Since when is a QBs ability measured by his ability to change events that happaned in the past?? Can any QB "turn around history"??? Does Campbell have these super-human powers Brunell lacks??
Look at any professional sport. Once players start getting hurt on an annual basis they don't just stop getting hurt all of a sudden. Some guys are more injury prone than others and Brunell appears to be in that category
Nobody imagined Portis getting 1500 yards nobody imagined Santana getting 1400+ yards Nobody imagined us being the best in the east nobody imageind us going to the playoffs nobody imagined gibbs staying
Anybody is a liability to injury. His injury would have hampered any QB on our roster. Kyle Bollers mechanics were effected by a toe injury, any little thing can effect a QB of ANY age.
People seem to blame Brunell for our loss to SEA and thats 110% ignorant.
Nobody imagined Portis running for 1500 yards? That's what he was doing in Denver and that's why we traded so much to get him. He did exactly what he should be doing.
Sure nobody saw Moss getting those yards but he was a former first round pick and the potential was always there.
We finished second in the East.
Gibbs signed a 5 year contract so I'm not sure who you're referring to when you say that people didn't expect him to stay 5 years.
You're right most people didn't expect us to make the playoffs.
However, none of these things that you've mentioned have anything to do with Brunell staying healthy. Looking at a player's durability and injury history isn't exactly rocket science. If a player has only started a full season twice in 14 years then it's pretty rediculous to assume that at the age of 36 Brunell can suddenly turn around his injury history and stay healthy for a Super Bowl run. Going back to your previous examples....Portis had a history of racking up 1500 yard seasons, just like Brunell has a history of getting injured.
My comment was totally on point. You said you can't imagine Brunell...
Just like you, people from ESPN, FOX and everywhere else couldn't IMAGINE THE THINGS I LISTED.
What you IMAGINE and what Gibbs, Saunders etc see in practice film and game film are two different things. You imagine Jason is going to be an upgrade, you imagine he's ready, you imagine Brunell can't do the job just like everyone imagined the same thing last year.
John Manfreda wrote:He was given a chance during the preseason and look horrible. Who's fault is that? Rothersburger looked horrible in the preseason also, I think he did okay. Or maybe its just me, so did Hasselback. Presiason doesn't mean anyhting anyone that has half a brain knows that.
I guess Gibbs is half a brain like me. Preseason/camp was Ramseys chance to prove himself. NOT THE REGULAR SEASON. During his CHANCE to win the job HE DID NOT WIN IT. Your problem isn't with me, its with Gibbs and looked how his decision turned out. Thats why he's where he's at.
Stop comparing Ramsey to everyone else and judge him on his performances.
According to no less an authority than Gibbs himself, Ramsey did win the starting position in pre-season and was therefore selected to start against the Bears. Further note: he also had a better game against the Bears than did Brunell.
Ramsey in less than a half: over 100 yds passing, 1 TD pass (called back). Brunell in almost three quarters: 85 yds, 0 TD's)
Since when is a QBs ability measured by his ability to change events that happaned in the past?? Can any QB "turn around history"??? Does Campbell have these super-human powers Brunell lacks??
Look at any professional sport. Once players start getting hurt on an annual basis they don't just stop getting hurt all of a sudden. Some guys are more injury prone than others and Brunell appears to be in that category
Statistically, sure, there's a bigger chance that Brunell could get hurt, but who's to say he WON'T finish all 19 games??? Give the man a shot before you declare him an invalid. The season hasn't even begun, and people here think we're flushing it down the tubes with a Pro Bowl QB under center.
Since when is a QBs ability measured by his ability to change events that happaned in the past?? Can any QB "turn around history"??? Does Campbell have these super-human powers Brunell lacks??
Look at any professional sport. Once players start getting hurt on an annual basis they don't just stop getting hurt all of a sudden. Some guys are more injury prone than others and Brunell appears to be in that category
You make it sound like he's getting hurt from the wind blowing on him too hard. He had a DT smash into his knee. Can you say that Ramsey and Jason would not have been hobbled also? Brunell was left in there because he's still smarter with the ball than both Jason and Ramsey.
IF Ramsey was intelligent with his decision making then I believe he should/would have been left in for the duration of the season.
John Manfreda wrote:He was given a chance during the preseason and look horrible. Who's fault is that? Rothersburger looked horrible in the preseason also, I think he did okay. Or maybe its just me, so did Hasselback. Presiason doesn't mean anyhting anyone that has half a brain knows that.
I guess Gibbs is half a brain like me. Preseason/camp was Ramseys chance to prove himself. NOT THE REGULAR SEASON. During his CHANCE to win the job HE DID NOT WIN IT. Your problem isn't with me, its with Gibbs and looked how his decision turned out. Thats why he's where he's at.
