The Three Year (B)itch

[Burgundy&GoldForever]

We've been doing a lot of talking about how the running game is nonexistent. What we haven't done is explain why in sensible terms. Yes, the offensive line is a complete rebuild based upon draft picks and injuries. But there's more to the story and no one is discussing it here. It's all Mike Shanahan's fault. No, that's not sarcasm or hyperbole. It really is all his fault and here's why. Shanahan has a long and sometimes infamous track record of drafting running backs whose window of success is short-lived. Terrell Davis had four good seasons followed by three forgettable ones. Olandis Gary had one good season. Mike Anderson had two good seasons, five years apart. Clinton Portis may have been the best of the lot with six good seasons out of nine years played but half of those were after he was traded from Denver to Washington. Reuben Droughns had two good seasons, one of them in Cleveland. Tatum Bell had two good seasons if we're being generous.

Alfred Morris is now into his fourth season. As a 6th round draft pick who has had three good seasons, albeit each of them less good than the previous year, and a couple of Pro Bowl appearances, he's officially reached the "Shanahan Wall."

If someone has a good argument as to why we should expect anything more from Morris than from any other Shanahan running back I'd love to hear it.

Frankly, I think he's done. That's the problem with the running game. Tell me I'm wrong.

[SkinsJock]

Morris may be done as you suggest but I'll bet the Patriots would love for us to cut him this week and he'd be going to Super Bowl 50

[Burgundy&GoldForever]

Morris may be done as you suggest but I'll bet the Patriots would love for us to cut him this week and he'd be going to Super Bowl 50

The Patriots can take a homeless guy off the sewer grate and make him a player to be reckoned with. I don't know that they'd care much for a declining running back when "Next Man Up" really does work in their organization.

More to the point of this thread though is who cares if he ends up elsewhere? We need to use Matt Jones as the primary running back and see if we're going to need one of those, too.

I have a feeling we're going to a lot of familiar faces gone from this roster. Morris will be one of those. He looks done. And when a Shanahan back looks done he is done.

[riggofan]

hah. Didn't Terrell Davis tear his ACL? If I remember correctly that had more to do with his sudden decline than anything else.

With most of the backs you listed, the issue wasn't that they had a short window of success. The issue was that these running backs would look really good in Shanahan's system but then they would leave for Cleveland or Detroit or wherever and look completely average.

I guess that part is a possibility with Morris. He thrived in Shanahan's ZBS like a lot of other RBs, but has struggled as the team has moved to something different. Its an interesting idea at least.

[SkinsJock]

The Pats just lost Dion Lewis ...

we're not done with Morris yet - there's still some gas in that tank

[oj]

I think Alf has put on a little weight and it dosn't suit his running style. I bet he's trying to pare down as we speak, he's frustrated as we are and I'm thinking he'll do something about it.
The running game will improve if they don't get hit at the line of scrimmage, they got to have a step and they aren't getting it.

[markshark84]

If someone has a good argument as to why we should expect anything more from Morris than from any other Shanahan running back I'd love to hear it.

Frankly, I think he's done. That's the problem with the running game. Tell me I'm wrong.

What would be a "good" arguement to someone who doesn't want to hear it??

Morris produced a 1,000 yard season outside of the Shannahan years. His production has gone down the past 3 seasons because (1) his first season was one of the best in redskins history --- was it the best? it may have been honestly, (2) our QB play has gotten worse in each of those years (not including this season), and (3) our OL has also gotten worse. RBs can only do so much. Outside of Barry Sanders I can't think of one RB that wouldn't need at least a medicore OL and some sort of passing attack or running QB to offset DEF schemes against them. Morris had some of those things in each of the prior 3 years; but not this year.

This year thus far we've had no deep threat, one of the worst OLs in the NFL, and a non-rushing QB. That results in a consistent 8 man front --- which is what we've seen (and sometimes 9).

[Burgundy&GoldForever]

If someone has a good argument as to why we should expect anything more from Morris than from any other Shanahan running back I'd love to hear it.

Frankly, I think he's done. That's the problem with the running game. Tell me I'm wrong.

What would be a "good" arguement to someone who doesn't want to hear it??

Morris produced a 1,000 yard season outside of the Shannahan years. His production has gone down the past 3 seasons because (1) his first season was one of the best in redskins history --- was it the best? it may have been honestly, (2) our QB play has gotten worse in each of those years (not including this season), and (3) our OL has also gotten worse. RBs can only do so much. Outside of Barry Sanders I can't think of one RB that wouldn't need at least a medicore OL and some sort of passing attack or running QB to offset DEF schemes against them. Morris had some of those things in each of the prior 3 years; but not this year.

