale dropped

i,m with ya the special teams was the weakest link and it showed especially with the field goal kicker and the punter frost.for three quarters i saw the team had a hard time getting into it for the first 3 quarters but the 4th quarter was what i was expecting for the entire game but it wasn,t meant to be i guess..they ran out of gas thats for sure but i comend their efforts and played very hard with alot of effort toward the end of the season. yeah it seemed that team morale dropped after that chip shot FG.
the 12th man didn,t bother them too much but i think in all reality they just hit a wall ..