What would happen if Ramsey starts?

JPFair · Post by **JPFair** » Tue Nov 09, 2004 1:55 am

To all those that are calling for Gibbs' head after eight weeks of Brunell, let me ask this:

If he does put Ramsey in there, and Ramsey has the typical 250 yard games, and thows his usual three picks, and we lose the bulk of the games he starts. Should we bench him, or would we want Gibbs to be loyal to his starter and have faith in him? Any real football fan would want the latter.

To replace Brunell right now is much more dangerous than people realize.

Scottskins · Post by **Scottskins** » Tue Nov 09, 2004 2:04 am

In that case you'd be right JP, but assuming a QB who isn't interception prone is going to throw 3 picks is pretty unrealistic. Without throwing the picks, we'd have a much better chance of winning. Our sack total would probably go up, but the interceptions wouldn't, at least not much. As I stated in another thread, Brunell could easily have 10 more interceptions, he's just been lucky.

That being said, I'm not one of the people calling for Gibbs head. I think I understand his plan, and if Brunell starts the rest of the season, I'm fine with it. Ramsey is going to be a stud, it just probably won't happen until next season, that's all.

JPFair · Post by **JPFair** » Tue Nov 09, 2004 6:53 am

I don't really think Brunell has been unlucky to not have ten more interceptions. I think part of Gibbs' whole offensive plan calls for either throwing the ball away or taking the sack if the receivers aren't there. I think that is the main reason Brunell is still in there and not Ramsey. I think Ramsey has a slight tendency to be a little greedy and try to thread the needle too much.

redskins-28 · Post by **redskins-28** » Tue Nov 09, 2004 7:21 am

Personally I wouldn't care if Ramsey didn't play stellar, I know he will play extremely well since he is a fierce competitor. Ramsey is still learning and mistakes are completely understandable, look at Favre, he throws a lot of ints but he also throws for a lot of yardage.

Brunell is a seasoned veteran and appears to just not "have it" anymore. There is no excuse for a QB at his level to play this bad especially for the money he is getting. Maybe he is just in a slump? I think it's more than that, he didn't play well his past few years with Jacksonville either, I think it his time to let the future of the team take over - Ramsey.

skinsfan#33 · Post by **skinsfan#33** » Tue Nov 09, 2004 8:36 am

JPFair wrote:To all those that are calling for Gibbs' head after eight weeks of Brunell, let me ask this:

If he does put Ramsey in there, and Ramsey has the typical 250 yard games, and thows his usual three picks, and we lose the bulk of the games he starts. Should we bench him, or would we want Gibbs to be loyal to his starter and have faith in him? Any real football fan would want the latter.

To replace Brunell right now is much more dangerous than people realize.

There is nothing like making generalized statements that are not correct. Last year Ramsey (playing with a broken foot) had a QB rating of 75.8 through 11 games, completed 53.1%, 2166 yards, and threw 14 TDs. So that would meen at a "usual" pace of 3 INTs per game he must have thrown 33 INTs. Heck at a 2 INT per game pace he would have thrown 22 or even at a 1 per game that would be 11. But he actually only threw 9 in 11 games (less than one per game). His rookie season he threw 8 in 10 games. Again, less than 1 per game!!! I think I made my POINT!

DeathByLinebacker#56 · Tue Nov 09, 2004 8:36 am

As soon as the playoffs are out of reach , he must go with Ramsey. We know what we have in Brunell, a washed up bum, we overpaid for. Ramsey is the future and needs time under center to learn for next season. :twisted:

JPFair · Post by **JPFair** » Tue Nov 09, 2004 9:18 am

There is nothing like making generalized statements that are not correct. Last year Ramsey (playing with a broken foot) had a QB rating of 75.8 through 11 games, completed 53.1%, 2166 yards, and threw 14 TDs. So that would meen at a "usual" pace of 3 INTs per game he must have thrown 33 INTs. Heck at a 2 INT per game pace he would have thrown 22 or even at a 1 per game that would be 11. But he actually only threw 9 in 11 games (less than one per game). His rookie season he threw 8 in 10 games. Again, less than 1 per game!!! I think I made my POINT!