Stop comparing Ramsey to everyone else and judge him on his performances.
According to no less an authority than Gibbs himself, Ramsey did win the starting position in pre-season and was therefore selected to start against the Bears. Further note: he also had a better game against the Bears than did Brunell. Ramsey in less than a half: over 100 yds passing, 1 TD pass (called back). Brunell in almost three quarters: 85 yds, 0 TD's)
If Ramsey truely won the preseason he would have been put back in. We all saw how bad he looked. We all saw that Brunell played better. Gibbs gave the boy enough rope to hang himself. Dont forget the pick that Ramsey threw.
You know, the value of Ramsey is an interesting thought. Prior to this offseason, I was sure we would get a 3rd rounder for him.
But then the QB market became glutted with decent QBs. Value plummeted.
Drew Brees as a free agent QB? A probowler like him (young), that doesn't happen often at all.
Dante Culpepper going for a 2nd round pick?
If Dante was worth a 2nd rounder, there is no way Ramsey is worth a 3rd rounder. So I'm not too surprised we got less...disappointed, definately, but not surprised.
SkinzCanes wrote:Nobody imagined Portis running for 1500 yards? That's what he was doing in Denver and that's why we traded so much to get him. He did exactly what he should be doing.
Nobody but Skins fans felt that way. They said he'd fail. He hit 1300 which was great and they called him a failure. In the preseason they said he'd have another failing year. All of that was said here on Earth.
SkinzCanes wrote:Sure nobody saw Moss getting those yards but he was a former first round pick and the potential was always there.
ESPN? Fox? Again only we thought he could pull it off and none of us expected what we got.
SkinzCanes wrote:We finished second in the East.
I dont care where we finished statistically, we were the BEST team at the end of the season. There was NOT a team that could be us in our division.
SkinzCanes wrote:Gibbs signed a 5 year contract so I'm not sure who you're referring to when you say that people didn't expect him to stay 5 years.
Do you look at Sportscenter or even read the forums? You never saw the speculation of Gibbs going back to Nascar?
SkinzCanes wrote:Check your stats. Brunell had 6 fumles in 2004 (3 lost) and 11 fumbles last season (6 lost).
According to ESPN's page is what I used. But according to NFL.com, you're right. And Ramsey according to NFL.com had 8 fumbles, 2 lost in those 2 years (while none according to ESPN).
Not sure why there's such a discrepancy. But the TD ratio still exists, and it's massive.
My apologies. I should have realized we were working with different printed figures. Not only are these sources unreliable, they are not actually all inclusive enough, especially in re to actual snaps played, to be more than rough tools difficult to handle meaningfully. Keep up the good work, nevertheless.
SkinzCanes wrote:Check your stats. Brunell had 6 fumles in 2004 (3 lost) and 11 fumbles last season (6 lost).
According to ESPN's page is what I used. But according to NFL.com, you're right. And Ramsey according to NFL.com had 8 fumbles, 2 lost in those 2 years (while none according to ESPN).
Not sure why there's such a discrepancy. But the TD ratio still exists, and it's massive.
Ramsey never got too many chances to throw to Moss, for one. It's unfair to compare Brunell's stats for this season (when the whole offense took a huge step forward) to Ramsey's stats from the past. When they both had significant playing time and threw to the same personnel in '04, Ramsey was clearly better. As for '05, Ramsey never really got a shot - what happens in preseason is nothing. Even Peyton Manning had a poor preseason, and took 2+ regular season games to re-establish his timing and touch with his receivers.
You make it sound like he's getting hurt from the wind blowing on him too hard. He had a DT smash into his knee. Can you say that Ramsey and Jason would not have been hobbled also? Brunell was left in there because he's still smarter with the ball than both Jason and Ramsey.
IF Ramsey was intelligent with his decision making then I believe he should/would have been left in for the duration of the season.
Brunell in 2004 could barely complete a pass because of his hamstring injury. Yes I think that a younger qb could've recovered quicker and used his arm stength to overcome that type of injury. Last year Brunell did get hit hard but that type of hit isn't uncommon in the NFL. Same thing happened to Big Ben in week 5. Brunell is by no means a gimp but over the last 2 seasons it's become clear that when he isn't 100% his performace drops drastically.
SkinzCanes wrote:Brunell in 2004 could barely complete a pass because of his hamstring injury.
You are right but Im talking about 2005. If we're going to bring up 04 lets talk about 1992 also.
SkinzCanes wrote:Yes I think that a younger qb could've recovered quicker and used his arm stength to overcome that type of injury.