This year thus far we've had no deep threat, one of the worst OLs in the NFL, and a non-rushing QB. That results in a consistent 8 man front --- which is what we've seen (and sometimes 9).

Morris is on pace for 190 carries and 624 yards. And Zero Touchdowns. His yards per carry is 3.3. Matt Jones is averaging an also terrible 3.7. He has a total of 9 first downs. Matt Jones has 16. His longest run of the season is 35 yards. Jones has one of 39 yards. Morris is averaging 39 yards per game. Jones is averaging 39.4 yards per game on two fewer carries per game. Why is Jones outperforming Morris in every meaningful statistical category behind the same line with the same quarterback? I'm not saying Matt Jones is the answer. I'm saying Alfred Morris should be better than Matt Jones. Right?

[mastdark81]

Yeah Terrell Davis was stopped by injuries not because of lack of Shanahan or talent. Those other guys were truly benefit of not only Shanahan but a good offensive line, and Alex Gibbs way of cut blocking that was actually outlawed by the time Mike Shanahan had a chance to coach for the Redskins. So what Alfred Morris did wasn't necessarily Shanahan's full arsenal of tricks he had in Denver w/o Alex Gibbs blocking that dominated the NFL.

Not only was Gibbs a jewel on Mike's team but another guy that get overlooked is Bobby Turner. Position coaches can also mess with a running back's head and style of running. Bobby Turner as a RB was excellent!

One thing for sure Alfred Morris was special without a scheme. He was never fast but consistently got extra yards and broke tackles. Seem to have lost that this year unless he's playing hurt. Could be mental as well. Remember how Brad Johnson play declined when we signed Jeff George? Alf may have seen the writing on the wall for his Redskins career when they drafted Jones and immediately gave him a portion of 1 team snaps day one in OTA's.

[markshark84]

What would be a "good" arguement to someone who doesn't want to hear it??

Morris produced a 1,000 yard season outside of the Shannahan years. His production has gone down the past 3 seasons because (1) his first season was one of the best in redskins history --- was it the best? it may have been honestly, (2) our QB play has gotten worse in each of those years (not including this season), and (3) our OL has also gotten worse. RBs can only do so much. Outside of Barry Sanders I can't think of one RB that wouldn't need at least a medicore OL and some sort of passing attack or running QB to offset DEF schemes against them. Morris had some of those things in each of the prior 3 years; but not this year.

This year thus far we've had no deep threat, one of the worst OLs in the NFL, and a non-rushing QB. That results in a consistent 8 man front --- which is what we've seen (and sometimes 9).

Morris is on pace for 190 carries and 624 yards. And Zero Touchdowns. His yards per carry is 3.3. Matt Jones is averaging an also terrible 3.7. He has a total of 9 first downs. Matt Jones has 16. His longest run of the season is 35 yards. Jones has one of 39 yards. Morris is averaging 39 yards per game. Jones is averaging 39.4 yards per game on two fewer carries per game. Why is Jones outperforming Morris in every meaningful statistical category behind the same line with the same quarterback? I'm not saying Matt Jones is the answer. I'm saying Alfred Morris should be better than Matt Jones. Right?

Well, I guess the way I'm seeing it is that I consider Jones to be a very good running RB..... if you can look past his HUGE fumbling problem; what does he fumble, once every 24 carries. That is a big deal. That being said, he is a very good pure runner. I think anyone with eyes can see that. As far as the stats, the only RB stat that carries weight is ypc --- and that is situational, like TDs. And TDs only matter in order to gauge how good an RB is if you're playing fantasy football (which in you play fantasy (I don't) you would look at the entire OFF and OL's ability before drafting a particular RB).

This post got off track, but what I'm saying is that Jones is a very good runner. Morris is a very good runner. The fact Jones is not playing well and has simiar stats greatly REAFFIRMS the fact our OL, lack of deep passing threat, and OFF structure/playcalling are hurting our RBs ability to execute their runs. In this case, you have to look at the whole picture, the situations (score, down, yards to go, quarter, yardline, DEF front, etc. etc. etc.) on top of the support personel on the field in order to truly determine whether Morris is "done" as you say. IMHO, Morris runs on downs that are OBVIOUSLY run plays. He has a horrible OL. Our OFF has no deep threat (or at least doesn't until Desean proves he is). Those thing contribute to constant 8-9 man fronts. As I said before no none but Barry Sanders will average 4+ ypc when seeing those as constantly as Morris and Jones are.

Now will I conceded that he looks "slow" this year --- no question. But outside of Garcon, he is the only OFF player we have the has PROVEN he can produce. He needs to get more "downhill" style running calls; not this up the gut stuff they constantly call on first downs. It's gross. But saying Morris is "done" or in "decline" --- he's 26 right. I would think he's got a couple more years.