And how many of those games did the Redskins win? I think I made MY point! And one other thing, if he was playing with a broken foot to the point where it was affecting his abilities, he should have advised the coaching staff.

redskinz4ever · Post by **redskinz4ever** » Tue Nov 09, 2004 9:20 am

if GIBBS would replaced him during the bye week i think we would have been fine.
what would we get with him a threat to throw the ball down the field,right now we don't have that and the defense knows it.

redskincity · Post by **redskincity** » Tue Nov 09, 2004 9:33 am

JPFair wrote:To all those that are calling for Gibbs' head after eight weeks of Brunell, let me ask this:

If he does put Ramsey in there, and Ramsey has the typical 250 yard games, and thows his usual three picks, and we lose the bulk of the games he starts. Should we bench him, or would we want Gibbs to be loyal to his starter and have faith in him? Any real football fan would want the latter.

To replace Brunell right now is much more dangerous than people realize.

Where are you getting this usual three picks from. One freakin game??!!!!!!!!?

Get off the bs fella ?

You see Brunnell struggling like the rest of the world and you want to bash on a guy who can and will move us down the field?!?

We won three games because of the running game. I know you see this, you are simply posturing. You dont believe what you are writing, you just want to argue.

Well here we go, baby!! Whats up???!!!?

...Oh how would it be dangerous when all our QB is doing is handing off the ball :roll:

So whats your goal?? Is it to take on the whole board to prove to everybody to you are wrong.

Stop wasting space... please :roll:

redskinz4ever · Post by **redskinz4ever** » Tue Nov 09, 2004 9:42 am

and maybe just maybe our defense would not have to keep us in the game and keep waiting for that one break that never comes. maybe we would be able to score more than 20 points in one game.

redskincity · Post by **redskincity** » Tue Nov 09, 2004 9:48 am

JPFair wrote:I think Ramsey has a slight tendency to be a little greedy and try to thread the needle too much.

Yes he does and that is what good QBs do. Peyton, Farve, McNabb, Ratty, Brees, Roethlisberger and the bloved Ramsey, Do you know what all these good QBs have in common??

I do, they all have gunslinger mentality and very strong arms. You will never catch them throwing for 58 freakin yards in back to back games :oops:

With that said, we start Ramsey, simple.

JPFair · Post by **JPFair** » Tue Nov 09, 2004 10:11 am

You see Brunnell struggling like the rest of the world and you want to bash on a guy who can and will move us down the field?!?

First, how do you know that Ramsey "can and will" move us down the field. There is only ONE person that is capable of making such a definitive statement. And, rest assured, that person is NOT you. My three picks figure certainly did come from one game, the ONLY game that Ramsey has been in. Imagine what he would do in this offense if he was put in to it too early. I would rather have a lackluster veteran like Mark Brunell right now, than a gung ho Patrick Ramsey who is CLEARLY not capable of running this offense just yet. His time will come, but for right now it's Mark Brunell. If Patrick Ramsey was named our starter and subsequently struggled, I would absolutely support the decision by Joe Gibbs to stick with Ramsey? Why? Because that's what a team needs to fight it's way out of it. The easy thing would be to bench Brunell and put Ramsey in there. But, the easy thing is not going to fix this team for the long haul.

Contrary to your assertion, I am NOT defending Brunell. I'm merely defending Joe Gibbs decision to keep him in there. If you feel so strongly and adamant about putting Ramsey in there, why don't we see you out there coaching a football team. Perhaps you should learn how to be a fan and not make such conclusive statements as "can and will" move us downfield". How do you know he can? How do you know he will? Have you seen him run a Joe Gibbs offense before? Have you seen what a Hall of Fame Coach has seen in practice? I didn't think so! Did you not see what he did in both the pre-season as well as the Giants game? If your statistical analysis and per game figures were so realistic, then WHY isn't a Hall of Fame coach using him? Dare you accuse Joe Gibbs of not knowing how to run a football team?

doroshjt · Post by **doroshjt** » Tue Nov 09, 2004 10:13 am

JP you are way off base, he does not usually throw 3 ints a game, that was one game, does portis usually fumble twice a game as well.

