Quarterback, would you rather...

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Post by skinsfan#33 »

CanesSkins26 wrote:
skinsfan#33 wrote:
The Hogster wrote:I'm a fan of the best player available approach. Or trading back and getting 2 for 1.

BUT, at some point we need to face reality that we need a talented Young QB.
+1

I would prefer to trade back. If the BPA is a WR when we pick and we can't trade back then we need to take the next BPA. I couldn't stomach us drafting a WR in the first half of the first round. The risk / reward ration on WRs would put them all on my do not draft list for the first round.

When we pick as high as we will (anywhere between 7-15) you have to try to get a difference maker. You ballance the risk against the reward and that makes it REAL HARD to justify a WR.

If you get a HoF WR you get a guy that will help the team some. If you get a HoF C, LT, RT, or QB you damatically help the team more than you do if you get a WR. The same could be said for NT in a 3-4, and to a lesser degree ILB.
You think that the Bengals regretting drafting AJ Green in the top 10? I would guess "no".
No they probably aren't, but I how much of that is AJ and how much is Dalton?

I sure as hell regret Michael Westbrook and I'm sure Matt Millen (and the Lions) regret the 3 top ten WR they drafted prior to CJ and of course that team has dramatically once CJ was added. No wait they lost 16 straight! Never mind.
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Post by riggofan »

GoSkins wrote:I'm afraid we can't wait until next year (2013) to draft a top QB. My reasoning is as follows:

1. We would need to have another losing record in 2012 to give us a pick in the top 5-7 spots. Anybody want to have that happen?
2. Shanny knows he must have a winning record in 2012 and to do that he must shore up our QB and offense in the 2012 draft and FA.
I don't think anybody disagrees with you about this. The issue though is whether we have access to an actual top QB at our draft spot or not. Or do we reach just because we really need a QB.

Its also possible that we draft a QB with that first pick and still have a losing record in 2012. Right, Cam Newton?

I wonder if the team might consider Matt Flynn if they don't like the draft options available to them? He's been Rodgers' backup at GB for a couple years, only 26 years old and will be a free agent in 2012. We know Snyder can win a FA signing battle when he wants. Use the first pick on offensive line or the best player available to us.

I'm all for Luck but not sure this team can really afford to trade away a bunch of future first round picks no matter how good he is.
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Post by Red_One43 »

riggofan wrote:Great question. And I think your example of Gabbert/Kerrigan is kind of your answer, isn't it? Which of those players would YOU rather have at this point?
Wait there is more - we got the Jag's second round pick as well and that pick was traded down (Jenkins was picked with our pick) and snowballed into several more picks to include Hankerson.

So if you like Kerrigan over Gabbert, the other picks slam dunk the deal.
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Post by RayNAustin »

riggofan wrote:
GoSkins wrote:I'm afraid we can't wait until next year (2013) to draft a top QB. My reasoning is as follows:

1. We would need to have another losing record in 2012 to give us a pick in the top 5-7 spots. Anybody want to have that happen?
2. Shanny knows he must have a winning record in 2012 and to do that he must shore up our QB and offense in the 2012 draft and FA.
I don't think anybody disagrees with you about this. The issue though is whether we have access to an actual top QB at our draft spot or not. Or do we reach just because we really need a QB.

Its also possible that we draft a QB with that first pick and still have a losing record in 2012. Right, Cam Newton?

I wonder if the team might consider Matt Flynn if they don't like the draft options available to them? He's been Rodgers' backup at GB for a couple years, only 26 years old and will be a free agent in 2012. We know Snyder can win a FA signing battle when he wants. Use the first pick on offensive line or the best player available to us.

I'm all for Luck but not sure this team can really afford to trade away a bunch of future first round picks no matter how good he is.
We don't need a Backup QB. We already have those that we are forced to use as starters. We need our own Aaron Rogers, not his backup. And we don't need a QB that another team is willing to give us, because if they are willing to do that, the QB isn't much use.

