The-Hogs.net - Washington Football Discussion, Redskins to Commanders Era

I think that Jason Campbell will give this offense a real fresh look in 2006. We need a fresh start and he will provide a whole new look for this offense. CAMPBELL in 2006!!!

I don't think the blame should all fall on Brunell, when Patten went down it really let the other teams’ D shift coverage more Moss and ey's way. We have a running weapon in "Portis" and for the last half of the year only 2 receiving threats "Cooley & Moss" We really need a third WR to bring back the old Posse type threat (Monk, Sanders & Clark). If that WR is Patten time will only tell (his stats in the Denver Game say yes to me) if he’s not then find someone via the draft or free agency (please no one suggest TO). This will really open up Gibbs playbook and obviously boost Brunell's game too.

PulpExposure wrote:

The Hogster wrote:

gilbertarenas wrote:

The Hogster wrote:After watching the Bears loose at home we now see that of all the quarterbacks in the playoffs this year, only one, Ben Rothlesberger is under 30 years old.

And there are no qbs who are over 35.

Read first dude...the posts are talking about Campbell taking over..so I am saying it may not be a great idea, as some have suggested, to put him in just yet.

So...this begs the question. Do we not start him until he's 30?

I mean, I understand the point you're trying to make. But if he's 18 or 30, there comes some point where a new quarterback has to start a playoff game.

Of course you are right, in order for a quarterback to gain playoff experience he has to play in a playoff game at some point. But the team has only had 2 playoff games since Ramsey has been here. My only thoughts though are specifically focused on the Redskins.

1) Gibbs has not favored young quarterbacks historically. That doesn't mean he won't go with Campbell (after listening to the interview on Redskins.com Gibbs sounds very confident that Campbell can start for us)

2) Gibbs has said he wants to win a Superbowl and he is on a 5 year contract. While Campbell may be capable, I am just wondering whether Campbell will get in there soon, barring an injury.

Certainly if Ramsey is traded or released then Campbell will compete with Mark for the starting job and who knows what will happen.

Hogfather wrote:I don't think the blame should all fall on Brunell

I don't anyone is "blaming" Brunell, he was the come back King this year compared to last year. But I think most of us don't believe we can go any further with Brunell, he's done a good job but it's time to look at the future of the Redskins.

Me personally i like Ramsey, I think Brunell is on his last straw. I voted for Campell because Gibbs obviously doesn't like Ramsey and Brunell's age I think is showing now. Campell won by default.

my math teacher works out with lavar's body guard. needless to say my math teacher is quite large, but that's another story.

he says they talk redskins all day long, and the issue we have devoted 11 pages to already has come up almost every time: who's it going to be?

lavar and most of the other players agree that the best quarterback on the roster did not see the field once this season. they also agree that next year, he will be the guy and he will be better than anyone could have thought.

that qb, for the slower folks...is JASON CAMPBELL.

skinsfano28 wrote:my math teacher works out with lavar's body guard. needless to say my math teacher is quite large, but that's another story.

he says they talk redskins all day long, and the issue we have devoted 11 pages to already has come up almost every time: who's it going to be?

lavar and most of the other players agree that the best quarterback on the roster did not see the field once this season. they also agree that next year, he will be the guy and he will be better than anyone could have thought.

that qb, for the slower folks...is JASON CAMPBELL.

Jason is the best QB in which way? I have no doubt in my mind that Jason is the most physically gifted QB on our roster. I have no doubt that he can make all the throws in the comfort of the training facility. I do doubt that he would have been ready in his rookie year to lead us this far. I doubt that he could have the patience that only comes with being a GOOD veteran QB. I doubt that he'd have the patience to chuck the ball out of bounds instead of threading the needle into triple coverage <cough> Ramsey<Cough>.

What Gibbs did was right, he's going to Palmer route with this.

Why did Ramsey fail? Ramsey was thrust into the fire with no coaching. Why is everyone so quick to do the same to Campbell?

Brunell will start, but it will be open for Jason to step on in. Gibbs is loyal, but will put the better QB in the game.

I can't wait to see what Campbell can do

Chris Luva Luva wrote:Why did Ramsey fail? Ramsey was thrust into the fire with no coaching. Why is everyone so quick to do the same to Campbell?

