the Lichtensteiger effect

armadilloskin · Post by **armadilloskin** » Mon Nov 14, 2011 9:46 am

i didn't think much of the guy last year, but the offensive productivity has declined significantly since lichtensteiger's injury this season. the result has been a constantly shuffled line that is unable to get into any sort of groove. they sputter and show flashes, but nothing consistent. there are plenty of other areas of concern, but this should be priority #1.

restating, rehashing..... the skins are in desperate need of oline depth.

Cappster · Post by **Cappster** » Mon Nov 14, 2011 10:56 am

I disagree that O-Line is #1 priority. We need a top tier quarterback to be successful in the league. The only way we can get one is through the draft so QB is our #1 priority. O-Line is not very good either, but without a stud under center we are doomed to the doldrums of the league until we get a good QB.

armadilloskin · Post by **armadilloskin** » Mon Nov 14, 2011 11:20 am

agreed.
i should say, the oline needs to get the most looks this draft.

Cappster · Post by **Cappster** » Mon Nov 14, 2011 12:04 pm

I won't argue against taking O-Line in the subsequent rounds after drafting the guy who hopefully will be our franchise QB.

frankcal20 · Post by **frankcal20** » Mon Nov 14, 2011 12:11 pm

Wasn't Andy Dalton a 2nd Round QB? They have a much better oline now and put in a winning QB who doesn't have all the measurables but is a winner and has the supporting cast.

I'd go best Olineman available and get a QB in the 2nd if there's a guy we like there more than the 1st round rated guy.

SkinsJock · Post by **SkinsJock** » Mon Nov 14, 2011 12:46 pm

We're taking the best QB we can get with the first pick we have - GUARANTEED

we have many issues - we'll need to get VERY lucky with our picks and the free agent market

frankcal20 · Post by **frankcal20** » Mon Nov 14, 2011 12:49 pm

SkinsJock wrote:We're taking the best QB we can get with the first pick we have - GUARANTEED

we have many issues - we'll need to get VERY lucky with our picks and the free agent market

Let me pose this question to you. If there is a "can't miss tackle" vs a "late 1st, early 2nd round rated QB" you think they're going to take the QB early in the 1st round? I would hope not and would be pissed.

SkinsJock · Post by **SkinsJock** » Mon Nov 14, 2011 12:50 pm

I'm sure that Mike was hoping that either Grossman or Beck could be here next season

at this time, that does not look like happening which is really not helpful either

frankcal20 · Post by **frankcal20** » Mon Nov 14, 2011 12:53 pm

SkinsJock wrote:I'm sure that Mike was hoping that either Grossman or Beck could be here next season

at this time, that does not look like happening which is really not helpful either

I honestly don't think he thought that. That's a perfect reason that Rex only got a one year contract. If Mike wanted Rex for longer, he would have signed him to a longer contract.

The pool of QBs available in FA this year was terrible. All of them suck. I honestly don't think that Mike felt that there was a player in the draft this year that would've allowed us to be competitive going into the season. Keep in mind we only had a few weeks of training camp and while Dalton is having a good season, most rookie QB's are not even playing.

riggofan · Post by **riggofan** » Mon Nov 14, 2011 1:37 pm

Cappster wrote:I disagree that O-Line is #1 priority. We need a top tier quarterback to be successful in the league. The only way we can get one is through the draft so QB is our #1 priority. O-Line is not very good either, but without a stud under center we are doomed to the doldrums of the league until we get a good QB.

You're both pretty much right. We just have to make sure we're not reaching with that first pick. We can't afford to miss.

PAPDOG67 · Post by **PAPDOG67** » Mon Nov 14, 2011 2:40 pm

frankcal20 wrote:
SkinsJock wrote:I'm sure that Mike was hoping that either Grossman or Beck could be here next season

at this time, that does not look like happening which is really not helpful either
I honestly don't think he thought that. That's a perfect reason that Rex only got a one year contract. If Mike wanted Rex for longer, he would have signed him to a longer contract.