We absolutely must have a QB in the top tier if we are to compete with the top level, and the most likely candidate for being that QB is Andrew Luck. And everyone knows this. That's why he's going to cost an arm and a leg.

The detailed analysis of Luck compares favorably with Peyton Manning in all of the various measurements. Remember, we are not talking about Matt Leinart, or Alex Smith, or Vince Young or even Matt Ryan, or Flacco or Roethlisberger ..... we're talking Manning, Brady, Rogers type of a potential here.

There is no such thing as can't afford him ... the issue is we can't afford to not do everything we can to get him.
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Post by DarthMonk »

Last year's draft proved there is no shortage of dance partners if one wants to trade down.

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PAPDOG67 wrote:I'm with most here that if whoever is holding that # 1 pick is asking a king's ransom for it I would not fork it over. I actually wouldn't mind if we traded back to get a few additional picks. The problem with that is you need a dance partner. It will be interesting to see where we go in this draft.
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Post by Red_One43 »

Skinsfan55 wrote:
PAPDOG67 wrote:
StorminMormon86 wrote:Best available draft pick for sure. I know fans are going to be pissed come draft time if we don't take a QB in the first round. We're not getting Luck, or RGIII, so who else is left to take in the first round? I'd rather acquire a FA (Matt Flynn) to run this offense if we don't get the QB Shanny wants in the draft.
You cannot predict how the draft will turn out. There is a good chance RGIII may be available when our pick is up. Also, with Indy winning last night Luck is very much back in the fold. If St.Louis or Minny end up with the # 1 pick, they very well could look to trade it, and we just might be the team to jump at the chance.
If I was the Skins I'd trade two 1's and two 2's for Luck
With Luck labeled as a can't miss guy and Shanny knowing the importance of having "The" quarterback, I expect the Skins to be a major player for Luck no matter who has the pick.

I know Shanny won't give up the whole draft like Ditka, but I bet that he would meet Skinsfan55's price, but I expect the deal to be a little more complex than that with other bidders involved. Something like the Hershel Walker deal (but successful for us - link below) in which late round draft choices and/or players would accompany the Luck pick to the Skins for several early round picks and a couple of players- Remember the Rams and the Skins have done interesting trade business before i.e. Carriker (swapped draft positions in a couple of rounds) and the swapping of late round drafted players to cut them. It appears that it would be to the Skins advantage to have the Rams hold the pick for more reasons than one.


Rich Tandler's analysis on the cost to move up using the now outdated draft points formula:
Adding it up, if the Redskins want to move up from the 10th pick (Tandler picked the 10th spot based on a possible 6-10 record) to the second it could cost their 2012 first-, second-, and third-round picks and their 2013 first. That is an expensive move.
http://www.realredskins.com/rich-tandle ... ng-up.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herschel_Walker_trade
Last edited by Red_One43 on Fri Dec 23, 2011 6:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by frankcal20 »

As of right now, the only QB that we know for a fact that is coming out is Luck. There is a chance that it's Luck then Tannerhill & Kellen Moore. Barkeley is staying, RG3 wants a law degree from Baylor & Jones is said by his coach that his "Gut Feeling" is that he is also staying. So we may very well be looking at possibly moving that 1st pick and drafting a guy in the 2nd round and then getting a vet. We may not have a choice. It doesn't make sense to pay 4 #1 picks for Luck. I'd be more likely to give up 2 #1's for a proven Vet vs an unproven rookie.
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Post by Countertrey »

Much as last year... I have a feeling that we are all going to be surprised at the time our pick is due...
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Post by RayNAustin »

frankcal20 wrote:As of right now, the only QB that we know for a fact that is coming out is Luck. There is a chance that it's Luck then Tannerhill & Kellen Moore. Barkeley is staying, RG3 wants a law degree from Baylor & Jones is said by his coach that his "Gut Feeling" is that he is also staying. So we may very well be looking at possibly moving that 1st pick and drafting a guy in the 2nd round and then getting a vet. We may not have a choice. It doesn't make sense to pay 4 #1 picks for Luck. I'd be more likely to give up 2 #1's for a proven Vet vs an unproven rookie.
Frank ... who would that be? Nobody is going to give up a proven franchise level QB for 2 #1s. At least not one under 34 years old. How many times have we gone down this road with other teams "former" QBs? Retreads we don't need ... that's a band aide.