Actually, one big reason Ramsey failed is that Spurrier didn't believe in blocking the blitz.

Watching him get piledrived by Roy Williams...youch.

PulpExposure wrote:

Chris Luva Luva wrote:Why did Ramsey fail? Ramsey was thrust into the fire with no coaching. Why is everyone so quick to do the same to Campbell?

Actually, one big reason Ramsey failed is that Spurrier didn't believe in blocking the blitz.

Watching him get piledrived by Roy Williams...youch.

He was also "coached" by Spurrier to force it down field

Chris Luva Luva wrote:What Gibbs did was right, he's going to Palmer route with this.

Why did Ramsey fail? Ramsey was thrust into the fire with no coaching. Why is everyone so quick to do the same to Campbell?

What? The "Palmer route" would be to hand Campbell the starting job before the season starts without holding any kind of competition in the preseason. It would appear that you believe that would be a bad idea.

For what it's worth, I would be shocked if Brunell did not open the 2006 season as the starter.

Steve Spurrier III wrote:

Chris Luva Luva wrote:What Gibbs did was right, he's going to Palmer route with this.

Why did Ramsey fail? Ramsey was thrust into the fire with no coaching. Why is everyone so quick to do the same to Campbell?

What? The "Palmer route" would be to hand Campbell the starting job before the season starts without holding any kind of competition in the preseason. It would appear that you believe that would be a bad idea.

For what it's worth, I would be shocked if Brunell did not open the 2006 season as the starter.

Didn't Palmer sit for 3 years before being handed the job? Thats what I was reffering to. Campbell is going to sit until Gibbs feels he's ready and not a moment sooner.

Id rather wait and have this kid be ready then to go thru another Ramsey ordeal which so many people here are anxious to do.

If your talking about Carson Palmer he only sat his rookie season and than his second year he started playing as a starter.

Yeah! Palmer only sat 1 year, not even a snap. Cambell and Brunell will battle for the job this year, who will get the job, we'll see. I think Cambell should start playing but I don't think Gibbs has the patience to go through growing pains with a 2nd year but rookie QB.

Chris Luva Luva wrote:Didn't Palmer sit for 3 years before being handed the job? Thats what I was reffering to. Campbell is going to sit until Gibbs feels he's ready and not a moment sooner.

Id rather wait and have this kid be ready then to go thru another Ramsey ordeal which so many people here are anxious to do.

As a number of people have already pointed out, Palmer only sat his rookie season, and was an MVP candadite by year three. No offense, but he is probably the worst example you could have used for your argument.

Two things you don't seem to be considering:

1) I agree that we need to wait for Campbell to be ready (as if a young quarterback is ever really ready), but why can't he be ready in 2006? It is extremely rare for a first round quarterback to sit out more than two seasons (I remember seeing a graphic - only like five first round quarterbacks have not played in their first two seasons. I believe the most successful of the bunch was Chad "Rotator Cuff" Penningotn.) There's no reason to believe Campbell is abnormally underdeveloped.

2) Not only are Ramsey and Campbell different people and different players, but Ramsey was in a totally different situation than Campbell will be. Spurrier left Ramsey out to dry with his collegiate blocking schemes, and that just isn't going to happen to Campbell. Spurrier and Gibbs could not have a more different approach to offense. A much more comparable situation would be Ben Roethlisberger's; Campbell would be asked mostly to not make mistakes, and let the running game do the hard work.

I love Brunell, but I just don't see how this team can win a championship with him as the starter. Campbell is going to have to take his lumps at some point, so if he's matured enough, I say let's get them over with.

It's really not fair to evaluate Ramsey or Campbell since neither really got to play, although in a short stint, Ramsey did do very well.

The question is if Brunell can be the start for the entirety of next year. Being as old as he is, let's not just limit how he'll perform if he's healthy because that's a big if. So his overall performance this year should be considered the best to expect for next year. He won't be getting faster, stronger, more healthy or even gutsier than he has already been. He may become smarter, but since his biggest quality seems to be smart play, there's really not much room to go with that.

Watching the games, everyone will agree he was very conservative with slinging the ball. Every big play he made was either a flat (not even a down-the-field out) or a wide-open receiver. In the NFL, not even Gibbs is good enough to scheme offenses where you can throw a ball only when receivers are WIDE-OPEN. How hard is it to teach a guy to throw the ball only when he has no one around him?