He has moved us down field, in his one game he moved us 142 yards in 1 half, how many sub 100 yard games does brunell have?

hkiss444 · Post by **hkiss444** » Tue Nov 09, 2004 10:18 am

I think it is pretty clear when each week the opposing defenses dare the Redskins to throw and Brunell can't take advantage.
I think it is important to note it is not just the fans that see that Brunell doesn't have it, every NFL "expert" has pointed out that Brunell, has no confidence, no arm, and no ability to lead this team. Gibbs has always been very loyal to his starters and right now that may be to a fault.

JPFair · Post by **JPFair** » Tue Nov 09, 2004 10:23 am

JP you are way off base, he does not usually throw 3 ints a game, that was one game, does portis usually fumble twice a game as well.

In the ONLY regular season game that he has QB'd a Joe Gibbs offense, he threw three INT's in one half. In addition, even in the pre-season, he looked dreadful in a Joe Gibbs offense. We have only seen him in those games, but Joe Gibbs sees him in practice as well as those games. Do we see more than Joe Gibbs does?

It's really quite simple. Joe Gibbs will put Ramsey in when he thinks he's ready. He named Brunell the starter at the beginning of the year, and as I said before, he didn't attach any conditions to it. He's made a commitment, and he's sticking with it. I applaud him for it, and time will prove that he's doing the right thing.

JPFair · Post by **JPFair** » Tue Nov 09, 2004 10:27 am

Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2004 9:48 am
Post subject:

JPFair wrote:
I think Ramsey has a slight tendency to be a little greedy and try to thread the needle too much.

Yes he does and that is what good QBs do. Peyton, Farve, McNabb, Ratty, Brees, Roethlisberger and the bloved Ramsey,

With the exception of Ben Roethlisberger, who is the exception to the rule, those QB's did not get it done right away. For all intents and purposes, and after the Spurrier debacle, Ramsey is in effect a Rookie QB just like the ones you mention. Ramsey's time will come. But, for the time being, it's time to support our coaches decisions.

redskincity · Post by **redskincity** » Tue Nov 09, 2004 10:48 am

JPFair wrote:
You see Brunnell struggling like the rest of the world and you want to bash on a guy who can and will move us down the field?!?

First, how do you know that Ramsey "can and will" move us down the field. There is only ONE person that is capable of making such a definitive statement. And, rest assured, that person is NOT you. My three picks figure certainly did come from one game, the ONLY game that Ramsey has been in. Imagine what he would do in this offense if he was put in to it too early. I would rather have a lackluster veteran like Mark Brunell right now, than a gung ho Patrick Ramsey who is CLEARLY not capable of running this offense just yet. His time will come, but for right now it's Mark Brunell. If Patrick Ramsey was named our starter and subsequently struggled, I would absolutely support the decision by Joe Gibbs to stick with Ramsey? Why? Because that's what a team needs to fight it's way out of it. The easy thing would be to bench Brunell and put Ramsey in there. But, the easy thing is not going to fix this team for the long haul.

Contrary to your assertion, I am NOT defending Brunell. I'm merely defending Joe Gibbs decision to keep him in there. If you feel so strongly and adamant about putting Ramsey in there, why don't we see you out there coaching a football team. Perhaps you should learn how to be a fan and not make such conclusive statements as "can and will" move us downfield". How do you know he can? How do you know he will? Have you seen him run a Joe Gibbs offense before? Have you seen what a Hall of Fame Coach has seen in practice? I didn't think so! Did you not see what he did in both the pre-season as well as the Giants game? If your statistical analysis and per game figures were so realistic, then WHY isn't a Hall of Fame coach using him? Dare you accuse Joe Gibbs of not knowing how to run a football team?

First off, I know Patrick 'can move us' because he has. He came right in off the bench and took us to the redzone 4 times. One pass was dropped that should have been a TD, but we settled for a field goal and the other three were picked.

That to me is 'moving the ball. Something Brunnel used to be able to do.

Its sad when teams dont plan against your QB. :oops:

I am accusing Joe because Joe is accusing Joe. Get with the program. He has said many times its his coaching that cost us the game, when we all know it's QB.