Pay the price ... even if it involves the #1 for 2012, 2013, and 2014. Hopefully, by 2014 that #1 pick will be 32nd overall. :wink:

Lot's are comparing Luck to Elway .....Frank ... Elway accounted for 5 trips to the Super Bowl for Denver .... and there were several years that Elway didn't really have much around him ... and was the whole team in Denver. And since Elway, they haven't even sniffed the Super Bowl .... and neither has Shanahan.

Now, maybe somebody might have heartburn with this .... but I think Trent Williams was a wasted #1. He's soft ... gets beat like a drum and has already had trouble staying healthy. Landry hasn't been what I would call a game changer either .... sure, he's a fine footballer, but has he really won a game for us?

Again, would you not trade Jason Campbell, Carlos Rogers, Trent Williams for Aaron Rodgers? If you wouldn't, you need to put down the crack pipe. :wink: because that's what we are talking about.

Hell, I'd even throw in Maclom Kelly and Devon Thomas ....making it 3-#1s and 2-#2's ... and it would still be screaming deal for the Skins.
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Post by SkinsJock »

GoSkins wrote:In my view we will get a top flight QB in the draft. I just don't know who and how much it will cost us.
I hope you're right about these guys coming up with "a top flight QB"

You are SO WRONG if you think these guys should give up ANYTHING to get that QB

WE ARE NOT GIVING UP GOOD PLAYERS OR ANY DRAFT PICKS

Next season there will be a QB here that can play better than Grossman

we also have to draft or find a young QB that we can get ready for the future

this franchise already has the makings of a competitive team

Bruce & Mike KNOW that they have to do well this coming season and the QB play is critical


we all know what we are looking at and these guys are a lot brighter than we are

WE ARE NOT GIVING UP ANYTHING - GET REAL - this is NOT the Redskins' fantasy football team anymore :lol:
Until recently, Snyder & Allen have made a lot of really bad decisions - nobody with any sense believes this franchise will get better under their guidance
Snyder's W/L record = 45% (80-96) - Snyder/Allen = 41% (59-84-1)
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Post by SkinsJock »

Please STOP with thinking that this FO will make the same mistakes that other FO's have made

This FO will continue to make this franchise better

ALL you need to look at is what they HAVE DONE since they got here & took over the COMPLETE mess that was the Redskins

Matt Millen and his FO are not here - forget about it IT IS NOT RELEVANT AT ALL

this is the here and now and these guys will not be here this time next year if they don't find a solution at QB

THEY KNOW THAT - we are going to be fine
Until recently, Snyder & Allen have made a lot of really bad decisions - nobody with any sense believes this franchise will get better under their guidance
Snyder's W/L record = 45% (80-96) - Snyder/Allen = 41% (59-84-1)
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Post by cowboykillerzRGiii »

Its gonna be an interesting draft for sure.. The more top notch qbs that come out obviously the better for us. If say RGiii comes out we can probably get the number two pick over all cheaper then the number one then w the 2nd overall pick take rg or luck who ever is still available.