I agree that a younger guy can recover more quickly. But with the options we had in 2005 he was still the best choice.
Arm strength is NOTHING without accuracy and good decision making, look at Ramsey. Yeah he can throw it 1 billion miles a second but its being intercepted too.
SkinzCanes wrote:Last year Brunell did get hit hard but that type of hit isn't uncommon in the NFL.
I wouldn't call it common because we'd see a lot more QB's go down. It is now outlawed.
His performance in the post season was not all because of his injury. Can you honestly sit here and say that having no WR's to throw was not a bigger problem?
Crazyhorse your got to get over Ramsey, he's not here anymore. I like him too and think he will do well in New YOrk, but if Gibbs doesn't like him than it won't work out. Rich Gannon did well because Gruden believed in him. That was the diffrence between him and the other coaches he had.
Last edited by John Manfreda on Thu Mar 30, 2006 2:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
John Manfreda wrote:He was given a chance during the preseason and look horrible. Who's fault is that? Rothersburger looked horrible in the preseason also, I think he did okay. Or maybe its just me, so did Hasselback. Presiason doesn't mean anyhting anyone that has half a brain knows that.
I guess Gibbs is half a brain like me. Preseason/camp was Ramseys chance to prove himself. NOT THE REGULAR SEASON. During his CHANCE to win the job HE DID NOT WIN IT. Your problem isn't with me, its with Gibbs and looked how his decision turned out. Thats why he's where he's at.
Stop comparing Ramsey to everyone else and judge him on his performances.
According to no less an authority than Gibbs himself, Ramsey did win the starting position in pre-season and was therefore selected to start against the Bears. Further note: he also had a better game against the Bears than did Brunell. Ramsey in less than a half: over 100 yds passing, 1 TD pass (called back). Brunell in almost three quarters: 85 yds, 0 TD's)
If Ramsey truely won the preseason he would have been put back in. We all saw how bad he looked. We all saw that Brunell played better. Gibbs gave the boy enough rope to hang himself. Dont forget the pick that Ramsey threw.
According to post game reports, Thrash (I believe it was), cut the wrong way. Ramsey absolved of blame.
I wouldn't call it common because we'd see a lot more QB's go down. It is now outlawed.
His performance in the post season was not all because of his injury. Can you honestly sit here and say that having no WR's to throw was not a bigger problem?
Chris I respect your opinions greatly but I think we are just going to have to agree to disagree on this. Brunell has the talent to take us all the way but I am just too skeptical of his age/health. Hopefully he can stay healthy and prove me wrong and I'll be happy about eating crow if that happens.
You did bring up an interesting point in your last post about the way Brunell's injury occured. Is that actually illegal now? The way I understand the new rule is that defensive players cant purposely hit a qb low but if they are pushed or that is the only way to get to the qb it is ok. Am I wrong there? I also cant seem to remember who it was that hit Brunell and under what circumstances.
John Manfreda wrote:He was given a chance during the preseason and look horrible. Who's fault is that? Rothersburger looked horrible in the preseason also, I think he did okay. Or maybe its just me, so did Hasselback. Presiason doesn't mean anyhting anyone that has half a brain knows that.
I guess Gibbs is half a brain like me. Preseason/camp was Ramseys chance to prove himself. NOT THE REGULAR SEASON. During his CHANCE to win the job HE DID NOT WIN IT. Your problem isn't with me, its with Gibbs and looked how his decision turned out. Thats why he's where he's at.
Stop comparing Ramsey to everyone else and judge him on his performances.
According to no less an authority than Gibbs himself, Ramsey did win the starting position in pre-season and was therefore selected to start against the Bears. Further note: he also had a better game against the Bears than did Brunell. Ramsey in less than a half: over 100 yds passing, 1 TD pass (called back). Brunell in almost three quarters: 85 yds, 0 TD's)
If Ramsey truely won the preseason he would have been put back in. We all saw how bad he looked. We all saw that Brunell played better. Gibbs gave the boy enough rope to hang himself. Dont forget the pick that Ramsey threw.
Brunell spent the entire pre-season throwing against scrubs who were going to be cut. On the other hand, Gibbs allowed the first team about 6 different vanilla plays per game and started pulling Portis and others by the end of the first series. The pre-season proved nothing and wasn't meant, by Gibbs, to prove anything. He hasn't changed his M.O. Expect nothing again in pre-season this year, like always, under Gibbs.
crazyhorse1 wrote:Brunell spent the entire pre-season throwing against scrubs who were going to be cut. On the other hand, Gibbs allowed the first team about 6 different vanilla plays per game and started pulling Portis and others by the end of the first series. The pre-season proved nothing and wasn't meant, by Gibbs, to prove anything. He hasn't changed his M.O. Expect nothing again in pre-season this year, like always, under Gibbs.
