Any veterinarians out there? Need some advice

DESkins · Post by **DESkins** » Fri Nov 17, 2006 12:58 am

I have a 17 month old Cavalier who was just diagnosed as having an "abnormally small" liver and possible scirrosis (sp?). We've been told that traditional veterinary medicine really can't help him, and are being steered toward the homeopathic medicines. Is there anyone that knows anything about this stuff, and what kind of questions I should ask, aside from the obvious questions about how long he can be kept comfortable? I want to have him around for as long as we can keep him from being in pain, and I certainly don't want to have to put him down before Christmas, although if it is what is best for him, I will do it. Anybody have any experience with homeopathic medicine that can give me an idea of whether or not it is worth even trying?[/img]

ATV · Post by **ATV** » Fri Nov 17, 2006 2:02 am

My wife is a Vet. I'll try asking her for you. I know that she's not big on homeopathic therapies. Also, you have to understand that it can be difficult to diagnose things appropriately via email. But, I'll see if she has any further insight or recommendations. Hopefully I'll have something for you by Friday night.

DESkins · Post by **DESkins** » Fri Nov 17, 2006 10:36 am

Thanks, I appreciate it more than I can ever express.

The diagnosis isn't what I'm looking for, just some idea of whether or not the homeopathic medicine is really an approach that we want to take, as I don't want him to suffer, and it's about to become a real issue.

Chris Luva Luva · Post by **Chris Luva Luva** » Fri Nov 17, 2006 11:06 am

Taz could definately help you out if this thread catches her eye.

N/M, I read vegetarian instead of vet. :oops:

tazlah · Post by **tazlah** » Fri Nov 17, 2006 11:28 am

Nope, taz can't help! But I am sorry you are dealing with this; poor little guy. They become real family members that their pain affects everyone.

There are some good sites and message boards on the internet that can help answer questions re. alt/natural therapies for animals.

Best of luck.

Fios · Post by **Fios** » Fri Nov 17, 2006 11:43 am

Hey man, my girlfriend's mother is a homeopathic healer, she doesn't work with animals but she knows people who do, she is looking into it for me

ATV · Post by **ATV** » Fri Nov 17, 2006 1:55 pm

Here is my wife's reply.....

I would wonder about the diagnosis. I think a porto-systemic shunt, or liver shunt as they are commonly called, is more likely. With a liver shunt, blood vessels which are supposed to take blood from the intestinal tract to be filtered by the liver bypass the liver. Because the liver is not receiving all of the blood it should, it is common for the liver to appear smaller on a radiograph. This is a problem which is seen most commonly in young, small breed dogs and if severe can lead to neurologic symptoms. There are some subtle changes that can be found on a general blood panel that can point toward a shunt such as a low to low normal BUN (blood urea nitrogen) and a lower albumin, but the most telling test is a bile acids test. Bile acids are molecules which help carry things from the intestines to the liver to be processed. With a shunt, a fasting bile acids sample is high and is even higher after a feeding. Commonly this test is done after a 10-12 hour fast. A fasting blood sample is taken then you puppy would be fed. After 1-2 hours another blood sample would be taken. If this comes back high then your puppy likely has a shunt. If that's the case, you'll likely need to go to a specialty clinic or a university. A specialized dye test can be done to try to locate the blood vessel which is by-passing the liver then surgery can be done to tie off that vessel (typically not completely) and force more blood to flow into the liver. Rarely there can be a lot of small blood vessels which by-pass the liver at the cellular level and unfortunately these can't be tied off. It seems that this is not very common, especially in younger dogs. If there is a micor-shunt, there are things that can be done medically to try to control/minimize symptoms such as a low-protein diet and antiobiotics to help reduce bacteria producing by products the liver isn't set up to handle. If your vet hasn't done a bile acid test, I would recommend either asking for one or getting a second opinion.

As for homeopathic medicine, I have seen some situations that can be helped by it, but I have also see some people really led down the wrong path. I even saw a guy once who was paying something like $100/treatment to have flowers placed on his cat's head to "cure" kidney disease. I have also seen a little yorkie who was given a herbal treatment recommeded by a human herbalist, within a day, the dog had every sign of toxicity that the books listed for the particular herb. I would definately recommend persuing other avenues medically first, but if you do go homeopathic, be careful about where you go and what they do. You definately want to avoid the crazy people and you also want to work with someone who has experience with animals, not everything a person takes (such as Tylenol) is safe for dogs and not everything that comes from a plant (such as cocaine) is good for you either.

DESkins · Post by **DESkins** » Fri Nov 17, 2006 2:24 pm

ATV,

Had to edit this before posting, because I was starting to get too long-winded.

Thank you, and your wife, for the information. Unfortunately, the bile acid test was done, and shunts ruled out. We've had the dog to our vet and then a specialist for several tests (this is my 11 year old daughter's puppy, and my baby boy, I needed to know what was going on with him). The consensus is that the problem is primarily a congenital condition where the liver never grew the way it should have, and coupling that with scirrosis has caused him to get sick. It's been an incredibly rapid progression, too.

His primary veterinarian is the doctor who also works with homeopathic remedies, and she suggested it only after determining, in her words, that "conventional medicine can't do anything for him". I'm personally a bit skeptical about the whole idea, having tried homeopathic remedies for migraines, only to find that by following the directions, I gave myself one. But if there's a chance it can help my dog, I'll take it, as long as his quality of life can be improved over what it has now become.

