FIRE Kyle Shannahan....

[SkinsJock]

I'm not for firing anyone - I just want Kyle to do a better job as OC


I used to think that Mike would do anything to win - now I'm worried that he'll let Kyle keep doing what he's doing

Kyle doesn't need to go anywhere - he just needs to use the players he's got to their best abilities

[RayNAustin]

Countertrey wrote:

Kyle says "I don't change". That's a problem, whether you wish to admit it, or not... Seems that he is more intent on being one of the cool kids (by having a wide open passing game) than on giving himself the best shot at winning games with what he currently has. I don't say this based upon just the Jets game... but on what I have seen in virtually all of our losses. Kyle wants to pass, and sees the run as only a means of enhancing the pass. He will never allow it to be a primary weapon... apparently, even when it's the only weapon that can be relied on.

I like Kyle and I don't feel that he should be fired, BUT, I have to admit that CT is right on this one about Kyle not changing. He should have adjusted his philosophy for this game. Don't take my opinion - Here's someone that is an expert on what goes on in the NFL.

I listen to Greg Cosell of NFL Films every Thursday on ESPN 980 (DC Local) at 4:30. He gives the Redskin film extra time just for the hosts of that time slot.

Cosell said that he was very surprised at Kyle trying to throw the ball so much. He said he understands what Kyle is trying to do and maybe Kyle saw something that he felt that he could exploit, but he said that Kyle, does not have the personnel to do what he wants to do. He also felt given the Jets Pass defense, he should not have been passing that ball like that.

I believe that that Kyle is holding Mike back. Like said, I like Kyle. I think that he needs to go his own way. Take a HC job at a DI school. I think he would do fine, because he could recruit the talent that he needs to run his O.

If Kyle stays then we go through more growing pains while we get the personnel for Kyle. That could take two more off seasons.

I'd be interested in hearing what it is you like about him?

His two years as OC in Houston had him 1 game above 500 ... 8-8, and 9-7. So I don't see genius here. This year the Texans are already 9-3.

As far as not having the personnel he needs to do what he wants to do .. I'm telling you that if Tom Brady and the Patriots can't win throwing 70% of the time, it's unlikely that he'll ever have what he needs.

[Red_One43]

Countertrey wrote:

Kyle says "I don't change". That's a problem, whether you wish to admit it, or not... Seems that he is more intent on being one of the cool kids (by having a wide open passing game) than on giving himself the best shot at winning games with what he currently has. I don't say this based upon just the Jets game... but on what I have seen in virtually all of our losses. Kyle wants to pass, and sees the run as only a means of enhancing the pass. He will never allow it to be a primary weapon... apparently, even when it's the only weapon that can be relied on.

I like Kyle and I don't feel that he should be fired, BUT, I have to admit that CT is right on this one about Kyle not changing. He should have adjusted his philosophy for this game. Don't take my opinion - Here's someone that is an expert on what goes on in the NFL.

I listen to Greg Cosell of NFL Films every Thursday on ESPN 980 (DC Local) at 4:30. He gives the Redskin film extra time just for the hosts of that time slot.

Cosell said that he was very surprised at Kyle trying to throw the ball so much. He said he understands what Kyle is trying to do and maybe Kyle saw something that he felt that he could exploit, but he said that Kyle, does not have the personnel to do what he wants to do. He also felt given the Jets Pass defense, he should not have been passing that ball like that.

I believe that that Kyle is holding Mike back. Like said, I like Kyle. I think that he needs to go his own way. Take a HC job at a DI school. I think he would do fine, because he could recruit the talent that he needs to run his O.

If Kyle stays then we go through more growing pains while we get the personnel for Kyle. That could take two more off seasons.

I'd be interested in hearing what it is you like about him?

His two years as OC in Houston had him 1 game above 500 ... 8-8, and 9-7. So I don't see genius here. This year the Texans are already 9-3.

As far as not having the personnel he needs to do what he wants to do .. I'm telling you that if Tom Brady and the Patriots can't win throwing 70% of the time, it's unlikely that he'll ever have what he needs.