Ok, Brunell played against sribs and looked good.
Ramsey played starters and looked bad.
Result = Ramsey looks bad. I see the point you're getting at but who cares at this point?
SkinzCanes wrote:Chris I respect your opinions greatly but I think we are just going to have to agree to disagree on this. Brunell has the talent to take us all the way but I am just too skeptical of his age/health. Hopefully he can stay healthy and prove me wrong and I'll be happy about eating crow if that happens.
Dont pay me any mind, sometimes I like to debate. I understand your end.
SkinzCanes wrote:You did bring up an interesting point in your last post about the way Brunell's injury occured. Is that actually illegal now? The way I understand the new rule is that defensive players cant purposely hit a qb low but if they are pushed or that is the only way to get to the qb it is ok. Am I wrong there? I also cant seem to remember who it was that hit Brunell and under what circumstances.
I dont remeber the circumstance but just that he got hit low. With Carsons injury they're putting a leash on how you can hit the QB. Sooner more than later we'll be playing 2 hand tag.
Chris Luva Luva wrote:His performance in the post season was not all because of his injury. Can you honestly sit here and say that having no WR's to throw was not a bigger problem?
Brunell had it no worse than Jake Delhomme, who posted better numbers down in Carolina. JD had Steve Smith (Pro Bowl, just like Moss), and who else? And how'd Hasselback post better numbers and get to the Pro Bowl without a single receiver (counting both TE and WR) in the top 30? You say Brunell had Moss and ey and nothing else, but lots of QBs did better with less.
A parting comment (for now). I am, in fact, trying to get over my man, Ramsey, and will be better bye and bye.
In the meantime, I have a prediction that may surpise: If Brunell doesn't tire out, and doesn't get hurt, I would be very surprised NOT to wind up in the SB. When he's in perfect shape, and I emphasize "perfect" I actually consider him to be one of the best qb's in the game and a good fit for us.
I think in a ideal situation he's as good as a Manning or Brady and that if he had been less injury prone and/or better able to play with injury that he would now be a viable candidate for the H of F. I think he's more naturally talented that Young, for instance, as well as any number of other. I would love to see him prove it all this year.
I don't see the problem with Gibbs making Campell earn the No.2 spot, Gibbs always makes his Qb's earn there way to the top, he always has Qb contoversies. Jay and Doug, Doug and Rypien, Ramsey and Mark, now Campell and Collins for the no.2. He won 3 superbowls and turned the Skins around this time with that formula, why stop and change. You stick with what works. Gibbs doesn't want the most talented Qb's he wants the mentally toughest Qb's. I am not going to say Ramsey isn't mentally tough because I think he is, he just didn't like his decision making.
Chris Luva Luva wrote:His performance in the post season was not all because of his injury. Can you honestly sit here and say that having no WR's to throw was not a bigger problem?
Brunell had it no worse than Jake Delhomme, who posted better numbers down in Carolina. JD had Steve Smith (Pro Bowl, just like Moss), and who else? And how'd Hasselback post better numbers and get to the Pro Bowl without a single receiver (counting both TE and WR) in the top 30? You say Brunell had Moss and ey and nothing else, but lots of QBs did better with less.
MH - You dont need stars to be good. You need guys who can produce and they need to be household names. For an example: Redskins defense.
Engram, Bobby
Hackett, D.J.
Jackson, Darrell
They have at least 2 competent WR's while we only had ONE.
JD - Proehl is better than both Jacobs and Thrash. He's not a WR you can simply ignore and did for SS what DP did for Moss.
Brunell didn't have Moss starting around the Eagles game. ey was taken out completely in the Eagles game. Neither of those two guys were allowed to make an impact during the Bucs game, the defense and a dropped pass bailed us out.
John Manfreda wrote:I don't see the problem with Gibbs making Campell earn the No.2 spot, Gibbs always makes his Qb's earn there way to the top, he always has Qb contoversies. Jay and Doug, Doug and Rypien, Ramsey and Mark, now Campell and Collins for the no.2. He won 3 superbowls and turned the Skins around this time with that formula, why stop and change. You stick with what works. Gibbs doesn't want the most talented Qb's he wants the mentally toughest Qb's. I am not going to say Ramsey isn't mentally tough because I think he is, he just didn't like his decision making.
Ive been saying that for the past 4 pages, none of it seems to matter here.
It seems that if we draft a kid, he automatically needs/deserves to play regardless.
ey and nothing else, but lots of QBs did better with less.