Again, thank you so much for your efforts on my and my dog's behalf. If you like, I'll keep you posted on his progress.

DESkins · Post by **DESkins** » Fri Nov 17, 2006 2:27 pm

And of course, thanks Fios and Taz. If I can ever figure out how to post a picture, I'll put Charlie's pic up in a post.

ATV · Post by **ATV** » Fri Nov 17, 2006 2:40 pm

I'll forward this to her and see if she has anything else to say. You're welcome with the help. We love animals.

Irn-Bru · Post by **Irn-Bru** » Fri Nov 17, 2006 2:59 pm

DESkins wrote:

"And of course, thanks Fios and Taz. If I can ever figure out how to post a picture, I'll put Charlie's pic up in a post."

DESkins, if you can get the picture on a website--your best option being some sort of free storage site--then it's easy to link to it on THN. You'd write:

[img]the picture's url[/img]

DESkins · Post by **DESkins** » Fri Nov 17, 2006 3:01 pm

Thanks. I'll see about doing that tonight when I get home.

1niksder · Post by **1niksder** » Fri Nov 17, 2006 3:05 pm

Irn-Bru wrote:
DESkins, if you can get the picture on a website--your best option being some sort of free storage site--then it's easy to link to it on THN.

Here's a free one

DESkins · Post by **DESkins** » Fri Nov 17, 2006 4:01 pm

Thanks. The first two are from when we first got Charlie, the last is more recent, Charlie is the larger of the two dogs in the picture.

Irn-Bru · Post by **Irn-Bru** » Fri Nov 17, 2006 4:21 pm

Very nice, DESkins. I certainly hope you find something that works for the dog.

1niksder · Post by **1niksder** » Fri Nov 17, 2006 4:42 pm

Irn-Bru wrote:Very nice, DESkins. I certainly hope you find something that works for the dog.

Same here

DESkins · Post by **DESkins** » Sat Nov 18, 2006 5:31 pm

Thanks, folks for your kindness to us in this. Charlie is fine now, he's beyond any further hurt. There's a new little Redskins pup in heaven this afternoon.

Countertrey · Post by **Countertrey** » Sat Nov 18, 2006 7:33 pm

Hoss · Post by **Hoss** » Sat Nov 18, 2006 11:25 pm

DESkins, I am very sorry for your loss. My thoughts go out to you and your family.

DESkins · Post by **DESkins** » Sun Nov 19, 2006 3:02 am

Thanks, folks. We never expected to have to face this so soon, but we gave him the best day that we could, and sent him home surrounded by love.

RIP Charlie 4/3/05 - 11/18/06.

Jake · Post by **Jake** » Sun Nov 19, 2006 3:18 am

Sorry about that DE.

Having a dog myself, I would be devistated if I was in your situation.

RIP Charlie.

Hopefully the Skins will give you something to smile about against Tampa.

ATV · Post by **ATV** » Sun Nov 19, 2006 10:29 pm

I'm sorry there couldn't be more that could be done. Hopefully science will be able to help animals with similar afflictions someday. Poor guy. Death sucks, that's the only thing about death that I've ever been able to figure.

1niksder · Post by **1niksder** » Sun Nov 19, 2006 10:47 pm

RIP Charlie

DESkins · Post by **DESkins** » Mon Nov 20, 2006 2:30 am

Thanks again, folks.

It was a bit rough today, but we learned some information from the breeder today that gave us some peace with the decision.

My daughters have had a hard day today, but I also saw that there was a request on the computer desk to upload over 3 gigs worth of photos onto the computer, all of which involve Charlie, so they won't lack for memories later.

I told them that while they are hurting now, eventually the heartache will be only a dull memory, and the love will be what they remember, along with the good times they had with him. I told them that we will never replace Charlie, because it would be impossible, but that in time they would find another dog that they will love as much, and they will learn that they can love the new dog without feeling that they are somehow being disloyal to Charlie's memory. I told them that the love they have for Charlie will never end, nor will his love for them, and that were he able to express his love in human terms, he would want them to go ahead and share their love again.

Of course they looked at me like I was insane, and burst into tears, but hopefully some of it will eventually make sense to them. I know it will take time, but I look forward to the day when they look at me like I'm insane because they're 11 and 14, and I'm their crazy "dad", who spends his time being "wierd".

Redskin in Canada · Post by **Redskin in Canada** » Tue Nov 21, 2006 7:48 pm

DESkins wrote:I told them that while they are hurting now, eventually the heartache will be only a dull memory, and the love will be what they remember, along with the good times they had with him. I told them that we will never replace Charlie, because it would be impossible, but that in time they would find another dog that they will love as much, and they will learn that they can love the new dog without feeling that they are somehow being disloyal to Charlie's memory. I told them that the love they have for Charlie will never end, nor will his love for them, and that were he able to express his love in human terms, he would want them to go ahead and share their love again.

I wish somebody would say this to my children if I walk away prematurely to another life.

It is a great lesson DE. Difficult to accpt but invaluable for the rest of their lives.

Thanks for sharing man. I can not add a word to that.