Joe is human and is feeling way around the League. Its evident. Only a fool would not see that, especially when the coach telling you so.

Q: "Has Joe failed us by playing Brunell?"

A: "Only time will tell."

What is your arguement is it wheter Brunnel is a better QB than Ramsey or the fact that fans are challenging Joes decesion to keep in Brunell??

redskincity · Post by **redskincity** » Tue Nov 09, 2004 10:53 am

JPFair wrote:
Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2004 9:48 am
Post subject:

JPFair wrote:
I think Ramsey has a slight tendency to be a little greedy and try to thread the needle too much.

Yes he does and that is what good QBs do. Peyton, Farve, McNabb, Ratty, Brees, Roethlisberger and the bloved Ramsey,

With the exception of Ben Roethlisberger, who is the exception to the rule, those QB's did not get it done right away. For all intents and purposes, and after the Spurrier debacle, Ramsey is in effect a Rookie QB just like the ones you mention. Ramsey's time will come. But, for the time being, it's time to support our coaches decisions.

They all did get get it done. They threw deep balls. Ramsey can throw a pretty and accurate deep ball, something the incapable, incumbent used to be able to do.

SkinsBigtime · Post by **SkinsBigtime** » Tue Nov 09, 2004 10:56 am

JPFair wrote:
You see Brunnell struggling like the rest of the world and you want to bash on a guy who can and will move us down the field?!?

First, how do you know that Ramsey "can and will" move us down the field. There is only ONE person that is capable of making such a definitive statement. And, rest assured, that person is NOT you. My three picks figure certainly did come from one game, the ONLY game that Ramsey has been in. Imagine what he would do in this offense if he was put in to it too early. I would rather have a lackluster veteran like Mark Brunell right now, than a gung ho Patrick Ramsey who is CLEARLY not capable of running this offense just yet. His time will come, but for right now it's Mark Brunell. If Patrick Ramsey was named our starter and subsequently struggled, I would absolutely support the decision by Joe Gibbs to stick with Ramsey? Why? Because that's what a team needs to fight it's way out of it. The easy thing would be to bench Brunell and put Ramsey in there. But, the easy thing is not going to fix this team for the long haul.

Contrary to your assertion, I am NOT defending Brunell. I'm merely defending Joe Gibbs decision to keep him in there. If you feel so strongly and adamant about putting Ramsey in there, why don't we see you out there coaching a football team. Perhaps you should learn how to be a fan and not make such conclusive statements as "can and will" move us downfield". How do you know he can? How do you know he will? Have you seen him run a Joe Gibbs offense before? Have you seen what a Hall of Fame Coach has seen in practice? I didn't think so! Did you not see what he did in both the pre-season as well as the Giants game? If your statistical analysis and per game figures were so realistic, then WHY isn't a Hall of Fame coach using him? Dare you accuse Joe Gibbs of not knowing how to run a football team?

Well said. =D>

I totally agree with you Jp. I trust Gibbs. Gibbs will put Ramsey in when it is time. Right now, Gibbs does not like what he sees in production right now. Ramsey is the future, no doubt about that, but Brunell is the present. Everyone just trust Gibbs, and RC don't sit there and call Gibbs human because he isn't.

redskincity · Post by **redskincity** » Tue Nov 09, 2004 11:03 am

...As fans we have no choice but to go with what Joes blessings are.

But I anit going to sit here like a freaking Moron and try to hide the truth because of what Joe has done in the past.

The QB is stinking up the passing game. If you guys cant see that, you are very gullible fans, because of Joe.

SkinsJock · Post by **SkinsJock** » Tue Nov 09, 2004 11:12 am

I think the point was not about who is the right/better QB but that whoever is the QB is going to get Joe's support. Right now that is Mark.

Joe's always supported his QB!

JP is only asking that if it was Pat and IF he was having as little success as Mark would we then want #3?

I think we all would like to see a QB change BUT Joe does not work that way AND he is the coach.

Oh! By the way, he's had some success with less talent!