The whole story needs to be told when you look at the Texan's record during Kyle's days and compare it to now. That story includes O and D.

Here's the Texan offense a year after Kyle (2010). 2010 Texan O ranked 3rd and 24.4 points a game. Offense kept pace without Kyle, but the D was 30th (right in front of us) and 26.7 ppg. Texan record 6-10. The way you are stated your point, one could counter by saying that by going 6-10 without Kyle, the Texans teamed dropped off because he left. Of course, I know that is not true. Defense is the key to this story.

This year the Texans have one of the best D coordinators in the game in Wade Phillips. They are ranked 2nd in the NFL and give up 15.8 points a game. Kyle never had that luxury. His defenses ranked, in 2008, 22nd and 24.6 points a game and in 2009, 13th and 24.2 points a game.

Here's some Kyle O stats and how they compare to today's Texans O stats.

Kyle's Os ranked, in 2008 - 3rd and 22.9 points a game and in 2009, 4th and 24.2 points a game. Not bad stats for a novice OC.

This year's Texan O ranks 10th and 25.8 points a game. Texan O remains consistent - still has good weapons. A third team rookie QB can come in and when games so long as he doesn't turn the ball over.

But stats do not tell why I like Kyle:

I listen to Cooley speak raves about Kyle every week and defend him by explaining what is going on. I have also read what Kubiak as said about him while he was the Texan and when he left. Kubiak says that Kyle is very aggressive and will attack whenever he sees a weekness. At times, Kubiak wanted to rein him it, but he gave in to Kyle. Kyle is as strongwilled as his daddy. I like that in an OC, but as you see this philosophy of letting it all hang out doesn't fit our personnel. You can't attack when you don't have the right weapons. Do I dislike Kyle because he can't back off and adjust? No. When he gets his personnel, his philosophy will be intact so he won't regress. I have yet to here a football mind, player (except Donovan and look where he is ), analyst or coach say that Kyle doesn't know what he is doing. He knows what he is doing. It just doesn't fit his personnel. He is young and will learn that the scheme isn't everything, but then again, he is a Shanahan. He got spoiled in Houston. If we don't get him some Houston type weapons and if he continues to refuse to adjust, we will have some tough times ahead. When I say get personnel, I am talking about depth as well as starters.

[Countertrey]

I don't need to win more games to be satisfied with Kyle. I'm fully aware that, at best, this was a 500 team this year...

I have a problem with refusing to use the effective tools that you have at hand... because you don't think it's cool. That's pretty much it.

I'm also sure that... when he has the talent that he wants, he will have an effective offense... but

what happens when that talent is injured, changing the talent mix available? Is Kyle going to continue to insist on his system, no matter what?

A real coach has to adjust his game.

[RayNAustin]

Countertrey wrote:
I like Kyle and I don't feel that he should be fired, BUT, I have to admit that CT is right on this one about Kyle not changing. He should have adjusted his philosophy for this game. Don't take my opinion - Here's someone that is an expert on what goes on in the NFL.

I listen to Greg Cosell of NFL Films every Thursday on ESPN 980 (DC Local) at 4:30. He gives the Redskin film extra time just for the hosts of that time slot.

Cosell said that he was very surprised at Kyle trying to throw the ball so much. He said he understands what Kyle is trying to do and maybe Kyle saw something that he felt that he could exploit, but he said that Kyle, does not have the personnel to do what he wants to do. He also felt given the Jets Pass defense, he should not have been passing that ball like that.

I believe that that Kyle is holding Mike back. Like said, I like Kyle. I think that he needs to go his own way. Take a HC job at a DI school. I think he would do fine, because he could recruit the talent that he needs to run his O.

If Kyle stays then we go through more growing pains while we get the personnel for Kyle. That could take two more off seasons.

I'd be interested in hearing what it is you like about him?

His two years as OC in Houston had him 1 game above 500 ... 8-8, and 9-7. So I don't see genius here. This year the Texans are already 9-3.