The pool of QBs available in FA this year was terrible. All of them suck. I honestly don't think that Mike felt that there was a player in the draft this year that would've allowed us to be competitive going into the season. Keep in mind we only had a few weeks of training camp and while Dalton is having a good season, most rookie QB's are not even playing.

Frank, Newton, Ponder, Gabbert, and Dalton are all playing and have been for at least a few weeks now.

The Hogster · Post by **The Hogster** » Mon Nov 14, 2011 2:47 pm

PAPDOG67 wrote:
frankcal20 wrote:
SkinsJock wrote:I'm sure that Mike was hoping that either Grossman or Beck could be here next season

at this time, that does not look like happening which is really not helpful either
I honestly don't think he thought that. That's a perfect reason that Rex only got a one year contract. If Mike wanted Rex for longer, he would have signed him to a longer contract.

The pool of QBs available in FA this year was terrible. All of them suck. I honestly don't think that Mike felt that there was a player in the draft this year that would've allowed us to be competitive going into the season. Keep in mind we only had a few weeks of training camp and while Dalton is having a good season, most rookie QB's are not even playing.
Frank, Newton, Ponder, Gabbert, and Dalton are all playing and have been for at least a few weeks now.

Newton, Ponder, Dalton, and Gabbert are not only playing. But, they're playing better than both of our veteran QBs. It's downright nauseating. Even Ryan Mallet looked good in the preseason. Better than our guys. I'd rather have brought in Mark Bulger than played this "I have faith in Grossman and Beck crap."

Chris Luva Luva · Post by **Chris Luva Luva** » Mon Nov 14, 2011 2:52 pm

The Hogster wrote: I'd rather have brought in Mark Bulger than played this "I have faith in Grossman and Beck crap."

Bulger is still awesome. He destroyed us in preseason. lol

frankcal20 · Post by **frankcal20** » Mon Nov 14, 2011 2:54 pm

The Hogster wrote:
PAPDOG67 wrote:
frankcal20 wrote: I honestly don't think he thought that. That's a perfect reason that Rex only got a one year contract. If Mike wanted Rex for longer, he would have signed him to a longer contract.

The pool of QBs available in FA this year was terrible. All of them suck. I honestly don't think that Mike felt that there was a player in the draft this year that would've allowed us to be competitive going into the season. Keep in mind we only had a few weeks of training camp and while Dalton is having a good season, most rookie QB's are not even playing.
Frank, Newton, Ponder, Gabbert, and Dalton are all playing and have been for at least a few weeks now.
Newton, Ponder, Dalton, and Gabbert are not only playing. But, they're playing better than both of our veteran QBs. It's downright nauseating. Even Ryan Mallet looked good in the preseason. Better than our guys. I'd rather have brought in Mark Bulger than played this "I have faith in Grossman and Beck crap."

:evil:

Total fail on my part. I know that Dalton & Newton are playing but totally forgot about Ponder (who was my QB I wanted) and Gabbert. One could say that Gabbert is not playing well at all. Ponder is limited due to the team he plays for. Newton is putting up stats but played like CRAP yesterday and Dalton is the only guy who is doing his thing.

PAPDOG67 · Post by **PAPDOG67** » Mon Nov 14, 2011 3:08 pm

No biggie Frank, I know you're usually on top of things, and like you said, Gabbert is easy to forget about because he plays on, well, the Jags. The only two I woud have wanted in last years draft was either Ponder or Dalton, but I'm not totally bumed we didn't get one of them. I will be extremely pissed if Barkley is there for us in April and we pass. I haven't seen Griffin III play just yet, but from what I'm hearing we would be happy with him. I wouldn't mind Weeden in the 2nd round if we go O-line in the first, but he is substantially older. I'll take any one of those 3.

skinsfan#33 · Post by **skinsfan#33** » Mon Nov 14, 2011 3:14 pm

frankcal20 wrote:
SkinsJock wrote:I'm sure that Mike was hoping that either Grossman or Beck could be here next season

at this time, that does not look like happening which is really not helpful either
I honestly don't think he thought that. That's a perfect reason that Rex only got a one year contract. If Mike wanted Rex for longer, he would have signed him to a longer contract.