[Burgundy&GoldForever]

Well, I guess the way I'm seeing it is that I consider Jones to be a very good running RB..... if you can look past his HUGE fumbling problem; what does he fumble, once every 24 carries. That is a big deal. That being said, he is a very good pure runner. I think anyone with eyes can see that. As far as the stats, the only RB stat that carries weight is ypc --- and that is situational, like TDs. And TDs only matter in order to gauge how good an RB is if you're playing fantasy football (which in you play fantasy (I don't) you would look at the entire OFF and OL's ability before drafting a particular RB).

This post got off track, but what I'm saying is that Jones is a very good runner. Morris is a very good runner. The fact Jones is not playing well and has simiar stats greatly REAFFIRMS the fact our OL, lack of deep passing threat, and OFF structure/playcalling are hurting our RBs ability to execute their runs. In this case, you have to look at the whole picture, the situations (score, down, yards to go, quarter, yardline, DEF front, etc. etc. etc.) on top of the support personel on the field in order to truly determine whether Morris is "done" as you say. IMHO, Morris runs on downs that are OBVIOUSLY run plays. He has a horrible OL. Our OFF has no deep threat (or at least doesn't until Desean proves he is). Those thing contribute to constant 8-9 man fronts. As I said before no none but Barry Sanders will average 4+ ypc when seeing those as constantly as Morris and Jones are.

Now will I conceded that he looks "slow" this year --- no question. But outside of Garcon, he is the only OFF player we have the has PROVEN he can produce. He needs to get more "downhill" style running calls; not this up the gut stuff they constantly call on first downs. It's gross. But saying Morris is "done" or in "decline" --- he's 26 right. I would think he's got a couple more years.

For argument's sake, let's say you're right about Alfred Morris. He's in a contract year. Are they going to pay him? If the answer is "Yes" then how much are they willing to pay him? He only made $1.542 million this season. He hasn't done anything to justify a pay raise. He's only 26, as you said, so it's not like he's on the tail end of his career from an age perspective. He might be insulted by a short-term lowball offer but that's all he should receive. Scot McCloughan doesn't strike me as the type to care about much about overpaying marginal or declining talent. Morris is going to have to start proving me wrong pretty quickly.

[SkinsJock]

I don't agree with B&GF a lot but I do agree that the Redskins' run game issues are a huge factor and they need to find a way to make this better in order for the offense to have any chance of being effective ... the only 2 guys to play every down on the O line are both first year players - there's many reasons for the lack of production - something needs to be done and soon ...

this weekend we get the Saints ...

The Redskins on Sunday will face one of the league’s most porous defenses, as the Saints give up nearly 415 yards per game – second worst in the league.

Against the run, they give up 122.6 yards per game and have allowed seven rushing touchdowns.

“This is a big game for us. It's a home game,” Gruden said. “We always stress our home games, but we have to come out faster. We're playing another future Hall of Fame quarterback in Drew Brees, an excellent coach – Sean Payton. It's going to be a great challenge for these guys and we have to come out faster. We can't keep digging ourselves into 17-0 holes and expect to have a successful season or games. So, we’ve got to make sure we do a better job of coming out of the tunnel and strapping up, being ready to play quicker, play faster and start faster so we can implement our game plan and we can play with a lead and play to our strengths."

[markshark84]

For argument's sake, let's say you're right about Alfred Morris. He's in a contract year. Are they going to pay him? If the answer is "Yes" then how much are they willing to pay him? He only made $1.542 million this season. He hasn't done anything to justify a pay raise. He's only 26, as you said, so it's not like he's on the tail end of his career from an age perspective. He might be insulted by a short-term lowball offer but that's all he should receive. Scot McCloughan doesn't strike me as the type to care about much about overpaying marginal or declining talent. Morris is going to have to start proving me wrong pretty quickly.

Honestly, what the FO is willing to pay him will be what the market dictates. And that is contingent on the fact they actually want him back based on his play and what his contract would do to their cap situation.

If I were the GM, I would offer him a contract but wouldn't overpay. I am not sure what the contract would be because I am not sure what the market is asking right now. I'd like to make it a 3 year deal though. And if I were the one offering the deal, I would provide my rationale for the deal, including comparables so that he isn't insulted --- and Morris doesn't appear to have a huge ego.

Finally ---- Morris doesn't have to prove anything to you.... or me. We aren't the ones offering him contracts......

[riggofan]

Honestly, what the FO is willing to pay him will be what the market dictates.