As far as not having the personnel he needs to do what he wants to do .. I'm telling you that if Tom Brady and the Patriots can't win throwing 70% of the time, it's unlikely that he'll ever have what he needs.

The whole story needs to be told when you look at the Texan's record during Kyle's days and compare it to now. That story includes O and D.

Here's the Texan offense a year after Kyle (2010). 2010 Texan O ranked 3rd and 24.4 points a game. Offense kept pace without Kyle, but the D was 30th (right in front of us) and 26.7 ppg. Texan record 6-10. The way you are stated your point, one could counter by saying that by going 6-10 without Kyle, the Texans teamed dropped off because he left. Of course, I know that is not true. Defense is the key to this story.

This year the Texans have one of the best D coordinators in the game in Wade Phillips. They are ranked 2nd in the NFL and give up 15.8 points a game. Kyle never had that luxury. His defenses ranked, in 2008, 22nd and 24.6 points a game and in 2009, 13th and 24.2 points a game.

Here's some Kyle O stats and how they compare to today's Texans O stats.

Kyle's Os ranked, in 2008 - 3rd and 22.9 points a game and in 2009, 4th and 24.2 points a game. Not bad stats for a novice OC.

This year's Texan O ranks 10th and 25.8 points a game. Texan O remains consistent - still has good weapons. A third team rookie QB can come in and when games so long as he doesn't turn the ball over.

But stats do not tell why I like Kyle:

I listen to Cooley speak raves about Kyle every week and defend him by explaining what is going on. I have also read what Kubiak as said about him while he was the Texan and when he left. Kubiak says that Kyle is very aggressive and will attack whenever he sees a weekness. At times, Kubiak wanted to rein him it, but he gave in to Kyle. Kyle is as strongwilled as his daddy. I like that in an OC, but as you see this philosophy of letting it all hang out doesn't fit our personnel. You can't attack when you don't have the right weapons. Do I dislike Kyle because he can't back off and adjust? No. When he gets his personnel, his philosophy will be intact so he won't regress. I have yet to here a football mind, player (except Donovan and look where he is ), analyst or coach say that Kyle doesn't know what he is doing. He knows what he is doing. It just doesn't fit his personnel. He is young and will learn that the scheme isn't everything, but then again, he is a Shanahan. He got spoiled in Houston. If we don't get him some Houston type weapons and if he continues to refuse to adjust, we will have some tough times ahead. When I say get personnel, I am talking about depth as well as starters.

That's funny. The reasons you like him are the exact reasons I don't. Strong willed is one way of describing stubborn and inflexible ... things I don't consider positive traits, and may explain his refusal to alter his approach when the situation is begging for it. That My-Way-Mike attitude might work for the old man with a couple of Super Bowl rings and 25 years of experience, but not with a guy who's OC experience you can count on one hand, running an offense that can't run or pass or score effectively. That requires a little more humbleness, and an attitude that is not so determined to force a square peg into a round hole.

I mean, this isn't the Kyle Redskins, this is the Washington Redskins, and though I really cannot praise or criticize what he did in Houston ... I've seen what he's done here, and it's been poor to awful. And like I've already said, nobody wins throwing 70% of the time, not even Brady and the Pats, so it's a sure failure with the people we have. And those people (Grossman and Beck) were Kyle's choices ... which magnifies the issues I have with Kyle.

Cooley's comments I would take with a grain of salt, I mean, what's he gonna say .. he sucks? Hell, Cooley is probably wondering if and when the axe falls on him.

But since my name is not Dan, what I think doesn't mean squat. We'll just have to wait and see, and hope for the best.

[The Hogster]

I don't need to win more games to be satisfied with Kyle. I'm fully aware that, at best, this was a 500 team this year...

I have a problem with refusing to use the effective tools that you have at hand... because you don't think it's cool. That's pretty much it.

I'm also sure that... when he has the talent that he wants, he will have an effective offense... but

what happens when that talent is injured, changing the talent mix available? Is Kyle going to continue to insist on his system, no matter what?

A real coach has to adjust his game.