The pool of QBs available in FA this year was terrible. All of them suck. I honestly don't think that Mike felt that there was a player in the draft this year that would've allowed us to be competitive going into the season. Keep in mind we only had a few weeks of training camp and while Dalton is having a good season, most rookie QB's are not even playing.

Sorry Frank, but the Skins tried to sign Rex to a multi-year deal. He was offered a long term deal, but chose to sign a one year deal, hoping he would improve his value later. Boy that was a mistake!

Dalton was the 35th pick in the draft, we had the 41st pick (selected Jarvis Jenkins). Are you suggesting that we should have traded up ahead of Cincy or are you saying we should have reached for him on the first and drafted him instead of Kerrigan?

We need to draft a QB that they think can play. Lets assume they liked Dalton and gambled that he would be there at 41, so if you think you have a QB that can bed a franchise guy, do you draft him in the first or gamble he will slip to our pick in the
second.

You could always move around if you think you need to to avoid losing a player or to get better value, but who knows, we may have tried to move up ahead of Cincy to get Dalton but couldn't pull it off.

I say you tasked the best QB available in the first. Then draft ol the next 2 or 3 rounds. Not just one ol, but as many a possible. Realistically we need a RT (or LT and move TW to his natural position at RT), a RG, and a LG. That would allow us to let Brown go and move Lichtensteiger and Chester to the bench.

PAPDOG67 · Post by **PAPDOG67** » Mon Nov 14, 2011 3:33 pm

Lichtenstiger was actually playing well until he went down. He was actually our 2nd best lineman. hopefully he comes back fully healthy next year. I am all for drafting a QB first and then 2, 3, or even 4 O-lineman in a row. I would like to replace the C, RG, and RT. I don't know if that's wise all in one season, but we definitely need at least 2 new guys in there assuming Lichtenstiger will be back.

skinsfan#33 · Post by **skinsfan#33** » Mon Nov 14, 2011 4:31 pm

[quote="PAPDOG67"]Lichtenstiger was actually playing well until he went down. He was actually our 2nd best lineman. hopefully he comes back fully healthy next year. I am all for drafting a QB first and then 2, 3, or even 4 O-lineman in a row. I would like to replace the C, RG, and RT. I don't know if that's wise all in one season, but we definitely need at least 2 new guys in there assuming Lichtenstiger will be back.[/quote]

I guess we will disagree a bit on Lichtensteiger. He was playing well, but he just isn't big enough to play guard in the NFCE. There were times when he was just physically dominated sbs there is nothing he can do about it. I mean he is smaller than Bostic was back in the day.

I would love it if he was our first guy off the bench for an interior lineman spot.

I think Will Mont can develop into a good C,
but of there of an elite C there in the 2nd
round in would be OK with it.

I think our needs at OL are in this order:
RT*
RG
LG

But all of these are after we address the QB spot. If for some reason we are
otut of luck in the first round wrt a QB and there is a stud LT then I say draft
him, but you better damn sure get a QB before the first 2nd round QB comes of the board. We are on such a bad way when it comes to the QB spot that we may have to take a guy way earlier than we should.

PAPDOG67 · Post by **PAPDOG67** » Mon Nov 14, 2011 6:42 pm

I actually feel about Monty, how you feel about Lichtenstiger. I feel he gets dominated to easy by bigger DTs. Either way, we agree that we need at least 2 of the first 3 rounds of picks on OL.

frankcal20 · Post by **frankcal20** » Mon Nov 14, 2011 6:54 pm

I guess my whole point is that you don't reach for a guy you're not sold on him being a franchise guy. I have no problem with us moving up to pick up Luck. He seems to have EVERYTHING you're looking for at the QB position. Ready to go day one but with any qb, you've got to protect him or it will be more of the same.