As much as I hate to say we kind of need to do anything we have to to acquire our next franchise qb. Its not just the whole third year of the shanny regime but whens the last time we had a great franchise qb? Ever? Crap not in my life time.. We must get a qb of the future and now! No more becksy grossy mcnugget patch work its time to get a great qb we can continue to build around and become the team we should be. Automatically we get better w a good qb, not to mention playoffs and more. Hell if we had a better qb this year we beat the pukes twice pats game probably eagles etc etc. We are close and need this big piece. Then ol wr CB ilb can be added w what ever picks we have left and FA. We don't really have a choice but if we got to sell the farm to get luck or rgiii then we do and we will grow and be the team to beat for the next decade. I'm ready
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Post by SkinsJock »

It seems that some here want to go back to the good old days - give up on the future for some instant gratification

WAKE UP PEOPLE :roll:




THANKFULLY ... that stuff ain't happening with this FO :D
Until recently, Snyder & Allen have made a lot of really bad decisions - nobody with any sense believes this franchise will get better under their guidance
Snyder's W/L record = 45% (80-96) - Snyder/Allen = 41% (59-84-1)
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Post by SkinsJock »

I have heard that both Landry Jones and Robert Griffin III may not come out either


I have no problem with that and actually would encourage both to stay in school :wink:
Until recently, Snyder & Allen have made a lot of really bad decisions - nobody with any sense believes this franchise will get better under their guidance
Snyder's W/L record = 45% (80-96) - Snyder/Allen = 41% (59-84-1)
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Post by cowboykillerzRGiii »

Back to what exactly skinsjock? When have we ever drafted the BEST qb in the top three picks of a draft? What have done in the past is NOT go get the guy we desperately need. I hope you are right and this FO is different... Instead of paying some old FA way yo much to come here and kill their career let's get a young stud and move foward w to better years
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Post by Redskin in Canada »

Matt Flynn just MIGHT be our starter next year.

You heard it here, folks.

ALBEIT, all of my Hognostications are going to hell this year. :roll:
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Re: Quarterback, would you rather...

Post by spenser »

CanesSkins26 wrote:
Skinsfan55 wrote:Last year, the Redskins desperately needed a quarterback. When their pick came up, Blaine Gabbert was available, instead, they traded down and got Ryan Kerrigan...

Say that scenario comes up next April. There's a QB there for the taking but someone else is on the board that could help. Would you rather we reach on a QB or draft the best available?
That's an interesting question. Shanahan is in a little bit of a tight spot in this draft. If he doesn't get the so-called qb of the future, and finishes his third season as HC with a sub .500 record with no long-term qb on the roster he very well could find himself out of a job. Shanahan and Allen have done some good things here, but if they go into year 3 with qb's like Rex, Beck, Leinart, etc., on the roster with no long-term solution then that is an epic fail on their part.

I'm all for going with the BPA available model, but at some point you have to pull the trigger on a qb. You can't keep saying "wait until next year" because predicting a draft 12 months away is too difficult.
I totally agree with this. It's great to get BPA and continue to build, and i don't want to reach for a guy that may not be elite at qb. At some point we need a freaking qb period. The last time we had a good qb was 1970. 42 freaking years ago. I dont know about you, but i can only take 3 decades of signal caller ineptness, and we're past the 4th. DECADE.

Atlanta sucked and took Matt Ryan at #3, look where they are / headed.
Detroit sucked and took Stafford #1 and look where they are / headed.

Clearly there are TONS of busts, and it could easily (and probably will) happen to us. But the bottom line is every single consistently good team in the nfl has a stud qb, and its about damn time we get one. Just Sayin....
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Post by The Hogster »

The Packers run a different system than us, and just because Flynn might look good in limited action, running a different scheme he knows like the back of his hand, doesn't mean he will be good Year 1 in Kyle's offense.

We have to look at this the way the coaches are. From all indications, this offense takes a couple of years to master. So, would Matt Flynn--learning on the fly--be able to beat Grossman?? Probably not.

The only way we see a new person at QB is if we draft one, or make a trade. After McNabb, my money is on the draft.
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Post by SprintRightOption »

What I am reading on this board is that it's Luck, RGIII, [ insert name here] or nothing. How many colleges are there in the United States that play football at a high level i.e. Division 1 . If Tom Brady can be a 6th round draft choice, that proves there are great QB's out there that are not in the public eye.