+1

Case in point. John Fox. It was no secret he didn't like Tebow. He was 4th string at one point early this year. Instead of forcing Tebow to play like Orton, he's adjusted.

No we don't need to run the Wing T, or Option game. But, Kyle has got to stop trotting out the same plays when half of the offense has been changed due to injury and/or weed toking. And, espeicially when your philosophy is to pass-first and your QB is giving the ball away more than he's scoring.

[StorminMormon86]

But, Kyle has got to stop trotting out the same plays when half of the offense has been changed due to injury and/or weed toking. And, espeicially when your philosophy is to pass-first and your QB is giving the ball away more than he's scoring.

+1

There have been minimum to zero adjustments made in the playcalling all year long. That is unacceptable.

[GoSkins]

Bring in Manning. Kyle will take a back seat.

[StorminMormon86]

Bring in Manning. Kyle will take a back seat.

That's really the only real upside in bringing in Manning, IMO. We don't know how injured he really is, he could have a career ending injury after his first snap as a Redskin. And this is all pure speculation anyway becuase no one is even sure if Manning is going to leave the Colts anyway. There is the possibility that Indy passes on Luck.

[langleyparkjoe]

So this is what life is like in "Hog Wash"? Paragraphs of information at a time? That's it, I'm going back to "Smack", we only type a couple lines at a time.. you guys gave me a headache.

[The Hogster]

Bring in Manning. Kyle will take a back seat.

Peyton Manning is not the kind of player you can just "bring in." He is the power behind the Manning Machine. He will dictate where he goes if he goes anywhere. And, I don't think he's going to go to the "highest bidder."

Manning is one of the few NFL Players that has achieved International Icon status. He doesn't need a few extra million dollars. I expect him to wind up either (i) in Indy, (ii) with the NY Jets, or (iii) retired.

Recall how Archie forced San Diego's hand to send him to the NY Giants? That was on Draft Day for his little brother who hadn't even played in the NFL yet. Imagine the immense influence that a healthy Peyton Manning would have when he decides on his future. I don't think the Redskins are anywhere near his thought process. The Manning's are marketing geniuses.

[Red_One43]

I kinda see this scenario like Joe Gibbs and Al Saunders (Mike and Kyle). Joe was clearly nervous about turning over the reins to Al (Mike to Kyle). It caused amateurish behavior in clock and timeout managment (Mike has inexplicably looked like an amateur on the sidelines). It caused conflicts with personnel decision - Clinton Portis, Todd Collins (Donovan, Rex, Beck). Joe would rant this isn't "Redskin Football!" Well Joe, you hired the guy (Mike rein in your son)! Joe finally took over play calling in the red zone (Mike ain't going there). The team had no identity (this does not look like the same team that won the first two games - not talking about victories - they played flawlessy - few penalties). Joe Gibbs' 2006 Skins were lost and finished 5 - 11 that year (6-10; 4-8 ). The next year, with a QB who knew the offense and wasn't a TO machine - the O came to life and won 4 straight games to make the play-offs (Will we have a bonafide QB next year who knows the O?)

This definitely isn't "Mike Shanahan" football. Unlike Joe, Mike is keeping a little more quiet about the play calling. Mike seems to make comments that show that he is a bit frustrated:

We will get that running game back, I promise you,” Shanahan said Thursday. “I’ve been doing it over 20 years, and that’s our trademark.”

A part of me wants Kyle to go so we can have that Mike Shanahan running game and Mike can do his thing, but another part of me feels that since Kyle is going to be here, all is not lost when he has a QB, some receivers and a stronger O line we'll see the O fly. We saw glimpses of it in the opening game.

The Skins went into the offseason last year with a lot of holes to fill for starters and depth. They filled some, but everyone knew that they had a lot more to go. There is no reason to believe that Shanny and Allen won't be heavy players in the off season this year and bring in some offensive talent this year.

This movie isn't over yet and it have been a while since any similar movie had an offseason like this one - showing restraint with the cash and drafting well. The season is lost but there is great anticipation with the next offseason - a traditional one.


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