Secondly, how much of an impact did he have? As mentioned earlier, Brunell's stats were bad in our big wins. Instead of assuming that he absence of bad play was the reason, why can't you assume somethine that makes more sense, e.g., the less we need to rely on Brunell to win games, the better off we are. If this is the BEST OPTION for our quarterback, this town will never win a Super Bowl even with Gibbs at the helm.

The number one excuse is the lack of a 2nd WR option. Last year it was the offensive line. Who will it be next year? It seems to me that in the NFL, even the worst WRs manage to get open every once and a while, but for some reason every secondary that plays the Redskins, they seem outstanding. You can't tell on TV all the time, but I did see a lot of times that Brunell didn't see any open WR, or a WR that didn't seem open enough. As someone else put it. He looked scared.

Sorry for you fans that couldn't see the obvious, but OLD and SCARED don't win championships. And knowing how RBs and WRs always think they're open, and how the NFL is about putting players in position to make plays, do you doubt that Moss and Portis haven't lost confidence in Brunell after seeing what Delhomme did with Steve Smith and Goings against the Bears? They must be thinking that they could've done much more and much better if Brunell had given them a chance instead of holding the ball or taking the sack (even on 4th down, what's with that?).

dlc wrote:It's really not fair to evaluate Ramsey or Campbell since neither really got to play, although in a short stint, Ramsey did do very well.

Uh, no. Ramsey did not do very well in any year he started. Other than this past year, serving in a back-up role, he's yet to have a QB rating higher than 75.8. He's fumbled the ball 25 times in his short 4-year career and has thrown a grand total of 34 touchdowns with 29 Ints.

In his two full-time starting years (yes, I know he didn't start every game), he compiled a horrific 12-20 franchise win record. Since then, he's continued to loose more games than win. I'm not saying he's a bust, but he really hasn't done "very well".

AZHog wrote:

dlc wrote:It's really not fair to evaluate Ramsey or Campbell since neither really got to play, although in a short stint, Ramsey did do very well.

Uh, no. Ramsey did not do very well in any year he started.

I believe Dic is referring to the 2005 campaign, in which Ramsey threw a grand total of 25 passes.

I think its still a bit early to throw in the towel with Rasmey. In 2004 and 2005 (the non-Spurrier years), Ramsey has completed 62% of his passes, a reason to think he can play NFL football. That being said, the future of this franchise is Campbell, and Ramsey probably could use a change of scenery anyway.

The bottom line is that in order for a qb to be succesful in the NFL he needs to start playing early on in his career so that he can gain experience. You don't see too many guys that sit on the bench for more than a couple of years and be succesful. For example, if you look at the 10 highest rated passers in the AFC, 9 out of 10 were full-time starts by their second season. We need to start Campbell's learning process sooner rather than later if we hope to win a Super Bowl during Gibbs' 5 year contract.

SS3, thanks for clarifying. I was talking about this year. Let me throw something else out there for you then. Here's Brunell's line from 2004:

9 games 118/237 49.8% 1194yds 5.0 yd/att 7 TD 49 lng 6 INT 63.9 rating

Here's Ramsey the same year (same players):

9 games 169/272 62.1% 1665yds 6.1 yd/att 10 TD 51 lng 11 INT 74.8 rating

2003: 2100 yds, 14TD, 9INT (2nd year)

His numbers were even better the year before in the Spurrier era. The only real argument is the W's and L's. But unless you're delusional, that beast of a defense is the biggest reason for that.

The fact that you're comparing a growing QB to an age-old veteran shows how weak Brunell's standing is. Not to mention how many of Brunell's yards and touchdowns this season can be attributed to WR screens (Moss) and ey/Sellers in the flat, not difficult throws or decisions.

Ramsey will probably get better especially with good coaching, seemingly somewhere else, but no matter what our option is, we need to realize that Brunell isn't going to cut it was my point, not trying to support Ramsey or Campbell.

Ok, I decided I think it will be Campbell. I have no real basis for this, but I know that if I go through the whole off-season thinking it will be Brunell again (who performed admirably for most of this season), I think i'll develop and ulcer.

dlc wrote:His numbers were even better the year before in the Spurrier era. The only real argument is the W's and L's. But unless you're delusional, that beast of a defense is the biggest reason for that.