"Brady played college football for, and graduated from, the University of Michigan.[17] He was a backup his first two years, while teammate and future NFL quarterback Brian Griese led the Wolverines to a share of the national championship in 1997 in the Rose Bowl. When he enrolled at Michigan, Brady was seventh on the depth chart and had an intense struggle to get some playing time."

Brady was a back-up to Brian Griese. So who out there is the next Tom Brady they can draft?
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Re: Quarterback, would you rather...

Post by The Hogster »

spenser wrote:
CanesSkins26 wrote:
Skinsfan55 wrote:Last year, the Redskins desperately needed a quarterback. When their pick came up, Blaine Gabbert was available, instead, they traded down and got Ryan Kerrigan...

Say that scenario comes up next April. There's a QB there for the taking but someone else is on the board that could help. Would you rather we reach on a QB or draft the best available?
That's an interesting question. Shanahan is in a little bit of a tight spot in this draft. If he doesn't get the so-called qb of the future, and finishes his third season as HC with a sub .500 record with no long-term qb on the roster he very well could find himself out of a job. Shanahan and Allen have done some good things here, but if they go into year 3 with qb's like Rex, Beck, Leinart, etc., on the roster with no long-term solution then that is an epic fail on their part.

I'm all for going with the BPA available model, but at some point you have to pull the trigger on a qb. You can't keep saying "wait until next year" because predicting a draft 12 months away is too difficult.
I totally agree with this. It's great to get BPA and continue to build, and i don't want to reach for a guy that may not be elite at qb. At some point we need a freaking qb period. The last time we had a good qb was 1970. 42 freaking years ago. I dont know about you, but i can only take 3 decades of signal caller ineptness, and we're past the 4th. DECADE.

Atlanta sucked and took Matt Ryan at #3, look where they are / headed.
Detroit sucked and took Stafford #1 and look where they are / headed.

Clearly there are TONS of busts, and it could easily (and probably will) happen to us. But the bottom line is every single consistently good team in the nfl has a stud qb, and its about damn time we get one. Just Sayin....

+1
=D>

I agree. It's time for us to draft a QB. I like Landry Jones, and he should be there when we pick. Assuming Robert Griffin comes out. If not, I also like Brandon Weeden from OSU. He's older--28--but he's a very good prospect. I suspect that if he were 22, he'd be rate higher, but with our team, maturity can only help to lead the offense.
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Post by CanesSkins26 »

RayNAustin wrote:
riggofan wrote:
GoSkins wrote:I'm afraid we can't wait until next year (2013) to draft a top QB. My reasoning is as follows:

1. We would need to have another losing record in 2012 to give us a pick in the top 5-7 spots. Anybody want to have that happen?
2. Shanny knows he must have a winning record in 2012 and to do that he must shore up our QB and offense in the 2012 draft and FA.
I don't think anybody disagrees with you about this. The issue though is whether we have access to an actual top QB at our draft spot or not. Or do we reach just because we really need a QB.

Its also possible that we draft a QB with that first pick and still have a losing record in 2012. Right, Cam Newton?

I wonder if the team might consider Matt Flynn if they don't like the draft options available to them? He's been Rodgers' backup at GB for a couple years, only 26 years old and will be a free agent in 2012. We know Snyder can win a FA signing battle when he wants. Use the first pick on offensive line or the best player available to us.

I'm all for Luck but not sure this team can really afford to trade away a bunch of future first round picks no matter how good he is.
We don't need a Backup QB. We already have those that we are forced to use as starters. We need our own Aaron Rogers, not his backup. And we don't need a QB that another team is willing to give us, because if they are willing to do that, the QB isn't much use.