As the wise man said "only time will tell", but I'm still thinking that he knows best.

redskins56 · Post by **redskins56** » Tue Nov 09, 2004 11:19 am

skinsfan#33 wrote:
JPFair wrote:To all those that are calling for Gibbs' head after eight weeks of Brunell, let me ask this:

If he does put Ramsey in there, and Ramsey has the typical 250 yard games, and thows his usual three picks, and we lose the bulk of the games he starts. Should we bench him, or would we want Gibbs to be loyal to his starter and have faith in him? Any real football fan would want the latter.

To replace Brunell right now is much more dangerous than people realize.

There is nothing like making generalized statements that are not correct. Last year Ramsey (playing with a broken foot) had a QB rating of 75.8 through 11 games, completed 53.1%, 2166 yards, and threw 14 TDs. So that would meen at a "usual" pace of 3 INTs per game he must have thrown 33 INTs. Heck at a 2 INT per game pace he would have thrown 22 or even at a 1 per game that would be 11. But he actually only threw 9 in 11 games (less than one per game). His rookie season he threw 8 in 10 games. Again, less than 1 per game!!! I think I made my POINT!

Thank you for saving me some time. When I first read his comments I wanted to flip out, but at least someone here doesn't make false statements to prove their points. To say that a three pick game is usual is preposterous. Thanks for saving me from signing off today, I'll stay and read some more posts.

JPFair · Post by **JPFair** » Tue Nov 09, 2004 11:21 am

Thank you SJ. FINALLY someone sees the point that I'm making.

First off, I know Patrick 'can move us' because he has. He came right in off the bench and took us to the redzone 4 times. One pass was dropped that should have been a TD, but we settled for a field goal and the other three were picked.

Three picks? In ONE half? Has Brunell did that this year? It doesn't matter if Ramsey can throw for 500 yards a game if the picks are going to destroy any momentum. If you look at those picks he threw, had they not been thrown, that game would have been won.

And, let me tell you, you do NOT know that Patrick can move us downfield. You merely THINK he can. It's not for YOU or anyone of us to decide whether he can or not. It's up to Joe Gibbs. And with all due respect to you, I'd beleive Joe Gibbs' abilities to run a football team long before I beleive yours.

[/quote]I am accusing Joe because Joe is accusing Joe. Get with the program. He has said many times its his coaching that cost us the game, when we all know it's QB.

Again, you THINK it's the QB. I'll beleive whatever Joe Gibbs tells me. As far as Joe Gibbs blaming himself, he absolutely should be blaming himself. Authority can be delegated, but responsibility can not be. Joe Gibbs is responsible for what happens to this team? Are you hinting that we should bench Joe Gibbs?

And I am not saying that Brunell is the better QB. I personally think that in time, Ramsey will be the better QB. I think Brunell earned the starters job. He did not earn a job contingent on his production halfway through the season. He is the starter. You do NOT abandon your plan just because things are going bad after only eight games. That's ludicrous. Do I wanna see Ramsey in there? ABSOLUTELY I do. I'd love to see what he can do. But, do I have patience? Yep!! I've seen what Joe Gibbs is capable of, and if he replicate even 25% of what he's done for this franchise and it's fans, I'm willing to wait as long as it takes. I have all the faith in the world in Joe Gibbs. If I ever lost that faith, I can assure you it won't come after eight games in his first season back. He took this job for a reason, and he knows what he's up against. It's going to take time.

redskinz4ever · Post by **redskinz4ever** » Tue Nov 09, 2004 11:26 am

JPFair wrote: Joe Gibbs is responsible for what happens to this team?

in some sense YES but the players have to make plays ....BRUNELL and the receivers are NOT !!!!

doroshjt · Post by **doroshjt** » Tue Nov 09, 2004 11:30 am

JPFair wrote:
And, let me tell you, you do NOT know that Patrick can move us downfield. You merely THINK he can.

But I do know brunell sucks and his stats prove it. He is not good. Gibbs keeps saying its not brunell, but it is. I don't care what he says on that, he never comes back with specifics as to what is wrong with the offense. He says its everyone, but when the rest of the team is clicking and now the rushing game is making progress, the passing still blows, and who is in charge of that? The QB.

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