The fact that you're comparing a growing QB to an age-old veteran shows how weak Brunell's standing is. Not to mention how many of Brunell's yards and touchdowns this season can be attributed to WR screens (Moss) and ey/Sellers in the flat, not difficult throws or decisions.

Ramsey will probably get better especially with good coaching, seemingly somewhere else, but no matter what our option is, we need to realize that Brunell isn't going to cut it was my point, not trying to support Ramsey or Campbell.

First off, I never compared Ramsey to Brunell. Now you're putting words in my mouth. Brunell was injured last year. Was he good...no. Neither was Ramsey. If you're referring to Ramsey this year it still doesn't wash. Ramsey started the first game but was hit and fumbled -- after already throwing an INT. He had emergency duty later on for one game. We're all lucky Moss caught that duck of a pass and made a big gain out of it.

Brunell's not a great QB either, but proved this year to be able to at least manage the game effectively in Gibbs' scheme. Obviously Campbell is the QB of the future and I can't wait to see him get some first-team time under his belt.

You're statement about our coaching is ridiculous. Are you inferring that the QB coaching in Washington is somehow subpar? That Ramsey would flourish and develop outside of a max-protect, ball-control offense? Right...blame a HOF, 3-time Superbowl winning, QB developing head coach and his stellar staff for Ramsey's poor play. That sounds right to me...

BTW -- Again I say, Ramsey has never done "very well".

AZHog wrote:You're statement about our coaching is ridiculous. Are you inferring that the QB coaching in Washington is somehow subpar? That Ramsey would flourish and develop outside of a max-protect, ball-control offense? Right...blame a HOF, 3-time Superbowl winning, QB developing head coach and his stellar staff for Ramsey's poor play. That sounds right to me...

Without blaming Gibbs for Ramsey's failures, what quarterbacks did Gibbs exactly develop? By my count, seven quarterbacks have gotten significant playing time under Joe Gibbs:

Joe Theismann
Jay Schroeder
Doug Williams
Mark Rypien
Stan Humphries
Mark Brunell
Patrick Ramsey

Of this group, Joe Theismann, Doug Williams and Mark Rypien did not land under Gibbs tuteledge until they had already established themselves as NFL quarterbacks. (Remember, Theismann had already been the starter for three full seasons before Gibbs arrived).

Jay Schroeder and Mark Rypien both had one excellent season, but were otherwise pretty ordinary players. Schroeder made the Pro Bowl in 1986 with 4109 yards (but a 22/22 TD/INT ratio), and was traded two years later. He never broke the 3000 yard barrier again. Rypien had a good 1989 and a fantastic 1991, but was pretty bad in 1992, and was never a fulltime starter again.

Stan Humphries did absolutley nothing in Washington, and went on to have a few decent years in San Diego. The Patrick Ramsey project has yet to be completed, although I think it's fair to say it doesn't appear to be going well.

So in terms of developing quarterbacks, Gibbs hasn't really done that hot. He had his hands on Schroeder, Rypien and Humphries as rookies, but none of the three had the careers we would hope of Campbell. That's not saying he can't do it with Campbell (obviously the player has a lot to do with it), but saying he is an established quarterback developing head coach is a bit misleading.

I am a Patrick Ramsey fan. I would like him to start. It probably will not happen. Hemight be traded. It stinks.

Somehow, his relationship with Joe never took off for several reasons and a couple of very bad games. The first game against the Giants last season was an unmitigated DISASTER. But I believe in the kid and I am sure he will be a great QB for somebody.

Say what you might, but I feel that Patrick would have given us a better chance to win over the the last four games.

I do not know whether Campbell is as good as many say. He might. But I know that Brunell is not the answer this season, nor the future. He is very inaccurate. He was husrt and his performance declined accordingly. He does not have a cannon for an arm. His passes float to the point that the receivers have to fight double coverage by the time they get there.

I still feel that Brunell is valuable as a backup to groom the starter. But that is it.

I suspect that Brunell will start the season and Campbell will take over after that. Unfortunately Ramsey will not be given a decent chance. Too bad. I will always be a fan of his.

Go Patrick!