We absolutely must have a QB in the top tier if we are to compete with the top level, and the most likely candidate for being that QB is Andrew Luck. And everyone knows this. That's why he's going to cost an arm and a leg.

The detailed analysis of Luck compares favorably with Peyton Manning in all of the various measurements. Remember, we are not talking about Matt Leinart, or Alex Smith, or Vince Young or even Matt Ryan, or Flacco or Roethlisberger ..... we're talking Manning, Brady, Rogers type of a potential here.

There is no such thing as can't afford him ... the issue is we can't afford to not do everything we can to get him.
Exactly. Rex, Beck, Leinart, Flynn...these aren't starting caliber qbs. There's a reason why they are backups.
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Post by Red_One43 »

Countertrey wrote:Much as last year... I have a feeling that we are all going to be surprised at the time our pick is due...
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Post by Red_One43 »

Redskin in Canada wrote:Matt Flynn just MIGHT be our starter next year.

You heard it here, folks.

ALBEIT, all of my Hognostications are going to hell this year. :roll:
Matt has looked good in his appearances, but Caleb looked Haine looked very good against the Packers in the NFC championship game. As the full time starter he has looked horrible in the same offense.

Since Brees is surely going to stay in NO, that leaves Flynn as probably the most desirable vet FA on the market. But when
I see Whitehurst on that list, I think of how he was supposed to be a strong potential starter.

To work it's got to be the right fit. What do you see that makes you think that he would fit with Shanny?

Here's the FA QB's:

Richard Bartel – ARI (R)
Chris Redman ATL
Jake Delhomme - CLE
Kyle Orton - DEN
Brady Quinn – DEN
Shaun Hill - DET
Matt Flynn – GB
Tyler Palko – KC (R)
Chad Henne – MIA
Brian Hoyer – NE (R)
Chase Daniel – NO (R)
Drew Brees – NO
Sage Rosenfels - NYG
Mark Brunell – NYJ
Kevin O’Connell – NYJ (R)
Jason Campbell - OAK
Charlie Batch – PIT
Byron Leftwich – PIT
Charlie Whitehurst – SEA
David Carr – SF
A.J. Feeley - STL
Josh Johnson – TB
Vince Young – PHI
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Post by welch »

If the right QB is not available, then get a good player.

And remember that often "the right QB" falls flat. Go through all teams' 1st round picks for, say, the last 15 or 20 years and see how many 1st round QBs made good.
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Post by HEROHAMO »

We need a QB in a major way.

There arent going to be good prospects like this for a while. Look we wont have an oppurtunity like this again for a long while. Who comes out next year? Just Matt Barkley who in my opinion is not as good as RG3 or Luck.
Peyton Manning may also be had for the right price.


So for me there are three options. Since its highly likely that Indy will get the first pick and take Luck. I am looking to trade up and take RG3. Our best hopes are the Rams end up with the second pick. If the Vikings end up with the second pick I am almost certain they take RG3 even with Ponder already there. So if Rams are the second pick I make a reasonable offer to them for the second pick.

If all the above mentioned does not happen. Well I make an effort to aquire Peyton Manning. Conditional on him passing a through examination and physical. Manning if aquired would be a two three year solution. But put it this way Manning would almost automatically make us SuperBowl contenders. Seriously think about that. Peyton Manning is already proven compared to rolling the dice with draft picks.

So Peyton Manning would not be a long term solution but we have a shot at the Lombardi for at least two to three years if he stays healthy.

So I think its highly likely we will come away with a QB some time soon. Remember we gave up a second round pick to get Mcnabb not too long ago. What do you think Shanny would give for Manning? Its all very real believe me it is.

I am almost certain we come away with a new QB this upcoming year.

My first choice is RG3. My second choice is Manning. Based on my opinion that Luck is almost certainly a Colt. Even then I would still take RG3 over Luck. I like Griff that much.
Sean Taylor starting free safety Heavens team!

21 Forever

"The show must go on."
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