Not sure the market is going to be wide open for him based on his play this year. I'm really torn on that situation. Morris has been such a rock solid dude here. Gotta produce though and can't overpay for that position.

From what I've read recently though, I think that we're in pretty good cap situation in 2016 and will be even better after shedding a couple contracts. I really want to see the team use that money on keeping our own guys. Assuming the team still likes his play, maybe they pay a little more to keep him here.

Free agents just don't seem to be paying off. I know this is getting off topic, but which free agents in the past two years have really paid off for us? It hasn't been the expensive guys like Hatcher. Culliver and Goldson have just been okay.

[SkinsJock]

I'm with riggofan - I think that Morris is like a few other players here - their play/contribution for the next 8 games will determine their market value and I think that Scot & the FO needs to try and keep our own players and only go after young free agents - this franchise has to build through the draft and try and do a better job with the players they have - we still have a lot of 'fixing/repairing' to do here

[Hooligan]

Morris is really starting to look like a Shanahan system RB more than ever. He's made a (short) career of running outside, waiting for a hole, and punching through. Jones really seems to run better in our offense.

Is there another team that's running a zone blocking scheme that might be willing to trade for him?

[SkinsJock]

We've been doing a lot of talking about how the running game is nonexistent. What we haven't done is explain why in sensible terms. Yes, the offensive line is a complete rebuild based upon draft picks and injuries. But there's more to the story and no one is discussing it here. It's all Mike Shanahan's fault. No, that's not sarcasm or hyperbole. It really is all his fault and here's why. Shanahan has a long and sometimes infamous track record of drafting running backs whose window of success is short-lived. Terrell Davis had four good seasons followed by three forgettable ones. Olandis Gary had one good season. Mike Anderson had two good seasons, five years apart. Clinton Portis may have been the best of the lot with six good seasons out of nine years played but half of those were after he was traded from Denver to Washington. Reuben Droughns had two good seasons, one of them in Cleveland. Tatum Bell had two good seasons if we're being generous.

Alfred Morris is now into his fourth season. As a 6th round draft pick who has had three good seasons, albeit each of them less good than the previous year, and a couple of Pro Bowl appearances, he's officially reached the "Shanahan Wall."

If someone has a good argument as to why we should expect anything more from Morris than from any other Shanahan running back I'd love to hear it.

Frankly, I think he's done. That's the problem with the running game. Tell me I'm wrong.

Frankly, you are wrong and I don't think you much of a clue about this part of the game

[Burgundy&GoldForever]

Frankly, you are wrong and I don't think you much of a clue about this part of the game

Based upon today's game against the 31st ranked defense? Yea, let's see what happens next weekend.

[SkinsJock]

Frankly, you are wrong and I don't think you much of a clue about this part of the game

Based upon today's game against the 31st ranked defense? Yea, let's see what happens next weekend.

give me a break - your point was that Morris is done - just admit that's an overstatement or that your assessment was WRONG

[Burgundy&GoldForever]

Frankly, you are wrong and I don't think you much of a clue about this part of the game

Based upon today's game against the 31st ranked defense? Yea, let's see what happens next weekend.

give me a break - your point was that Morris is done - just admit that's an overstatement or that your assessment was WRONG

Yea, two games over 60 yards rushing in nine weeks with seven games under 60 yards rushing in between means we should pay him whatever he wants.

I'm done replying to your posts here. You're just looking for an argument.

[SkinsJock]

let's try this again - regarding Alfred Morris and the run game ...

..Frankly, I think he's done. That's the problem with the running game. Tell me I'm wrong.

I think you're wrong - I don't agree that "he's done" - then again, most here know that you're a know it all - I'm just an Aussie Redskins fan

I'm not looking for an argument, heaven forbid, after all, you're an authority I'm just answering your post

[Burgundy&GoldForever]

let's try this again - regarding Alfred Morris and the run game ...

..Frankly, I think he's done. That's the problem with the running game. Tell me I'm wrong.

I think you're wrong - I don't agree that "he's done" - then again, most here know that you're a know it all - I'm just an Aussie Redskins fan

I'm not looking for an argument, heaven forbid, after all, you're an authority I'm just answering your post

I asked for good reasons. Barely cracking 100 yards against the worst rushing defense in the league is not what I consider a good reason. That's why I said let's see what he does next week. If Morris rushes for 100 yards versus Carolina I might end up agreeing he's not done but today's game doesn't change anything. Stephen Hawking could have run through New Orleans' defense today.

I'd appreciate if we could confine any discussion to football posts and refrain from ad hominem.

[Deadskins]

I'd appreciate if we could confine any discussion to football posts and refrain from ad hominem.

You and everyone else.