My philosophy is that you build a team from both sides of the line. Once you have that in place, then you get your QB.

emoses14 · Post by **emoses14** » Mon Nov 14, 2011 7:00 pm

frankcal20 wrote:I guess my whole point is that you don't reach for a guy you're not sold on him being a franchise guy. I have no problem with us moving up to pick up Luck. He seems to have EVERYTHING you're looking for at the QB position. Ready to go day one but with any qb, you've got to protect him or it will be more of the same.

My philosophy is that you build a team from both sides of the line. Once you have that in place, then you get your QB.

I agree with you every year in which the qb pool isn't deep (supposedly this one is) AND in which I don't think that the improvement of the team will torpedo our chances of getting that great qb without either reaching or mortgaging the future by giving up draft picks. IN plain english, our draft position this year (be it in round 1 or early in round 2) will be such that it dictates our taking the qb shanny feels is "the one." I honestly don't see this regime going through another draft, getting the hurt players back to healthy, the team with another year of experience and an offseason and having the same or better draft position in the following draft. So, i tend to agree with the QB and OL crowd, except I'd only take 2 OL (RT and a guard, don't care which side. I just think that Chester/Lich. . . will be improved in year 2 in the scheme and the youngster will be a motor guy like Jenkins/Kerrigan that will push the hell out of both of the). NO need to get a DL, because we basically are getting a brand new one back (Jenkins) who singlehandedly will make that line much better. I'd like to get a nice 2 or 3 round CB, too.

welch · Post by **welch** » Mon Nov 14, 2011 8:38 pm

I'll stick with the Joe Gibbs approach: build around the OL and DL.

(You take the immortal Mr Buck-teeth, John Elway. I'll take Doug Williams and let people snicker, as they did, and I'll watch the Redskins score five TDs in a quarter.)

KazooSkinsFan · Post by **KazooSkinsFan** » Tue Nov 15, 2011 12:48 pm

Cappster wrote:I disagree that O-Line is #1 priority. We need a top tier quarterback to be successful in the league. The only way we can get one is through the draft so QB is our #1 priority. O-Line is not very good either, but without a stud under center we are doomed to the doldrums of the league until we get a good QB.

You forget what we learned from Joe Gibbs. O-line is the priority. You can win with an OK QB like Mark Rypien if you give him time to throw. Neither Williams or Theisman were going far without time to throw the ball either. On the other hand, any QB running for their life goes nowhere.

PAPDOG67 · Post by **PAPDOG67** » Tue Nov 15, 2011 1:18 pm

Normally I'd agree with you, but the game has changed. Pitt & GB have won the SB recently with a avg/below avg. O-line. Their QBs were good enough to compensate for that.

Cappster · Post by **Cappster** » Tue Nov 15, 2011 2:26 pm

KazooSkinsFan wrote:
Cappster wrote:I disagree that O-Line is #1 priority. We need a top tier quarterback to be successful in the league. The only way we can get one is through the draft so QB is our #1 priority. O-Line is not very good either, but without a stud under center we are doomed to the doldrums of the league until we get a good QB.
You forget what we learned from Joe Gibbs. O-line is the priority. You can win with an OK QB like Mark Rypien if you give him time to throw. Neither Williams or Theisman were going far without time to throw the ball either. On the other hand, any QB running for their life goes nowhere.

A smart QB who can recognize defensive plays and gets the ball out of his hands can compensate for an average line. The teams that win most consistently in the league have top tier QB's. And PAPDOG67 is correct in his statement. Neither GB or Pitt had stellar O-lines, but QB play was able to compensate for that. I will argue that if we had a top tier QB on our team right now we would have a winning record.

As far as the first Gibbs era...the same philosophy doesn't apply to modern day football. The game has changed and we need a stud at QB.